New Police Helicopter for Germans NRW-Police

[Flying Bull]

Hi,
today the policeflyingsqaudron of NRW received officialy their first new police helicopter from the minister in charge of the police.
A total of six Airbus H145T2 will be delivered until end of 2017.
Cost are around 65.000.000 €
http://www.polizeifliegerstaffel.de/userfiles/images/H145T2/H145_Ddorf_Halle.jpg

H145T2 Neuer Polizeihubschrauber für NRW - H145T2 (http://www.polizeifliegerstaffel.de/?Willkommen___Aktuelles___H145T2)

[handysnaks]

Very Gucci, glad to hear they're still going strong:ok:

[Flying Bull]

There are a couple of YouTubeVideos online

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[Flying Bull]

Well, 65million is not only for the birds.
Included is surplus technik like thermal imageing, groundschool for around 30 pilots, training for the operators with thermal imageing (there are new features and gadgets) and training for the technicians....

[homonculus]

Well it still sounds very expensive. I would love to see the cost:benefit analysis.....It is all very well for that nice minister of the police. It isnt his money. Glad I dont pay tax in Germany. Or at least I wont after Brexit!

[Flying Bull]

Hi homonculus,

how much does a saved live cost - or security?
Cut the costs down over 20 years - thats the normal cycle for change....

About the A139 - it doesn´t met the requirements which the squadron set up - so it was out (starting with the landing gear - skids were required cause of the experiences of having two types of helicopters in the hangar at the moment - one with wheels and one with skids...)

The big puckerfactor is the integration of the tatical equipment - the one which is already there - and the stuff which is to come or that one, which is not even invented.
But instead of ripping the helicopters appart and putting in new cabels and having problems with interference or not beeing able to use old and new equipment without having two sets of cabels and additional weight, the H145T2 policeversion offers something, no other manufactur does ;-)
That will save a bunch of money over the years - which would have to be paid with a "cheaper" helicopter - surely exceeding the amount which is now paid!

[homonculus]

Thank you Flying Bull

I really must take my hat off to German ingenuity in choosing an aircraft so it can integrate with equipment that hasnt been invented!!! Has this equipment been EASA approved or do you have to wait for it to be invented?

I surmise you pay German taxes so we will just watch from the sidelines your willingness to do so and support these 'interesting' developments. I think if a politician in this country suggested a more expensive aircraft would save 'a bunch of money' in this way we might be less trusting...

[whoknows idont]

I agree that the Airbus lobbying has way too much reach. Just look at German police aviation, it is currently around 95% AB, soon to be 100%. The French already are at 100% (numbers according to wikipedia).
HEMS is heading in a very similar direction, especially primary HEMS.
No doubt they build great helicopters. But looking at these numbers I just don't buy the story that they win every single bidding fair and square because their product is so superior for each and every mission. Other manufacturers build great helicopter as well.
It's a good concept to boost the domestic market. But the Italocopters are from the same market, why are they so successfully being pushed out?
The de facto absence of competition is not a healthy state for this industry.

[handysnaks]

Homonculus
I think if a politician in this country suggested a more expensive aircraft would save 'a bunch of money' in this way we might be less trusting...
Well it seems to work for defence Procurement and PFI Hospitals!

[Flying Bull]

Thank you Flying Bull

I really must take my hat off to German ingenuity in choosing an aircraft so it can integrate with equipment that hasnt been invented!!! Has this equipment been EASA approved or do you have to wait for it to be invented?

I surmise you pay German taxes so we will just watch from the sidelines your willingness to do so and support these 'interesting' developments. I think if a politician in this country suggested a more expensive aircraft would save 'a bunch of money' in this way we might be less trusting...

Well, there is a "little more" to policeflying than carchases and looking with thermal imageing for robbers or missing people (at least in germany).
Thats why capable plattforms are needed and not R44 with little FLIR systems are used.
And if you see that i.e. the iPhone started in 2007 - only 9 years ago, you might get a feeling, how fast development of technical gadgets go.
The BK117 used so far had multiple retrofits due to new FLIR-System integration with considrable downtime and problems running old and new systems on the same plattform (you just don´t throw working systems into the junk, if you know, how long it takes to get a broken one fixed again).
Nearly ervery policeequipment needs information from the helicopter, i.e. position, heading, altitude, speed and so on. You sure can add GPS-Antennas - but why add weight and cables, if you can get these information from the helicopter itself?
And vice versa, why putting extra monitors into the cockpit to display tactical information, which need approval and cost a fortune (in repair and replacement when broken), when you can use the monitors already build in?
Depending on the interface, tactical stuff doesn ´t need airworthyness approval - so stuff to be invented to catch the bad boys or find the missing people can be easily added in future.
That brings me to the questions about the other manufactures....
They had the same listing of things needed. And you can be sure, if there would have been any doubt about the way things were done around ordering a new helicopter, they would have called in their lawyers.
The other manufactures build helicopters - with some nice ones - and then start to add police equipment while Airbus looked, what is needed....
And again, it´s more to buying then just the price.
MD i.e. really spoiled its reputation in Germany with the service (or better- the non service)

[whoknows idont]

Every modern A/C has a standardized data bus, DITS, ARINC or whatever, that you can interface additional equipment to. What is different on the H145?
So far it just sounds like they had the best sales pitch.

[Flying Bull]

Every modern A/C has a standardized data bus, DITS, ARINC or whatever, that you can interface additional equipment to. What is different on the H145?
So far it just sounds like they had the best sales pitch.

Well, they might have - but they don't have the possibility to interact with external equipment...
Its not just data from the aircraft - its also data into the aircraft ...
Sounds easy, but isn't keeping flightsafty in mind.
Airbus might have an advantage, having military experience as well.
Its quite a difference getting the whole package to buying just the helicopter and bits and parts around other places.
As soon as something isn't working you either have one responsible or a couple of firms blaming the helicopter or the equipment or the one who did the wireing and so on.
Seen the later one and didn't like it.
Your are not by any chance with one of the competitors of Airbus, who didn' t made the homework to stay up to date?

[PANews]

It is an over simplification but the 'secret' to all this appears to be the manufacturers [AH] decision to offer a system rather than just the airframe.

Robinson did the same thing with their R44 Police [and later R66 Police] in that they provide a standard law enforcement airframe at a keen price. Mess about with the factory specification and you will pay a bigger price. You can change the EO/IR and searchlight if you will but everything else is off the menu.

Pretty much all that went before was piecemeal and almost every aircraft completed in the 1990s was a new adventure in how to do it wrong. Look at the UK NPAS fleet. Every one of the aircraft was designed by a different organisation and sometimes put together and modified by other organisations. That creates difficulties for installations, engineers maintaining and the ability of pilots to operate differing aircraft across the fleet.

They are currently trying to set one or two standards of EC135 to reduce the problems but only a new common airframe will eventually enable it to happen.

It is the same in some units in Germany. The NRW have two very different standards of BK117 and the EC155 that pilots need to be proficient on. When the fleet is 100% H145 the pilot training costs will fall and the ability of the pilots to know and understand their aircraft will greatly increase.

It is the same in the USA, nearly all their many H125s come out of anything like a dozen completion shops.

The 'other' manufacturers have not yet grasped that concept - and may never do - but the prime decision lies with the police in that they need to decide what they need from their fleets and minimalise the number of types they buy.

A Federal Police fleet of 100 can afford to have 2-3 types but smaller fleets simply cannot have the luxury of 'one of these' 'two of those' and 'one of those' especially if that means having airframes from different manufacturers as well.

On the last point, safety also comes into this - I expect there is little worse in an emergency for the pilot of three diverse types having to even spend a millisecond deciding whether he/she is in a Notar, left tail rotor, right tail rotor, Feneston or clockwise or counter clockwise main rotor..... as the earth gets closer and closer....

[Flying Bull]

@PANews - nicely written :ok:
You pinpointed it!

[eivissa]

H145 has an ARINC BUS system as well. Not sure if its only used for communication between Helionix and GTN750 or if it can also be used for external exquipment. Helionix does support video inputs from external sources like Euronav 7 or video cameras.

[whoknows idont]

Your are not by any chance with one of the competitors of Airbus, who didn' t made the homework to stay up to date?

Absolutely not. Just sceptically eyeballing the rising monoculture of helicopters in our skies.
As I said, I think AB builds great helicopters. What you guys explained about the interfaceability does sound interesting (but still a bit vague).
The rapidly growing marketshare of AB does still spook me, though.

Yes, MD did set the bar for customer service way, way below the competition. Even below AB and AW, and that seems like quite an achievement. And it almost seems purposefully. It's a pity.

BTW. I didn"t get your skids vs wheels hint, would you care to elaborate?

[Flying Bull]

Hi whoknows_idont ;-)

I´m in the second bunch of pilots to get the rating - so my information also are second hand from visits to the squadron, which starts with the new helicopter....

About the skids vs wheels...
In the past some very "wise" man sat together and had an idea about the future of the squadron.....
They didn´t listen to the ones, who had to fly because of their endlessly wisdom....
So from 10 BO105 and 2 BK117 they decided, that three Cessna 182, three BK and three EC155 would best fit future needs.
After two Cessnas and two EC155 were purchased they experienced, that their plan wasn´t that brilliant....
We managed to buy the last three BK117C1 produced and ended up with two Cessna, two EC155 and five BK117 (two getting close to 30 years by now)
The EC155 is a nice helicopter to fly - but less brillant for policework - and was used either for transport (not such a big deal) and mainly for extraction of special forces, either by landing close to the target area or via rappelling or fast roping.
Well - it worked cause we had a close look on the fueling side, keeping the weight as low as possible....
But while working with the EC155 we very often had problems to find a decent landing spot with barrowsize wheels and the weight of a little truck.
Often the Co-Pilot got out in a low hover and gave signs to the pilot - or the helicopter had to search for a dislocated landing spot - adding time to pick up and relocate the special forces again.
(Just imagine AMOK-type scenarios - where the bad boy moves on - you land where he was - and have to move on to where actually he is....
or deploying special forces to set up a trap - and pick them up again to bring them to another spot, when the bad boys went another way...)
So the decision was made to replace the current fleet with a new helicopter - with skids, cause we have the different experiences with BK117 and EC155.
If Agusta could have fitted skids - and could have fullfilled the integrationwishes - it would have been an interesting competitor.
There were talks to them as well - but they said (as I heard), that fixed wheel landing gear is as good as skids (military uses them as well)
But we´re not the military, we had damaged brakelines, gear stuck in soft ground and so on and have very good experiences with skids.
Pilots want skids - and this time actually it was an questionare before they started to put together the points a new helicopter has to fullfill! :-)
Out came a list with
must have - if not - out
should have - giving points
nice to have - giving points
so that offers from manufactors could be compared fair

[hueyracer]

I get your points, but this

Often the Co-Pilot got out in a low hover and gave signs to the pilot - or the helicopter had to search for a dislocated landing spot - adding time to pick up and relocate the special forces again.


is lack of pilot training and/or experience, and not a problem with the helicopter.

All over the world, pilots are flying (bigger) helicopters into extremely tight landing zones-single pilot.......and whoever now wants to add "yes, but thats not under pressure....."....has no idea of the pressure flying logging....


Other than that, it seems the squadron is growing...looking out for those adds looking for new pilots, then...

[GoodGrief]

Other than that, it seems the squadron is growing...looking out for those adds looking for new pilots, then...

hueyracer, you have openend Pandora's box.
The German police forces don't employ professional pilots, they send their own police officers to flight school.
Pilots have to be officers.

[hueyracer]

I know-this is why i posted this here.....

[Flying Bull]

Hi hueyracer,
its one thing to bring the forces in - if needed, they even jump out from a low hover or just one wheel light on the ground.
It´s another story to park it so, that you can shut it down.
One molehole can ruin your day - and I might recal the accident - I think somewhere in south east asia, where the pilot let a passenger disembark at a footballfield and sunk in with one gear - lifted off thereafter and at the end fell out of the sky!
And if you have someone, who has a look while putting weight on the wheels on an unknown ground, thats much better than needing a trailer to get the helicopter back home!
If you have natural grown ground to land on thats quite a difference to mostly farmland, which is processed on a regular basis - often down to 1/2 a meter!
Add a little rain, which is here quite commen and you´ll understand, why we prefer skids instead of wheels.

[homonculus]

Sorry Flying Bull but you have indeed been 'a little vague' justifying this massive cost. Your comments about 'special forces' just reinforces my disquiet about the power of the state.

Indeed the UK did do PFI but this was one Mr Brown keeping capital expenditure off our books which was allowed by another fudge of accounting from Europe. He didnt last very long when he tried to get re elected but sadly we are still paying for this. I wasnt suggesting our politicians were that much better!

[hueyracer]

Even Wheels come with Bear Paws......or "Snow landing aids".....so it comes back to equipment and/or pilot training/experience......

But lets not turn this into a discussion pro/con skids vs. gear.....

[Flying Bull]

Hi homonculus,
massive costs - is how you see it or everbody with a normal income.
If you change the approach of looking at the costs - and start thinking about how many personal and transportation you need, to fullfill the task, i.e. a search, wou will see, that you actual can save money by using a helicopter.
The british proved it in some of the moors - droped a couple of dummies and set out a force to find them. It took them days (and you might now, how unpleasent it can be to survive cold nights...) and they even didn´t find every dummy.
Then they sent out a helicopter, which found all of the dummies in a few hours....
And abou the special forces, they are an equivelent of SWAT (Special Weapons and Tactics), comeing in, when the normal police can´t handle the situation.
Hostages, organized crime stuff like that. We have a couple of bases - sure you can set up more, if you find the personal capable and willing - but that isn´t cheap either - so why not deploy them with the helicopters already there?

@hueyracer,
yeah, there are bear paws - but that´s hardly working with retractable gear - and on fixed gear adds extra drag through every flight.
Our decission was made ;-)

[PANews]

Clearly there are people writing here under secret identities that mask their background but I would surmise that Flying Bull is closely involved with the operator NRW and giving clear and concise reasons why after careful consideration [which he clearly sets out] his unit decided that wheels were not for them.

So why is this information being dissed and argued?

[homonculus]

Because some of us have a healthy suspicion of people who tell us they are experts and know better than we do about public expenditure. I wasnt aware anyone on this thread was dissing police helicopters, merely asking why they seem to have become so so expensive. Flying Bull is doing a sterling job but I for one remain unconvinced a cheaper machine would not have been better in terms of cost:benefit

[handysnaks]

Do you feel the same way about the experts telling us that the NHS needs more money?