Red Arrows to get new aircraft...

[Nige321]

Reds to get new aircraft (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37833311)

Eventually...:D

The Red Arrows aerobatic team will get new planes, Defence Secretary Sir Michael Fallon has confirmed.

The announcement comes as RAF stations in Lincolnshire celebrate 100 years in the county.

There has been some uncertainty in recent years whether the team based at RAF Scampton would be retained.

Sir Michael said the team's current Hawk jets need to be replaced and a decision will be made over the next couple of years.

He said it was too early to say which aircraft would replace the Hawk jets.

[Fareastdriver]

Grob T120TPs. Save the defence budget a load of money. More cash for the civil servants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grob_G_120TP

[Bigbux]

Rumour has it we have found a use for the excess Chinooks gordon Brown ordered.

[622]

So that's where the Air Cadet Vigi's are going! ;)

[Tashengurt]

This is going to be a 'popcorn' thread.

[MPN11]

Well, that certainly raises some interesting questions!

Can 'we' afford 10 shiny new fast-ish jets? And if so, will they be a stand-alone type, or something already in RAF service (which rather narrows the options!)? Or will they be some sort of smallish, cheapish, aerobatic civvy-thing which doesn't really project the RAF image? Or will it be a small number of a current military type, doing loop-the-loop in Diamond Four?

[KiloB]

It would seem to be a safe bet that the replacement will have to be:

1. (At least partially) British manufacture.
2. Exportable.

So that narrows the possibilities to a newer version of the Hawk or early model Typhoons?!?

KB

[NutLoose]

http://images.pistonheads.com/nimg/22308/tn_formation-L.jpg

[Sandy Parts]

I foresee a shiny red fleet of MQ-9 Reapers. Pilots will be allowed to wear red flying suits but Sensor Operators must make do with blue ones. An Admin Sqn Ldr will remain as the virtual AdminO and will also be allowed to wear a red flying suit while sat in their office as long as working on team admin. During 'promotional tours' wives will be allowed to join the pilots and stay in the nearest Travelodge to the cabins.

[hoss183]

Good news, but i was also wondering what model it will be.
I was thinking in these days of austerity why can't the jets be currently used models such as the typhoon? Then they could be dual-role, pressed into service if needed.. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will shoot-down that idea, but i'd be interested to know why not?

[JG54]

Hawk (in any form) seems unlikely, certainly if the industrial (and export) opportunities are a genuine and serious consideration. It's had a damn good run, but it's reached the end of line, developmentally.

Some (UK built?) version of the Northrop Grumman / BAE T-X offering may be a possibility, I imagine. In which case, you'd maybe want to look at replacement of the Hawk 'legacy' & T2 fleet early for commonality (and you're gonna need a damn site more than ten aircraft to keep The Reds going for another forty years).

Shame AT2000 / Mako - HEAT didn't result in metal (composite, actually - or so I assume) being cut, though.

Please, please - just don't let it be some pathetic prop job in the form of the Tucano replacement....

[noflynomore]

Perhaps BAe have something new in the jet trainer line up their sleeves?

[JG54]

I'd imagine that if they had, it would have formed the basis of their original pitch for the T-X requirement, rather than Hawk. Highly unlikely, although in a perfect world, it would be a most pleasing outcome for all.

[langleybaston]

I do hope that, if the job is done, it is done properly, which means high - performance of course.

When I was privy to a certain War Book, the Reds were , I believe, a designated combat reserve?

Why not, so long as a bucket of grey could be sloshed over them and weaponry activated?

Problem solved: Typhoons.

Where do I sign?

[andytug]

That would be some noise in a display..... one with full burner on already sets off every car alarm in a mile radius, so ten of them....

[Pontius Navigator]

Why 10?

Diamond 4 more affordable :)

[GeeRam]

That would be some noise in a display..... one with full burner on already sets off every car alarm in a mile radius, so ten of them....

10....?

How about 22 of them and paint them black :E

[hoodie]

Can 'we' afford 10 shiny new fast-ish jets?

"Jets", you say. Can we be sure about that? :suspect:

[Pontius Navigator]

Daily Wail reports that China has offered to make copies of Halk trainer four Red Allows.

[MPN11]

Thanks, PN :)

Interesting problem, innit!!

[zero1]

How about Red Drones, no need for the aircrew to leave the bar...

[Roland Pulfrew]

Haven't we just ordered 9 P-8s..........:E

[Admin_Guru]

The fact that the statement is lacking the whole story gives much cause for concern.


Were it "Red Arrows to get Hawk T2" in 2018 just in time for the RAF Centenary year I could believe it and await the public outcry from some about the plethora of things that would benefit from taxpayers money.


Todays statement is akin to throwing a brick in a pond. Govt now stand back and see how many ripples reach the shore based upon speculation to test the water and see if 'new aircraft' need to be downgraded to recycled aircraft such as Tucano - or the whole thing filed under "J for joke".


For sure MFTS/Ascent could be a stick in the spokes as politics presently play its hand with Grob Tutor deployments away from base and the need for ground support.


The more I think about it, the more I think today is a scoping exercise for public reaction. The Grannies & Spotters will love it; a huge swathe of society will begrudge it. It needs to be done and dusted well outside any potential election campaign for it is destined to be contentious.

[MPN11]

From the first post's link:

Amendment: This story was changed on November 1 to reflect the defence secretary's comments that the Red Arrows fleet would be reviewed rather than imminently replaced.

Ahhh, that's a different story altogether.

[langleybaston]

Better not done at all than badly surely?

[KPax]

Lots of aircraft sitting in a certain Shropshire airbase.

[Onceapilot]

Probably best if they get some early Typhoons, and are declared as a UK AD Sqn, with PR Aero's as a "secondary" (primary!) task! :cool:

OAP

[MPN11]

Do we have a dozen spare Typhoons with enough airframe life to cope with the Reds' exuberant flying?

Anyway, it's now another 'Review", just like the LTC has had them as a line item since the 80s.

[The Oberon]

Red Bull Arrows ??

[NWSRG]

There's bound to be a sensible answer to this question, but what exactly can a T1 Hawk do that a T2 cannot?

[Finningley Boy]

The most unradical solution would be Hawk T2s. If we're getting an extra 2 Typhoon Sqns dedicated to air defence, and given the current political climate, we may expect possibly to see more T2s anyway from which perhaps enough to form a 5 or 7 ship for example. Such a move would be reasonable and en:8sure the team live on for a fair few years yet!

However, if the thinking is to use anything lighter would certainly miss the point of the Red Arrows altogether.

Interesting though how in these more abundant and resourceful times the RAF have no obvious successor to a display team mount that has been on the go for 40 years or so. :hmm:

FB:)

[JFZ90]

Cost per flying hour would be a bit of an issue for Typhoon, sadly.

Typhoon - £70-90k/hour a few years back.
Hawk T1 (Red Arrows) - £6k/hour

Hard to see how the answer shouldn't be a Hawk T2. Being UK built is part of the overall media/PR package.

I don't think many in the public really care about the marginal cost of running the RAFAT.

And as for numbers - it has to be nine if for no other reason that the Patrouille de France have eight aircraft :)

[TEEEJ]

Could the replacement be the Textron AirLand Scorpion?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textron_AirLand_Scorpion

An April Fool this year. Scorpion photo shopped in Reds scheme.

STOP PRESS! Red Arrows Hawk Replacement Announced (http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=72018)

[Bigbux]

I predicted the purchase of a fleet of Kawasaki P1s, so in the same vein of unflappable self-delusion, I offer you:

Boeing: Boeing T-X Sees the Light (http://www.boeing.com/features/2016/09/tx-rollout-09-16.page)

Job's a good un.

[XR219]

Maybe HAL will offer a good deal on some Hawk 132s? The IAF did after all buy 20 for its own aerobatic team recently...

Alternatively, how many Alpha Jets do QQ have...?

[airborne_artist]

The Red Arrows aerobatic team will get new planes

Plenty here (http://www.screwfix.com/c/tools/wood-planes/cat6990006) to choose from. Reckon they'd fit the budget. Not much to look at mind. :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

http://www.aero-news.net/images/content/general/2016/April-1-Reapers-0416a.jpg

Simples...

[unmanned_droid]

When do the Red Arrows become one of the largest squadrons in the RAF?

Following on from LBs comment about the Red Arrows being declared a reserve combat squadron....

As a combat squadron (I hesitate to say AD or GA given the mix of crew backgrounds) would the Red Arrows aircrew offer one of the toughest challenges out there to an enemy? or would they be not at their best combat wise due to the aeros practice?

I know this is a rather whimsical question, but they've apparently been chosen as the best of the best (cue volleyball scene...).

Sorry, in a flippant mood tonight.

[Heathrow Harry]

buy Hawks to keep the production line running......

[Parson]

I would imagine the T1s will soldier on for a while yet. Potentially, could any replacement be linked with new aircraft for 100 and &
736NAS? Assuming those units have a long term future.

[Pontius Navigator]

UO, TIC, the enemy could get 9 with one bang, if that missed try for par 2 with the synchro pair. That slow loop off the top, perfect for no deflection or unguided rockets.

OTOH, as they always come from behind you they may get the enemy first and away provided no Bader rolls afterwards.

[gr4techie]

Good news, but i was also wondering what model it will be.
I was thinking in these days of austerity why can't the jets be currently used models such as the typhoon? Then they could be dual-role, pressed into service if needed.. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will shoot-down that idea, but i'd be interested to know why not?

Typhoon is incredibly complex, maintenance intensive and requires a lot of support.
I've never worked on 29 Sqn but I imagine it has much more manpower than the Reds and you'll need to employ a thousand Bae guys in the background to have 9 a/c simultaniously serviceable over a season :-)

[Wander00]

French have a very good 4-ship display team using Epsilon aircraft. Anyway, I gather there are some Grob's going spare...........

[Chugalug2]

HH:-
buy Hawks to keep the production line running......

The RAF Hawk that killed Flt Lt Cunningham was unairworthy (the Mk10 seat lacked a Safety Case for a start...). Is the RAF Hawk fleet now airworthy? The MAA hasn't said so. The Nimrod fleet was unairworthy and grounded, and a future replacement fleet scrapped. Is the Hawk following the same path as Nimrod?

[sandiego89]

I have always been amazed at the length of the Reds display season, and the number of venues they fly at. They seem to do many more shows and flyovers than most teams, over a very long season. Oversaturation? Does every event really need the Reds?


Could a "part time" team with instructor pilots even be considered? Yes I get that team aerobatics requires a great deal of attention and training, but if the team focused on a much shorter season, say training for three months, then a dedicated 3 month summer display season could it be done? This would allow the other 6 months for leave, having the team and maintainers serve as instructors etc., and do the occasional formation practice over the winter.


Non starter?

[The Nip]

With another thread running regarding Pilot retention, is a post on the Reds deemed a tour worthy of staying in for?

Or can future Pilot numbers justify having a display team?

[hoss183]

Our friends at the Register, are running a poll.
What should the Red Arrows' new aircraft be? ? The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/11/02/red_arrows_new_aircraft_poll/)

[Ogre]

buy Hawks to keep the production line running......

Can some one remind me where the Hawk production line is these days? Brough has a lot smaller footprint than it used to, so do they still build aircraft there?

[hoss183]

Broughton is just commercial planes now i think, but its been a while since i was there (A380 production line installation).
My memory is a bit hazy on which site i was doing which job at, Warton or Broughton, typhoon line replaced Tornado line, but i dont remember seeing Hawk at either site.
Edit: Quick internet search seem to suggest Hawk is at Warton ans still knocking them out in 2014.

[Bob Viking]

This quote from the RAF internet site explains it:

The Hawk T2 will be built at the BAE Systems site in Brough on Humberside and assembled at their Warton facility.

I had the pleasure of collecting a few brand new Hawk T2s from Warton a few years back. Flying in a jet where the paint in the cockpit is not chipped and the straps are not frayed was a rare luxury. It even had a pseudo new car smell to it.

BV

[andytug]

Think there are Hawks at Warton as seen a couple circling round the estuary yesterday as they do when testing them I think (get same regularly with Typhoons).

[andrewn]

Reading this thread I feel obliged to clear up a few things...

1. Brough and Broughton are totally different sites. Brough is still part of BAE Systems and has been producing parts and, in the case of some of the RAF T2's, whole aircraft which have then done a one way flight to the other BAE Systems factory at Warton for flight tests, etc
2. Broughton was, many years ago, a BAE site but is now Airbus owned and produces wings for the airbus fleet, plus some GA tenants and some remnants of what was Raytheon/Hawker Beechcraft, which at least until recently were involved in support of the RAF's Sentinel and Shadow ISTAR fleets
3. Hawk is indeed still in production with new build aircraft for the Saudis currently undergoing flight test at Warton. Might be one other small order on the books but nothing else bar the Indians (who have their own line in India)

A small RAF order for additional T2's seems sensible in many ways as it both provides a few replacements for the T1's (which cant go on forever) and throws a temporary lifeline to military aircraft manufacturing in the UK.

Interesting to see what does happen next after the swift backtracking of the "confirmed" order.

[SASless]

As the size of the RAF drops....in time the Reds will be the RAF.

[melmothtw]

Size of the RAF is actually going to go up in the coming years, as new Tranche 3 Typhoons, F-35s, A400Ms, P-8s, Protector UAVs, Chinooks, and a new Shadow are introduced, and Tranche 1 Typhoons, E-3s, Sentinels, and C-130Js retained.

[Davef68]

Maybe what's needed is a slightly down-spec'd T2, without all the weapons simulation gubbins and other operational training stuff?

Than again, you would need to have enough to cover attrition, and the basic Hawk design is getting long in the tooth anyway - maybe BAE need a new design to compete with the US TX contenders, AA M346 etc - on a 2030 OOS timescale, they might just be able to do that!


Whilst on the subject of the M346, it's interesting that the Italians are replacing the Frecce MB339s with M345s instead of M346s

[Union Jack]

As the size of the RAF drops....in time the Reds will be the RAF. - SASless

Surely not the Red Air Force....?:hmm:

Jack

[chopper2004]

French have a very good 4-ship display team using Epsilon aircraft. Anyway, I gather there are some Grob's going spare...........
Pilatus are supposedly selling the PC-21 to the French

T2 logically should be the next mount for the Reds ..........but I gather there are not a lot of airframes spare...

cheers

[Fonsini]

Ten brand new Typhoon Tranche 3s would be very expensive, very maintenance intensive, very noisy, and absolutely wonderful. A nice plus 10 on the available combat aircraft inventory wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Of course you could always put up 10 Chipmunks in deference to the Whitehall budget cutters and rename them the 'Red Pens'.

[Herod]

Put the Gnat back into production?

[Wander00]

Herod - YEAA HO!

[Arclite01]

They should just get on and order 15 - 12 Hawk T2's for Scampton and 3 ready use spares kept at Shawbury.

That should last at least 25 years after which anyone's guess.......................

and no I'm not the biggest fan of BAe but in the post Brexit world we need to start backing our own industry....................

Arc

[Minnie Burner]

Hawk T1a and Trigger's broom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUl6PooveJE

[Finningley Boy]

Put the Gnat back into production?

Oh lets go the whole hog, LIGHTNINGS!:8

FB:)

[DON T]

Do all aircraft have to be of the same type? How about a mixture, but only two types?:)

[Herod]

Oh lets go the whole hog, LIGHTNINGS!

Sorry, you're right. I wasn't thinking big enough.

[Tashengurt]

Or Harriers. Axing them was bonkers.

[galaxy flyer]

The USMC would be happy to sell some well-used F-18s, fair trade after getting the Harriers.

GF

[Ogre]

Oh lets go the whole hog, LIGHTNINGS!Or, as was suggested on another forum, Buccaneers! That way if there is low cloud they still do the display only lower down...

[HP90]

Hawk T1 OSD is scheduled as follows:
. 736 NAS - 2020
. 100 Sqn - 2027
. Red Arrows - 2030

The 736 NAS Hawks will be replaced from 2020 by the ASDOT (Air Support to Defence Operational Training) contract, which will also replace the Cobham FA-20s, and, in time, the 100 Sqn Hawk T1s. ASDOT will be an outsourced contract, with Qinetiq/Thales already having bid with the Textron Scorpion.

So any new Red Arrows A/C won't come until the 2030 timeframe.

However, by 2030 the existing Hawk T2s will be getting a little long in the tooth as lead-in platforms to F-35 and Typhoon, especially since Typhoon is expected to have undergone a cockpit upgrade in line with F-35 by then (including a single large-area display, and HMD to completely replace the HUD). In addition, all the twin-stick Typhoons will likely have been retired by 2030. So sending students solo on F-35/Typhoon, having come straight off of a Hawk T2 that is no longer operationally representative, is not a great idea.

BAe are already working on updated Hawks, which will include a large-screen display (pictured below). Other features such as a HMD, AAR probe, targeting pod, and practice weapons should also be included in order to download more training from the OCUs and better prepare students for the front line.

http://aerosociety.com/Assets/Images/Insight%20Blog/Dubai%20Airshow%202015/Day%203%20pics/Hawk%20T2%20large%20display-web.jpg

So the best option, in my opinion, is for the RAF to order a new batch of Hawk T2s in the mid-2020s to be used for training from 2030 onwards, and give 11-12 or so of the existing 27 Hawk T2s to the Reds (and retire the rest).

[SASless]

For time on the Display Line in front of the Crowd.....there is always the Jaguar!

Throw in a couple of shows in adjoining Counties with a good Motorway between the two and they could do two shows at once calling Takeoffs a very...very...low pass.

[ChrisJ800]

The technology is there for formations of robot drones! No pilots needed, just some geeks. Im sure you could apply this to Reapers or other larger drones?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShGl5rQK3ew

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQIMGV5vtd4

[chopper2004]

Do all aircraft have to be of the same type? How about a mixture, but only two types?:)
The AAC Blue Eagles did that for a while, over a decade ago with WAH-64D plus the Lynx AH.7 ...

[Madbob]

There's always the option of painting the BBMF ac red!


That way the Reds would get a mixed fleet of ac to display, and might just stretch to a nine-ship if the Spitfires/Hurricanes where augmented by a few of 3rd/4th/5th hand Harvards and Chipmunks.


The cost of the BBMF & Reds would be amalgamated and the public still get to see the RAF, or more accurately a vestige of its once more glorious past, in action.....:(.


MB

[chopper2004]

This is worth a watch especially at the end of the documentary when they head to Canada and perform alongside the Blue Angels, Thunderbirds and the Snowbirds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJo8zoxmwwk

Interesting when all four teams are introduced to each other @33:50 onwards comparing a/c.

cheers