Rogue Pilots in NZ

[krypton_john]

I'm not sure this can be disputed.

Heli Association: Rogue New Zealand helicopter pilots risking life and industry reputation | Stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/84578414/heli-association-rogue-new-zealand-helicopter-pilots-risking-life-and-industry-reputation)

Is this a Kiwi phenomenon or is it world wide? Is the venison era a unique influence, or in other countries is the same space filled by something else like ex mil war vets?

[gulliBell]

I wrote in the tech log of a 212 "failed power assurance check", and with the open entry still in the book a kiwi pilot thought nothing of then taking it out and doing a job for a customer. It was incomprehensible for him to think that it might need maintenance before the next flight. Or at least for the open entry to be deferred by the mechanic. I used to see a lot (and I mean a lot) of that sort of stuff from kiwi pilots.

[heli kiwi]

maybe the kiwi pilot was doing a job that didn't need that much power.

[gullibelly]

gulliBell, this is gold coming from you. (Location: Wanaka, NZ) Did you ever fly below Wx minima? Did you ever overload your aircraft? Did you report that? If so, then how did that work out for you?
Let's not start bashing each other and instead all of us get behind a move to increase the safety culture our industry deserves - one flight at a time.

[gulliBell]

...which perfectly illustrates me point.

Great. But if a donk fails and the other sick donk don't have the guts to keep you out of the trees then the lawyers will have a field day.

[GoodGrief]

I see the problem in your maintenance department. Mine basically confiscates the tech log until the problem is rectified.
Pilots can't use a machine without checking serviceability with MX.

Not finding the tech log in the aircraft should trigger a thought process within the pilot though...;)

[[email protected]]

KJ, do I not remember you robustly defending a Kiwi pilot who had shown a clear lack of judgement and taken unnecessary risks?

[ShyTorque]

I was on holiday for a month or so in NZ in 1995. Some of the stupid helicopter antics I saw going on out there made my hair stand on end. With myself having been in the helicopter business for almost twenty years already back then, my kids wanted to fly on a sightseeing trip but I would not under any circumstances let them fly with the operators we saw in "cowboy action".

I later read in that year 10% of all the NZ civilian registered helicopters were lost to "accidents". I was in no way surprised.

[gulliBell]

@gullibelly

Yep, guilty of all that, and more. No doubt if you want to get the job done the kiwi pilot is the guy who will find a way to do it. This is a common trait I've found over the years.

[Non-PC Plod]

It speaks volumes about the prevalent safety culture when one pilot says to the other on this forum:
"Did you ever fly below Wx minima? Did you ever overload your aircraft? ", and clearly expects the answer - "Yes"!!
I would hope most people would answer "No"!!

[Hughesy]

And here comes the Kiwi bashing.
A lot of Pilots have crashed (fatally) while flying under wx mins. Among other accidents and incidents worldwide.
And not just kiwis. But not all kiwis (like all pilots around this world) fly like cowboys.
Those that live in glass houses should not throw stones.
Safe and enjoyable flying everyone.
(ducking for incoming rants)

[SASless]

Kiwi 's have no monopoly on this kind of thing and to paint all of them with that one brush is way over the top!

[ShyTorque]

Hughesy, the article came from your own National helicopter association.

However, I agree with SASless, no one country has a monopoly on rule breaking and lack of common sense when it comes to helicopters.

[Hughesy]

Yeah I know that ShyTorque.

I got it in Canada, that we (kiwis) are cowboys.
I got wind of it from Aussies in PNG that we (kiwis) are cowboys.

My point is...we don't all fly like that. Like not all pilots are perfect overseas.

[haughtney1]

Not a flingwing bandit myself, but have plenty of friends in the industry, many of whom will freely admit that the limits do indeed get pushed. The people I know certainly aren't cowboys, but there is definitely a culture of trying to get the job done..sometimes at the expense of a margin here and there. Its a throw back to the early days of bush flying in NZ and the Ag scene...then there were the halcyon days of deer recovery...

[Self loading bear]

the truthfull answer should probably be:
Yes
Been there
Done that
Learned my lesson
Luckily still wearing the T-shirt
Never want to be there again.

The tread is not about Bashing.
Not everybody should be tarred with the same brush.
The issue is that a NZ heli Association is signalling an above average corner cutting.
Difficult to discuss averages!

SLB

[ShyTorque]

Yeah I know that ShyTorque.

I got it in Canada, that we (kiwis) are cowboys.
I got wind of it from Aussies in PNG that we (kiwis) are cowboys.

My point is...we don't all fly like that. Like not all pilots are perfect overseas.
Hughesy,

Unfortunately you are in the position of reaping what others before you have sown.
I note you would have been just 17 when I visited your beautiful country and saw first hand what concerned me. It wasn't "corners being cut" just plain stupidity and in one case, two pilots were showing off and unnecessarily putting tourist passenger lives at risk, presumably for the sake of providing "extra thrills".

It wasn't just the rotary wing world, either. The owner of the accommodation we used on South Island kept encouraging me to take my young kids on a jet boat ride on the partly frozen river. I replied that I considered it far too risky, having watched what was going on, especially as the water was freezing and my kids weren't even in their teens at that time. I wouldn't take my kids on the boat because they were driving right at rocks on the bank and veering away at the last second. Extra thrills?

I received some scorn over that, two days running but he had nothing to say on the third day when the local jet boat people killed a young woman visiting NZ on her honeymoon. The boat hit a rocky outcrop and she got thrown out. They couldn't get this poor woman out of the undertow and she drowned in front of her new husband. They eventually had to use an earth mover to dig out a ramp and a cutting into the river bank to get her body out.

http://www.taic.org.nz/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=Kd7VnuNUH4U%3D&tabid=253&language=en-US

BTW, given chance, I would have stayed in NZ because I loved the place!

[Bell_ringer]

From the gist of the posts, it sounds like what is being discussed is culture, rather than a sweeping generalisation of those that frequent the land of sheep lovers (no not Wales). :uhoh:

Culture exists everywhere, not just the island of mostly decent Sauvignon Blanc.

[krypton_john]

Crab, once again you are confusing a slavish adherence to SOP with danger.

I honestly wonder if you would jump off a cliff if the manual said you could do so.

[[email protected]]

So why do we have SOP? Is it just to ruin peoples' fun flying or might it be to help prevent dimwits making the same mistakes over and over because they 'know better'?

[SASless]

Given the choice he would not.....but if it was required by SOP's then you would hear him yelling "Geronimo!" As he went off the cliff!




Crab, once again you are confusing a slavish adherence to SOP with danger.

I honestly wonder if you would jump off a cliff if the manual said you could do so.

[krypton_john]

We have SOPs because it's better than not having them. But that doesn't make them perfect or infallible.

[EMS R22]

Take that article with a grain of salt! John Sinclair is a joke.

[fadecdegraded]

I agree 100% with you EMS, not only is John Sinclair a joke but the helicopter association as well. Just a bunch of old boys lining there pockets.
That article is a load of rubbish and doesn't reflect the majority of the industry at all.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

I have worked very closely with some Kiwis both in UK NS and in Karratha. They definitely did not match the generalisations described in this thread. Solid professional pilots with great humour and friendship. I liked them a lot.

Crab, I loved your response re SOPs a classic simplistic description of an SMS or SOP system. If I may I would like to use that description in my future training.

[[email protected]]

DB - feel free:)

Another description is 'Handrails, not Handcuffs' for SOPs - maybe more akin to the Pirate Code (more guidance than a code);)

KJ - you have SOPs and try to adhere to them for safety's sake - sometimes you are presented with a situation way outside the 'Standard' - then you have to use your judgement - that is where it often goes horribly wrong because peoples' judgement is often impaired by many perceived pressures - the classic red mist, pressonitis or target fixation for example.

[SuperF]

would be interesting to see you guys that are bagging the AIA, put your names on here so that all those "joke, Old Boys" know who NOT to hire when you come looking for a job. Especially considering that the AIA represents something like 50-60% of helicopter operators within NZ and about 80% of the helicopter capacity!

All that has been stated is there is an element of rogue, cowboy type behaviour that does not belong in a professional industry. If that comment bites a bit to hard, then maybe it is a bit to close to home. Every industry has them, doctors, lawyers, car dealers... you name one industry that doesn't have good and bad operators, and why shouldn't we all try to act and fly more professionally each day?

[fadecdegraded]

Hey superF who says anyone is looking for a job, seen the light years ago and got out of the NZ industry, to many jokes and old boys dictating the way the industry was going.
If you are who I'm guessing you are you are probably one of them.
But then again it's only a guess.
Why don't you post your real name so everyone knows who not to work for!!!.

[SuperF]

Wasn't referring to anyone specifically looking for jobs, just in general as there were at least four having a go. Just everyone who is so anti the larger or longer time operators having a bigger say in the industry.

I will let you into a secret on how to get into the "old boys" club in the New Zealand Helicopter industry, just survive more than 10 years. The industry is full of people that have been and gone, that is pilots, operators and engineers that start and disappear after a few years.

I cannot understand the logic in the posts here. Supposedly the NZ Heli industry is a joke. The Heli Association reports on a CAA study that finds that Pilots and Operators in NZ say that there is still an element of rule breaking, and the Association thinks that there isn't room for that in the industry and we should all try to raise our standards, and then you criticize the very people who are trying to raise the standards etc.....

Very hard to please some people.:ugh: