Captain 330/340 transfer policy

[CTWO]

Hi there,
I am sure you heard the news: bus skippers seating on the RHS of the fat lady to build PIC hours,whilst maintaining terms and conditions....care to comment?

[Cloud Bunny]

Hi there,
I am sure you heard the news: bus skippers seating on the RHS of the fat lady to build PIC hours,whilst maintaining terms and conditions....care to comment?
All the money, none of the responsibility - to some no doubt would sound like Christmas!!

[sluggums]

It sucks, big time, but as long as you don't have any change to your terms and conditions, AND, don't have to go through an NaC course then it might be the best job in EK. However the Oxygen thieves in the bouncy castle almost certainly won't do that...

Another nail in the coffin of morale at EK...

[CTWO]

All the 330/340captains with less then 2000 hrs PIC on 330/340 received an email:

you'll go RHS "as a captain" acting FO maintaining terms and conditions, for a period dependent upon your PIC time ( 24months/1500 hrs if with <1000 330 PIC ;18months/1000hrs if with <2000hrs). When time is up, you'll go trough a " Captain transfer course" (whatever that means)upon approval by the A380 Command review board.
Funny part is that is not retroactive....those whom just CCQed without requirements are SAFE......

[The Guru]

Let me understand this new policy correctly…..


We hired a number of DECs to the A330. We hired them because they were apparently experienced on the Airbus.
We gave them all the company induction training, an Airbus A330 type rating course, and a Airbus A330 command course.
We didn’t communicate with our pilots for a whole year, and during that time we discreetly retired over 20 Airbus aircraft without telling anyone what the plan would be, contrary to our company policies.
Then after using these DECs for less than 6 months, we transferred some of them to the Airbus A380 as Captains without any serious operational incident occurring and they are SAFE!

However, because a local captain flying a Boeing was involved in our first ever hull loss, we then decided that any remaining DECs and long-time Captains would be relegated to the right seat of the A380 and make them First Officers until 1000 hrs A380 time AND 18 months on type AND 3 successful proficiency checks.:eek::eek::eek: Sure, we will let them keep their existing benefits, but we will need them to go through another selection review board and upgrade course in a few years.:sad::sad::sad:

Surely this policy needs to be reviewed and explained to the mere workers. Is there any guarantee that there will not be yet another policy change, and when you fail the subsequent upgrade course, you will be salary deducted the extra pay for time spent in the right hand seat?:ouch::ouch::ouch:

The G.

[springbok449]

Wtf?! Is it April fools day or something?

[CTWO]

..nope...unfortunately is black on white...I reckon that since this affects only a small part of the left seater population, it will be tolerated,digested and eventually forgotten..." no one cares of the fallen tree if it is not in his backyard"..

[MosEisley]

Lets be honest, the 330/340 guys have been getting the short end for a long time and no one has said a word. This will not be any different.

[sluggums]

The recent DEC's have not yet been transferred. They will go as FO's. What a shambles this place has become.

[CTWO]

you got that wrong sluggums...some dec's have already ccqed..and hence they are SAFE.
I would be more "troubled" considering those "regular" captains with almost 1900 EK PIC and 9 yrs in EK ...

[sluggums]

Ok, fair enough. DEC's from 3-5 years ago...

[CTWO]

5yrs ago no dec....3 years ago they all transitioned,with very few exceptions...only dec's left are from oct 2015 onward..8/10 guys may be?...what about the "regular"?

[yardman]

The boys in question are already starting to bail like rats on a sinking ship, and rightly so. Good luck to them all. None of that deserve this. It's just rude.

[fatbus]

If I was 10 years younger and still on the 330 I know where I would be. $$$

[EK-or-bust]

Shocking, sad and rude.
Like MosEisley writes, the smallbus chaps have been getting the short end of the stick for too long a time. This is just adding insult to injury.

[777boyindubai]

A new and disgraceful low for the hardest working guys. I never believed the monkeys in EGHQ could drill any deeper.

[kingpost]

Why can't they go to the 777 as Captains?

[littlejet]

And what's so fn special about 380?

[Dropp the Pilot]

I think we all know there is nothing special whatsoever about the 380. There are however certain individuals in A380 Training who are very, very, special indeed.

[fatbus]

This new policy has nothing to do with the training department.

[CTWO]

I think many actions could have taken to "react" to the sad ek521 episode,if this is the concern ....to be honest we do not know...but it would appear like they are looking into raising the experience level on the fat lady (only the fat lady..I dare to add and only starting from sep 18th onward)...fair enough: even if I am one of the screwed one, I remember a few year back, those little bus skipper whom to jump the fence had to accrue 4yrs command 330/340 and 3000 hrs...Nevertheless they never had to seat on the right ,nor go again trough screening and "captain transfer course" (by the way: where is it again on the OMD?)

What bothers me the most is why not make us cruise captain or having us augmenting? Still another SAFE captain would be in charge and the cost would be probably less (now in theory we could have a fat lady with 4 FD7 pay grade in the cockpit...)...Logging CM2 time is a professional suicide and we know that...

I want to go even further..what about new made fat bus captain? and what about 777? Now experience is measured in tons and not in hours?

I believe I would have loved to learn a big deal from my colleagues on the 380 and I would have loved to augment even 3 years if that was asked to make them feel SAFE...now I just want to bail out. Forgive me guys but I think that no one will care about the few of us affected by this BS...and soon all will be forgotten in the usual numbness.

[777-200LR]

Interesting reading. A while back I wondered how they would deal with the eventual close of the 330/340 fleet. The cruise relief captain is not a bad ideal, but then you are admitting that the only issue to your conversion 'inexperience' is takeoff and landing (which it probably just is).

Would there be any takers if LHS 777 was offered? Not the most cost effective option, but it is the most under staffed fleet.

[CTWO]

Cruise relief implies someone else is signing the book...this is the issue apparently: who is in charge,not who lands ( a cadet can land,can't he?)...

I reverse the question 777-200LR: would you take the RHS on the A380?

[airbusgirl66]

Yes, I know several who would be takers for 777 LHS over sitting RHS on the 380. It's honestly a more valuable type rating at this point anyways.

Then the "more experienced" 3000 hr.777 guys could transfer over to the 380 LHS...after all, why would you want to put an 3-4 yr. 330/340 Capt in that slot??? :rolleyes:

[VLS with ice]

This is what happens when policies are made by people who haven't flown an aircraft in years, or not all, and spend their time in an office instead. Total disconnect. It's a :mad: joke.

[Xulu]

Just to remind you that those 'demoted' will be working 60 hrs a month in the RHS on full Captains T's & C's. It will be the best job in the company, don't feel too bad for them.

So I assume that senior FO's on the 330/340 about to upgrade will have to obtain 2000hrs on type now too to avoid leapfrogging their colleagues, or is it still 2500hrs as per the book?

[flareflyer]

Pilots........our own worst enemies......
And you Xulu are a clear example.......

[Praise Jebus]

Given these guys will have 380 P2 on their license for up to 4 years it severely limits opportunities else where...

[CautionShortRunway]

When airbus closes the a380 line completely it's a real dead end for the RHS A380.

[Xulu]

Yes, clearly Flareflyer.

You can choose to focus on the positives, or the negatives. That's all. Perhaps if I add a few dots to the end of my sentence you may understand that.....

[GA Button]

Just to remind you that those 'demoted' will be working 60 hrs a month in the RHS on full Captains T's & C's. It will be the best job in the company, don't feel too bad for them.

So I assume that senior FO's on the 330/340 about to upgrade will have to obtain 2000hrs on type now too to avoid leapfrogging their colleagues, or is it still 2500hrs as per the book?p

Xulu- as one of those affected, I find your "best job" comment offensive.

You make the assumption that I don't enjoy the responsibility that comes with a command - I do.

You also assume that I would somehow relish giving that up for a minimum of 18 months just to be made to go hoop jumping again for no reason - I do not.

Think more carefully before posting your ill thought out opinions.

[CTWO]

I personally agree with Flareflyer and GA Button.

Xulu, I reckon you have your reasons and I do appreciate your bitterness. You have my sincere sympathy.

Certainly though you leave me with a question: Do you really think that "a trouble shared is a trouble halved"? Dos it make you feel better to see colleagues senior then you are being mis-treated? Where this pattern bring you? Does it make your life or career any better?

Unfortunately it is true what Flareflier posted:Pilots........our own worst enemies......

[CTWO]

By the way, any comment is appreciated and thank you for yours Xulu...
I started this thread to know what people would think about this "new policy" , so I asked for it...

[WB1900]

increase of expierence


sorry to repeat myself


OMA required 2000hr widebody prefered airbus prior to EK to be a direct entry 380 FO.
recruitment for DEC required 7000hr total and 3000hr command on 55t plus(not necessarily airbus)


Who is NOT qualified to be a 380 captain
FO with 3000+ hr on EK airbus in the EK network coming from 330/340, including 1000 to 1500hr 380
Com with multiple years command on 330/340


what are the high risk phases of a flight. so far i know taxi,T/O and landing. what have we done now
instead of appreciating the expierence of doing a hight rate of sectors on a widebody we are defining the expierence level to the MTOW and to the possible age of the candidate.


who is qualified to be 380 commander
FO with no widebody expierence prior to EK, and the minimum time (arround 2000hr total flight time EK, equals max 1500 stick time 380)
B777 Commander with no or minimum airbus expierence which is years back, in the worst case not even 330/340, it might be 310 time.
Pilots who only flew to DEST where ATC is on a high standard, the airports are fitted with large scale runways usually flat areas at sea level, easy to accomodate a 380.


conclusion
the less airbus widebody expierence you have in EK and prior, the more you are qualified to be a 380 captain. And the more you are able to sleep or watch movies in the bunk the better your chances to be an upgrade nominee.


does that make sense or is it logic, I dont know

[CTWO]

A deafening silence as expected..... nobody cares but the few miserable affected... office is a steel wall ..

We have been penalized by the misfortune of operating a dying fleet ,forcing us to fly MFF 50 hrs a months for the last few years, with 2hrs sectors and 25 cycles in war places and monsoon weather, all in the "wee small hors of the morning"...but this is not enough to accrue experience...we need to be SAFE to be allowed to fly the big bus....

this is one of the saddest thing that I have seen in this line of job...we touched the bottom of the barrel and we keep on digging because we are way passed scraping..

I guess no much else to say. Hello tomorrow.

[WB1900]

somebody said it already here - nobody id deafer than the one who does not want to listen.:sad:

[glofish]

The poor 340 guys have all my sympathy. EK is definitely the naked emperor and think their clothes are still the most beautiful on earth, although the sight is sickening.

But some thoughts on here are somewhat strange:

Yes, I know several who would be takers for 777 LHS over sitting RHS on the 380. It's honestly a more valuable type rating at this point anyways.

Then the "more experienced" 3000 hr.777 guys could transfer over to the 380 LHS...after all, why would you want to put an 3-4 yr. 330/340 Capt in that slot???

Suddenly the much bashed T7 becomes attractive again to busdrivers (:eek:)
Furthermore, which T7 driver do you honestly think would apply to transfer onto an animal with a death spell? (:ugh:)
.... or do you suggest they should be forced? You know, the ones that apparently had such a horrible outcome on transition courses?

[airbusgirl66]

The only reason it might be attractive is because you continue with your command, and it gives you more options should you not wish to stay here, than sitting right seat on a 380 for who knows how long. Which would you prefer?

Furthermore, I would not want to force any guys to flip over who didn't wish to go, I was just being sarcastic as to the fact that they took 777 Capt's over a few years ago. Hence the eye roll at the end of my comment that you chose not to include in the above. Nice.

[WB1900]

the other question is


when now the downgraded, at full Command pay futher FO will be there for 18month 1000hr and and 3 PPC. LIC entry P2 and modified NAC course to recover the command position.
But what happens than if the 380 will not be contiunued and the company sudenly has the brilliant idea in 18 month they will not need anymore comanders for a reasonable amount of time
Boom, and suddenly our expierenced 330/340 captains find themself on a permanent FO role.
next possible step will that somebody will find out that somebody else made the wise deceision that a FO gets a command pay, and because in the office are never failures made, its only the FOs failure that he get the command pay. Make a tought on whats the next step than, because we need to save money. Or will all FO get an pay raise to command level because they have been delayed, cheated and overtaken. I am sure plan B will not happen.

[WB1900]

quick question


what happens to the 330 DEC who had been already moved to the 380, they dont have the hours either. Are they save? intressting enough some of them are trainers

[120feet]

That is exactly what will happen.
There is a reason the policy has the 330/340 Captains passing a Captains Review Board in order to return to the left seat. This is because after 3 PPC's and 24 months and 1000 hours, these captains will find the 380 fleet has shrunk by 20-30 aircraft. Since there will not be any 380 left seats available there will be no Captains Review. The 24 months policy will expire and the Captains will be returned to FO pay. And once again the pilot group will remain indifferent because it wasn't them. The famous EK carrot and the stick. Keep em around long enough to commit them. Anyone who thinks with EK who is loosing millions flying around half full 380's will continue operating those A/C at the current level is wrong. The captains are not getting the left seat due to lack of experience, they are not getting the left seat because there will be a reduction in 380's. These 330 captains will not see a left seat again for a long long time, and after 18-24 months will back to FO pay. Yes it is speculation on my part, but honestly could anyone truthfully say they could not see this playing out exactly this way.

[Talparc]

120 feet: totally agree
at present they try to hire Lufthansa 380 TRE's and offering them a huge( 1Mio €) sign on bonus if they stay for more than 4 years.
So far nobody took the offer!

[Jetkopite]

120feet absolutely spot on... I feel the 380 could be the end of EK if they are not careful.. They need to seriously look at cancelling their orders and maybe ground some planes if they are to move forward..

[Talparc]

Olbie:
the number is not made up.
PM me for the evidence
But numbers are not important here, get the point: They pay TREs to sign up while you get nothing additional. But hope for your payrise-good luck

[ExDubai]

Don't know if Talparc's number is right. But the rumour that EK shows a "big fat" carrot to LH TRE's is around for some time....

[CTWO]

120ft Talparc Exdubai olbie Jetkopite
thanks...

Honestly...do you have something more than conspiracy theory ?

What about writing together with us ("dirty dozen times 5") a letter to the 9th floor to express disgust or at least sympathy for you fellow colleaugues?

...what a sadness...

[Talparc]

CTWO
PM me if you want evidence unfortunately this is no conspiracy theory!

[Kamelchaser]

I tend to agree about the theories about the future of the 380, which will affect what happens to these guys going across to the RHS.

Rumour has it that the majority of the 380 routes are losing hundreds of millions of dirhams a month (overall). If that's the case, clearly CM's first job will be to deal with that.

It gives EK a chance to bail out of future 380 deliveries and save face. They'll negotiate a deal with Airbus, who will be happy to shut down the production line and transfer orders across to the 350.

The whole thing will delay further deliveries to EK, which is exactly what they need right now....a huge drop in passenger numbers and not enough pilots..the perfect solution for a complete halt in expansion while blaming everyone else.

Interesting times ahead.

[CTWO]

Guys, again rumors do not help...

So far I got no evidence, only gossips and rumors and "trough the grapevine" via PM....

Letters would help....

[Jack D]

KC makes a good point , I think we all know that the massive 380 orders incl showers ! Was a bridge too far .
I'm no finance expert but I ask myself why this strategy wasn't followed by other carriers ? Are Ek so brilliant ? STC has staked his reputation on this & talks a good game but even with fuel prices at a low point , is it a success ? I'm not sure , surely a token 10 - 20 or so airframes as a " jewel in the crown" marketing strategy might have been sufficient . Lots going on behind the curtain & it is a nice pax experience ... But I still sense that the " pissing contest " mentality got the better of business nous ...

[ExDubai]

Guys, again rumors do not help...

So far I got no evidence, only gossips and rumors and "trough the grapevine" via PM....

Letters would help....
O.K, I'm send an Email to the LH CP and ask him to confirm. Do you want it on the LH letterhead?

Yes it is a rumour, but I don't know why somebody asked me about EK, Dubai and the qol if he doesn't think about the option.

[donpizmeov]

To the rocket scientists that believe that the shafting of the A334 skippers is directly related to the demise of the 380 fleet, can you please explain why upgrades are still underway on it? Much less time and money to take a 334 skipper than upgrade an FO. And we all know dollar is king in these parts.
Grow up. Your colleagues are being shafted. Take your paranoia elsewhere.

[ExDubai]

To the rocket scientists that believe that the shafting of the A334 skippers is directly related to the demise of the 380 fleet, can you please explain why upgrades are still underway on it? Much less time and money to take a 334 skipper than upgrade an FO. And we all know dollar is king in these parts.
Grow up. Your colleagues are being shafted. Take your paranoia elsewhere.
@Don Any idea why this happens?

[Jack D]

I recall all 380 F/O,s had to iupgrade initially on the 330/340 prior to transferring to the LHS 380 ? . Then to accommodate a few local Captains this policy was changed ...( hours needed etc . ) Headline News , upgrade celebrations and so on ! Now it seems everyone can " have a go " except for many 330 / 340 captains ....
Confused !

[Jack D]

Just to clarify their first command was the A380 .... Thoughts ?

[The.Humble.Guy]

Just to clarify their first command was the A380 .... Thoughts ?

And your point is? Just wondering if you're one of the stereotypical 777 guys who are always first to point out that the 380 is "just another plane" but are even quicker to cry like a baby when A380 FO's get their first command on the jet.

[donpizmeov]

Ex dubai. Until recently you required 3000hr command on an EK type to move onto the 380 as a Capt.

As the 330/340 wound down, it became obvious that some Capts on that fleet could not achieve this. So recently this requirement was exempted.

It would appear that this exemption and exemption of reduction of hours to start command course on any fleet has been removed since the 777 burnt out in front of the HQ.

The option of sending Capts to the right seat is badly thought out. Transitioning them onto the 777 would have been much fairer.

There is no conspiracy nor boogey man behind the door. Just simple bad management.

[WB1900]

@Don


intressting that a commander needs 3000hr to go over, while a FO is in CCP with just 2000hr EK 380 and not a single minute widebody before that. expierence way less than the Commander.


and does that mean they will downgrade Commander which are already flying the fat lady. some of them joined end 2013 and moved over end last year or earlier this year. it is impossible that they are close to one of these new requirements. some of them are even trainers. so what will happen to them.


This is not only bad management

[Avid Aviator]

But many of the guys being shifted from A330/340 to the RHS have well over 3000 hours EK Command. Where is the logic or benefit of this shoot-from-the-hip policy??
My sympathies to those who have been royally shafted on this.

[Avid Aviator]

Lots of root causes behind the recent B777 crash. While no one yet knows all the answers, I'm pretty certain that a lack of A380 time for the Commander was NOT a factor!

[donpizmeov]

I didn't make the rules WB1900, nor do I agree with them. 334 Capts have been shafted with this 3000hr ruling for years. It was only recently exempted.

Avid you sure about that? Its only the fellas with less than 2000hrs command that are being shafted isn't it?

You are correct...non of these changes would have stopped that 777 from crashing.

[WB1900]

@don


Does that mean they will downgrade Commander which are already flying the fat lady. some of them joined end 2013 and moved over end last year or earlier this year. it is impossible that they are close to one of these new requirements. some of them are even trainers. so what will happen to them?

[donpizmeov]

WB you may have missed the bit where I said I didn't make the rules. Nor do I agree with them.

[CTWO]

donpizmeov

you got that right,only guys with less then +2000hrs PIC EK A330/340 are being shafted..

point is those guyshave been sitting on the LHS long enough to accrue 3000+ if not 4000 ,were they flying an A380 or a 777.

For years flying many short sectors, many cycles, low hours ( average 50 a month) with 7-8 days off a month, all night time, all monsoon all was zones...doing MFF on the different birds..copying with old airplanes and snugs, working in **** hole airports,with following handling and ATC..

getting paid less, working much harder...

is that less experience then watching movies and sipping coffee in a ULR augmenting???
are we not SAFE????

I don't know why, but I sense, were you in our shoes your comments would be a little less accommodating...

This is a no sense ,a slap in the face, an insult, something unheard of in the aviation history.

Plus not applied to every captains equally.. why a <2000 hrs PIC 777/380 captain is SAFER then me, to not deserve to seat on the RHS to gain experience and make them feel SAFE?


why not give the possibility to change fleet? why do not make us cruise captain? why another upgrade review and "captain transfer course"? why the shame? why the ****?


...what a sadness...

[CTWO]

only first sentence is for donpizmeov....to clarify

[Rather Be Skiing]

If only Airbus had designed their aircraft with a level of commonality to allow a relatively straightforward transition between types, then EK wouldn't have to implement such a policy. Oh, wait...

[Schnowzer]

This is a no sense ,a slap in the face, an insult, something unheard of in the aviation history.


Eeeeeer not true. Back when Gulf Air crashed in 2001, the EK command criteria went from 4500hrs/competence to 9000hrs/3years before coming back to 6000hrs/3years. Gulf Air didn't change theirs.

In the US to appease the Colgan families the FAA mandated 1500hrs for commercial operations. We all know that was just dumb but the FAA believed something needed to be seen to be done which is the same reason for a Captain having to ask a Grade 2 to come to the cockpit so they can go pee pee.

You clearly believe they are trying to personally shaft you. They are not; they are doing what all managers do, something to be seen to be doing something. But...whilst your frustrations can be understood the way you present them risks vindicating the decision taken.

[Jack D]

And your point is? Just wondering if you're one of the stereotypical 777 guys who are always first to point out that the 380 is "just another plane" but are even quicker to cry like a baby when A380 FO's get their first command on the jet.

As I said I'm just confused at the constant changes to 380 LHS requirements ... In fact I rarely follow the ever moving goalposts but in this case I feel that some of our colleagues have been treated badly . Hasn't occurred to me to cry like a baby though ! .. and some of the posts were very informative regarding required hrs etc . I also believe that Rh to Lhs transitions on type are fine , more experienced carriers than EK have successfully done this , & with the reduction of the 330/340 fleet I suppose there weren't many other options .. There is probably a financial angle as well but unsurprisingly I can't see it .

[CamelRustler]

Errr....Schnowzer

How many of those Captains got downgraded to FO's?
Please feel free to take time to research your answer.

And yes it is an insult. To say my EBL,KBL,TRV,KBL,BSR,PEW added together is worth less than someone who augmented to LAX and flew halfway back.

Eeeeeer....

[CTWO]

Schowzer

" having people with four stripes and 4years WB experience sitting on the RHS as FO and go again trough command upgrade" IS unheard of!
...raising requirement might be something needed to be seen ..although not quite fair..

If this is the case why do not go retroactive and put RHS all the captainss with less then 2000 hrs EK WB PIC time ? How would you like that?

You see, we are the worst enemies of ourselves :if things do not touch you, or you have been screwed somehow,somewhere or somewhat before you instantly get happy to see someone else suffer of unfairness...

talking about frustration and "vindicating decision taken" , may be you misunderstood that my sadness is toward the numbness and the responses of the population,not the fact per se..

As far as I am concerned, nothing can be done except taking a decision at home ,each one with his own family and for the best..of the family..

l have learned many years ago not to hope in rescue coming from unions or pilots or management...

Finally Just consider this "more for your benefit then mine"..today is me;tomorrow ,who knows?

[Toledo]

The entire aviation industry needs to wake up to the fact that using total hours as measure of a pilot's experience (and therefore suitability for a role) is outdated and irrelevant. Number of sectors flown is far more relevant.

Since the advent of long haul and ultra long haul flying, it has been possible to build thousands of hours whilst gaining very little useful experience.

The nature of the flying at Emirates means that many EK pilots have done just that.

The guys who have gained really useful experience on a widebody Airbus in the meantime are now the ones being screwed by this ridiculous policy.

[OMAAbound]

Funnily enough I had a chap from Airbus on the CDG flight a few weeks back. We got talking and basically he said that EK would struggle to carry on with the 380. The ideal use for them is like someone already pointed out, 10 or so with fancy cabins, and Jewell in the fleet etc.

But anyway- why the f*** would a company demote experience 330/340 guys? Surely the whole idea of the similar familiar cockpit design was to assist in such a transfer, not to downgrade etc! I believe BA did this when then acquired the 380 buy having guys off the 320 move over.

OMAAbound

[glofish]

Well considering some one crashed a 777 in front of the HQ they should have changed the requirements on the 777.


Considering that the skipper in question most probably did a transition upgrade (i'm not absolutely sure though), maybe this was a bad idea .....

The 'family ghost' always appears when such transitions retard the personal carreer :{, but there is something to it. AB and B put in quite some effort to make transitions within their product easier (cheaper for company). Pilots however want to be promoted and for that would not deny any equipment change (more doe). Both sides easily swap arguments pro or con to suit their momentary needs. I remember the T7 FOs grinding at the idea of 334 FOs transit upgrading, just as 380 FOs called T7 skippers transiting dangerous.

As i said, there is something to it. Trained and experienced on one philosophy, regarding the complexity of modern aircraft, one might have to remain in that line, as a lot of automatisms and underlying programmation (thus inherent dangers) can be better mitigated (Swiss cheese model).
Same goes with a seat change. The one time we change is the time we get the most training -- upgrade. Downgrades are done with little regard to training needs, short and often unnecessary. I am no fan of seat changes (see the problems AF447 revealed).

Considering the above, i find the actual policy inadequate. The EK 334 skippers are qualified enough to make the jump onto the 380. If they upgraded from the 334 they are more suited to operate the 380, even with only 1000h captaincy, than a T7 skipper with the required hours.

[ibelieveicanfly]

Well if the company would downgrade all 380 captains with less than 2000 pic hours on 380... It would be hundreds of captains downgraded...not an option.
This downgrade story happened already in history in western europe in 2006 or 7 then with the time those concerned left or got promoted again.
In EK most of us have been trapped at least once( twice personnally).
Wouldn't be an insurance problem now after the accident if those criterias are changing? Who knows?

[fliion]

Lots of LHS A330 jobs on the first page of Flightglobal jobs website...didn't even scroll to second page.

https://jobs.flightglobal.com/searchjobs/?Keywords=Captain&radialtown=&LocationId=&RadialLocation=5

The best part is, if you miss the pit (don't laugh!) - you can come back in a couple of years time as a 380 DEC and go through the transition with one of your downgraded mates!


😂
TIC -

sad but stranger things have happened around here

[duststorm]

Good stuff Toledo .
I've read a lot of junk here and your post is right to the point.
Hours as a measure of suitability is utter nonsense.
Moreover, As a point of note : I'd rather be sat in the back with my family of a 380 who's captain is fresh off the ccq and has 15 years experience on 320, 330 and 340.
Verses sat in the back of a triple 7, who's Captain is fresh off the 330 to 777 transfer and has 15 years experience on the 320 330 and 340.
Notice I've made no reference to hours - I'll take the Cm1 with the most time below 10,000ft on a similar type.

[expat400]

The focus on block hours in this industry is madness. If you don't look at number of flights and type of flying block hours says absolutely nothing about your experience.

[Bluffontheriver123]

Camel,

How many of those Captains got downgraded to FO's?
Please feel free to take time to research your answer.

None but then again we also had guys complaining about being stuck on the A310 even though it gave them a command 2 years quicker than their peers! In the past, the rules changed on a whim and instead of having a Captain's pay packet they stayed as FOs flying to just the same crappy destinations that you have been to for another 3 years or so whilst the company employed DECS.

Believe it or not crappy rosters have been around since before you joined, as have DECs and shifting terms and conditions. I actually wouldn't give a toss if I was in the RHS but being paid as a Captain, if the alternative was to be stuck as an FO. For years we argued for bypass pay, it sounds like you have got closer to it than anyone ever before.

Out of interest, how would you feel about a Captain upgraded on the 330 jumping ahead of their more senior peers on the A380 that didn't get upgraded on the 330 before they were then forced into a fleet transfer?

[Schnowzer]

"And yes it is an insult. To say my EBL,KBL,TRV,KBL,BSR,PEW added together is worth less than someone who augmented to LAX and flew halfway back."

I didn't say anything about that! I have been a massive supporter that experience has nothing to do with flying hours, so I am with you on that one, but do you think that has anything to do with it? I also don't think it matters which seat you are in as long as you are fully engaged, experience is experience.

As to downgrades, we have had guys recruited as DECs turned into First Officers on their course and guys passed over for command at will. At various times the 330 has been faster than the 777 and vice versa. I joined and ended up behind all the 777 guys that joined with me but that was just my tough luck. I know many of the early movers to the 380 were really screwed by the change in command criteria after they joined the fleet and ended up years behind their mates on the 777.

[WB1900]

Thanks Don, i understood your point on the rules




I just liked to ask if somebody knows whats going to happen with those DEC from 2013/14 which already shifted to 380, if they are safe or not. I believe they never ever have made 2000 stick time in 2,5 years either on 330 or 380 or on both together. this just out of couriosity w/o any comments who made the rule or how good it is.
i just liked to find out who is effectively effected by this


thanks

[The Turtle]

the amount of abuse the 330/340 people have received is appalling. but why am i surprised. the rules of the game here change daily.

at least the 310 folks got to pick their equipment, as i recall

as posters above had said, the experience gained in back-of-the-clock ops, to difficult airfields.....I'll take that pilot over the 7am departure to EU or augment thousands of hours pilot any day.

what am i missing

[WB1900]

I think that says a lot


company grew by 373 pilots since Dec2015
320 Pilots left us in the same time

[ExDubai]

I think that says a lot


company grew by 373 pilots since Dec2015
320 Pilots left us in the same time
There are reasons why they lowered the requirements. Interesting times ahead...

[cerbus]

WB

I know this place sucks but are you really saying that 320 pilots have left this hell hole in 10 months?

"company grew by 373 pilots since Dec2015
320 Pilots left us in the same time"

Yes just about everyone I know has their exit strategy in place and are actively looking to escape but I don't think the company is losing 32 pilots a month.
If the idiots keep up these insane policies the company might get that many pilots to leave but I don't think we are there yet.

[WB1900]

to correct myself, have disappeared from the senoritylist.


scary enough to say that we could be close to a normal airline.


these numbers mean we have hired and trained 690 pilots in 12 month and sure there are still some to come.
but looking at the requirements as the requierments are low, i am wondering if there is still somebody out who wants. now all the TP guys have taken there chance to move to a big jet and i believe who is not here yet will not come at all.


what i like to say is that if all the pilots who left or intend to leave would be here things could nice. Recruitment has done it job but the unbroken greed, and ignorance makes it impossible for the rest.


let compare something else


LH has 120.000 employees and runs something of about 800 airplanes in the group. Average cost per employee over all> USD 110.000/year
800 airplanes with 120.000 Employees


EK has plus minus 65.000 over 240 airplanes. Average cost per employee over all USD 47.000/year


looking into that
LH has:
multiple stations
part time
maternity cover after birth (2 years for pilots and CC)
120 days off per year and 35 or 42 leave days (depending on the age)
Happiness factor 85%


what does EK have
labour is wastly cheaper and still we cannot manage to hold people


why? because of greed and ignorance


makes me feel sad

[CTWO]

Bluffontheriver123

I believe you got that very wrong mate: those who were by passed were not FORCED;
they laughed at us calling us crazy to elect to stay on the small fleet.
We had been given an option.Each one gambled with his own money.
While the big bus gambler enjoyed the next 3-4 years of nice rosters and timing and many days off in beautiful layover locations, we had the wonderful 4 night in a row indian turns and 8 days off.

It might be a matter of pay, but is not: it is matter of being downgraded and having to redo a "transfer course" (whatever that means).

Still stand and is clear to me that to many,you included, this is fair and it is ok to be shafted just because is not you...

B.O.H.I.C.A .

[Bluffontheriver123]

Hi CTWO,

I am not trying to slam you only point out that you are not the only person to feel aggrieved which you clearly believe to be the case. I know you are venting but hey you are not alone. Some of the new joiners and your colleagues were actually essentially forced to the 380, recruited to the 777 or moved at the whim of the management. Some did indeed volunteer to transfer and I see from your post that you seem happy for them to be screwed:

We had been given an option.Each one gambled with his own money.
While the big bus gambler enjoyed the next 3-4 years of nice rosters and timing and many days off in beautiful layover locations, we had the wonderful 4 night in a row indian turns and 8 days off.

Essentially you made a decision at the time which you thought would be of advantage to you as did your colleagues but the rules have changed. The first movers to the 380 were expecting a normal command time but lots of new fences were built after they moved. It has been ever thus, it doesn't make it right but that has been the status quo at EK since the times of TCK and I guarantee the warnings were being touted on PPRUNE before you joined.

But mate you really don't know the meaning of being shafted, you have lost your stripes which pains the ego but thank goodness you are still being paid. 3 years down the line you will have your stripes and not lost financially. That was not the case in the past and I guarantee you many would sign up for your deal in a heartbeat.

SNAFU would work better than BOHICA. I wish you well but I also wish all your colleagues well too.

[CTWO]

Hi CTWO,

I am not trying to slam you only point out that you are not the only person to feel aggrieved which you clearly believe to be the case. I know you are venting but hey you are not alone. Some of the new joiners and your colleagues were actually essentially forced to the 380, recruited to the 777 or moved at the whim of the management. Some did indeed volunteer to transfer and I see from your post that you seem happy for them to be screwed:



Essentially you made a decision at the time which you thought would be of advantage to you as did your colleagues but the rules have changed. The first movers to the 380 were expecting a normal command time but lots of new fences were built after they moved. It has been ever thus, it doesn't make it right but that has been the status quo at EK since the times of TCK and I guarantee the warnings were being touted on PPRUNE before you joined.

But mate you really don't know the meaning of being shafted, you have lost your stripes which pains the ego but thank goodness you are still being paid. 3 years down the line you will have your stripes and not lost financially. That was not the case in the past and I guarantee you many would sign up for your deal in a heartbeat.

SNAFU would work better than BOHICA. I wish you well but I also wish all your colleagues well too.

Never been happy of someone else troubles, and I never stated such a thing: If That is your impression from my sentences, probably it is in your mind....
You said some have been forced.. then I am sorry for them.. you see, for me it will never be SNAFU,because the situation is not normal and I do actually give a F*** even of the people who do not think likewise.
Best regards

[120feet]

Bluffon, your ignorance and arrogance are outstanding and you apparently have issues, and I suspect you are either a troll or have opened a new account for other nefarious reasons. Many of the 330 pilots who joined have been here well over 8 years now and trust me they do remember good schedules, and quality of life. And yes they are being shafted to the extreme! The fact you are unable to see this is baffling. You want 43 pilots to essentially bet their careers EK will make them captains again. You want 43 Captains to take EK at their word? Once P2 is placed on their licence they will can not be hired as captain and will be trapped at EK. So they are essentially being forced out. Those who can leave will leave. Sad that EK treats it employees with so little regard. Confusing you are unable to see it!

[donpizmeov]

It is worrying that people so quickly forget how "temporary " measures at EK soon become the rule. To have Capts demoted on fleet transfer is not a thing that is good for anyone.

[sluggums]

Agreed. Forced leave, for example.

[donpizmeov]

The temporary delayed issue of rosters to end of month to help out with SARS. The temporary reduction to 30 days leave to help out after global melt down. We will increase the productivity threshold to 92hrs, and review it later on etc etc.

[WB1900]

it is 43 Captians are effected
25 are DEC, 15 of them are upgraders, which had a delayed upgrade due to DEC


further 25 DEC started in summer 2013 are already tranfered (they dont have the time on there back either) but they already seem to be safe. Sad for those have had a delayed upgrade.


further there are 52 FO still on the A330, 12 of them are 2012 and earlier which face now a long term RHS due the stick time requirement. as well as all delayed transfer FO to 380 which will be overtaken by direct entry FO with less hours.


makes a clear picture - How cares about 148 FO now having to go another 2 years after being between 4 and 6 years in the company.


as i said the less hours you have on the 330/340 in the company the better your chances for a career.

[Rotating Bacon]

for the last 15 years people post here that everybody gets shafted sooner or later in EK, you signed knowingly with the devil, we old-timers warned you

[CTWO]

for the last 15 years people post here that everybody gets shafted sooner or later in EK, you signed knowingly with the devil, we old-timers warned you
..and your point is????

....I heard someone recently talking about the two buckets we carry along embracing "the airline:: "the one for the money and the one for the ****..you got to leave whichever fills up first"... I'll leave you the comment on that...

Nevrtheless, It would appear yours are pretty deep and capacious , since you did not fill any up to the rim.. yet...

May be I was hoping to have your same luck....

I wager when you signed up you did not have a clear picture either...lecturing, my dear friend, is easy with the wisdom of hindsight...

We are both here, I reckon...each one for his own personal reason....and may be I should have known better. Does that add something to the discussion topic?

[CTWO]

..tout est perdu fors l’honneur ....

[Capn Rex Havoc]

So what was the meeting on the 29th like? Any good outcomes? Changes?

[pilotguy1222]

Only got to chat with one guy briefly. His question at the meeting was to JA and asked if they were aware of the resignations this would cause. He said yes and they were "prepared to lose 50%." "We are not short of pilots".

With another twist, the 330 upgrades who transferred to the 380 as CA within the past few months now are having meetings with one of the chief pilots. Doesn't sound good.

Sorry not much, but was a short chat.

[ExDubai]

"We are not short of pilots".


Interesting.....

[777boyindubai]

We are not short of crashes

We are not short of management pilots with landing issues

We are not short of viscous behaviour towards pilots

We are not short of VP and above grades

We are short of experience

We are losing the plot.....

[fatbus]

I don't think any changes that might occur with CM will effect the front line crew for a very long time. It's not the Titanic sinking it's raising it off the bottom.

[CTWO]

Only got to chat with one guy briefly. His question at the meeting was to JA and asked if they were aware of the resignations this would cause. He said yes and they were "prepared to lose 50%." "We are not short of pilots".

With another twist, the 330 upgrades who transferred to the 380 as CA within the past few months now are having meetings with one of the chief pilots. Doesn't sound good.

Sorry not much, but was a short chat.

Are you sure about the meeting of the last ccqed?

[pilotguy1222]

Are you sure about the meeting of the last ccqed?

Positive. Talked on the phone today with someone directly involved.

[Instant Hooligan]

PG, Have they finished the transition yet or still on the course?

[pilotguy1222]

Finished. The class varies by a week or so, but I would say all have been done for a month at least. The notice of this came via email. Nothing on the roster to indicate.
I will know the details on the 3rd after his meeting.

[fatbus]

Vote with your feet ! That's the only satisfaction you will get from EK.

[Jack D]

Interesting indeed .
As if JA would know ! Inept past manpower planning estimates bare this out surely . Veiled threats are a common defensive posture response
A form of mimicking the management defensive strategy ; 50 % is unusually precise don't you think ?
Unless something is afoot with a fleet reduction policy to fit CM ,s plan ( discussed in the gents toilet apparently ) see the email post v funny ! , conspiracy theorists go ahead, endless material , that's what this forum is for . Sorry for the guys affected by this , truly .

[CTWO]

Finished. The class varies by a week or so, but I would say all have been done for a month at least. The notice of this came via email. Nothing on the roster to indicate.
I will know the details on the 3rd after his meeting.
.. the meeting will go like this...
after a powerpoint presentation (yes, you read it right!!!), they will be told :
"-airline life is a b****,take it or leave it;
-could have been worse, you could have lost T&C's;
- we have plenty of captains and if we loose you is just the manpower for 2 ULR birds: not a big deal...;
- things will not change, but do not worry: will report this meeting upstairs;
-BTW, give us back credit card and cell phone."

Sorry for the other guys...sincerely..I hope this will not affect you..

[WB1900]

Wait who is getting possible upgrades in the near future. and look who can transfer fleet, then look who is downgraded and compare the numbers in the seniorty list.
eventual there will be a little down size an than compare the numbers with the article in AIN.
lets see if somebody out there has the same theory if have.

[CTWO]

...people removed from their 380 upgrade course, whilst new "meetings" are scheduled for people already on the LHS...interesting week ahead for the airbus fleet...

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

Any more news on the gcaa imposed age 35 limit for P1?

Will the under age guys loose their commands?

[fatbus]

If implemented by GCAA ( which I doubt) all those under would be put in the RHS. That's why it's not a GCAA thing. Only rumour .

[CTWO]

It has been made well clear at the meeting: it is not GCAA.

[X-BleedOpen]

CTWO,

Did they say at the meeting this is really happening? I've already sent my CV but just thinking if I should put my apartment for sale.

[General Dogsbody]

Organisations with a healthy climate typically exhibit:

• Integration of personal and organisational goals
• Justice in treatment and equitable practices
• Mutual trust, consideration and support among different levels
• Open discussion of problems and conflict
• Acceptance of the psychological contract between both parties
• Equitable system of rewards
• Opportunities for growth
• Concern for quality of working life
• Sense of identity with and loyalty to the organisation

[CTWO]

CTWO,

Did they say at the meeting this is really happening? I've already sent my CV but just thinking if I should put my apartment for sale.
It is definitely happening that A330/340 skippers with less then 2000 hrs EK PIC time are going RHS.

[777boyindubai]

General. As you allude to, NONE of this are applicable to the Costa Dwellers in the Bouncy Castle.....

[fatbus]

He was referring to the age restrictions.

330 Capt > 2000 HR bounced to the RHS, that is an EK implemented restriction

[pilotguy1222]

Ok, so it is official. All the recent 380ccq's are going back the RHS. Sounds like the same conditions as the 330/340 capts

[CTWO]

Ok, so it is official. All the recent 380ccq's are going back the RHS. Sounds like the same conditions as the 330/340 capts

No one with less then 2000 Ek PIC time is SAFE.......

BOHICA

[donpizmeov]

This is very sad news. Think long and hard, and if able, non-emotionally on how you are going to proceed fellas.

[fatbus]

Does anyone know about NAC's on the 380? Restrictions or requirements

What is happening at EK?

[Rather Be Skiing]

...

What is happening at EK?

That is a very good question. One has to wonder if there is a downsizing in plan. Is there to be a change to the fleet plan and specifically the 380?

With a huge void of information from the company, one can only speculate.

It makes for a very challenging cicumstance for those pilots affected. How does one make any kind of informed decisions with, essentially, zero information?

I hope all are able to find a solution that provides them as positive an outcome as possible.

[CTWO]

That is a very good question. One has to wonder if there is a downsizing in plan. Is there to be a change to the fleet plan and specifically the 380?

With a huge void of information from the company, one can only speculate.

It makes for a very challenging cicumstance for those pilots affected. How does one make any kind of informed decisions with, essentially, zero information?

I hope all are able to find a solution that provides them as positive an outcome as possible.

From W C @ Road to Command Forum (3/10/16):

a. Current eligibility policy stays, and
b. Newly upgraded CAs not meeting requirements currently being discussed by mgt, and
c. 35yr age limit currently being discussed by mgt, and
d. Projected rate of 126 A380 upgrades this year, and his 'guess' is that any shortfall of eligible CAs to be met by taking from B777 but not yet confirmed.

[Cloud Bunny]

Well certainly the latest rumour on galley fm (and I'm sure it's been mentioned on here) is the transfer of 380 orders to the 350 to keep Airbus sweet. As a fleet plan that kinda makes sense.
However, whatever the reasons for this latest abuse of the Airbus guys, it is quite simply disgusting and shows the utter contempt. It also sets a worrying precedent for all of us in this company across all the fleets particularly as JA has now stood up in front of a room full of guys and effectively said they couldn't give a monkies if the guys leave as a result of this. Budgeting for a 50% loss in crew clearly indicates at possible changes in fleet planning.

[777boyindubai]

A new low. All the people who used to defend JA have now seen his true colours....

[donpizmeov]

CB, from a good source, no 777 deliveries next financial year. Some earlier than originally planned retirements. 380 deliveries to be halved in same period. Excess on 777 to be transferred to 380. Time will tell.

[Schnowzer]

As always the information vacuum creates unnecessary stress. Looking at the 380 I can't see us fulfilling the orders as while great to fly on, they are too big for many of our routes so the 350-1000ish looks pretty good. MFFd to the 380 so that we can keep capacity on the slot restricted routes and maximize crew utilization.

Maybe hubris is finally coming home to roost in a more competitive market place.

[CTWO]

As always the information vacuum creates unnecessary stress. Looking at the 380 I can't see us fulfilling the orders as while great to fly on, they are too big for many of our routes so the 350-1000ish looks pretty good. MFFd to the 380 so that we can keep capacity on the slot restricted routes and maximize crew utilization.

Maybe hubris is finally coming home to roost in a more competitive market place.
.... sorry.. and how is that relevant to the topic?

[Schnowzer]

.... sorry.. and how is that relevant to the topic?

It's called commentary and relates directly to previous posts on this thread, many of which you contributed which also deviate from the original topic.

The answer to all your questions lies directly in the future manpower requirement which, if other posters are to be believed, is diminishing. Likley it will stay in flux until a decision is taken on the 350/787 and that may well directly affect the available slots.

Hopefully the rumored delivery delays above do not actually happen which means those presently affected will not be further delayed.

[General Dogsbody]

380 and 350 are not MFF

330 and 350 are but the 330 fleet will be gone before a decision IF any is made.

My moneys on the 787

[Schnowzer]

380 and 350 are not MFF

330 and 350 are but the 330 fleet will be gone before a decision IF any is made.

My moneys on the 787

You are absolutely right but according to Airbus, the 350 to 380 course is 5 days and the 330 to 350, 8. If a CTR was required I am pretty sure it would be accommodated.

Anyway best of luck.

[CTWO]

[QUOTE]It's called commentary and relates directly to previous posts on this thread, many of which you contributed which also deviate from the original topic.

The answer to all your questions lies directly in the future manpower requirement which, if other posters are to be believed, is diminishing. Likley it will stay in flux until a decision is taken on the 350/787 and that may well directly affect the available slots.

Hopefully the rumored delivery delays above do not actually happen which means those presently affected will not be further delayed.
Schnowzer is online now Report Post /QUOTE]

thank you..now I feel much better.

FYI I have no questions, nor I am spreading rumors or gossips: only bitter facts.

I only asked who your comment was relevant: may be I am little behind...you see, I have no time to fantasize on future Airplane acquisitions..I have got a family to worry about.

No hard feelings.

[fatbus]

Don't let this thread drift into a 350/787 debate. Just think of fleet reduction , low time Capts being downgraded , 777 Capts transfer to the 380 to balance the numbers. Junior capt on the 777 might not be safe.. something big is looming and it's not good!!!

[CTWO]

well said.
...but we know our colleagues...what to do? it is not a ligthning if it doesn't strike your roof...

[DCS99]

Downsizing?

http://m.gulfnews.com/business/aviation/dubai-international-to-be-world-s-busiest-airport-by-2020-ceo-1.1905832

Size matters in the ME.
Someone tell CM.

[Cloud Bunny]

CB, from a good source, no 777 deliveries next financial year. Some earlier than originally planned retirements. 380 deliveries to be halved in same period. Excess on 777 to be transferred to 380. Time will tell.

I'd heard similar Don. To take it further I'd heard no more actual expansion in the 777 fleet after the orders have been completed and the 777X will merely be a replacement to the 300er's.
I agree it appears something is definitely brewing and I think this new low with the 330/340 guys is just the beginning. I'm not sure that there will be any manpower reduction per se (as we don't have enough as it is), but certainly a period of consolidation and a slow down in expansion looks likely. It would be interesting to see now though how they could ever possibly transfer 777 Capts to the LHS on the 380 without giving them a few years in the RHS first!

[electricdeathjet]

Is there any evidence that LHS <2000hrs 380 guys are being called in? I thought they were safe? How ridiculous!

How is the company going to retrain all these guys, some 330 captains still don't have transfer course dates yet, December/January is likely after 5 months of literally zero flying.

Why is it so hard for them to communicate with us?

[General Dogsbody]

We are living in a Parallel Universe:

New Delhi: In an attempt to prevent poaching, low-cost carrier SpiceJet has decided to increase salary of its pilots by flat Rs 1 lakh.

Termed as "loyalty and continuity allowance", the raise comes at a time when 'old' Indian airlines are struggling to retain their pilots and stop them from switching over to either new airlines or Gulf carriers (which give tax-free salaries).

"SpiceJet has over 500 pilots and we raised their salary in one stroke on Thursday to bring them at par with the best in the industry. Pilots from other airlines can come to us," said a senior official. While a co-pilot and captain's monthly package is in the range of Rs 2-2.5 lakh and Rs 5-9 lakh respectively, this amount will go up by a lakh now.

Another SpiceJet official said the airline reported a profit of Rs 149 crore in the quarter ended June 30, 2016, up 104% from Rs 73 crore in the same period last year, and it wanted to share this with its pilots.

The salary hike comes three months after the LCC offered to buy luxury cars of up to Rs 25 lakh for its pilots and allowed them to retain the vehicle if they stayed with the airline for four years. SpiceJet plans to place a big order of planes, estimated to be around 100 aircraft. "At a time when we are going to increase our fleet size, we need to retain pilots," said the senior official.The fight to retain pilots has intensified in recent months. 'Old' airlines like IndiGo and Air India have asked the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) to raise pilots' notice period from six months to a year. Pilots, cutting across all airlines, want the DGCA approved six-month notice period to be halved to three months. The new Tata airlines, including Vistara, are against raising the notice period.

SpiceJet plans to make use of the upcoming regional connectivity policy where the government will subsidise such flights. The LCC, along with AI subsidiary Alliance Air and Jet Airways has a fleet of turboprops which can be used for regional flying. "We need pilots and we will do all that required to retain them and attract more," said the SpiceJet official

[electricdeathjet]

What's this got to do with the price of fish?

[JAYTO]

Everyone with no idea seems to have an opinion about what's happening. So it must be my turn

This is what's going to happen.

The problem is the right seat of the 380. Aircraft keep coming and they need to fill the seats. Most of the new joiners, due lack of experience are going to the 777. So they have a few options to keep guys in the 380 right seat.
Step 1. Most of the 330 guys will go RHS 380.
Step 2. Put an age limit on 380 upgrades.
Step 3. Downgrade 380 captains who don't meet the new requirements.
Step 4. Bring the highly experienced 777 captains over to the 380

There will be further upgrades on the 380 if you meet the requirments. Any shortfall will be filled with 777 captains.
The 777 upgrade and new hire process will continue.

At some point there will be an announcement that the 380s are being converted to 350. With deliveries starting a couple years later. This will be done in a way to save face. It will be airbuses fault and will have nothing to do with the great management team. They would prefer 787 but they are stuck in a massive 380 order that they can't get out of other than converting to something else.

There will be winners and losers in this whole process. They don't care who is who.

That's what is going to happen. Or maybe not. I really don't know either.

[Rather Be Skiing]

well said.
...but we know our colleagues...what to do? it is not a ligthning if it doesn't strike your roof...


What are you implying specifically? That your colleagues won't do anything to help their brethren?

If that is your inference, what would you have any of them do?

No unions, no labour law of note and punitive management leaves little room for action. The only recourse, as noted by many, is stay or leave.

[CTWO]

What are you implying specifically? That your colleagues won't do anything to help their brethren?

If that is your inference, what would you have any of them do?

No unions, no labour law of note and punitive management leaves little room for action. The only recourse, as noted by many, is stay or leave.

I am implying that while I am losing what I have worked so hard for , someone has the time to do "commentary " on 787 and 350 acquisition or still asking if this is really happening.
I have bad news for you: this is really happening and except for same very brave 330/340 FO no one stuck his neck out. That' s it.
Talking about resources , you are again talking about my resources , not yours.

[Talparc]

Why is it so hard for them to communicate with us?

Because they don't want, don't care and don't need to. They just want you get used to not communicate with you to train you to absorb more uncommunicated crap in the future.

[fatbus]

JA said recruitment is not a problem. Concidering the current state of the airline combined with other airlines as mentioned he may be correct.

[electricdeathjet]

But there must be a limit to how many people we can take on before the training department is over loaded.....

[felixthecat]

When has anyone admitted that recruitment was a problem? Or 'Oh guys were are drastically short of pilots please stay....'

Its all smoke and mirrors.....believe the opposite of what you hear

[ExDubai]

JA said recruitment is not a problem...
Sure, as long as they are able to lower the requirements.

[Strapinfolks]

I have only one thing to say about this.
The jeopardy of going back to the RHS and then having to reapply for my command is, of course unacceptable.
It has been made perfectly clear that retention of those affected is at the bottom of the priority list.
Guys - there are plenty of jobs out there, not just Far East.
All I'm waiting for now is a contract then I'm off.
Can you imagine the CRM/Safety potential issues - two years down the line my Captain decides to do something questionable, with my career in his hands?
'I have control Captain' - no matter how hard you try to be a good soldier and bite your tongue your not going to let numpty spoil things are you?
For me, it's unthinkable to remain.

[White Knight]

I have only one thing to say about this.
The jeopardy of going back to the RHS and then having to reapply for my command is, of course unacceptable.
It has been made perfectly clear that retention of those affected is at the bottom of the priority list.
Guys - there are plenty of jobs out there, not just Far East.
All I'm waiting for now is a contract then I'm off.
Can you imagine the CRM/Safety potential issues - two years down the line my Captain decides to do something questionable, with my career in his hands?
'I have control Captain' - no matter how hard you try to be a good soldier and bite your tongue your not going to let numpty spoil things are you?
For me, it's unthinkable to remain.

Easy CRM. Me Captain.....

Aside from that I think the whole issue is unbelievebly p1ssp00r management. Or lack thereof!

Do other departments get warning letters?

[Mach_Krit]

on the note of warning letters...too bad the website of the illuminated has gone down. had a laugh reading those warning letters.

the treatment of staff and fellow colleagues on the other hand disgusts me. Never ever have I seen such a complete lack of respect for the work force.

Shocking what has come of the place.

[electricdeathjet]

Anyone going to the meeting tomorrow morning? Wonder if they have any new information to share with us.....
Not wearing a suit this time!

[bigdaviet]

I am genuinely starting to wonder if CM is an agent from Qatar...

[electricdeathjet]

What are their wide body DEC requirements?

[ExDubai]

What are their wide body DEC requirements?
Just make sure you are on the 24th./25th in town. I assume the. Are more then happ to answer those questions....

[Jack D]

Anyone going to the meeting tomorrow morning? Wonder if they have any new information to share with us.....
Not wearing a suite this time!

Would that be a 3 piece suite , with matching curtains ?

[electricdeathjet]

Haha touché

[CTWO]

Just make sure you are on the 24th./25th in town. I assume the. Are more then happ to answer those questions....

Would you care to elaborate...

[ExDubai]

Would you care to elaborate...
Sure.... http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/585323-qatar-airways-pilot-recruitment-road-show-dubai.html

[Life Vest]

Finally a clear and concise FCI effective immediately in the interests of safety outlining the Left to Right Policy.

The A380 Navigation Bag is to be relocated from the Left to the right side of the Flightdeck. :D

Just waiting for the Age Limit, Downgrade, and Hours Requirement Policy now. Not holding my breath. :ugh:

[Talparc]

Perhaps they mixed up the Pilots with Nav Bags!?
Very sad stuff going on.

[fatbus]

But the nav bag is under 35 .

[Talparc]

fatbus: under 35 kg? or the leather younger then 35years?

[CTWO]

..mostly to keep the thread alive and fighting the so much "wanted" oblivion..

this is the status quo:
- 2 meetings attended: no tangible results, only promises : "we are going to talk to GCAA,we will talk to HR"; nothing on writing except a dry power point presentation,promised to be distributed ..guess what? we haven't received that yet either...
- guys attending extra PPCs and Hsim to keep currency, as no training slots are available for each one of us:
- no visibility on the future ;
- upgrading 380 FO RRT just at LRC or a couple flight before because they are younger then 35yo;
- 3 380 capts ( why only this 3 has to be explained to me..)have been RRF and put on company DAYOFF because they have < 2000 hrs EK 330/340 PIC...

PPrune is filling with trolls, "astroturfing" emails and PMs are circulating, pretty HR recruitment ladies are filling linkedin post with invitations to join, Jennifer is smiling at us from Y class ( surely thinking how much she got for this new commercial)....

things are going in the direction they were meant to go....down the drain hole...hello tomorrow.

[SOPS]

Ok, I have to ask. What has the GCAA got to do with all of this? Is any of this a new GCAA requirement?

[fatbus]

Nothing to do with the GCAA.

[SOPS]

That's what I thought.mwas just wondering about the comment from my CTWO.... "We will talk to the GCAA'

[CTWO]

That's what I thought.mwas just wondering about the comment from my CTWO.... "We will talk to the GCAA'
I will elaborate:

great concerns has been expressed for being issued a A380 P2 license and logging P2; to avoid professional suicide we asked to log P1 with a RHS qualification on aP1 issued license, trying to obtain what the guys flying A319 have, or flying as cruise/relief/augmenting captain....
response was: WE Will talk to GCAA...

Hope now is more clear..

[SOPS]

Thanks...best of luck.

[notapilot15]

If they have any brains they should order brand new A330-300 Regional/B789s.

Why screw pilots and use A380s (or B77Ws or B779s) on less than 4 hour routes guaranteed to bleed money heavily.

Even QR/SV showing rational in deploying right size aircraft, what happened to special skills world class airline management supposed to have.

[fatbus]

Key point , not a GCAA requirement. Logging of flight time is totally different. Also "we will talk to the GCAA" = go away , I'm too busy.
All this is EK's own doing , not the first time. Similar to the 310, but most that are effected by this have no history of those events.

[CTWO]

Key point , not a GCAA requirement. Logging of flight time is totally different. Also "we will talk to the GCAA" = go away , I'm too busy.
All this is EK's own doing , not the first time. Similar to the 310, but most that are effected by this have no history of those events.
indulge me fatbus: what happened then to the 310 guys?

[Callone]

indulge me fatbus: what happened then to the 310 guys?
They offered rhs, answer was "we all resign", they offered lhs.
Other times, different pilots...

[electricdeathjet]

Hahaha really?

[CTWO]

They offered rhs, answer was "we all resign", they offered lhs.
Other times, different pilots...

Yep Callone, you are rigth...shame on us!!!
On something else you are rigth: other times.
In those "other times" these different pilots would never join a place like this, because they had a better job in a flag carrier in a first world country... too bad better pilots were here in the "Truman show "...
World economy shafted us... don't know you, but I fell like I have been shafted for the last 25 years.. must be my karma of a different kind of pilot.

[Talparc]

to avoid professional suicide

this is professional suicide, guys don't fall into their traps.
The only solution unfortunately seems to exit here asap.
And 18 months is a very long time considering the imagination of the costa muppets. More surprises can be expected during this time and I bet nothing good will come along.

[Dropp the Pilot]

25 years ago the company had 3 727s which were about to be mothballed. The 15 or so FO's on that type were given no information about when they might transfer to the A310. Seeing numerous new-hires going straight to the A310 they became sufficiently concerned about their fate that they went in to query the plan.

The 'managment' at that time stated there was no plan for these 727 FOs, they would all be let go as it was obvious to 'management' that someone accustomed to flying something as crude as a 727 could not possibly make the giant leap to something as sophisticated as the A310. Management stated this in terms which made it clear that they were surprised that these FOs had such little understanding of their own personal limitations.

[BigGeordie]

Different times, different pilots. Same management.

[bvcu]

But trained some 727 FE's as pilots for the A300/310.........

[777boyo]

Big Geordie -

"Different times, different pilots. Same management".

Have to correct you on that - any decisions relating to pilots in those days were made by the then Manager-Flight Ops, an Irish gentleman not known for his people skills, and an English chap whose name now escapes me. Both departed EK many years ago. When the A310 was introduced, about 8/10 ex-Wardair Training Captains from Canada were hired for their 310 experience, one of whom, most definitely not known for his people skills, became head of Training and remained in that position until about 2003 if I recall correctly. These two made all the decisions and policies relating to pilots when the A310 was introduced.

The Management team who were there at the time all reported directly to Sir Maurice. (I believe there were about 12 departmental heads in total, all of whom had mere "Manager" titles, none of this VP/EVP etc stuff then). With the exception of Sir Tim, who had zero input to decisions affecting pilots until many years after the A310 was brought in, and the head of Inflight Services, all of those Managers were gone by 1999.

So - same management? Style perhaps, but individuals, definitely not.

7B

[BigGeordie]

I meant same style of management. The people change but nothing else does. Except, as you pointed out, the inflated titles. Must be a Middle East thing.

[CTWO]

New 2 level pay scale on the career web site.... amusing...

[WB1900]

please waste 2 min on this post

first a little conclusion:

we downgrade expierenced 330/340 Comander to RHS
Ex 330/340 FO or short term CAPO are not good enough to be 380 capo

FO under the age of 34/35 not good enough to be comander

We hire

3000hr on 10T / 2000hr on 20T
DEC from 320/737 to B777

we pay a higher base salary to new joiners

Now please observe FCI Lifus

Updrager 10 Lifus flights
DEC 10 lifus flights

Fleet transfer 20 Lifus flights

so an EX easy/ryan/wizz or what so ever comander DEC needs less training than a EK 330/340 skipper and only the same like a upgrader.

please go now to the last page and read who is the originator:

yes you read right it is a DEC with just 3 or 3.5 years in EK (properly just 2000hr in EK) obviously having a steep career and now ????????

thanks for your time

[Miche767]

WB1900, the way I read the FCI, the 20 sectors is only for NaC combined with a fleet transfer. Captains transferring fleet as captains need only 10 sectors as usual.

[Callone]

I don t know what they are smoking up there but must be really good, so they did two meetings explaining that a new requirement of experience on type before operating as a captain has been introduced/implemented and a week later they release an FCI which states the LIFUS requirements for a fleet transfer with combined upgrade.

[Bus Driver Man]

we pay a higher base salary to new joiners

I didn't do the maths, but isn't the flight pay included in the salary on the career website? So it might look higher than what it is for current pilots.

[keepitrealok]

I did the maths and they are paying Level 2 joiners higher than current employees, who have the Level 2 requirements.

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[CTWO]

I did the maths and they are paying Level 2 joiners higher than current employees, who have the Level 2 requirements.

:ugh::ugh::ugh:
QUOTE"Originally Posted by north flyer

I was hired in June of 2008, I am in my 9th year.

I am an F/O by choice, my base pay is 30,405 AED and flight pay is 55 AED an hour, that equals 35,080 AED per month.

Emirates is willing to paying 9th year F/O salary for a level 2 F/O, not a bad deal, wish they had that when I joined, not sure about the year of captain pay, but I would guess it is about the same."

he is right:

we used to have 1 salary scale: you get hired you are on step 1, when you are upgraded you jump 10 steps (suppose after 4 yrs = you go step 14). DEC get hired step 13 to start with.. we used to have 22 step increment for captain (step 14 to 35) and 13 for FOs(FO cannot go higher then step 13)...this new "thing" change the prospective...wonder if a new hired FO is aware that if he does not upgrade in 4yrs (very unlikely) he will be shafted....hello tomorrow

[glofish]

Has happened before. Around 2003/4 they hired DECs on 4th year Capt scale (eq. 16th), if i remember correctly.

Whatever the situation dictates (lack of suitable applicants or pressure from insurance) they will simply adapt regardless of what the loyal staff have actually.

[donpizmeov]

CTWO the new hire on level 2 isn't shafted in four years if not upgraded. His earnings over that period are still greater than a level 1.

[CTWO]

CTWO the new hire on level 2 isn't shafted in four years if not upgraded. His earnings over that period are still greater than a level 1.

Fair enough....

[Praise Jebus]

Glowy you remember correctly, I was training a few of these guys and was pissed off they got paid more than me at the time....

[CTWO]

..and the november roster came out...and with a quick touch of magic wand ,here I am....FO again...what a rewarding satisfaction...:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[CTWO]

..BTW..still holding my breath,waiting for JA's guarantee letter...

[ekpilot]

P1 is still on your license. You should treat this as the end of your P1 contract and just find a new one. There are some good ones out there. NEVER go back P2. Guarantees don't exist in aviation. Good luck with your decision... it's a tough one, but so obvious to me...
Keep Discovering

[777boyindubai]

Please don't tell me that a "guarantee" from JA is worth the paper it's written on. Nothing written on EK paper is guaranteed. The only thing guaranteed is the fact that EK WILL get a lot worse.

[gardenshed]

Just wondering how the advert for DEC onto the B777 ties into the new requirement for internal upgrades ?
There seems to be no age requirements stated, only hours, and what about the requirement for current A330/340 Capts. to complete a certain number of PPC's and Manual Handling sessions before being deemed suitable for the "Review" for upgrade onto the A380.
Surely the newbies should also face the same, bearing in mind that the B777 flies into certain highly entertaining parts of the world now.
The general message appears to be that EK don't trust the pilots they have trained to do the job, but pilots trained elsewhere are ok.

[glofish]

The general message appears to be that EK don't trust the pilots they have trained to do the job, but pilots trained elsewhere are ok.

Makes sense though. The others have not been intimidated, threatened, brainwashed and worked to death into scared zombies.

You reap what you sow and EK almost has to import its edible food now, because the home grown stuff tastes badly ....

[CTWO]

Makes sense though. The others have not been intimidated, threatened, brainwashed and worked to death into scared zombies.

You reap what you sow and EK almost has to import its edible food now, because the home grown stuff tastes badly ....
The others have not been intimidated, threatened, brainwashed and worked to death into scared zombies

..scary and absolutely true...

[PPRuNeUser0215]

Fair enough....

Level 2 gets a higher salary which translates into:
- Higher EOSB or contribution to the provident ( times all these years )
- Higher sick pay
- Higher rate of holiday pay
- Higher loss of licence payment ( A level 1 pilot's health having served longer, is worth less because of his basic salary )
- Higher possibility of financing home purchase.

Basically the implications of the unfair system are extensive and should be at least considered by level 1 guys. Level 2 beware, level 3 could be on his way sooner than you think.

Multiply that by x number of years without any promotion of things were to turn sour, and that makes the true impact of such scale even more obvious.

.... now counting the days and happy in a way to see that my decision was right,

[CTWO]

My friend, I believe it has been stated before...the choice is to leave or accept that people with equal "experience " and less seniority get your salary if you are a fo. Different argument is the upgrade policy or the dec policy ... or the airbus transfer policy.. not fair ...but again.. no one cares..
..so take it or leave it... at your own convenience, if I may suggest...


Level 2 gets a higher salary which translates into:
- Higher EOSB or contribution to the provident ( times all these years )
- Higher sick pay
- Higher rate of holiday pay
- Higher loss of licence payment ( A level 1 pilot's health having served longer, is worth less because of his basic salary )
- Higher possibility of financing home purchase.

Basically the implications of the unfair system are extensive and should be at least considered by level 1 guys. Level 2 beware, level 3 could be on his way sooner than you think.

Multiply that by x number of years without any promotion of things were to turn sour, and that makes the true impact of such scale even more obvious.

.... now counting the days and happy in a way to see that my decision was right,

[PPRuNeUser0215]

Leaving it 😀😀😀🎉🎉🎉

[ekpilot]

In this case being P1 there is only one choice. Leave it! Life goes on. Never go back P2 in a contract work environment.

[CTWO]

In this case being P1 there is only one choice. Leave it! Life goes on. Never go back P2 in a contract work environment.
..work in progress..

[Talparc]

ekpilot is totally right, good luck guys!