Recruitment > Retention

[AlanPardew]

Well that email from our DSVPFO has confirmed that they value recruitment over retention.

It can't only be us that realise it's more practical, more efficient and cheaper to keep current pilots than let them leave and recruit new ones?

What are we missing?

Alan Pardew
Southgate stole my job

[Falck]

That is how it is I fear.

Think about it? Any airline I guess. If you are young, eager, flexible, no big mouth, not sick all the time, strong to do 90+ hours month after month. Untill you have enough. No payrise or anything to keep you. Why should the airline reward an old inflexible,complaining big mouth, allways sick drained pilot?

You as a cost unit payed out to the company.

You leave. New fresh eager, flexible,fit young pilots will do it again.

Your loyalty and knowledge and experience is not what matters in this automated flying world it seems. It is all about money to keep the show going.

New contracts in new bases in EU Loco world. no loyalty or growth pay. A 26 year old Capt will earn the same as a 64 year old Capt. If you are young great, fly to the max untill you have enough. That is 39 years remaining as a 26 year old Capt on the very same type aircraft doing the same destinations everyday 900 hours per year. These young pilots will hit a wall when they are getting 40 or so. Then what? They are grummpy, not flexible, big mouth, sick and want to leave etc etc etc. That is exact what the company wants. New fresh ones lined up.

That is how I see it, sorry

Falck

[WB1900]

Just proofs the theory i had earlier


for e.g. LH skippers need to quit with 60 from LH, but still have a vaild LIC.


this email opens the door for excatly those pilots for another 5 years in their career. These are those people the company needs urgently as many senior pilots are leaving.


good luck for all the shafted FO as they are now facing a long term contract with EK as FO


in other post was to read about a LH FO looking for EK upgrade opportunities.


LEVEL 2 FO opens the door for these fellows, because u get em only in one way - RAPID COMMAND
otherwise they will never ever leave a company where u have the following


descent roaster
a working bidding system
a union which takes care about full filling the rules
a union that take care about manpower rules so that nobody is shafted
part time
leave when u request it


all this point a only exchangeable for a price


better money and a fast career.


so if a downgraded com believes that he will get the command back not being overtaken by all the LEVEL 2 entries - good luck with that one


our mgmt has just proofed that an EK employee has no value at all. I recommend we start training pilot LIC for 3 floor upward managers, otherwise there will be little big shortage of pilots.


Far all FO now celebrating proudly that they will overtake a lot of senior FO in this company - i promise u, u will be next to be slaughtered, if one of u make just the slightest mistake, consider what just happened in this company and how u have other lives in hands - the guy next to on the right.

[777boyindubai]

This has been going on for a long time in other departments in EK. It was only a matter of time before it came around to the pilot body. Looks like poor old 'enry has taken too many round the head to think straight. For all the new joiners who think this is great, wait to see it happen to you. Total pigs are EK mismanagement. The ship lists another degree....

[halas]

I think l got half of what WB1900 said.
Can anyone translate?

halas

[glofish]

The only retention they know and are good at is the .... one

[Single Flasher]

Was it not Michael O'Leary that said in his book 'I treat my staff like lemons, I squeeze until there's nothing left and then get some more'
Sadly that mode of operation sees him as one of the most successful (economically) aviation CEOs ever.....
The world it is a-changing.

[Monarch Man]

Was it not Michael O'Leary that said in his book 'I treat my staff like lemons, I squeeze until there's nothing left and then get some more'
Sadly that mode of operation sees him as one of the most successful (economically) aviation CEOs ever.....
The world it is a-changing.


Except of course O'Leary has had to backtrack a significant amount given that his vision also created employees equally disloyal and motivated to move on should there be other opportunities elsewhere...so much so that his operation VERY nearly ground to a halt.
Couple this with pi55ed off staff pi55ing off passengers with provocative an pi55-taking policies, and you have a business falling into decline.
Sound familiar?

[EDDT]

think l got half of what WB1900 said.
Can anyone translate?

halas

when you replace LH not with longhaul, but Lufthansa, it all makes sense.

[Kamelchaser]

Chatting with my Purser on board today. She said pursers have been "invited" (on their day off) to attend "focus groups" to discuss how EK can do better in dealing with the rapidly declining customer satisfaction issue.

I said to her to go along and tell them they're missing the friggin point...completely skipping past the problem. Engage with the disenfranchised, threatened, pissed off and worn out staff first...fix that problem because without that being solved, they're completely wasting their time trying to fix the customer satisfaction problem.

As Branson says.."I don't have to worry about looking after my customers...I look after my staff and THEY look after my customers"

[Rather Be Skiing]

Chatting with my Purser on board today. She said pursers have been "invited" (on their day off) to attend "focus groups" to discuss how EK can do better in dealing with the rapidly declining customer satisfaction issue.

I said to her to go along and tell them they're missing the friggin point...completely skipping past the problem. Engage with the disenfranchised, threatened, pissed off and worn out staff first...fix that problem because without that being solved, they're completely wasting their time trying to fix the customer satisfaction problem.

As Branson says.."I don't have to worry about looking after my customers...I look after my staff and THEY look after my customers"

While I agree with you, going to such a meeting and trying to enlighten this management, although admirable, is a fruitless task. Sadly.

The reality is the disrespect, the under appreciation and under valuation of the staff comes from the very top. Empathy and understanding are not traits that are taught and those without them don't even know that they don't know.

The 'meetings' will result in new rules and requisite punishments for non adherence.

It would great if I am totally off base, but I see no indications to see it any other way.

[Spikedog]

Chatting with my Purser on board today. She said pursers have been "invited" (on their day off) to attend "focus groups" to discuss how EK can do better in dealing with the rapidly declining customer satisfaction issue.

I said to her to go along and tell them they're missing the friggin point...completely skipping past the problem. Engage with the disenfranchised, threatened, pissed off and worn out staff first...fix that problem because without that being solved, they're completely wasting their time trying to fix the customer satisfaction problem.

As Branson says.."I don't have to worry about looking after my customers...I look after my staff and THEY look after my customers"



It's not rocket science. Like Branson says and does - treat your staff well and they will look after the customers. What do the company expect when the cabin crew are worked like dogs?

If management need to run focus groups with cabin crew to work this out then they don't deserve to be in a management role.

And to have to go in on a rare day off just adds insult to injury, even if it is voluntary. These meetings should be rostered.

[fatbus]

Unless CM is chairing the mtg , it's a waste of time.

[Icarus2001]

As Branson says.."I don't have to worry about looking after my customers...I look after my staff and THEY look after my customers"

Please stop perpetuating the myth that Mr Branson came up with this, he has never had an original idea in his life.

http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-motivate-them-train-them-care-about-them-and-make-winners-out-of-them-we-know-if-we-j-w-bill-marriott-119-95-21.jpg

John William Marriott (1900-1985) had some very progressive ideas, Branson is a copier and brilliant self promoter.

[777boyindubai]

Don't waste your time going. Let the brilliant EK managers solve their own issues. After all, it is above the pay grade of everyone who isn't a VP.

[Metro man]

Accountant: What if we spend all this money training our staff and they leave ?

CEO: What if we don't and they stay ?

[Monarch Man]

Well said Metro, the cost of everything, but the value of nothing, and in respect of EK there are various layers to hide, massage and generally filter the real reasons for issue happening before they ever reach decision makers with the ability toresolve things.
All that being said, in the middle east along with plenty of other 2nd or 3rd world territories the mantra is far more about shifting blame and maintaining status than it is about fixing problems.

[fatbus]

Last sentence sums it up! Everyone said the place would implode one day , seems on the verge. No one cares about the company anymore.

[Kobus Dune]

Chatting with my Purser on board today. She said pursers have been "invited" (on their day off)...
I said to her to go along and tell them ....
I think you missed the point by talking to her : she was probably feeling dignified that in some way she had been invited, and not a Captain like you, and you were even lowering yourself more by trying to convey something through her channel.
Now if the company has to resort asking their opinion to pursers, where are they going down to ?

[harry the cod]

Kobus Dune

Whether the management should be asking anyones opinion is open to debate. Personally, the more departments that are involved, throughout the various pay grades, the better. We complain when they don't ask our views, we complain when they do!

Your comment may be perceived by some as pompous and arrogant. You insinuate that, because of position alone, you should be consulted before those lower in rank. Well, with a few exceptions, most of the pursers I fly with have a far greater understanding of the business model and our customer's requirements than those at the pointy end. They deal with it day in, day out, face to face. We don't.

Your show no respect for those leading the cabin yet expect the Company to show you respect? The irony is astounding!

Harry

[Kobus Dune]

That's what happens when you have been fraternising with cabin crew during your whole career : you end up talking like one.

[BigGeordie]

Well personally I'm quite happy not to be "invited" to a meeting on a day off.

[Jack D]

A small difference of opinion in your choice of wording Harry .
The a/c commander leads the crew
& the entire operation once doors are closed . The purser manages the cabin , leadership vs management there is a difference I believe .

[777boyindubai]

Aren't you a pleasant guy to work with Kobus? :ugh:

[GoreTex]

they say "sell in May and go away", I did that and I am so happy, best decision ever but I still love to hear from friends who are still there (for a few weeks) what they come up with on a daily basis, you can't make that S**t up.

btw they also say "cut your losses short"

[harry the cod]

Jack D

Absolutely there's a difference. Unfortunately, there is an increasing number of our colleagues who don't recognise that difference.

To arrive back from rest on the latest ULR to find the relief crew engrossed in wifi games on their IPads speaks volumes about leadership....wouldn't you agree? The same Captain that chats on his phone on the Dubai air bridge while moaning the time it takes for crew to do their post landing duties. The very same Captain through US immigration first then complaining on the hotel bus about the Arabic crew member held back. I could go on but I'm sure you've got the drift by now.

Sadly, there are some amongst us that simply expect to be respected because of position, but do very little to earn it. Probably the same individuals on these forums to complain about our Management culture. Ring a bell Kobus?

Harry

[Kamelchaser]

Yeah sorry Kobus..you're right. We shouldn't talk to the hired help. What was I thinking?

[Jack D]

Harry good point ! I personally have never seen some of the things you describe, but if that,s the case then yes , such persons cannot be taken seriously by any crew member & are in fact undermining the whole concept of professional leadership ,
Shame indeed .

[MusingMonk]

To arrive back from rest on the latest ULR to find the relief crew engrossed in wifi games on their IPads speaks volumes about leadership....wouldn't you agree? The same Captain that chats on his phone on the Dubai air bridge while moaning the time it takes for crew to do their post landing duties. The very same Captain through US immigration first then complaining on the hotel bus about the Arabic crew member held back. I could go on but I'm sure you've got the drift by now.

u see this every ULR/flight ??

I am sure you must have made some reports.

[CaptainChipotle]

Typical thread drift.

[lospilotos]

New AAR meeting tomorrow. I hope the ones invited make sure to get the point across...

[donpizmeov]

You mean like it's been put across since 2004? Yep..should work.

[CAYNINE]

Harry for once I seriously agree with you, I have seen a big deterioration in the "Captain" interaction and leadership when it comes to looking after the crew that they are charged with looking after as part of that "Commander" status that so many demand and have a sense of entitlement to treat others with contempt .

It's more than being an Ars@ to people, its called being an effective leader that looks after all the crew regardless on how annoying they may be.

[White Knight]

its called being an effective leader that looks after all the crew regardless on how annoying they may be.

Seconded. And I've seen some really cringeworthy briefings from the Operating Captain! A great way to set the tone for a trip:rolleyes::ugh:

[LW20]

LH (Lufthansa) pilots can fly until they are 65.

[Plane and simple]

Ah yes. That's the major problem at this place. iPads in the flight deck.

Not the inhumane rostering. Not the lack of respect for any employee. Not the fear culture prevalent through every department.

Get a grip.

[The Outlaw]

P&S...right on the mark...

Harry...you missed it by a long shot...Generally you bring some good arguments but this time its akin to Hillary calling Donald a liar!

We have far bigger problems than IPADS in the flight deck....

[harry the cod]

The Outlaw

With respect, I think you've missed the irony in your own post. The Company behaves shoddily, therefore so can we? Is that it? That would be a more apt analogy of the hypocrisy you quote.

Nobody would disagree with that last sentence of yours. Too bloody right we have far bigger problems. We're probably at the biggest crossroads in this Companies history right now and as has been mentioned previously, an email highlighting correct DFW PA's is laughable amongst the lack of important communication that should be distributed. THAT is an example of having a firm grip of the non essentials, not iPads. Being disinterested and frustrated with your employer should not be an excuse for being unprofessional. However, therein lies the problem. When a workforce is demotivated, they don't vote with their feet initially, they vote through actions. They become disengaged. They do the absolute minimum required to get the job done and no more. When it's my life on that plane and I disappear down the back for 6 hours, I want to be fully confident that the 2 jokers at the sharp end do a little more than the minimum. Don't you?

Save the phones and games for the layover at 3am in the morning when you're wide awake, not when you have the responsibility of 400-500 lives behind you. Don't dismiss those numbers. Just stop and think about that for one minute and the responsibility that's in your hands. I'd expect that behaviour and attitude from a petulant teenager, not from a couple of mature individuals paid well to do a job properly and professionally. It wouldn't inspire me much if I drifted off to sleep in the operating room with the last fading view of the anaesthetist playing angry birds!

If there is anybody on these forums that can't even agree with that basic process, they should not be pilots.....Plane and simple!

Harry

[CAYNINE]

Once again Harry, well put.

Strange as it may seem to some of you there are still some of us that love what we do. There will never be a perfect world when it comes to aviation, but, we still need to take some pride in what and how we perform our duties and our responsibilities.

As Harry said, its not about carrying the people that we are angry at in the back, its about carrying people that have an paid hard earned money and have an expectation that the two characters at the front firstly know what they are doing and, secondly have some self respect and personal pride that they intend to do it to the best of their ability..... just saying.

[MusingMonk]

2 jokers at the sharp end

u must be in training for sure..!! now I get it..

[Talparc]

This is very true

[speedbirdhopeful1]

u must be in training for sure..!! now I get it..

I'm just waiting on him mentioning his horror about when he returned to the flight deck to see the guys still wearing their pyjamas..

Harry, I guess you never read a newspaper then while oceanic to Aus on CPDLC with no weather? Too busy keeping those 400 people alive with your hands on the controls..

[BLOGGSON]

Harry does come over as a bit of an old woman sometimes but essentially he is in the right here. My problem is less with the ethos of being in command and carrying out your responsibilities diligently and professionally; that should be a given. My concern is the ever increasing muppetry of the cabin crew empire and the deplorable drop in quality of their recruits in the last few years. I know it's a generational thing; they are Gen X - instant gratification, and a natural disdain for authority. Some of the seniors and pursers I fly with these days stagger me with their nonchalant attitude to the chain of command. Once or twice I've listened to a welcome PA from one of the crew, welcoming the pax on behalf of the purser- no mention of the captain. I even had a very senior purser recently describe how when remonstrating with a drunken passenger, he told him that he, (the purser) wouldn't hesitate to divert the aircraft and have him arrested if he didn't behave. I've had to talk to crew about horseplay in front of passengers in a line at immigration, while the seniors did absolutely nothing. Twice I've had to speak to crew about a visibly bad attitude towards me and their colleagues.

A bit of thread creep I know but it was being pushed in this direction. For me the link to retention here is the seemingly irrecoverable slide down the greasy pole of the captain's authority: too many people in Service Delivery really think that the aircraft is theirs and the company is complicit in this by not disabusing them of their ill informed opinion. The rot has spread elsewhere too. Anybody had to have a conversation with Network Control recently? The lack of interest is extraordinary. The sense that you're just bothering them is palpable, and that they know better than you.

All told, the company really has stopped investing in its people, whatever mantra they throw about in public.

[Monarch Man]

Blog, very astute, I've lamented the same on numerous occasions, I now give them two chances, on the third strike they get offloaded or dead-head home. Reminds me of the North African chap who explained to me recently that he was in the flight deck to "knock-out" the other pilot if he touched the controls while I went out for a fuel jettison, needless to say he was banished to economy and I made sure he wasn't part of my crew on the way home.
I find the whole issue with the chain of command quite simple to resolve, but I can do it in my PJs with a paper in hand if needed.

[speedbirdhopeful1]

I find the whole issue with the chain of command quite simple to resolve, but I can do it in my PJs with a paper in hand if needed.

Monarch Man, spot on! It's very possible to lead without being a complete dick. Especially to the other guy/girl. If they're on the ball, and someone is minding the shop then who cares if they're on their iPad instead of reading a newspaper? Now if they're doing it over the hilamalays, missing radio calls or on descent then that's a different conversation.

Thread drift to the max as always!

[DCS99]

"The sense that you're just bothering them is palpable, and that they know better than you."

Rings bells.
The latter is something I've experienced in the Castle.
I really didn't like being talked down to by someone who's probably been to only 2 airports in their life.
Made a mental note to avoid in the future.

I questioned myself afterwards to check if it was my attitude that was the problem.
No. Definitely theirs.

[A320ECAM]

Guys, can I throw an open question if I may...

If you are all sick of the EK lifestyle, then why don't you just leave? Not only are there other airlines out there, there are other careers! Think about how many people aspire to be in your shoes.

[777boyindubai]

Have a good read of the threads. My, my are the trolls busy today...

[ExDubai]

Seems like Costa in the castle is busy...

[littlejet]

At the end is all about making a right decision at the right time...such as push the throttles when TOGA not working or release the side stick when pitots are iced up, dich it in the river...in your PJs or while browsing, my family does not care...my 2c

[MusingMonk]

Guys, can I throw an open question if I may

Why don't you throw an axe instead

[nolimitholdem]

Guys, can I throw an open question if I may...

If you are all sick of the EK lifestyle, then why don't you just leave? Not only are there other airlines out there, there are other careers! Think about how many people aspire to be in your shoes.

LEAVING.

What makes you think that many who read and participate in these discussions haven't already done so or are contemplating doing so or are in the very process of doing so?

But thanks for participating in a discussion you apparently know nothing about. This IS the internet, after all.

[airtractor]

My concern is the ever increasing muppetry of the cabin crew empire and the deplorable drop in quality of their recruits in the last few years. I know it's a generational thing; they are Gen X - instant gratification, and a natural disdain for authority.

I think you meant Generation "Y" or the "Millennials"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

[BLOGGSON]

Airtractor.

Yes I did, thanks for the correction. I should have known, I have two of my own!

[airtractor]

So do I and they are a lot of work !
;-)

[cidfast]

Not sure on which topic to post this, as all this topic-drifting blurs my mind.

This is addressed to my fellow EK mates and not the snot-nosed kids posting in various names on different treads. Some with the same IP addresses.

Now
Most of the regulars here are seniors and/or TRE’s
Why on earth would you take the time to respond to these snot-nosed brats.
Would the argon-welder tolerate back-chat from his apprentice?
Does the law under-graduate have any recognition?
Doctors treat interns with distain
The mining engineering student enters the lift last

These newbies are keen, like we were.
We were good enough to join the military and/or our national carriers, which we left to join EK – because EK WAS better. Even with those bloody red ties.
These kids are not good enough for that.
Let them be.

They like to post:
holding my face / I’m not looking at myself in the Volvo / I can dip a 20kg plate/ I finally have an oxy mask - which I struggle to use - and therefore sound like Darth Vader because I have not learnt not to breathe and transmit simultaneously (was that the real a/c?)/ My bicep in uniform / My bed in the sky / I’m not looking but I’m taking a pic of myself / I pretend to look at the back of the passenger-seat -headrest in the Volvo while I accidentally take a pic of……myself / my car / my stringvest …etc.

These are the interns / candidate officers / I’m so useless I have to pay for my flying / apprentice welders / blast certificate students

Give them time.
Let them join. Give them time to mature and have families. Then watch them complain.

Don’t see my family, I’m on a final warning for not arming the SpdBrk @ 1000’, I can’t get emergency leave to say goodbye to my father –because fleet wants the death certificate, I need to buy CAT C tickets back to DXB in case the flight goes Tech, my upgrade is delayed by 1 year because I missed a pick up, the DCP decided I’m not ready for command because of my attire at the interview, kids have 4 years of school before I can leave, can’t get timeoff to do an interview, a grade 2 reported me for sexual harassment when I asked for a coffee please “DARLING”, my wife left me…….yada yada

The EK pilot body figure is predicted at 5600-5800 (STC early 2015). Then no more – unless they order more a/c. (Not)
Let them join at #4300, let them jump in. They will not see a command for +/-10 years. Depending on how fast the guys above them leave……….and the age thing, if it is true.
HAHAHAHA