S61N crash Florida

[Flapwing]

N805AR crash, 3 fatalities

[John Eacott]

Three dead after helicopter crashes, bursts into flames in US (https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/32552031/three-dead-after-helicopter-crashes-bursts-into-flames-in-us/#page1)

Three people have been killed after a military-style helicopter crashed and burst into flames in central Florida, authorities say.

Police spokeswoman Karyn Barber said the crash occurred Tuesday afternoon (local time) in a largely developed area in Palm Bay, southeast of Orlando.

Firefighters and police arrived at the wreck to find the helicopter completely engulfed in flames.

Footage shows black smoke billowing from the older model, military-style helicopter as emergency crews worked to extinguish the blaze.

https://s.yimg.com/dh/ap/default/160906/Helii1.jpg

https://s.yimg.com/dh/ap/default/160906/elli22.jpg

The fire was contained within ten minutes.

"My understanding is that no one walked away," Brevard County Fire Rescue Public Information Officer Don Walker told ABC.

The helicopter operated out of the Melbourne Airport, and witnesses reported seeing it flying low before it went down.

Officials weren't immediately saying what caused the crash.

The identities of those killed have not yet been released.

[SASless]

Cost of Freedom just went up.

Sad news!


DoD/State Department contractor outfit....started out as part of Blackwater back in about 2008.

[Vertical Freedom]

Rest in Peace Brothers

[riddlerin]

:(Rest In Peace

[TowerDog]

. Three people have been killed after a military-style helicopter crashed and burst into flames in central Florida, authorities say.

Military-style helicopter?
That would be the -61, North Sea Platform workhorse.
A DC-3 would be a military style transport I guess.
Slow news day.
RIP to the dead, always sad to see these kind of head lines in the news. :(

[Bampei]

AAR Airlift aircraft on a maintenance test flight.

Names not yet released of two pilots and one engineer.

Sad news....and I'm sure I will know the pilots, once identified. RIP

(Former AAR)

[Geoffersincornwall]

Not a lot of rotational damage visible on the main or tail rotor blades??

[212man]

Not a lot of rotational damage visible on the main or tail rotor blades??

Yes, I noted that, and no forward speed or debris trail.

[OvertHawk]

The wreckage is very reminiscent of several 61's I've seen photos of that landed reasonably ok then burned out on the ground.

Maybe it's possible that this was a forced landing and events overtook the crew before they could escape?

Very sad whatever the circumstances.

[212man]

Maybe it's possible that this was a forced landing and events overtook the crew before they could escape

Had that exact conversation with a friend recently. Reminds me of the Bristow Coastguard accident (G-BBHM): https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422ee8d40f0b613420001d9/2-2004_G-BBHM.pdf

[JohnDixson]

AAR website has pics of their machines and calls them 61N models. They look like 61Ls though: fixed landing gear. The 61N had sponsons, into which the gear retracted, and were FAA certified amphibious,.i.e., you could legally put them in the water. Just a nit. Good eyes, 212. MTF machine was probably empty other than the crew.

[ScotiaQ]

The machine used to be an S61N UK Reg G-BXSN

[industry insider]

Looks like it might have been one of your old girls with a V8 registration, 212?

ROTORSPOT - Production list for Sikorsky S-61 (http://www.rotorspot.nl/product/s61.php)

61717 VR-UDZ[2], V8-UDZ, N905AL, N805AR

[XA290]

The machine used to be an S61N UK Reg G-BXSN

ScotiaQ....... I'm pretty sure it was not G-BXSN as that had a serial number of 61-761.

My last involvement with "SN" was in the Gulf of Mexico with air logistics and it became N161AL.

I agree the picture does look very similar to another ex-old friend, G-BBHM. Very sad indeed.

[Variable Load]

The correct history was quoted by industry insider - it was an ex-Brunei Shell machine. I first flew it in 2002.

[212man]

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa50/S92ctc/DSC_0017.jpg (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/S92ctc/media/DSC_0017.jpg.html)

This is her departing Anduki for the last time, to Muara port for the sea crossing to the US.

[SASless]

N Models get the sponsons removed and fixed gear installed along with other Mods to provide a better configuration for Bush/Overland Only Operations.

Add Carson Blades and some other improvements and the lift capacity is much better than the standard N Model Configuration.

Phil Kemp would be a very good source of info on that probably.

[nowherespecial]

Interim report:
http://ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20160906X60042&key=1

[industry insider]

The 41-seat capacity, tricycle-gear helicopter, serial number 61717, was manufactured in 1974. It was powered by two General Electric CT58-140-2, 1500-horsepower turboshaft engines.It must have been overweight then? Seriously 41 seats? Shabby reporting and peer review process.

[CertGuy]

Well, the TC Data Sheet lists max passengers at 39 + 2 pilots. That's 41.

Minimum Crew: 2 (pilot, copilot)
Maximum Passengers: 39, limited by emergency exit requirements

Shabby reporting by who? Looks accurate, though obviously they weren't outfitted for 41. I doubt many are.

[212man]

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/04d7abf9f420a47786257c670064810c/$FILE/1H15_Rev_18.pdf

I wonder how that looks? Maybe they use narrower seats in the right hand double rows, and then add doubles to the left?

[SASless]

Insider....it said "Seats"....not "Passengers".

Small detail I know....but.....really!


Sadly, the FAA and their Preliminary Reports do not have a wonderful record of excellence.

If they get the Tail Number right seems to be about the limit of accuracy sometimes.

[212man]

, the FAA and their Preliminary Reports

NTSB even - small detail I know..... ;)

[SASless]

212man.....finger/brain interface problem....thinking one thing and typed another.:{

[industry insider]

I will stand corrected on the TCDS then, I should have checked. Never saw more than 23 +3 crew in my day but the Penzance aircraft carried 30+ I think.

[John Eacott]

Updated report and some pre and post crash video:

Remaining Palm Bay helicopter crash victims ID'd (http://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/2016/09/14/authorities-name-other-two-victims-palm-bay-helicopter-crash/90359684/)

Authorities confirmed the identities of two other people killed in a fiery helicopter crash last week in Palm Bay.

Brevard County officials named Jason Dunnam, 41, and Bill Nesbitt, 54, as the two other people killed in the Sept. 6 accident involving the Sikorsky S-61N helicopter. The pilot was identified Tuesday.

Authorities had tentative names but used dental and medical records to confirm the identify the men, all employees of AAR Airlift. The company has a hangar at Orlando Melbourne International Airport. The helicopter was on a "post-maintenance test flight" when the 1974 model aircraft crashed in a remote field in a mostly rural portion of Palm Bay..

The body of Greggory Cluff, 57, a retired Utah National Guard master aviator with more than 6,000 hours of flight experience, was found in the pilot’s seat of the air craft. Dunnam was identified as the co-pilot.

The accident happened as the helicopter hovered about 100 feet off the ground. The three filed a flight plan before leaving Orlando Melbourne International Airport.

The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating the accident.

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/f6971d504a6d894cb7944de3d383c26c5c6bb869/c=0-0-533-401&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/2016/09/14/Brevard/Brevard/636094556349822492-helicoptercrash1.jpg

[Steve Stubbs]

Actually Insider, at full occupancy it was 32+3 Crew.

And climbing out of the Penzance strip at maximum weight when the WAT Curve allowed was quite something in terms of the decision height at the top of the 20 Knot climb.

I only ever did rejected take-offs from CDP out of there in training, the critical thing was not to dump the collective after touchdown as the ground was way too soft. But the permiiter fence was very close after stopping!

[Geoffersincornwall]

Yes Steve - methinks the guy who approved that profile/WAT had his 'can-do' hat on that day. ;-)

G.

[SASless]

Total fuel on board of what....30 minutes?

[AnFI]

Quote; "The accident happened as the helicopter hovered about 100 feet off the ground"

looks to me like it happenned on the ground

engine failure presumably?

[[email protected]]

Read 212 man's post #11 - for the likely explanation rather than making stuff up:ugh:

[AnFI]

crab i do note the ref to the CG heli fire
but I think I have as much right to speculate about a likely cause
and I would say more likely to be engine fail (and 2nd place inability to hover at height)

given "as the helicopter hovered about 100 feet"
anyhow it is just speculation either way unless there's some other inside gen i am not aware of
someone here probably knows what it was

[[email protected]]

So - engine failure at 100' - lower lever to contain Nr, push 10 - 15 deg nose down to gain speed. If ETL and say VTOSS achieved then fly away - if not flare and overpitch onto the ground - neither sound like a recipe for a fatal crash and all consuming fire.

Engine fire in 100' hover - as above but shutting down burning engine and using fire ext buttons.

That's the big advantage of a twin AnFi, the remaining engine gives you some options.

[chopjock]

That's the big advantage of a twin AnFi, the remaining engine gives you some options.

Is that a good thing? Thinking about those options could waste valuable time and lead you into a false sense of security...

[212man]

Is that a good thing? Thinking about those options could waste valuable time and lead you into a false sense of security...

If your brain works that slowly, you're probably in the wrong profession!

[Lonewolf_50]

Here's something for me to look forward too.


When the NTSB issues its report I will be looking it over to see if their assessment includes "one too many engines" or "extra engine carried created task overload for the crew" or words to that effect. :rolleyes: I expect that I won't find any of that, but maybe the NTSB will surprise me.

[CertGuy]

Lonewolf,
Now that was funny.

[[email protected]]

Yes, excellent:ok:

[chopjock]

Lonewolf
When the NTSB issues its report I will be looking it over to see if their assessment includes "one too many engines" or "extra engine carried created task overload for the crew" or words to that effect.

LOL Or perhaps the report might state "this aircraft has twin engine redundancy and should not have crashed, PERIOD"!

[AnFI]

someone here must have a reasonable idea off the record of what happened.
what happened?
(apart from the report of the 'accident happened at 100ft, when it looks like it happened on the ground)

[Lonewolf_50]

AnFI, I suspect that the people who work for that company don't spend much time on internet discussion boards talking about their operations, nor their aircraft.


I am eager to find out as well, but I'll have to wait for the NTSB's next offering. (Same as with the recent loss of the 525 in Texas).