The Battle of Britain

[Wander00]

Surely Beagle is not the only one of us to have noticed the date, and that today is Battle of Britain Day. Glass raised to the aircrew, and to those on the ground, including my Dad who was in London with the AFS. RiP the departed

[Chugalug2]

Well done Wander00, I was beginning to wonder. I'm afraid I had occasion to upbraid Beagle on another thread for playing the Section Officer Harvey card a day early, but would warmly welcome her appearance today!

Your tribute is indeed timely, for we all owe those who fought for us, both in the air and on the ground in that strategically vital conflict, our gratitude and our freedom. Enough of the chattering classes and their qualification of the greatest triumph of the Royal Air Force and of those who chose to come from many other nations to join in the struggle against tyranny.

In particular let us remember the AOC-in-C and his 11 Group AOC. Without their leadership we might never have triumphed. Under the leadership of those who plotted to oust them we most certainly wouldn't have! :=

[Top West 50]

I found it depressing that, on such a day, top of the bill was a discussion about a US rape case. Now we are back on track with this thread -

“Here dead lie we because we did not choose
To live and shame the land from which we sprung.
Life, to be sure, is nothing much to lose;
But young men think it is, and we were young.”

[Robert Cooper]

15 September 1940. Every fighter squadron was committed in battle, the RAF had no reserves.

Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few
Sir Winston Churchill

Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilization. Upon it depends our own British life, and the long continuity of our institutions and our Empire………..Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was their finest hour.”
Sir Winston Churchill

[polecat2]

BBC TV South today reported that the pupils at a school in Southampton felt that Flt Lt James Nicholson, Fighter Command's only VC, should have some sort of memorial in Southampton as he earned his VC in combat over the town. They organised for a plaque in his honour and today it was unveiled I think at the school.

Polecat

[Top West 50]

Nicolson I think?

[barnstormer1968]

There is an amusing thread over at ARRSE about the Battle of Britain.
It seems that not everyone thinks the 'few' won the battle!

[polecat2]

Nicolson I think?

Possibly, but you know who I mean.

Just checked. You're right. I stand corrected. Apologies to anyone I offended.

Polecat

[David Thompson]

Southampton plaque honours Battle of Britain hero - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hampshire-37367106)

[tartare]

Tried to find the film on iTunes to show the boy.
Seems to be available on DVD only.

[Coochycool]

Tartare

I watched it a few weeks ago on Youtube.

Unfortunately like many others, the film in it's entirety has been removed for licencing reasons.

However it can still be viewed if you don't mind watching it in chapters.

8 I seem to recall, but they run seemlessly into each other, so no great loss.

That also allows you to replay some of the funny bits, like the Poles.

"Repeat please!"

Absolutely haunting closing scene/soundtrack too. Lest we forget

[Hempy]

15 September 1940. Every fighter squadron was committed in battle, the RAF had no reserves.

Neatly dramatised by Churchill (and the movie), but when Park replied 'there a none' when asked what reserves he had, he was only speaking for 11 Group. Although the RAF were no doubt stretched between 13:45 and 15:45 there were squadrons in 10 and 12 Groups available to call on.

[sid-star]

Great shame that these historic events are not truly recognised. In today's society the news media have no interest in reporting such events.
In NZ there was no recognition of Keith Park's contribution.:=

[Big Pistons Forever]

I was my tremendously privileged to witness a great event last Saturday. The last Canadian Battle of Britain survivor was taken for a ride in a 3 ship formation of Harvards.

It was his 100 th Birthday and he was totally chuffed to get in the air again. He was physically pretty frail but otherwise in good health and a delight to talk to.

Sadly it will not be very long before they are all gone......

[onetrack]

I wonder how many millions of recent immigrants to Britain even care about BoB Day? :rolleyes:

Yet they flock to Britain because they see it as a bastion of personal freedom. I wonder what the BoB pilots would think today?

[Mogwi]

In 1970 I was on a det in Greece with No 72 (Messopotamia) Sqn, working with 4 Hueys of the German Air Force. On BoB day, we duly flour-bombed them from the Wessex and then took over the beer for a good thrash. After a while, I noticed an old WO pilot sitting quietly on his own and engaged him with my dubious German.

It transpired that he had been flying FW 190s from the Pas de Calais in September 1940 but couldn't remember a battle! A different aspect!

[Tankertrashnav]

I wonder how many millions of recent immigrants to Britain even care about BoB Day?


I'm guessing that maybe some of the estimated 830,000 Poles who now make up the largest immigrant population in the UK will remember, particularly those whose parents and grandparents came here to fight. Sad, then, that a Polish man was recently kicked to death by a group of louts in Harlow for the crime of speaking Polish in the street. I rather think it was they who had never heard of the Battle of Britain.

[ValMORNA]

Having watched a lot of the action from ground-level in the Sussex/Kent border area I well remember not only the one date but those preceding and following. It also happens to be my wife's birthday so I daren't forget such an auspicious occasion.

[barnstormer1968]

Well said TN.

As the Poles saw the results of German invasion and occupation first hand they have even more reasons to remember what their volunteers did in the BoB to defeat the axis forces.

It's always worth remembering that the average Brit living in Britain only got to see axis forces in the form of unarmed surrendered/captured POWs (or Luftwaffe crews after being shot down/crashing etc). There is a world of difference between the actions of the Italian POWs in a camp where I grew up and the actions of the SS ravaging Poland.

[airborne_artist]

Minor drift, but I was very taken with three memorials I stumbled across just back from the beach on the Dutch island of Walcheren. All honoured Marines from UK, Norway and the US who were involved in its liberation. The Dutch have long memories of the fight waged from the UK between 1939 and 1945, and of course many Bomber Command Aircrew were harboured or buried there. They don't forget.

[JOE-FBS]

Ref' that rather nice story from Southampton, a mate of mine who has lived near that school for many years tells me that there was an earlier memorial "erected where Nicolson landed, down near the docks. It was within the grounds of Mullards / Phillips' works, and apparently until the 1970's could be visited by request, but that whole area's been flattened and rebuilt at least once since then, and we've found no indication of what happened to the memorial; it seems likely to have been bulldozed along with the rest of the buildings."


Does anyone by any chance know whether he is correct ?

[Danny42C]

Top West 50 (#3), and Robert Cooper (#4),

Well quoted, Gentlemen !

Or, as Macaulay wrote a century ago:

"To every man upon this earth
Death cometh soon or late.
And how can man die better
Than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his fathers,
And the temples of his Gods."

And Robert Cooper quoted Churchill:

"This.... was their finest hour.”...

For many who took part in those days, it was true of their individual lives, too.

Cheers, both,

Danny42C.

[Herod]

Thanks for the Macaulay quote Danny. One of my favourites, and I think I'm guilty of quoting it far too often.

[Danny42C]

polecat2 (#5),
...BBC TV South today reported that the pupils at a school in Southampton felt that Flt Lt James Nicolson, Fighter Command's only VC, should have some sort of memorial in Southampton as he earned his VC in combat over the town...
Met him casually in the Calcutta "Grand" in 1944 after my 'prang'. Looked at my battered face, said sympathetically: "Reflector sight trouble ?" Had a long chat over our "John Collins", very nice chap, no "side" to the man at all.

Years ago I Posted the story of the day he earned his VC on "Pilot's Brevet" Thread, tried to find it to put it in as an excerpt here; "Search this Thread" (predictably) as much use as a sick headache; Google (which can usually find most things) no better. Maybe one of you can find it now.
...Nicolson was later promoted to Wing Commander. He died in May 1945 whilst an observer on an aircraft that crashed into the sea off Burma... [Wiki].
Only a few weeks before the end in August ! What a pity !

JOE-FBS (your #21),
...Ref' that rather nice story from Southampton, a mate of mine who has lived near that school for many years tells me that there was an earlier memorial "erected where Nicolson landed, down near the docks. It was within the grounds of Mullards / Phillips' works, and apparently until the 1970's could be visited by request, but that whole area's been flattened and rebuilt at least once since then, and we've found no indication of what happened to the memorial; it seems likely to have been bulldozed along with the rest of the buildings."...More than likely ! (sometimes I despair of this country).

Danny42C.

[Wensleydale]

...and, as always, no-one has mentioned the 790 aircrew of Bomber Command who died during the same period. While Fighter Command defended against the Luftwaffe during the day, the aircrew of Bomber Command went out at night to attack the German invasion barges in the cross channel ports...the Germans were forced to remove these from range before the official end of the BoB (don't believe the film). As Churchill said at the time...the fighter is our means of salvation, but the Bomber is our sole means of victory. Don't forget the "Battle of the Barges" either!

[stevef]

It transpired that he had been flying FW 190s from the Pas de Calais in September 1940 but couldn't remember a battle! A different aspect!

No wonder, Mogwi - the Fw190 wasn't operational until nearly a year later! More than likely he'd have been flying an Me109E.

[Expatrick]

Quote:
I wonder how many millions of recent immigrants to Britain even care about BoB Day?

I wonder how many native Brits actually care nowadays...

[yellowtriumph]

Ref' that rather nice story from Southampton, a mate of mine who has lived near that school for many years tells me that there was an earlier memorial "erected where Nicolson landed, down near the docks. It was within the grounds of Mullards / Phillips' works, and apparently until the 1970's could be visited by request, but that whole area's been flattened and rebuilt at least once since then, and we've found no indication of what happened to the memorial; it seems likely to have been bulldozed along with the rest of the buildings."


Does anyone by any chance know whether he is correct ?
Just a little something further to your post, here's a link to the original memorial from the local paper.

http://sotonopedia.wdfiles.com/local--files/page-browse%3Anicolson-james%3Amemorial/Bio%2BN%2B084%2BNicolson.pdf

I do not know the answer to your question though I'm afraid.

[langleybaston]

Most of us will not have heard of [or care about!] weather "singularities". These are sets of dates within which a weather pattern predominates.

One such is early to mid September, when anticyclones often hold sway. This is quite a reliable singularity unless I rely on it for holidays or exterior decorating.

It worked for the B o B, and my ex-RAF father [Barrage Balloon operator] always called this period "Battle of Britain weather".

We have had a spectacular example this year, such that I managed holiday and decorating.

Don't look for it next year though .....................

[salad-dodger]

Tried to find the film on iTunes to show the boy.
Seems to be available on DVD only.

It is on Netflix.

S-D

[BEagle]

I bought the BoB DVD....

....at Frankfurt airport :\

'Weather singularities'? Another weather-guesser's euphemism meaning "We don't really know, but you can probably expect rain", perchance?

We had a chap on one station who was 'involved' with rather a large person-formally-known-as-a-WRAF. He was also nicknamed 'Barrage Balloon Operator'....:eek:

[Haraka]

47 Years since we were at the premiere Beags..........

[Herod]

Crikey Haraka; you're right. I was with a party that went to the premiere in NI. All in uniform, with the ATC acting as ushers. That was before it all got nasty, of course. That suddenly makes me feel old.

[zetec2]

A day late posting but I signed on the dotted line at Halton 15 September 1958 @ 14.00 in the 2 Wing NAAFI (90th Entry) 59 years ago where has it all gone, well approx 25 serving HMQ.

[Wander00]

As a young fg off with a shiny budgie on my jacket turned up at Duxford when they were making the film. allowed to go anywhere, suit in anything, and living between Cambridge and Ely had a worms eye view of a lot of the flying. Magic.

[langleybaston]

QUOTE: 'Weather singularities'? Another weather-guesser's euphemism meaning "We don't really know, but you can probably expect rain", perchance?

BEAGS you know you like to be educated, even at this late stage.

Although I don't know why, forecasts have improved dramatically since I retired.

Answers on a postcard, please.

Terms and conditions apply.

[MAINJAFAD]

...and, as always, no-one has mentioned the 790 aircrew of Bomber Command who died during the same period. While Fighter Command defended against the Luftwaffe during the day, the aircrew of Bomber Command went out at night to attack the German invasion barges in the cross channel ports...the Germans were forced to remove these from range before the official end of the BoB (don't believe the film). As Churchill said at the time...the fighter is our means of salvation, but the Bomber is our sole means of victory. Don't forget the "Battle of the Barges" either! The bombers did play major part in the air war as well, as the 2 Group and Coastal Blenheim did do daylight attacks on airfields across the channel. Though they where soon ended after a couple of squadrons were wiped out, they forced the Germans for keep at least one fifth of their fighter force over France doing standing patrols during daylight hours throughout the whole battle.

[brokenlink]

At the Duxford show in May last year that had the Blenheim on show for the first time following its rebuild I was standing in front of said aeroplane when a chap comes up to me with an elderly lady in tow and asks whether she can have a look at the rear gunners position. Politely I explained that we were there to keep people from getting too close to the aircraft for their own safety at which point he explained that the lady's late husband had been an Air Gunner on Blenheims during the BoB. He had never talked much about his experiences nor had he claimed his medals( it also appears he went on to serve with the PFF) A claim had been made a few weeks prior and his widow had only just received them. PR were got involved with the upshot that the medals and a photo of her late husband were firmly strapped into the A/G's position whilst the a/c flew its display that day.

[ian16th]

More than likely ! (sometimes I despair of this country).

Danny42C. Danny
Isn't it true that the town of your current residence has only recently recognised its famous son, the only VC won on D-Day?

[Tankertrashnav]

I was interested in brokenlink's story about the Blenheim air gunner and his medals. Most people quite naturally associate the Battle of Britain with Spitfire and Hurricane pilots, but no less than nine (I believe) Blenheim squadrons took part, as well as Beaufighters, Defiants and sundry other types. All of their crews were entitled to the rare 'Battle of Britain' clasp.

The only Battle of Britain group of medals I ever owned were to a Sergeant Prosser, who was a Blenheim air gunner. His squadron had been transferred from Coastal to Fighter Command for the duration of the Battle, and thus his medals consisted of 1939-45 Star with 'Battle of Britain' clasp, Atlantic Star with 'Aircrew Europe' clasp and the 1939-45 War Medal, a very unusual combination. It would be interesting to know if the medals referred to in brokenlink's post were the same combination.

[Geezers of Nazareth]

Is there a BoB church service at St Clement Danes this weekend ... their web-site does not mention it. It usually ends with a flypast of some sort, and there doesn't seem to be a NOTAM for it.

[David Thompson]

Danny
Isn't it true that the town of your current residence has only recently recognised its famous son, the only VC won on D-Day?
Well nearly one year a go , to Stanley Hollis VC . A quite superb memorial it is too ;
Hundreds turn out as memorial to Middlesbrough VC war hero Stanley Hollis is unveiled - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/hundreds-turn-out-memorial-middlesbrough-10507873)

[Wander00]

Flypast - MOD (RAF) probably forgot

[Union Jack]

Most people quite naturally associate the Battle of Britain with Spitfire and Hurricane pilots, but no less than nine (I believe) Blenheim squadrons took part, as well as Beaufighters, Defiants and sundry other types. All of their crews were entitled to the rare 'Battle of Britain' clasp. - TTN

Lest we forget:

The Fleet Air Arm and the Battle of Britain - History Learning Site (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/world-war-two/famous-battles-of-world-war-two/battle-of-britain/the-fleet-air-arm-and-the-battle-of-britain/) :ok:

Jack

PS Congratulations, Grandpa!

[Danny42C]

David Thompson (#42),

Thanks for answering for me. I remember now, there was an article about it in the "Now and Then" at that time (we don't take the "Gazette")

Danny.

..................


There is quite a bit on this subject in my home "turf" of "Pilot's Brevet", starting p.465, last line of #9286 of 14th September.

[jolihokistix]

Geezers, 2 over the Abbey today.

[Wander00]

Blenheims in BoB mentioned during Blenheim display at Cranfield "air show" yesterday

[brokenlink]

TTN, think I have the e mail address of the chap accompanying the old lady. I'll drop him a line and ask.
Regds
BL

[Tankertrashnav]

Would be very interesting to find out, thanks. I don't have the medals any more but I still have some details on file, so it would be good to compare notes.

Thanks Jack :ok:

[roving]

As Friday is once again Battle of Britain Day, I hope it will not be considered hubris to share the reverse of a photo from my dad's easy war albums.

There were three groups of four MK IX Spitfires in the 208 Squadron flypast.

[seafury45]

A question if I may.

What contribution did the Civilian Repair Organisation (CRO) make to success in the BoB? I can find that it returned a staggering 79,000 aircraft to service during the whole war but cannot find any details relating only to the BoB.

[Chugalug2]

roving, by a strange co-incidence I am reading Flt Lt David Crook's account of 208's sister squadron, 209, and one of its pilots BoB. The devastating losses of Dunkirk and the start of the BoB (the Battle of Weymouth in particular) mercifully gave way to growing success as the simple truth that height was everything was qickly learned. This account was published shortly after the BoB, and Flt Lt Crook DFC died in 1944. The loss of friends and colleagues, even ex-school friends, on the squadron was keenly felt but the resilience of youth shines throughout. This book is currently available free as a Kindle download here:-

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spitfire-Pilot-Personal-Account-Britain-ebook/dp/B07535YGFP/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1505370620&sr=8-2&keywords=Spitfire+Pilot

[handsfree]

I've just finished reading that account by David Crook myself,
Chugalug. Makes for very interesting reading and much room
for thought.

[Crromwellman]

To former and serving RAF colleagues from an ex-soldier, I wish you all well for your day. The nation owes you and it should not forget it

[Danny42C]

There are many Posts from previous BoB days on Thread. As to the importance of the Battle, I once quoted Admiral Lord St. Vincent from two centuries ago:

"I do not say the French cannot come. I only say they cannot come by sea !"

To which the RAF had now added: "Or by air !"

The enemy may have changed - but the logic held good just the same.

I have never been able to understand why the US does not publicly celebrate June 4th as "Midway Day", for on that day in 1942, their Douglas Dauntless dive bombers destroyed three of four big Jap fleet carriers (they got the fourth later).

Revenge was sweet, for this had been the carrier group which had attacked Pearl Harbor six months earlier. It removed any threat of attack on the US mainland, and broke for good the back of Japanese naval air power in the Pacific. From then on they could only lose: it took the US three more years to get to Okinawa - then the Bomb ended the war. IMHO, it was of equal importance to them as the BoB to us, for it reversed the course of the war.

Danny.

[langleybaston]

Remembering ......... I was nearly five years old, my father was flying his barrage balloon "somewhere" [Coventry] and I stood in the garden in Sussex and marvelled.

I thank all of the aircrew, and all of the groundcrews and support staff, whose total commitment surely saved us.

RIP

[Onceapilot]

Worth watching the Battle of Britain film if you can. Not perfect but, probably captures something of the time.
Always sad for those who suffered. :sad:

OAP

[1.3VStall]

I'll be raising a glass (or two) tomorrow to the boys - and in particular to Geoffrey Wellum; I had the good fortune to meet him once. What a gentleman!

[insty66]

I've read quite a few books on the Battle over the years and recently stumbled across this quote by US General Henry “Hap” Arnold

“On the 8th of August 1940, the RAF Fighter Command took off to save everything, and between then and the end of September they saved it all”


I like it because it's an appreciation, from outside the RAF and UK, of not just the sacrifice but also the result of the sacrifice.

They really did save it all for Europe.

[India Four Two]

Some really great Spitfire and Hurricane pictures from a sunset flight in the Ottawa area:

At the Going Down of the sun > Vintage Wings of Canada (http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/598/At-the-Going-Down-of-the-sun.aspx)

[Treble one]

A poignant tale from me...


Prior to the formation of the (now ) BBMF, it was decided in the early 50's that some additional Spitfire pilots were needed for said BoB day flypasts. The wartime pilots were becoming a bit thin on the ground.


RAF Duxford was seen as a suitable base for said pilots, and so one pilot from each of the resident squadrons (64 and 65 sqdns) were chosen.


Our hero had always wanted to fly a Spitfire (I should think most of us do)....and so with much anticipation he grabbed his flying helmet and a copy of the relevant pilots notes, and excitedly waited his flight.


Very sadly the other pilot came in to land the Spitfire, and whilst landing, ground looped it, and 'broke' it. Our hero was most disappointed-he never got to fly a Spitfire.


He completed his tour on the Meteor NF, and was offered a permanent commission-however on the day of his interview Mr Duncan Sandys released his infamous White Paper-both he and the AOC spent the whole interview crying on each others shoulders. Flying a desk was not for him, so he left and joined BOAC-and ended up a 747 Captain at BA/Virgin.


Many years later our hero was very proud to attend his owns son's graduation from the Towers. Everything was going very smoothly until he discovered the identity of the reviewing officer...it was none other than the chap who had 'broke' that Spitfire upon landing....he was now a 1*....


Our hero's son pleaded with his dad not to say anything, as he didn't want his fledgling RAF career to be over before it had begun. Our hero being the gentleman he was, didn't pop over and say hello.....


A funny tale, but very poignant, as our hero, Les Millgate, a very good friend and mentor of myself, sadly took off for his last flight last week. A real gentleman, and more importantly, a really lovely bloke. I met Les as we were both in the same volunteer group at .....IWM Duxford.


I'm raising a glass for you Les, and I hope wherever you are, you get that flight in a Spitfire you truly deserve.

[DC10RealMan]

Tomorrow evening our local Air Training Corps Squadron will be having their annual Battle of Britain Dinner which is a formal black tie dinner and the highlight of the Squadrons social calendar.
The vast majority of attendees will be young people who were not even born in the 20th Century and yet will honour those events with due solemnity and dignity.
Dont believe everything that the Press tell you about the youth of today.

[Treble one]

IWM Duxford hosted a party from RAF Henlow today-they made some excellent presentations on some of the tactics used in, and other aspects of the Battle of Britain.


I believe it was their commemorative BoB dinner tonight-wishing them a very pleasant evening.

[POBJOY]

Just a reminder that Kenley (most complete 11 group airfield in its wartime state) is still with us and under MOD control, and when the ATC top brass get their act together will hopefully continue as a base for ATC Gliding again. Amazingly the Aug 18th raid left most of the camp area intact despite the loss of all but one of the WW1 Belfasts. The science museum Hurricane (615 County of Surrey) is a survivor from that raid having been in action on that day. The 11 group fields really did get a hammering, but were never non operational despite the shambles, and the GPO (as was) managed to keep the phone lines open that kept the system operational.

[Blacksheep]

Today is the Day. 15th September.

"Never in the field of human conflict have so many owed so much to so few."

Not many of you left now, chaps, but we still remember you all...

3031

Probably copyrighted somewhere, but I don't think they'll mind it being here.

[aw ditor]

Pobjoy.

I expect you know about the "Kenley Revival " team and their Website but, just in case ........................... .
A.D.

[Danny42C]

insty66 (#60),

I owe General Arnold a lot. As the Commanding General of the US South East Air Training Air Centre, he was the instigator of the 1941 "Arnold Scheme", under which some 7,000 plus RAF LAC u/t pilots were given training in his own military schools (I was one). The RAF got 4,000 plus pilots back (I was one - luckily, as the other 3,000 odd were "washed out[40% wastage] for reasons which are argued about to this day). 500 plus were "creamed off" as QFIs, and kept back in the States to instruct on the six British Flying Training Schools which the US set up for us in the southern States concurrently with the "Arnold" ones. For the first six months of their existence, both Schools were in flagrant breach of America's "neutrality" policy - but Hitler could do little about it, as he had his hands full with Russia at the time.

I did not know about "Hap's" generous "obiter dicta" you quote; there was another after he saw Cologne just after VE Day: "It was horrible - there was nothing, absolutely nothing, left" (as I tentatively recall the wording). I still treasure my USAAC wings to this day. (The whole Arnold story is on Wikipedia, well worth a read).

''''''''''''''''''

Treble one (#62),

Bit puzzled about this:

..."Prior to the formation of the (now ) BBMF, it was decided in the early 50's that some additional Spitfire pilots were needed for said BoB day flypasts. The wartime pilots were becoming a bit thin on the ground"...

Not as thin as all that: in Sept '51, 20 Sqn disbanded (were we the last Sqn to operate the Spit ?), putting on the market a whole squadron of experienced wartime spitfire pilots with 2-300 more hours postwar on the XVIs (inc little me). I was ground-toured as Adj of an Aux Fighter Control Unit. Nobody asked me if I wanted to take part in any BoB flypast, don't remember anything in A.M.O.s then or later. In late '54 the CMB permanently grounded me, anyway - was the hue 'n cry for Spit drivers after that ?

I can only affirm that, neither on my (1942) OTU at Hawarden, nor anywhere else did I ever see (or hear of) a Spitfire ground-looping. At OTU, seeing its little splayed-out wheels, and having come off AT6As or its alter ego the Harvard (which would ground-loop at the drop of a hat), we feared the worst. But it didn't happen. Perhaps the "splay" had something to do with it. All I can say is the 1* must've been ham-footted to a degree to provoke it to do something so far out of character.

Which was the stuff of dreams ! There can't be anything nicer to fly than a Spit. If there are aircraft in Heaven, they will be Spits. Les, I raise my "Complan" to you in salute - will be seeing you there before all that long, anyway - (always supposing both of us con our way past St. Peter).

Predictably, the Meeja have forgotten all about what happened here 77 years ago. I remember writing in a Post, way back: "We [the RAF] saved Britain from its greatest peril in a thousand years". I hasten to add that I took no part in it myself, (did not get to a Spit cockpit until two years later). I believe some 3,000 pilots took part (ie were on the fighter strengths of 11 or 12 Groups during the battle). Of these, 600 odd were killed in the battle: of the remaining 2,400 a further 800 odd were killed later in the war, making a total of 1,400, or 47% - much the same as the Bomber Command fatality rates later.

BBC in a froth of hysteria about the "bomb" (glorified firework) at Parson's Green tube station which created such mayhem there this morning. Very sorry for those wounded, of course, but sorry, friends, take it from me, if a "bomb" "explodes", you know. They've been on about it for five hours solid so far. Not a cheep about the BoB anniversary (or anything else for that matter). Did any other Channel remember - or the papers ?

"The Nation that forgets its history is condemned to repeat it".

Danny.

[Treble one]

Danny sir


Thanks for the update-maybe I got the story wrong, or misunderstood what Les told me.


The bit about the bent Spitfire and the subsequent Cranwell 'reunion' are very definitely true :-)


I've never seen a Spitfire ground looped-in fact the only warbird I've seen doing that was a Hellcat would you believe? I will bow to your far superior knowledge and experience on such matters!


I can only dream about flying a Spitfire like many of us. However I remain grateful like unlike yourself, that if I ever did get the thrill, at least no one would be trying to kill me at the same time.


Thanks for taking the time to reply.


TO (Chris)

[DODGYOLDFART]

I say this not to detract or to take anything away from the pilots and other aircrew who fort in the B of B but please also remember the poor bloody ground crews who kept the aircraft flying. Quite a lot gave their lives or were badly wounded at Kenley, Biggin Hill, Croydon, Rochester and all the other airfields involved in the battle. Many of these chaps slept under hedges and hardly knew what a hot meal was from the middle of August through to late September but were always there day and night keeping the aircraft fit for battle.

Without the dedication of these chaps the battle could not have been fort. It is also perhaps worth remembering that they too were a scarce resource with engine fitters and riggers taking almost twice as long to train as pilots.

[Tankertrashnav]

Quite so. Your phrase "and other aircrew" is well chosen, as a considerable number of Blenheim squadrons took part in the Battle, each aircraft with an observer and air gunner. There were other two seat types as well, so although the image is understandably of a single seat fighter pilot, this is not the whole story.

[Prangster]

In replying to Robert Cooper, may I point out it was only 11Group who were fully engaged. 10 and 12 Group were both able to hold units in reserve.

[unclenelli]

Tomorrow evening our local Air Training Corps Squadron will be having their annual Battle of Britain Dinner which is a formal black tie dinner and the highlight of the Squadrons social calendar.
The vast majority of attendees will be young people who were not even born in the 20th Century and yet will honour those events with due solemnity and dignity.
Dont believe everything that the Press tell you about the youth of today.

DC10
Glad to see that you are actively promoting the anniversary amongst the ATC, future Aviators/Flt Support members of the RAF.

Yob: "What did you get up to this weekend....?"
Cdt: "I had a 4-course dinner with the Mayor, the local Cdt Commandant, Station Commander of RAF wherever, Chief Constable of wherever.........., What did you do?"
Yob: "I graffiti'd a train tunnel and got caught - 20hrs community service!! - You SPAZ!!!"







Best Bib & Tuckers All Round?, Staff in No1s/No5s, CWO in No4s?, Any local RAF Support Staff in No1s/No4s/No5s?

[Cazalet33]

Yob: "What did you get up to this weekend....?"

Cdt: We 'ad bangers an mash for tea. The hossifers had double portions.
Then we went on parade.

https://s26.postimg.org/wn6ms6e6x/RAFVRT.jpg

[Warmtoast]

Wow! Is he pregnant? Transgender and all that.

[BEagle]

Cazalet33 , notwithstanding that chap's rather inelegant appearance, he is at least helping to maintain the airmindedness of today's yoof.

Sneering at the way he looks is extremely distasteful - the poor chap is probably only doing his best. Which is a darn sight more than can be said for others....

[megan]

the other 3,000 odd were "washed out[40% wastage] for reasons which are argued about to this dayCare to expand on the reasons and the argument Danny.

[Barksdale Boy]

Good shine on his toecaps.

[At ease]

Originally Posted by Robert Cooper

15 September 1940. Every fighter squadron was committed in battle, the RAF had no reserves.Neatly dramatised by Churchill (and the movie), but when Park replied 'there a none' when asked what reserves he had, he was only speaking for 11 Group. Although the RAF were no doubt stretched between 13:45 and 15:45 there were squadrons in 10 and 12 Groups available to call on.

Anyone who has a good understanding of the Battle will understand what "Robert Cooper" was suggesting in his post re; reserves made by AVM Park.

Hough and Richards take up the story @ pp 250/251 of the below source:

The Battle of Britain

By Richard Hough, Denis Richards


By 6 September every Hurricane or Spitfire squadron that could reasonably be used in 11 Group or the two 'hot' adjoining sectors (Duxford in 12{Bader Wing}, Middle Wallop in 10) was either serving there, or had been serving there in the previous month. There were no further fresh squadrons fit to take the place of the battered ones. As Dowding later wrote: 'By the beginning of September the incidence of casualties became so serious that a fresh squadron would become depleted and exhausted before any resting or reformed squadron was ready to take it's place'(9)https://books.google.com.au/books?id=57PgAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA251&lpg=PA251&dq=dowding+stabilisation&source=bl&ots=g4iSQ8VchI&sig=gIkeAHguOnhDk2S_n3_rIkqgnwQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjWjcyR96jWAhXBabwKHVPMAfsQ6AEILDAC#v=onepage&q=dowding%20stabilisation&f=false

Following on from the above is Dowding himself:

[the source I link to below enables me to cut & past the text directly, rather than me having to type it myself as I needed to above, so I will use a larger portion of it]

Battle of Britain in the Words of Air Chief Marshal Hugh Dowding

(from page one of eight)

The Shortage of Pilots

[.....]

By the beginning of September the incidence of casualties became so serious that a fresh squadron would become depleted and exhausted before any of the resting and reforming squadrons was ready to take its place. Fighter pilots were no longer being produced in numbers sufficient to fill the gaps in the fighting ranks. Transfers were made from the Fleet Air Arm and from the Bomber and Coastal Commands, but these pilots naturally required a short flying course on Hurricanes or Spitfires and some instruction in formation flying, fighter tactics and interception procedure.
I considered, but discarded, the advisability of combining pairs of weak units into single squadrons at full strength, for several reasons, one of which was the difficulty of recovery when a lull should come. Another was that ground personnel would be wasted, and a third was that the rate at which the strength of the Command was decreasing would be obvious.
I decided to form 3 Categories of Squadrons:


(a) The units of 11 Group and on its immediate flanks(including Duxford and Middle Wallop - At Ease italics), which were bearing the brunt of the fighting.
(b) A few outside units to be maintained at operational strength and to be available as unit reliefs in cases where this was unavoidable.
(c) The remaining squadrons of the Command, which would be stripped of their operational pilots, for; the benefit of the A squadrons, down to a level of 5 or 6. These C squadrons could devote their main energies to the training of new pilots, and, although they would not be fit to meet German Fighters, they would be quite capable of defending their Sectors against unescorted Bombers, which would be all that they would be likely to encounter.

The necessity for resorting to such measures as this indicates the strain which had been put on the Fighter Command and the pilot training organisations by the casualties which the Command had suffered in this decisive Battle.
[.....]
http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/battle-of-britain-in-the-words-of-air-chief-marshal-hugh-dowding.html/7?replytocom=1501

It is therefore to be understood that Park was referring to the 100 % commitment of all fully fit squadrons(except for the few (b) squadrons which were in any event a further distance from 11 group airfields and would arrive if called on even later than the Duxford Wing).

The remainder were not fully operational or indeed were reduced to the status of training squadrons.

The a,b,c, categorisation of squadrons implemented by Dowding as outlined above is otherwise known as the "Stabilisation Scheme", references to which are to be found on the 'net with very little effort involved.

[Chugalug2]

Thank you for that succinct and informative post, At ease. Others will no doubt cavil at the detail, but if this long running thread has any purpose it is surely to inform and to learn about this pivotal battle. You have done the former and I, for one, the latter.

Incidentally, the explanation of Dowding's Stabilisation Scheme illustrates quite clearly what a great leader he was. We were very lucky to have the right man, in the right job, and at the right time.

[At ease]

Thank you for that succinct and informative post, At ease. Others will no doubt cavil at the detail, but if this long running thread has any purpose it is surely to inform and to learn about this pivotal battle. You have done the former and I, for one, the latter.

Incidentally, the explanation of Dowding's Stabilisation Scheme illustrates quite clearly what a great leader he was. We were very lucky to have the right man, in the right job, and at the right time.

Thank you for the kind words.

Indeed, he was a great leader.

From pp84/85 of:

War: A Matter of Principles

By Air Marshal David Evans

Although he suffered resentment and ingratitude at the time, and was retired immediately the battle was won, Churchill, much later, was big enough to pay tribute to Dowding's perceptiveness and generalship when writing his account of World War II:

The foresight of Air Marshal Dowding in his direction of fighter command deserves high praise, but even more remarkable has been the restraint and the exact measurement of formidable stresses which had reserved a fighter force in the north during all these long weeks of mortal combat in the south. We must regard the generalship here shown as an example of genius in the art of war. https://books.google.com.au/books?id=UjC_DAAAQBAJ&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=hugh+dowding+generalship&source=bl&ots=oVy2XzbT4Z&sig=RdNwscbc9xUz64watBEUI7MZtn8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjfyIC5sanWAhVBVLwKHSxtAQkQ6AEIUTAG#v=onepage&q=hugh%20dowding%20generalship&f=false

[Danny42C]

Treble one (#68),

I have always made clear that I'm not to be regarded as any form of authority. Let's throw it open - has anyone seen or heard of a Spitfire ground - looping ? They were awkward to taxi any distance without the coolant "coming to the boil", until you learned the special technique *, and then you could "go for miles". Generally speaking, and IMHO, all taildraggers will ground-loop if they get half a chance.

Note *: details in "Pilot's Brevet" Thread, Page 123, #2452.

''''''''''''''
DODGYOLDFART (#69),

Snippet of info: I believe that the labourers building the airfields were paid more than the junior pilots fighting the battle - and certainly more than the lasses and lads who worked tirelessly in all weathers to keep the aircraft servicable.

''''''''''''''
megan (#75),

Can of worms (or Hornet's Nest) here, and no mistake ! I have squeezed the pips of this a few years back - go to "Pilot's Brevet" Thread, read Page 312, #6238 and Page 369, #7329, and you'll know as much as is humanly possible. It is all LONG AGO, and nobody is bothered about it now.

Cheers all, Danny.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Danny (and megan)
"go to "Pilot's Brevet" Thread, read Page 312, #6238 and Page 369, #7329,"

The page 369 post is in fact no. 7379.

(Easy enough to misread a 2 for a 7).

'Best
Ian BB

[Nugget90]

Until my late father was posted overseas to India, he wrote often to his parents and - thankfully - my grandmother kept many of these letters, the contents of which provide a fascinating commentary on life as an RAF pilot in the first half of WWII.

One of these letters, written in 1940 (at the height of the BoB) reads as follows:

"Hullavington
Sunday. 15/9

Dear Mother & Dad,

I nearly got a Junkers 88 long range bomber yesterday!!!! We have a Hurricane we keep ready for Station defence and 3 of us are allowed to fly it. Very occasionally as we waste petrol!! Any way the Junkers came over the camp at about 5000' and as I was doing nothing at the time I grabbed my bike and pedalled off to the Hurricane with my brolly over my shoulder. Leaped in and started up and off. I chased away the way he had gone with my electric sights on and my guns ready. Of course I didn't catch him. He had had too good a start. I flew around at 12000 for a bit in case there was another and then saw another Hurricane going fast towards Swindon. I followed him in case he knew of something but there wasn't anything there. So I came back. Maybe I get one some day.

The Hurricane is grand. Cruising at 200 and climbing at 160. I dived, quite gently, and got 360. No effort at all."

My father had joined the RAF some three years before the war started and was posted to Egypt to learn to become a fighter pilot with No 64 Squadron flying Demons, which is why he became one of only a handful of pilots at RAF Hullavington, No 9 Service Flying Training School, where he was an instructor, to be allowed to fly Hurricanes kept for defending the Station. Research in the National Archives has taught me that Hullavington got regular pastings throughout 1940, but mostly at night. The official history of the BoB records two Junkers 88 flights entered British airspace on the day my father describes, either of which might have been the one that he followed as both headed well inland: both were seen to depart unscathed.

The flight described above by my father (in a 'Boys Own' style of dash and courage, I rather think) lasted 30 minutes and was only the second time he had flown the Hurricane, the previous flight three days beforehand made similarly for Station defence also lasted 30 minutes.

Although I can always say that my father flew fighters on authorised missions in the BoB, like some 14 or so other pilots based at various other stations in Britain, I acknowledge that he (and they) were not amongst 'The Few'. This accolade is reserved for those who flew specific types between the 10th of July and the 31st of October 1940 under the control of Fighter Command. My father also flew Defiants within this period, but only for 'air tests' or training air gunners, and none of these sorties are listed as 'operational' in his pilots flying log book (although the Hurricane sortie described above was confirmed to have been 'operational' by his Flight Commander).

As tomorrow, Sunday, is BoB Sunday I shall once again be in Westminster Abbey for the Memorial Service. In preparation for this I have been polishing his medals - that include four 'Stars' with more besides - that I shall wear with pride on my right lapel.

'Lest we forget', as my Australian colleagues (from an RAF/RAAF exchange tour I enjoyed in the mid 1960s) would say.

[Danny42C]

Ian B-B (#82),

Oops ! - thanks, Ian. As you say, an easy mistake to make (particulaly by an old duffer half-blind anyway !)

Danny.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Danny - you say

"by an old duffer half-blind anyway !)"

No way to describe yerself, a veteran of 95 summers at all at all!

I will, if I'm spared, 'till thursday, make the big 70, and I already have bifocals (even for my sunglasses) and a special pair of specs for spending too much time looking at this addictive computer thingie.

A couple of quotes are running in the back of my mind at this time;

"And at my back I always hear, time's winged chariot hurrying near"

"The days of our years are threescore and ten"

Kind of worrying for me - but it's great to see someone like you beating the odds.
Continue to do so Danny!

Ian BB

[jolihokistix]

The weather should be good for the Abbey, and for whatever flies over afterwards.

[Danny42C]

Ian BB,

Roaming about enjoyably n the "Pilot's Brevet" Posts of those days (2014 and 2015) when the question of the Arnold Washouts was being kicked-about ad nauseam, I now realise the value of your sage contributions to the mix (and Chugalug's and many other's).

Several other "Why"s will never get an answer now: e.g. Why did the USAAC not notice that their Pilot Training syllabus (of 200 hours in three phases) was half as long (and therfore expensive) again as ours (on which, I believe, the BFTS was modelled ?) notwithstanding that our OTUs could see no innate superiority in the finished (Arnold) product?

The USAAC specified that 10% of the BFTS intake should be US Cadets. Clearly that was to evaluate the British system. What was learned from that ?

Why did they think it necessary to introduce an intermediate type (in my case the Vultee BT-13, of unhappy memory), between "Primary" (our EFTS) and "Advanced" (SFTS), when we could demonstrate that the average pupil could make the leap beteen a TM or Stearman and the Harvard without undue difficulty ?

Now we'll never know. Perhaps there was an element of "Not Invented Here".

Danny .

Edit: Doesn't the Good Book add: "Or Four Score by Reason of Strength" ? I may "do the ton" - but I wouldn't put money on it !
D.

[DODGYOLDFART]

Danny your snippet of info regarding pay was bang on. The civilian labourers filling in bomb holes etc. at Kenley were reputed to be being paid £1 per day. This was more than double the usual rate due to the dangers of UXB and other nasty things. Whilst an LAC flight rigger or engine mechanic was being paid 5 shillings per day and a Sergeant pilot was on 12 shillings and 6 pence per day. Certainly makes you wonder does it not.

On another tack. The numbers of ground crew/support staff killed on the BB airfields during the battle has never been accurately established as no specific account was kept of them. It could be as many as 300 but this may also include those that died of more natural causes. Counting graves in cemeteries close to the airfields can give some indication but is certainly not an accurate one.

Just like the chaps fighting in the sky they too gave their lives for the cause but are sadly rarely remembered.

[Ormeside28]

I was on 18 and 19 Courses at 1 BFTS at Terrell, Texas in 1943/44. Put back a course due to mumps!! We had 20 per cent American Cadets. Virtually the same percentage British/American cadets were eliminated. Several American cadets with whom I corresponded after returning to U.K. Went to their Ferry Command. We were appalled at their tales of Pre Flight hazing etc. There is a Museum of 1 BFTS at Terrell which is very active. I have just met the Directors of the Museum who were on holiday in U.K. They keep the Museum very active and for those interested, worth contacting. Lots seem to be happening and they are very keen after all these years.

[ARRAKIS]

It transpired that he had been flying FW 190s from the Pas de Calais in September 1940 but couldn't remember a battle! A different aspect!

The manufacturing of the Fw-190 A-0 pre-production series started later than that, near the end of 1940. Possible reason of his memory problems?

Arrakis

[cvg2iln]

notwithstanding that chap's rather inelegant appearance, he is at least helping to maintain the airmindedness of today's yoof.

One can only hope that today's airminded yoof has sufficient acumen to steer clear of this sort of nonsense. Cult of Churchill. BoB myth.

[roving]

Mutatis mutandis!

cvg2iln, incredible how you managed to turn a positive news thread about a US carrier into a petty rant about a completely unrelated topic while managing to add nothing in that post to the discussion. Chip on one shoulder or both?

Some may consider that anything which inspires national pride at this very difficult time, is to be applauded..

[roving]

Paul Farnes, Tom Neill and Geoffrey Wellum are still alive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Farnes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Neil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Wellum

[Tankertrashnav]

Cult of Churchill. BoB myth.

So Operation Sealion wasn't cancelled and Britain was invaded and occupied? We are still part of the Third Reich. When do we wake up from the dream?

[roving]

The late Mark & Ray Hanna flew the Spitfires in the 1988 TV Mini Series "Piece of Cake".

Ray and Mark Hanna : The Old Flying Machine Company (http://www.old-flying-machine-company.co.uk/ray-and-mark-hanna/)

This is the episode focussing on the Battle in August & September 1940.

https://archive.org/details/PieceOfCake_201704

[Danny42C]

Ormeside28 (# 89),
..."I was on 18 and 19 Courses at 1 BFTS at Terrell, Texas in 1943/44. Put back a course due to mumps!! We had 20 per cent American Cadets. Virtually the same percentage British/American cadets were eliminated. Several American cadets with whom I corresponded after returning to U.K. Went to their Ferry Command. We were appalled at their tales of Pre Flight hazing etc"...The Thread Opener of the "Pilot's Brevet" Thread (Clifford Leach [RIP], aka "cliffnemo", was at Darr Field BFTS (Miami or Ponca City [?] both ALA). He had an American buddy "Hank Olbers" (?). So it was 20%, not 10% (my mistake). Hank went on to ferry B-17s all over the world.

I've written about "hazing", but of course it could take place only on Class42A, when they followed the last Class of US "Kay-Dets" through the Arnold system. There was no particular animus against us: they would have treated their own chaps just the same. The legend was that at Carlstrom Field (FLA), our 42A rebelled in a body, fell upon their tormentors in unarmed combat, prevailed and threw them and all their kit into the Camp swimming pool.

They could hardly send them all back to Canada (it would provoke a Diplomatic Incident), so hazing was quietly abandoned on the spot. When 42A became "top dogs" in their turn, they were followed by a RAF 42B, and hazing became a distant memory.

Curiously, I have never been able to find any evidence to back this up. Any hope now ?

Danny.

[Dr Jekyll]

Shortage of pilots

Naïve question from a civilian here. When volunteers were being sought from FAA, coastal command etc, was any consideration given to using ATA pilots?

[Danny42C]

roving (#95),

The late Ray Hanna parked a Spitfire at Leeming one day in midsummer of the late-sixties in readiness for a display at Teesside that afternoon. Seeing me gazing on it from afar in unconcealed, hopeless envy, he guessed I had flown them before (I had, 20 Sqn, Valley, 1950-51) having trained on them in '42.

He invited me to sit in the cockpit again (all the AFS studes had been warned, on pain of death, to look but not to touch the thing). I gladly accepted: it was just like old times, it even smelt the same. After a few minutes of glorious nostalgia, I climbed out and gratefully thanked a real gentleman.

I was the ATC Watch boss that afternoon, and was able to reciprocate. We kept our direct line to Teesside ATC open after he took off, and gave him radar surveillance (he was not all that familiar with the geography of N. Yorkshire). In that way we were able to time his run-in to the display to the split second. Thanking us, he went on his way.

Of course, all this was after he'd left the Service, in which he'd been one of the better known leaders of the Red Arrows.

Danny.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Danny yr no.96

I agree with Ormeside28 - approx 20% U.S. content was the norm at my father's Alma Mater (No. 5 B.F.T.S. Clewiston).
His course (12) was the first of the "blended" courses with 17 U.S. and 83 U.K. cadets.
Same figures for courses 14, 15, and 16. Course 13 had 17 U.S. but only 70 U.K. cadets.
Courses 17 and 18 (the final of the 7 completed "blended courses) had 20 U.S. and 90 U.K
participants.
All of the U.S. graduates served in Air Transport Command. My post no. 5554 Page 278 (Pilot's Brevet Thread) refers.

Ian BB

[Danny42C]

Dr Jekyll (#97),

Don't think so: From Wiki:

..."The ATA recruited pilots who were considered to be unsuitable for either the Royal Air Force or the Fleet Air Arm by reason of age, fitness or gender. A unique feature of the ATA was that physical handicaps were ignored if the pilot could do the job"...

In the flower of my youth (aged 20), and after 200 hours of military flying training to "wings" standard, I had to do another 100 hours and four month's RAF training to be acceptable as a fighter squadron new boy (in 1942, I should add). The Battle only lasted three months in 1940.

Both sides were brought to their knees by attrition of pilots. Aircraft production kept pace on either side (with production lines set up, you can produce Spitfires or Messerscmitds like family cars) But nobody then or since can take a lad off the street and turn him into a military pilot in less than 12 months. In the words of the Iron Duke at Waterloo: "Hard pounding, Gentlemen - we shall see who can pound the longest". In 1940 it was us !

The "or gender" is a hot potato now - but not then. As Kipling said: "The Female of the Species is More Deadly Than the Male" (the poem is worth a read). The women were 14% of the ATA, they did sterling work (and lost their lives) in ferrying repairs and replacements back to the fighting squadrons (who would otherwise have to divert their own pilots for the job).

All honour to the ATA !

Danny.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

"All honour to the ATA!

I had the (unexpected) honour of being checked out (wasn't told by whom) on the mighty PA-28 Cherokee by one of those great ATA ladies at Wycombe Air Park - (17.1.74 G-AZWE). I was inside doing my checks when I became aware of a little old lady boarding, carrying a cushion for her seat so that she could see over the panel! This was Joan Hughes ex-ATA. She watched me do 4 landings and signed me off. I wish I had had the time to talk with her - but that's how it was.
Ian BB

[Danny42C]

Ian B-B (#99),

Yes, we're agreed: 20% it was. The $64 question still hangs in the air (what did the USAAC learn from the comparison ?) Could the fact be that all their output was considered fit only for Air Transport Command, where they would "learn on the job" as second dickies before moving over to the LH seat - and doing the job that ATA did for us ?

Whereas the output from the USAAC (200-hr) Course would produce the "real" combat pilots they needed ?

But we could see no difference at all between our "Arnold" or BFTS trained boys at OTU stage ???

"Curiouser and Curiouser", said Alice.

Danny.

[roving]

Danny

From the same TV series, Ray Hanna flies a Spitfire under a low bridge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf3UtmHLKUU

[Danny42C]

roving (#103),

Thanks for the link ! Internet Explorer wouldn't play, but got it on Google Chrome. Didn't find Ray Hanna flying under any bridges, but in lieu an interesting snippet on the earlier Spitfires cutting out under negative "G". Followed by a full hour about the girls of the ATA.

Never saw this footage before, although the BBC did do: "The Spitfire Girls" on TV years and years ago. Anyone who hasn't clicked onto your link already must do so - if only to see what your mothers (and grandmothers !) were capable of 77 years ago ! (I take my hat off to them).

As to Bridges, the two over the Menai Strait (Telford's lovely old suspension road bridge) and the old box railway bridge (burned out after my time) absolutely begged to be flown under with our Spits and Vampires. But the certainty of detection (and subsequent sacking) kept our youthful ardour in check.

I think the Meteors were restricted to 15 seconds inverted, weren't they ? As I recall, the practice was to count One, two, three, four, fifteen - and roll out ! (a double flame-out low down was no fun). Not that I know much about them with only a few hours (Vampire was much nicer - the "Jet Spitfire" IMHO).

Happy Days ! Danny.

[Danny42C]

I see at least Charles and Camilla got to the Abbey yesterday. Did the BBC TV notice ? ITV ? Anyone ? Not relevant to the Modern Age, I suppose.

Danny.

[jolihokistix]

Yes they were there, as was the PM, who was sitting next to her opposite number, JC.

[Tankertrashnav]

They were both there when I attended the service some years ago - it may be a regular date for them. Also there escorting the Book of Remembrance was one of the last survivors, Sqn Ldr Geoffrey Wellum , DFC, (see roving's post above) who I have had the pleasure of meeting on a number of occcasions. Geoffrey said he was talking to Camilla after the service, and she was obviously moved by it. I know it's common to mock both her and Prince Charles, but by all accounts those who have actually met her think she is a very genuine lady. (photo and report in today's Times).

Also noted in today's paper, the obituary of another of the few, Sqn Ldr Nigel Rose, who died on 10th September.

RIP

[Wander00]

back in the late 80s I twice had the privilege of being an usher at the BoB Service. will never forget.


On the second occasion I had the Air Force Board pews. Along came Sir Arthur Marshall. I approached him, bid him good morning and offered to show him to his place. He looked at me quizzically and then asked didn't he know me. I confessed that I had worked for him for a year at Cambridge, managing assemblies for the droop nose and visor for Concorde which Marshalls designed and built. He graciously wished me well in my second RAF career.

[Buster11]

Unless I'm losing memory cells even faster than I thought, wasn't the rather portly person in the photo in post #73 outed as a Walt some months ago?

Sorry for the slight gap in mentioning this; I've only just caught up with PPRuNe after some time away.

[Blacksheep]

He may well be a bit of a "Walt" but I recall some other rather odd characters serving as VRT Officers with the ATC. That said, he should fire his tailor.

[roving]

Nigel Rose on vides relating stories.

Squadron Leader Nigel Rose on his Spitfire being hit (http://www.appnationconference.com/video/yKoWSxwRRQgA)

[Danny42C]

roving,

Further to my #104, I have just Googled the <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf3UtmHLKUU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf3UtmHLKUU)> you gave me (#103), but can't find the 59 min youtube of the ATA again.

Probably just me. What am I doing wrong ?

Danny.

[megan]

outed as a Walt some months agoThe gentleman was mentioned in a thread elsewhere here, and I recall that he was said to be heavily involved in promoting the RAF with the youth, or some such, by someone in the know. Never go by appearances.

[roving]

roving,

Further to my #104, I have just Googled the <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf3UtmHLKUU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf3UtmHLKUU)> you gave me (#103), but can't find the 59 min youtube of the ATA again.

Probably just me. What am I doing wrong ?

Danny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faJuJV31L-A

[Warmtoast]

Danny (your #104)

As to Bridges, the two over the Menai Strait (Telford's lovely old suspension road bridge) and the old box railway bridge (burned out after my time) absolutely begged to be flown under with our Spits and Vampires. But the certainty of detection (and subsequent sacking) kept our youthful ardour in check.
One occasion when flying under a bridge did go disasterously wrong is recounted in my post here:
http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/388510-flying-through-tower-bridge-2.html#post5187195
(Post #22)

[Danny42C]

Warmtoast (#115),

Thanks ! - the chap tellls the story of the hour of his glorious escapade somewhere.
Mentally unfit for Court Martial ? - I don't think so !

Danny.

[Danny42C]

roving (#114),

Thank you - second link works fine !

Danny.

[ROC man]

I can report a very healthy turnout of Royal Canadian Air Cadets and veterans at the the Military Museum, Calgary on the 17th for the annual Battle of Britain parade. There was a fine speech by a RAF WingCo. The museum is well worth a visit.

[Jamster_21]

roving (#103),

Thanks for the link ! Internet Explorer wouldn't play, but got it on Google Chrome. Didn't find Ray Hanna flying under any bridges...



Danny, re your #104:
What you seek is Winston Bridge at Barnard Castle, not too far from your adopted home...

I can't post a link as I'm under-posted but, searching your usual search engine for "Spitfire Bridge Barnard Castle" brings up the you tube link at the top...

[NutLoose]

Here you go Danny

https://youtu.be/Xf3UtmHLKUU

[roving]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf3UtmHLKUU

apologies nutLoose, my duplication was unintentional.

[NutLoose]

Actually I should be apologising, after all you helped Danny out first and I missed it.

[Danny42C]

Jamster 21 (#119) and Nutloose (#120),

Thanks a lot - will look up ASAP.

Cheers both, Danny.

[Danny42C]

Somewhere, on PPRuNe, I read a reference to an article by Wg Cdr Stanford-Tuck, to the effect that many of the Battle of Britain pilots were not the extrovert Rugby Club hearties of public imagination, but often quieter, introverted types. Google cannot find it for me: can anyone here please trace it for me ?

More in hope than any expectation,

Danny.

[Onceapilot]

Somewhere, on PPRuNe, I read a reference to an article by Wg Cdr Stanford-Tuck, to the effect that many of the Battle of Britain pilots were not the extrovert Rugby Club hearties of public imagination, but often quieter, introverted types. Google cannot find it for me: can anyone here please trace it for me ?

More in hope than any expectaion,

Danny.

Hi Danny, That could be an interesting quote. I did think that I had a reasonable idea of life in the pre/early war RAF. I have read of the fairly regimented life of a late 1930's Regular Junior Officer. Formal dinning every night, formal system for any late night returns, 48hr passes etc. Things were more restrictive for more junior ranks. I get the impression that before WWII, the life was reminiscent of Public school. Mess life seems to have been more like the lock-in period of my Officer training, with more beer (but probably less Strippers!). Beyond that, I do have the strong impression that the Royal Auxiliary Air Force (before the War) was something of a well-off chap's rugger-club type of thing for the aircrew. I know that all changed somewhat with the progress of the War but, until then, a Service commission usually relied on a private income. :uhoh: Cheers

OAP

[Archimedes]

Somewhere, on PPRuNe, I read a reference to an article by Wg Cdr Stanford-Tuck, to the effect that many of the Battle of Britain pilots were not the extrovert Rugby Club hearties of public imagination, but often quieter, introverted types. Google cannot find it for me: can anyone here please trace it for me ?

More in hope than any expectation,

Danny.

I wonder if it may be a reference to his introduction to the original edition of Chris Shores and Clive Williams Aces High? The bit which looks relevant is:

Regarding the title of the book, Aces High, I found myself flinching slightly at this, as I think most fighter pilots always have done.
The term, fighter ace, always seemed to me to conjure up the mental picture of some gay, abandoned, almost irresponsible young pilot leaping into his aircraft and rearing off into the sky to chalk up victories like knocking off glass bottles in the circus rifle range. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Any fighter pilot, after his first combat, is very well aware that air fighting on the scale of the last war was a cold, calculating, cata and mouse type combat, which required great preparation, lightning reactions, first-class team work and above all, cool decisive leadership

[Tankertrashnav]

OAP Bearing in mind of course that about one third (approximately 1,000) of Battle of Britain pilots were NCOs,

[Buitenzorg]

Danny,

I remember reading a comment from Wg Cdr Stanford Tuck to that effect, but it was an introduction to a book (not the one mentioned by Archimedes ). Maybe "Spitfire in Colour" of the seventies? As best as I can recall:

"Wartime propaganda depicted Spitfire pilots as ginger, beer swilling types. Indeed, with very few exceptions, nothing could have been further from the truth. Flying fighters was very much a cat-and-mouse affair, and woe betide the pilot who was casual, or who daydreamed. He would soon 'cop it up the back end' or one of his pals would."

[Onceapilot]

OAP Bearing in mind of course that about one third (approximately 1,000) of Battle of Britain pilots were NCOs,

Yes, Quite.
Formal dinning every night, formal system for any late night returns, 48hr passes etc. Things were more restrictive for more junior ranks.

Cheers

OAP

[Onceapilot]

depicted Spitfire pilots as ginger, beer swilling types. Indeed, with very few exceptions, nothing could have been further from the truth. "

I guess Ginger was operating without Biggles?
;)

OAP

[Archimedes]

Somewhere, on PPRuNe, I read a reference to an article by Wg Cdr Stanford-Tuck, to the effect that many of the Battle of Britain pilots were not the extrovert Rugby Club hearties of public imagination, but often quieter, introverted types. Google cannot find it for me: can anyone here please trace it for me ?

More in hope than any expectation,

Danny.

After a bit more browsing directed by Buitenzorg's thoughts, I think that it's the introduction to Alfred Price's Spitfire at War (Ian Allen, 1974)

I'll type it up fully later, but the key bit is:

'I think the average member of the public during the war thought of Spitfire pilots as being gay, carefree, beer-swilling types, rather like the rugger club members one could see being very noisy in any pub on a Saturday night. Indeed, with a very few exceptions, nothing could have been further from the truth. Wartime flying and especially air combat in Spitfires, was a very cold calculating 'cat and mouse' affair. Woe betide any fighter pilot who was casual or who daydreamed - he would soon 'cop it up the back end', or one of his pals would.'

[Archimedes]

The full version, which - unsurprisingly - does the necessary duty of saying good things about the book, offered so that the observations about rugger types can be seen in their context.

When Alfred Price invited me to write a foreword to this book I was, of course, honoured: but I had the passing thought "Oh dear! Another air book to wade through".

My fears were quite unfounded. As soon as I had read the first few pages I was held by it and read on almost non-stop until I finished with Maffres's excellent 'Spitfire Swansong'

I think the average member of the public during the war thought of Spitfire pilots as being gay, carefree, beer-swilling types, rather like the rugger club members one could see being very noisy in any pub on a Saturday night. Indeed, with a very few exceptions, nothing could have been further from the truth. Wartime flying and especially air combat in Spitfires, was a very cold calculating 'cat and mouse' affair. Woe betide any fighter pilot who was casual or who daydreamed - he would soon 'cop it up the back end', or one of his pals would. However, in spite of their deadly business, the Spitfire pilots had one great advantage - their aircraft - which they came to love in that strange way that men will love their cars or boats.

I got my hands on a Spitfire for the first time on a crisp morning in December 1938. It belonged to No 19 Squadron at Duxford. From the first moment I sat quietly in the cockpit, going through all the instruments, cockpit checks, take off and landing procedures, etc, I thought "if it comes to a war, this is the girl for me." Later that day, after my first flight, I felt this even more and for the first time in any aircraft I felt I was really part of it.

Just over a year later the tremendous thrill of getting my first Me109 over Dunkirk justified my high opinion of the handling and fighting qualities of the Spitfire. As the years went past she carried me through countless combats and difficult situations and gave of her utmost every time it was demanded. She was a true thoroughbred.

I was so enthralled reading this book and recalling the memories it brought back of the airmen I had known, the flying and the wonderful spirit which exited in those years, that I was very tempted to write considerably more: but that is not my part in this book.

All I can say, with sincerity, is that this is a fine book about a fine aircraft and fine men and add my thanks to Alfred Price for asking me to write these few words.

[Danny42C]

Archimedes (#132),

Although I never got to fly them operationally, I trained on Spitfires during the war, and flew a few hundred hours in them postwar. I can endorse every word of Maffre's "Spitfire Swansong". There simply cannot ever be another aircraft like them for sweet handling and lightness of touch.

Danny.

[VX275]

"Wartime propaganda depicted Spitfire pilots as ginger, beer swilling types.


Whilst checking my facts about Sgt (as he was then) 'Ginger' Lacey DFM and bar I noticed this quote which may have proved the propaganda as accurate.

"I'd rather fight in a Spitfire but fly in a Hurricane," said Ginger Lacey. As he raised his glass of ale, quaffed the foam off the top.

[Danny42C]

VX275 (#134),

Are you sure you've got the quotation the right way round ? Although I have only a few hours in the Hurricane, and have never fired a shot in anger in either, I'm told that the Hurricane was the better gun platform, but IMHO the Spitfire much nicer to fly in.

Blowing the froth off a quiet pint hardly constitutes "beer swilling" (I have been known to chew the froth off the "dark waters of the Liffey" myself on occasion).

Danny.

[insty66]

Danny,

I've just seen your reply, Gen Arnold seems to have been quite a leader.

I found the quote in Steven Bungays book "The Most Dangerous Enemy" (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/236420.The_Most_Dangerous_Enemy)

I regularly lend it to people who need to know more or who don't realise how close Britain came to being out of the war. Nor indeed how "normal" The Few were.

[Danny42C]

insty66 (#136),

Don't quite see the relevance of General Arnold to the Battle of Britain - Air Marshal Dowding was the man. But we should be eternally grateful to "Hap" Arnold (Chief of the Air Corps 1938-41), for the introduction of the "Arnold Scheme", and the "British Flying Training Schools" in the US, which trained thousands of pilots for the RAF (including me) from summer 1941 (when the US was still "neutral" (?)

Have Posted on this Thread at #55; #67; #87; and #100, among others. A young man of 18, I lived through that fateful summer of 1940. You are right: in May of that year we were on the point of surrender (the Chamberlain/Halifax Government was ready to throw in the towel). Two things saved Britain: Churchill's magnificent oratory as he took over the Government and rallied the people, and the deathless performance of his "Few" over the next few months.

By Christmas Britain was back in the fight - and the young man had, with thousands of others from all over the Empire and the occupied lands of Europe, (and the US ! - the "Eagle Squadron"), practically gone down on his knees at the Recruiting Office, begging for admittance to that glorious company of men.

IMHO, the Battle of Britain was a "Score Draw", but one that was far more advantageous to one side than the other. Hitler planned to invade Britain, he failed. The RAF (all we had left, really) alone stood in his way, determined he should not. They succeeded. It was enough !

Our "Meeja" seem to have forgotten all about 15 September (the turning point) this year, but that is another matter.

Danny.

[Haraka]

IMHO, the Battle of Britain was a "Score Draw", but one that was far more advantageous to one side than the other
Danny , I think that comment sums it up fairly from both sides. Galland said almost the same, including to my father in the 50's before it became acceptable.
Often forgotten in the overall "Score" is the additional initial loss of R.A.F. aircraft on the ground on airfields ( an early Luftwaffe objective).
By later holding the Luftwaffe to a "draw" the U.K . objective was indeed achieved.
Whether Germany had already decided to hit Russia is a moot point to be argued by historians . The end result for the U.K. was the same , a turning point in the war
(A fact conveniently now obscured by those with other, "common cause", agendas.)

[larssnowpharter]

Re the Spitfire v Hurricane discussion. My father joined the Irish Army as a sergeant pilot in, I think, 1943. He flew with them until 1949 ish before joining the RAF.

In the Irish Army Air Corps he flew Hurricanes that had 'lost their way' as well as, after 1945, Seafires. He always preferred the Hurricane for its extra manoeuvrability and control harmonisation.

That said, his favourite aircraft was the DH Hornet.

The old boy is still going at 93 with, as he puts it,
over 5000 hours being pulled around the skies by Rolls Royce piston engines.