What is the PVR rate amongst pilots these days?

[newt]

Just wondering if with all the detachments the guys are doing these days, has the PVR rate gone up?

[MPN11]

I suspect most are on SSC, so PVR not needed.

The RAF as a lifetime career is now only for a very few.

[Melchett01]

I suspect most are on SSC, so PVR not needed.

The RAF as a lifetime career is now only for a very few.

Looking at it slightly more positively, what is it that keeps those 'Lifers' in? Removing PAS from the equation and thinking about those on the 'regular' career stream, what persuades people to stay? After all, we can't all be CAS. Pensions, BSA etc are a couple of likely suggestions although less so after pensions tinkering. A fear of the outside world / being unable to find another job with a similar standard of pay or just a lack of imagination that they might be able to do something else might be other reasons. Or perish the thought, people might stay as they actually find Defence interesting?

Is there a common thread these days running through 'Lifers' or has the emphasis on value for money and costs turned it into a transactional relationship and individuals stay for as long as they feel they are getting a decent return on their investment in the RAF?

[BEagle]

It must be pretty dire in the RAF if pilots are PVR'-ing en masse to be 'locked in a cupboard with a stranger for 2 hours 4 times per day' in the RHS of a 737 taking drunken oiks to watering holes various...

Different in your ba time of course, newt - no room parties or days off in the sun with glamorous hosties these days for most airline crews. Just the misery of being worked to death thanks to rostering computers regarding FTLs as a target rather than a limit.

So glad I never used my ATPL for anything except GA instructing/examining!

[Just This Once...]

I suspect most are on SSC, so PVR not needed.

The RAF as a lifetime career is now only for a very few.
The reverse these days, especially with the new employment model as aircrew automatically move to PC terms when fully qualified.

The punitive return of service applied by Manning at each and every opportunity also provides little opportunity to PVR, as these periods routinely overlap. This has led to some interesting repercussions.

[MPN11]

I am, of course, completely out of date on the current situation and am simply offering the ill-informed murmurings of an old bloke sat at a keyboard.

And, although not a pilot, i stayed [most of] the course for a variety of probably outdated reasons:
Reasonable rates of pay
Decent pension
Interesting jobs
A good life, when all's considered

It was only when I had just 5 years to go, no further career prospects [read 'promotion'], and had become rather tired of sitting at an HQ/MoD desk year after year* instead of being 'out there' with the Real Air Force that I was seduced by the Redundancy offer. The loss of salary was somewhat offset by the benefits of dropping out of the higher tax bracket, thus making savings and investments more profitable.

* Three consecutive MoD tours, followed by a Group HQ job.

[Just This Once...]

Arguably your bullet points were the main reasons most of us remained. Sadly the exact same list has been targeted and slowly removed, taking our experience levels with it.

I found it gobsmacking when a VSO confidently announced that the military would now have more of a transactional basis with its employees. When quizzed as to how this would be possible given that the military has zero ability to change the remuneration package he simply shrugged his shoulders.

[Chugalug2]

MPN11:-
instead of being 'out there' with the Real Air Force

In retrospect the very reason I PVR'd as a PC GD/P JO in 1973 (yes, I know, totally irrelevant these days, like me ;-). It is only since then that I have analysed my unease at the prospect of growing old as an SO in the RAF. As I see it, the RAF was designed as a bureaucracy in order to ensure its survival. It has thus almost reached its centenary, thus so far so good I suppose. I would maintain however that, from the point of view of a career, command prospects stop at the station gates.

Sqn/Unit/Wing/Stn Cdrs command the men and women they are responsible for, while those above simply man various levels of a bureaucratic pyramid that extend to the pinnacle CAS position. The titles are impressive of course; Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, etc, but one is reminded of the words of the Siphonaptera...

Oh, simply to add that I spent the rest of my working life:-
'locked in a cupboard with a stranger for 2 hours 4 times per day'
mostly in the LHS but certainly ending up on the 737 that you instance, Beagle. Thoroughly enjoyed it, though the period spent with a certain BA subsidiary was a bit trying I admit. No regrets though, wouldn't have changed much of it, again in retrospect...

[cessnapete]

Or Beagle, as a friend of mine is doing after leaving RAF a year ago. Flying a very big new 4 engine jet in a Big Airline in Uk. Stable roster, not changed daily. 4 star accom in worldwide hotels rather than leaky old rooms in Cyprus with often poor crew rest or preflight catering. And a substantial pay rise from day one!!
And no cameras found near side stick yet.

[Ascoteer]

Manning estimate a ~30% shortfall in fixed wing aircrew within next 3 years with current outflow rates and recruitment/training pipelines open fully.

Lots of multi-engine aircrew leaving post initial 6 year ROS. The huge pension blow, capped salary, reduction/removal of allowances and NEM have hit the pay offer; new flying pay offer on the cards for enactment in April. It won't be enough.

With Future Accommodation Model on the cards (it's not cost saving, honest) plus the huge amount of bureaucracy, reduced pension now at 20 yrs service, plus additional duties and instability that comes with post-Herrick Service, is there any reason for people to stay?

[Not_a_boffin]

is there any reason for people to stay?

Imminent luxury 4-month cruises perhaps?

[BEagle]

Manning estimate a ~30% shortfall in fixed wing aircrew within next 3 years with current outflow rates and recruitment/training pipelines open fully.

No sweat - they'll be able to take QFIs and ex-QFIs from the operational squadrons to augment the basic flying training stations.....and spring some QFIs from the UASs.

Except that they can't do that any more - not even with FTRS and 'sponsored reserve' mercenaries. Not enough aircraft, airfields or instructors - as we all knew would be the outcome of all the cuts.

When your bucket of fun is smaller than your bucket of $hit....:mad:

[Bob Viking]

At least we can always rely on BEagle to tell us exactly how it is.

I'm sorry if that comes across as grumpy but these threads are always the same. People who have either long left or who wish to leave will wax lyrical about how it was way better in the old days and how crap it is now. The people who are happy can't be arsed to post on PPrune.

I understand there are pinch points but this reads like a thread for the kind of people who go on the holiday of a lifetime and only remember the crap bits.

Can't we all just cheer up a bit?!

BV

[Hueymeister]

Nice one BV! Well said. There is a manning crisis looming and, as ever, the cracks will be papered-over. People will be happy with their lot, or not and the inflow/outflow will continue. Simples really.

[MPN11]

I'm happy. Lots of long-haul holidays funded by our RAF pensions. Or is that the wrong thing to say? ;)

[BEagle]

I'm sorry if that comes across as grumpy but these threads are always the same. People who have either long left or who wish to leave will wax lyrical about how it was way better in the old days and how crap it is now. The people who are happy can't be arsed to post on PPRuNe.

And how do you know that they can't be bothered to post?

I freely admit that I detest the closures and the creeping cancer of contractorisation which is today so prevalent.

If there was a sudden surge need, how would YOU solve the shortage of instructors, aircraft and airfields in your present-day Utopia, BV? Or is Jack alright at Valley and that's all that matters?

[Hueymeister]

BEags..

It'll be the old BoB reaction, where we'll have Poles, Czechs etc flying for us when Putin comes across the European plains....or b....

[MPN11]

The RAF is set up for the Wars we are having now, not the ones that might happen in the future. That's the bit that bothers me deeply, although I accept that UK plc can't afford to do much about that. Perhaps some reasonable mid-range equipment, instead of Gen 4/5, might be useful in some scenarios - with the people to operate them, of course.

[BEagle]

"We don't need a big wing, or a small wing, we need pilots - and a miracle".

I hope it won't ever come to that again - with only a few mercenaries and a handful of training aircraft stuck on a Welsh rock available to cope with the necessary training workload.

[VeeEffArrrrgh]

As I see it, the reasons people join/stay are from the following:

1. Pay and pension
2. Quality of the training
3. Diversity of employment and tours
4. Lifestyle, including leave, AT and sport

Point 1 is no longer as good relative to civilian employment as it used to be
Point 2 will certainly recruit people, but is not something that can be used to retain people
Point 3 has reduced with contractorisation, FTRS etc, and there is now little to retain people beyond (at best) 2 front lines tours followed by an instructional tour
Point 4 is still pretty good, provided that the culture on Stns encourages it. AT and sport in particular are what sets this job apart from a civilian one, and participation should be actively encouraged. Will it retain people though? Probably not beyond 2-3 tours.

The net result is that Service life will now hold an appeal of about 6-9 years, until most people have has their fun. I expect this is probably the intended effect of the recent changes anyway. The down-side will be that only the talentless remain until their 20 year point, while the best use the Services as a fun first career.

Finally, I should add that the mega-thrusters are not really included in the above, as they only have a desire for personal success.

[Bob Viking]

BEagle.

I realise I'm not likely to change your mind about any of this so I'm probably wasting my time typing. The problem is that you just keep banging the same old drum and as a guy who retired several years ago you just come across as a curmudgeonly old fool at times I'm afraid.

Times have changed. It is not the Air Force you joined. It's probably not even the Air Force you left. You ask me to offer solutions but maybe I don't have any. You offer none in return. You just keep banging on about the same problems.

I have experienced contractoristion and I have experienced MFTS. What I see is a system that is still upholding the standards that RAF training has always held dear. It is not perfect but then what has ever been perfect in the eyes of everyone?

We could sit and whine about it or just get on with life.

I am a PAS Flt Lt. I don't make policy and never will. What I can do is try to give value to every student I fly with.

I am happy in my own little sphere of operations and that's why I'm in no rush to leave. There are many more like me all over the RAF. Maybe Brize isn't as happy but I'm not going to pretend I know what life is like there.

As much as the giant RAF of yesteryear would have been an amazing place to be, I'm sure, we must also accept that it probably didn't provide great value for money and maybe, dare I say it, didn't provide the best standard of training.

In the modern world every pound of public money spent is scrutinised. You talk on another thread of First Class travel for senior officers. That was common place years ago but not any more. Complaining about things like that just shows that you haven't moved with the times.

To give a work slant on it I used to teach map and stopwatch evasion on a Hawk T1. Now it's all OTMs and Radar trails on the Hawk T2. One is not better than the other. They're just different.

I'll give it a rest now since I will start to go round in circles. I just hope I got my point across.

BV

[BEagle]

BV, the point isn't so much what clever-clogs training you provide in the Hawk T2 these days, which is no doubt rather different to that which I experienced my Gnat/Hunter time - it's simply that the RAF has shrunk to such an extent that any increase in training capability to cater for the input numbers which might be needed to cope with the reportedly large outflow numbers cannot now be achieved.

There simply aren't the resources, irrespective of the current standards of training.

[Professor Plum]

Ascoteer,

Hope you don't mind me asking, but what is it you've heard about the new flying pay offer which is on the cards?

The reason i ask is that I'm one of the guys coming to the end of my 6 year ROS. I can pvr now. I'm trying to work out whether it's worth me staying for the next tour I've been offered.

As a front line multi engine captain I'm on less than 60k. Airlines (inc low cost airlines) are offering 6 figures. The quicker I jump ship, the quicker I'll be on 6 figures. Money talks.

Wakey wakey RAF!!

It also amuses me every time a friend of mine turns down captaincy so as not to have to sign the associated ROS. I dread to think of the state of the RAFin a few years time.

[BEagle]

goldcup, as a ba pilot of some 9+ years, I would caution you against making abusive personal attacks on Internet forums.

The company has a pretty strict social media policy.

[Mil-26Man]

Can you personally attack an internet moniker? Genuine question.

[Madbob]

The common thread through all of this is that the RAF, indeed you can include the whole public sector of the NHS, Education, MOD, Civil Service, have suffered the effects of salami-slicing for years and years.


The simple truth is that there is always more "bread" to be spread that "butter" available. The RAF needs more "butter" to do its job but the polititians/Treasury decide the priorities for public spending and the MOD is not getting enough. The 2% of GDP limit, is down on the 3.5% or more typically spent in the past and there is no escape from this reality.:eek::eek:


The VSO's in all the Armed Forces are struggling to balance their books notwithstanding the reductions brought on by SDSR 15 but the reality is that no amount of shiny kit, is going to make people stay in the job once they are in a position to PVR/leave unless the PEOPLE concerned are........


1. Paid enough viz a viz civillians in similar jobs;
2. Offered pensions that keep pace with what's available outside;
3. Have decent messing/accommodation at rates that are affordable, and where charges do not exceed any annual pay increases;
4. Where opportunities for career advancement/specialist training are not effectively denied/interrupted because of short-notice postings/detachments and under-manning;
5. Where annual leave is considered a luxury and not an entitlement;
6. Where so-called "perks" such as entitlement to boarding school education allowance, rail warrants and home-to-duty travel are cut/abolished.
7. Where on-station medical services are reduced to little more than that provided by a District Nurse.
8. No recognition is made for the "X" factor that shows itself in a myriad of ways.......a wife's inability to follow her chosen career due to following her husband's (or vice versa if talking about a female). Un-accompanied postings that leave a family without the chief gardener, handy-man/woman, chauffeur of children, etc. that often require such services to be bought-in by paying someone else.


Neglect the above and it is easy to see why retention is a problem across the board, not just in the armed forces, but also in the NHS, Prison Service etc. etc.


One simple test. Would you encourage your children to join even the Air Cadets today? My answer would be to steer mine elsewhere.......


MB out.

[Ken Scott]

goldcup, as a ba pilot of some 9+ years, I would caution you against making abusive personal attacks on Internet forums.




I thought it was all 'fair comment' rather than 'slander'.

[alfred_the_great]

And of course, special snowflake pilots are frankly the least of Defence's worries. Why on earth should you get massively better t&c than the rest of us?

[Planemike]

PVR rate....???

[212man]

2. Offered pensions that keep pace with what's available outside;

That shouldn't be too difficult!

[Ken Scott]

And of course, special snowflake pilots are frankly the least of Defence's worries. Why on earth should you get massively better t&c than the rest of us?


Despite your rather inflammatory language I do agree, all branches & trades are subject to declining employment standards, & re numeration under NEM. It's no good having aircraft without the pilots to fly them nor the engineers to maintain them. All of our jobs are to put the aircraft in the sky to enable its task.

Not sure what a 'special snowflake pilot' is though.....

[charliegolf]

Why on earth should you get massively better t&c than the rest of us?

Perhaps because they are from within the top 2% of the population, ability-wise, and choose to apply that ability to the defence of the realm?

CG

[Jumping_Jack]

or perhaps they have over inflated egos and believe their own publicity material? :}

[Hueymeister]

Special snowflake?

Goldcup, spot on and merely factual, not abusive in the slightest. As for threatening company policy police on you, highly unlikely and just more evidence of his vindictive and oft spiteful nature.

Whatever people leave for, there'll be a common thread, but in the end it's often the more personal issues that make someone leave; it was for me.

Anyhoooo...MFTS will be the RAF's saviour won't it??

[BEagle]

After years of flying venerable museum pieces, the RAF now has some of the most modern AT/AAR aircraft in the world at its disposal - C-17, Voyager and Atlas, for example.

A real shame if people elect to PVR rather than to fly such aircraft.

By the way, Hueymeister, it was an ex-colleague ba captain of my acquaintance who told me of their company's attitude towards anything which could be considered abuse of social media by their employees, as he'd recently fallen foul of it. Now reinstated, thankfully.

Troll as you wish - but if you do, be careful of some companies' thought police...:\

[EESDL]

Are you asking because you are trying to formulate a recruiting policy ?

[alfred_the_great]

Perhaps because they are from within the top 2% of the population, ability-wise, and choose to apply that ability to the defence of the realm?

CG
No, they're within a 2% of the population who apply and have a certain innate skillset. They then confuse this with being "top", nor 2% of the entire population.

[wiggy]

By the way, Hueymeister, it was an ex-colleague ba captain of my acquaintance who told me of their company's attitude towards anything which could be considered abuse of social media by their employees, as he'd recently fallen foul of it. Now reinstated, thankfully.

Troll as you wish - but if you do, be careful of some companies' thought police...

TBH BEags whilst I'm glad your acquaintance escaped the drop I'm not sure what that's got to do with this debate- Knowing BA as I do it's one thing posting something nasty about the company/passenger/fellow employee on Facebook/union forum/company then you may well get snagged,......outside of that I've not any evidence of them acting as internet police..I've stuck my neck out on the other parts of Pprune about BA often enough and never felt the pipper burns...

[charliegolf]

They then confuse this with

Alf, you in turn confused me with a person being sincere!
(Can't sem to do the thumbs up thingy anymore!)

CG

[Hueymeister]

Me, troll? Never.:=:=Merely concurring with a colleague's views.:}

Anyhoo, back to the thread; what's the outflow rate and for what reasons (PVR, end of TOS, option points etc)? That would be more interesting to know. Trained Effective Strength vs Preferred Manning Level and are there holes in unit/sqn experience levels...if that could be or should be discussed here that is...

[BEagle]

goldcup, I can assure you (as can the 747 captain in question), that I'm telling the truth. I was astonished that ba should have poked its nose in to the site in question.

But keep posting your malicious slander as you wish - water and ducks' backs spring to mind...

Hueymeister, I invite you to swivel on your extended digitus secundus!

[MPN11]

I will defer to the Aircrew Handbag Squadron and unsubscribe for this Thread.

Honestly, girls :(

[Brain Potter]

BEagle,

On the subject of "malicious slander"', would you care to explain why you think it is accpetable to repeatedly use the term "mercenaries" to describe serving members of the reserve component of HM Forces?

[phil9560]

Aìr Cadet Visit Bitch duties ? Nice to hear the young are thought well of.Dude.

[newt]

Well I started this thread as a light hearted attempt to maybe offer my services again should the RAF find themselves short of pilots! I would of course need time to be wheel chaired out to the aircraft!! Seems I stirred up another hornets nest.....most of which I don't even understand! So nothing changes 😎

[Harley Quinn]

Just wondering if with all the detachments the guys are doing these days, has the PVR rate gone up?
If you search for UK Armed Forces Personnel Statistics you'll find the official numbers for at least the last two years. Worth a read, we are losing aircrew and ground crew at a rate great than intake. If you remember that it takes a few years to gain appropriate experience then all three services are in the pooh.

[Arty Fufkin]

If the Voyager force keeps haemorrhaging pilots at the rate I'm told it currently is and is forcast to, "mercenaries" will be the only ones left to fly the aeroplanes.

At least the RAF will then have one fleet manned by experienced pilots who aren't hacked off by meaningless "career enhancing" secondary duties, get paid an industry standard wage, and are employed to first and foremost actually fly aircraft.

Perhaps if those Ts and Cs could be extended to full timers, less would leave.

[drustsonoferp]

The stats kindly published on the .gov.uk site (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/559537/Monthly_service_personnel_statistics-_September_2016__2_.pdf) don't go into such detail as pilot numbers, but may be of interest if you haven't seen them already.

[The Old Fat One]

Bob (V)

Late to thread but just wanted to say nice post and repeat an anecdote that I've posted before. Going through SNCO rearcrew (Nimrod OCU) training in 1976, I was cornered in the scruffs bar (Sgts Mess, RAF St Mawgan) by a FS Air Eng (he wasn't even that old) and lectured for hours on end about the state of the RAF and how it was all going to ratpooh.

It's just something some people have to do.

I was in 27 years (75-03); some stuff never changed, some changed out of all recognition.

It was **** ing great though...and I bet it still is.

Not so grumpy, old fat ****er.

[Just This Once...]

Setting aside the rose-tinted glasses for a moment, perhaps the biggest observed change from the days when the more senior personnel moaned about it all going wrong before eventually leaving, is that the more senior people are now watching the new blood haemorrhage well before they ever become the old and bold.

The young should be having the time of their life (as I did) but are just beating a path to the door. That is quite a change.

[Hueymeister]

JTO,

An element of what you mention was an intended result of the run up to NEM and AFPS 15. The guys are inculcated through training with disparate sign on periods that the military is not necessarily a job for life, and many see an initial option point as just that, especially those with marketable skills outwith BRITMIL. An unintended consequence is probably that conditions of service, NEM becoming a reality and the plethora of other 'changes' have encouraged individuals across a swath of trades/occupations to leave before the system was expecting them to.:(

[RetiredBA/BY]

It must be pretty dire in the RAF if pilots are PVR'-ing en masse to be 'locked in a cupboard with a stranger for 2 hours 4 times per day' in the RHS of a 737 taking drunken oiks to watering holes various...

Different in your ba time of course, newt - no room parties or days off in the sun with glamorous hosties these days for most airline crews. Just the misery of being worked to death thanks to rostering computers regarding FTLs as a target rather than a limit.

So glad I never used my ATPL for anything except GA instructing/examining!

So glad you didn't use your ATPL, too. It is just possible, although unlikely, ( my company was very choosey in its pilot selection) you might have been my whinging F/O ( the vast majority of our f/os we're far from whingers) on a 10 hour sector to MCO often followed by some free time in the sun, with a very nice hotel, breakfast included, excellent allowances and a guaranteed seat for my wife when she chose to come along ! ( In a very pleasant 767 or a , then, brand new 757 with their superb flight decks). Oh yes, and a salary comparable to an AVM and a pension FAR better than that of an AVM!

Having PVR,ed many years ago life just got better and better, you don't know what you missed !

[Dan Winterland]

The issue is are that pilots are pilots wherever they work and pilots are in short supply. My company have some of the best terms and conditions in the business, but we are losing pilots almost as fast as we can train them and we have a 10% expansion planned for the next 9 months. At a meeting about this earlier, I had to show some of my colleagues an e-mail I received this morning from on of the contract agencies offering a package just short of half a million US dollars a year. The shortage has created a bidding war. The RAF will not be immune.

Cash talks, BS walks.

[MSOCS]

Retired BA,

I'm pleased your choices worked out for YOU. Such choices have not and will not be as applicable to many others. Money isn't everything; TOS are relative to one's circumstances; motivations vary (the thrill of flying a helicopter on ops, intercepting a potential air threat etc).

Peoples' reasons for not joining an airline are just as valid as those for and should be viewed as their point of view and not whinging per se.

I sincerely hope your health remains for long enough to enjoy that pension....

[Wander00]

ISTR that a shortage of pilots around now was predicted a few years ago..................

[Wrathmonk]

Originally posted by Dan Winterland
I received this morning from one of the contract agencies offering a package just short of half a million US dollars a year

Agency based in Nigeria perhaps? Did they ask you to send US$50,000 in advance to sort out contract and visas, refundable once you start work?;):ok:

[deltahotel]

Probably not. There are plenty of Far East contracts of high value. I recently walked away from a perfectly respectable job application worth $25000 pm. This included everything - salary, housing and travel allowance, but tax free and 4 on 2 off.