EK - how long for upgrade to command?

[Thomas Buttchereit]

Hello dear EK-collegues,

just passed the Ek recruitment and awaiting the offer letter with contract.
About to give up a 15 year First Officer Time with Lufthansa with no further career option possible.

HR at EK were taking about 4 years to command upgrade. Some FO on A330 say it more looks like 7 years.
I know, probalby hard to predict... everything changes quickly.

Any ideas from your side?

[donpizmeov]

At the moment its about 5 years. Not all of the fellas hired 5 years ago will be upgraded by the years end, so next year it will be longer. We have 80 380s now. We are getting a fleet of 120. To say 4 years is highly unlikely might be a true statement.

[fatbus]

In4 years bound to be 400-500 Capts gone

[3Greens]

Why isn't any promotion to Captain available at Lufthansa?

[donpizmeov]

Good point fatbus.

[Thomas Buttchereit]

Thanks for your Feedbacks.
Really appreciate your comments.

Lufthansa is totally sizing down. Some new routes with the A340-300 are flown with Lufthansa cityline pilots (collegues from the Canadair).
A lot of shorthaul routes from ex LH320 routes are now with Germanwings (or in near future with Eurowings). LH Cargo is also shrinking.
So no command Upgrades since 4 years and no Upgrades to come....:bored:
Looks like trying to stay a happy First Officer with good paid salarly and homebase Munich is a good Option...:rolleyes:

[springbok449]

Longhaul with Luftie based in MUC? Please do yourself a favour and stay, don't make the mistake that others (myself included) have made to chase a quicker command, in the long term you will end up regretting it.

[in freedom]

Kollege, bitte lies hier die umfangreichen Threads zu EK durch. Wenn Du das machst, bist Du komplett wahnsinnig. Die guten Zeiten sind bei EK vorbei. Die Mitarbeiter wurden schon in den letzten Jahren trotz hoher Gewinne immer mehr ausgepresst. Und jetzt sind die Flieger auch leer, werden Strecken gestrichen ... Und die Kollegen hauen aus gutem Grund in Scharen ab. Wie man behandelt wird, kannst Du Dir in Deinen wildesten Alpträumen nicht vorstellen. Melde Dich gerne per PM

[CATI]

Stay at LH. I am currently at Germanwings and evaluated for myself joining EK. Meanwhile it is clear that EK is not a good option, at least when you have a reasonable job with good salary. Stay cool, no project at Lufthansa or Eurowings works well and times will come when the company needs us. Look at the huge amount of CPs retiring in the next 5 years.

[Mach_Krit]

Wenn du von der lh zu ek kommst haue ich dir persönlich eine rein.

[ExDubai]

If you want to join the ME, I'd have a closer look at QR. Currently the better gig....

[ExDubai]

@ Mach_Krit Das war aber jetzt nicht nett :D Jeder ist seines Glückes Schmied...

[VLS with ice]

Had a chat with a senior FO from LH during a layover in HKG (early in the evening). Told him I'd swap my left seat for his right seat. If that was you, where is my invitation to join LH ;-) ?

[Mach_Krit]

@exdubai mir doch egal 😁

[Thomas Buttchereit]

Hello Collegues,

wow. I am quite impressed with that feedback and also directly via email.
Really thanks a lot.
I am really reconsidering staying where I am and try to be happy in Munich.
Prost...:ok:
All the feedback from the flying world outside is really appreciated...:D

[AviatoR21]

I would happily give my left nut to join LH and live in Bayern! Command is a great career move but like I've heard many times before, its all the same just the money is better. Quality of life is KING! Enjoy your Weissbier and Pretzels and leave the desert for the desperado's! No offence but it's true.

[Ghost_Rider737]

I am an FO at a legacy carrier as well. In a similar situation with 15+ years to a short haul command.

I had a few drinks with an EK 777 FO two nights ago.
He left a legacy carrier to join EK and has regretted it since the day he joined.

he says EK is hell. flying 90+ hours on average. His family takes strain and he is always tired.

I'm staying put and I suggest you do as well.

[felixthecat]

Don't do it. I have not had a roster under 96 hours for 6 months, things are getting worse as time passes. It's not the airline I joined when I joined. No work life balance at all...seriously NONE.

[Me Myself]

Thomas

You would be totally crazy to leave LH with a Munich basing.....or even without a Munich basing, all that for a totally hypothetical command in 4 years ???
I'm sure it must be frustrating to wait for a command that's not coming, but you live in one of the most beautiful parts of the world with an incridible lifestyle .......!!
Ich wohne auf der anderen Seite des Rheins und habe es immer bereut nicht bei der LH arbeiten zu können.
Geiles Land, geile Stadt.....bleib doch wo du bist und genieße !!
FG

[Tu.114]

With LH in Munich, You have the following on the "good" side: a good contract with a rather solid company, an acceptable salary, a pension scheme, union representation, a fair legal system, appropriate duty and rest times, Your position a bit up the seniority list, and not forgetting a fine environment to live in for You and Your hypothetical family.

On the "bad" side, there is the general reorganisation of the company, leading to long upgrade times and some uncertainty about the working conditions in the future.

With Emirates, it seems to be the opposite. A possibly quick upgrade, although this is by no means granted and subject to the companies further development, is on the "good" side.

On the "bad" side, there is the meat grinder type roster, the lack of union representation, the companies ability to unilaterally impose changes to the employment contracts, the organisational unity between the aviation authority and the airline, the ever increasing costs of living vs. a stagnating salary, the extreme heat, the pollution, a rather different approach to jurisdiction and so on.

Of course, You need to do the maths Yourself and see which offer suits Your needs best. But do Your due diligence carefully and remember that there is no way back to where You are now, should You decide to go to EK and find it not to Your liking.

[CautionShortRunway]

Airline set to shift over to DWC in 2025 when annual capacity touches 120 million passengers. Emirates fleet will be between 280 and 300 widebody aircraft by the time it shifts to DWC, Clark said.

Emirates eyes 100 new destinations from Dubai World Central | GulfNews.com (http://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/emirates-eyes-100-new-destinations-from-dubai-world-central-1.1532561)

Fleet growth of 30 airplanes from current 250 to 280 in 2025. 4 Years to upgrade? With current resignation rate the earliest upgrade for anyone who joins now is minimum 8 years.

[Wingsoffury]

Someone said it on the previous page come to QR. Its at around 3-4 years for upgrade and is likely to reduce. Although, Doha whilst safe and family friendly, just isn't Dubai, regarding other activities. I have worked for both.

[SOPS]

I suggest you ask ( which you can't) how the crew on the Emirates crash are feeling. And then think to yourself.....it could be me. In this par of the world, you are only as good as your last sector....

[TineeTim]

More food for thought if you haven't heard enough: I think EK have had something like 45 guys come from QF on leave, another 5 came from NZ, at least 10 that I know of came from airlines in the U.S.= a total of at least 60 guys have joined EK on loan from other airlines (I know there are more but these are ones I know of for sure). Each of those guys had the option to stay at EK or go back to their previous airline. I believe 1 guy stayed from NZ. The QF guys have some more time to go but I believe only a handful of them are considering staying and all the Americans I know of have left. So out of that total of 60 guys, maybe 5 will stay at EK. Hardly a ringing endorsement.

[Geebz]

I'm a captain as a US Legacy. I would have no problem downgrading to FO just to eliminate 90% of the bs that a captain has to deal with. But for now they don't fly me much so I tolerate it. LHS isn't all it painted to be. I would stick with your home airline over a foreign one any day and if LHS is really what you want, ask for a leave of absence, one where you retain your seniority, then go fly in Japan or China. Find a month on, month off gig out there.

I have a lot of friends flying for ME carriers. Not one of them is happy.

[WB1900]

certain facts;


EK has delayed all 330/340 pilots for a fleettransfer to A380. FOs having the required hours on 330 did not get their upgrade with the excuse that thez won't reach the required 3000hr command on 330 to be eligible for a direct 380 command transfer. These guys have been replaced with DECs.
Now all the 330/340 will disappear and everybody will be transfered. Effectivly all 330 FO (even they have way enough hours accoring to the book) starting at 0 again because they need to do 2000hr on 380 for command (means a plus of 2 to 3 years), while joiners with approx 2,5 years A380 time are nominated for the training.
there is another point raising on the horizion. according to the Road to Command programm there will be training of 30 month before you will be considered for the real command course. this means presently no matter how many years and hours you spent in EK it will take another 3 years to get the command. this is a longterm FO programm showing u the light at the end but to keep u in the right seat.
so don't expect a short path to go there, beside the fact they have 3 years to reset you to zero in your training progress.


have fun joining EK

[flyinthesky]

I am sure that the details you post regarding the 330 guys being disadvantaged is true, however your text concerning the road to command staying upgrades by 30months is well wide of the mark.

Yes the RtC course is 30months long but it is not mandatory to do it all before upgrade if you have less then 30months to go. I myself have started the upgrade process and been to one forum and done no other part of the RtCcourse.

Doesn't mean that time to upgrade is shortening though!

[fatbus]

Some 330 CCQ FO will be fast tracked onto the RtC and as stated not required to take full 30 months . Stand by for upgrade requirements being changed

[BobDole]

The only constant at this place is change... The "rules" mean absolutely nothing.

[clear to land]

I really hope they do look after the 330/340 F/O's-it was complete joke that they took in DEC's from 320 only, who have minimal EK experience and they go to 380 Command within 6 months, but pilots from within, who have done their time with known and proven records are considered not qualified for upgrade-a huge kick in the nuts, demonstrating appalling personnel management and complete lack of awareness of the importance of morale-not just to the few directly affected but the whole pilot population who observe their colleagues being treated in such a manner.

[Rather Be Skiing]

I really hope they do look after the 330/340 F/O's-it was complete joke that they took in DEC's from 320 only, who have minimal EK experience and they go to 380 Command within 6 months, but pilots from within, who have done their time with known and proven records are considered not qualified for upgrade-a huge kick in the nuts, demonstrating appalling personnel management and complete lack of awareness of the importance of morale-not just to the few directly affected but the whole pilot population who observe their colleagues being treated in such a manner.

And there, in a nutshell, you have a description of what one is in for if they choose to join. Employees last.

[A320CaptDav]

And there, in a nutshell, you have a description of what one is in for if they choose to join. Employees last.
This sights the reality of working in the Middle East , no one has real control of their career path

[kungfu panda]

The moral of the story is; get your command in your own country before going expat.

You have no right to expect a contracting nation to upgrade you.

[tcas123]

It's seems like long way to command in EK , QR is much quicker ,3 years max , once process starts its will take 3 month to be cleared on the line , got many colleagues left to QR from UK in 2012 , guess what now are captains on 330/777/787 and some became LTC. wages are quite good , but the only thing to consider is the Doha life style , nothing much to do but good for family life .

[fatbus]

Tcas123/tata - who are you ? I think you need to get a life.

[Flyboy_SG]

Don't my friend ! Dont make the biggest mistake of your career. Look at it, this way. Hiring minimums is just few 1000 hrs and not even Jet rating is required. Meaning, someone who has joined few months back, with 2-3000 turbo time will be your junior. At EK it's all about date of joining. Stay where you are or look for something better. EK is not the best bet for sure, you will regret. Now at least you are home. At EK you wont even get more than 2-3 days block off. Plus a 5 year Bond for even the rated Pilots !

A big No.

[iamanaussiemavrick]

But it still happens in 5-6 years rite ? That's what I heard from people in Ek in 380 fleet ..

Also i saw the roster of a friend on 380 and found it really kool ...

It has much more off days than any 320 Job u can get !!!

[ExDubai]

Any guarantee that you'll join the A380 fleet? BTW a couple of years ago the traktor rosters didn't look that bad. Change is the only constant.....

[120feet]

As more 380's come online they will be able to make the rosters more efficient. I have my friend who is middle bid 97 hours 8 days off 380 CA. I think this is a rarity, but it could become common. 8 days off on a 380 appears hard to schedule consistently. Do not join any airline based on todays rosters, upgrade times etc. Those are not constants. I would urge you to look for deeper qualities. IMHO

[Flyboy_SG]

My friend who joined in 2011 just got released as 777PIC. He had total 5000 and 2000+ pic in narrow body jet at the time of joining.

[BigGeordie]

If you wanted a command in 5 years you should have joined 5 years ago. A glance at the number of aircraft on order (remember some are replacements) compared to the number of aircraft Emirates already has shows that the expansion will have stopped well before anybody joining now is in line for an upgrade. This means anybody joining now will have to rely on attrition and retirements to move up the seniority list before they get a command. There have been no significant aircraft orders for a while now.

[Gillegan]

As more 380's come online they will be able to make the rosters more efficient. I have my friend who is middle bid 97 hours 8 days off 380 CA. I think this is a rarity, but it could become common. 8 days off on a 380 appears hard to schedule consistently. Do not join any airline based on todays rosters, upgrade times etc. Those are not constants. I would urge you to look for deeper qualities. IMHO

Is there anyone out there who doubts that this is the target? As someone else posted, as they get more 380's, it will be easier to achieve those "productivity targets" across the board.

[Flyboy_SG]

Yes Geordie, It is not going to be 5 years anymore.

[natops]

More than 5 years to upgrade, yes. Already the case.
Upgrades stopped till DEC2016, probably into early 2017. Big backlog of NAC candidates, excited to start but delayed for months.

I think the big Mueller will make a few changes, stepping away from the low yield 380 operation to a lot of destinations in the States. The IAH operation is making profit again, after flying the 777 in there e.g.
Canceling the delivery of 380's, and changing this to another aircraft like the 350 looks like an option. EK stepping away from the flagship 380 is not unlikely.

Also think that everybody will go to the max hours, just 'enough' pilots to make it all happen. Dumping all the 'old' aircraft, and advertising with the youngest fleet on the world?
Giving it a year orso to clean the mess we are in at the moment, then think about expansion again, slowly.
The office staff will be hit hard, and they have to get used to do one job for one person with the normal amount of one person, not 5.

Interesting times ahead.

Dream on Dream on. zzzzzzz

[iamanaussiemavrick]

Hey guys ,


Isn't that the case all around the world ?

All the airlines around the world want pilots to fly max and give the company max productivity ..

And if 380 doesn't make sense then yeah they will change to some other fleet ... But that can happen to any airline rite ?

I can understand if you are from USA or Europe and you get a job back in your home country it makes sense to go back ...

[BigGeordie]

One job for one person sounds pretty good to me. I feel like I'm doing the work of 2 at the moment.

[ExDubai]

Hey guys ,


Isn't that the case all around the world ?

All the airlines around the world want pilots to fly max and give the company max productivity ..
Safety culture is what counts, never forget you have a couple of hundred slf in the back.....

[WB1900]

Are there any info about the future of getting a command in EK. heard a bit but like to filter out the rumours ans seaking some confirmation.

[Macrohard]

I can confirm the numbers quoted here will change numerous times before you achieve a command at EK.
Friend of mine did his in 3 years, I did 4 years, buddy right now just over 5 years, my neighbor who joined at same time as me got his command well after 8 years.
Too many variables to quote a time frame.
There are no guarantees.

[Schnowzer]

I heard rumors of an age limit being added.

[BigGeordie]

There are rumours (and this is a rumour network) that a minimum age of 35 will be introduced for the upgrade. As Macrohard says, when it comes to upgrades there are no guarantees.

[fatbus]

DEC s 380 starting at pay level 20 because of age implementation. Also current Capt s 330 going downgraded RHS 380 with Capt pay.

[flareflyer]

DEC 380?????
Sure about it???

[Pilot_Recruit]

So if you're under 35 and have your command then they downgrade you? None of this makes sense fellas.

[natops]

DEC s 380 starting at pay level 20 because of age implementation. Also current Capt s 330 going downgraded RHS 380 with Capt pay.

Fact or rumour Fatbus?

[PPP316]

So guys, what is the current situation for command upgrade in emirates? Especially for 777 fleet?

[The Outlaw]

Forget asking that question. What you should be saying is "I want to join Emirates because its the best airline in the world, I love living in Dubai, I love the multicultural crew concept, I love to be reported for no reason without knowing why, I love working 100 hours per month, I love sitting in an aircraft for 17 hours at a time, I love sleeping in a box under the cabin floor thats about the size of an average suitcase.

All the upgrade stuff is secondary and may (or may not) happen in 7 to ∞ years depending on who does your recurrent sim checks. Go to EK because you love the management, not the upgrade.

[T54A]

What is the current timeline and process for experienced F/O's joining now to left seat upgrade?

[VThokie2]

What is the current timeline and process for experienced F/O's joining now to left seat upgrade?

The answer is the same as Outlaw described above!

[T54A]

The answer is the same as Outlaw described above!

But it doesn’t answer the question.

[VThokie2]

But it doesn’t answer the question.

Because you will never know…. The snapshot of upgrade times at time of joining has little bearing of what your upgrade time will be. At any given time the economic conditions in some part of the world could produce an unending supply of highly experienced DEC applicants potentially delaying your upgrade for years. Equally likely some operational incident will precipitate a kneejerk change of requirements for command arbitrary adding a decades wait for people that were less than a year away from the command course. Now with all of that I will yet again invite you to reread what Outlaw wrote several years ago because it applies equally today! Best of luck!

[flyTheBigFatLady]

What is the current timeline and process for experienced F/O's joining now to left seat upgrade?

as a local said once:“you are not here for the money, or the joy and pleasure, you are here to be part of the history“

[SOPS]

What is the current timeline and process for experienced F/O's joining now to left seat upgrade?

How long is a piece of string?

[Red_giant]

Around 6-7 years based on a DOJ around 2018.

if you joined today perhaps plan on 10 years worst case scenario…

[AviatoR21]

What about the accelerated command avenue? False promise to lure potential FO’s??

[VThokie2]

What about the accelerated command avenue? False promise to lure potential FO’s??

Always is….. it was also nice in the past when DEC candidates would resign their previous jobs then move their families to Dubai only to find out the DEC course requirements had changed and they were now joining as a First Officer or not joining at all!

[StinkyIndian]

Can someone share the trainers black list?

[Emma Royds]

I will try and put things into perspective. In the space of three years, we have gone from mass redundancies, to now having insufficient FOs with experience to promote on the 380. In turn, this has led to the pending arrival of DECs.

If that doesn’t indicate how futile it is to predict time to command, I don’t know what would.

[flyTheBigFatLady]

I will try and put things into perspective. In the space of three years, we have gone from mass redundancies, to now having insufficient FOs with experience to promote on the 380. In turn, this has led to the pending arrival of DECs.

If that doesn’t indicate how futile it is to predict time to command, I don’t know what would.

the question s why is it that they don’t have enough FO qualified with experience - and the answer is very simple - most of them have not been called back to rejoin.

[ThunderLizard]

What is the current timeline and process for experienced F/O's joining now to left seat upgrade?
Average has been 4 years on both fleets for as long as I can remember

[PositiveRate876]

Average has been 4 years on both fleets for as long as I can remember

Right after the FO's hired 8 years ago.

If you're experienced then apply for DEC and get ahead of the FOs. They'll love to fly with you.

[Matra 4EB]

Right after the FO's hired 8 years ago.

If you're experienced then apply for DEC and get ahead of the FOs. They'll love to fly with you.

You might not need to worry about that possibility. Chances are high, somewhere during your training they will fail you (either because of your lack of CRM, or for not answering a question "sufficiently" that was thrown at you during the approach at 5000 ft after a 13-hour flight). They will then call you to the office, kindly offering you to either return home, or re-start your training in the right hand seat. Your choice!