never fear, ryan air is here

[donpizmeov]

Jungle drums say CPLs with 1500hrs with the Ryans are on the way.

[Monarch Man]

Oh goody, less than 2 years airline flying, and potentially these will be the 2IC's offering useful advice about that time over the South China Sea, fer fecks sake, this is getting ridiculous.

[donpizmeov]

Stories beginning with " at CTC camp" :)

[Monarch Man]

While I agree that more experience is preferable, who do you suggest the airline should hire at a time when the global pilots supply is dwindling?

I would think that 2 years of very intensive jet operations in Europe should produce some acceptable candidates?

Olbie, make the job attractive to RETAIN rather than bleed the experience that is currently racing for the door, but as ever expediency over best practice will win again.
Secondly, look at my name, I used to work in a place that took 250hr cadets aka just like Pikey Air, I can tell you right now that with the type of varied operation and threats that we get exposed too at EK each day, it's another hole in the cheese lining up. You can't put an experienced head on inexperienced shoulders, 1500hrs in a 737/A320 around Europe or anywhere else IS inexperienced, they don't know what they don't know, and "acceptable" is subjective, "acceptable" to whom? AAL? JA? MM? You? The travelling paying public? the underwriters?

[Emma Royds]

1500hrs on a medium jet is not that much different from from the current minimum requirement as it stands (more than 2000hrs on MTOW greater than 20T), when you consider what the company can actually lower the requirements to.

Bear in mind the FCI from almost a year ago which permits ZFT training to be conducted for new entrants with 500 hrs or 100 route sectors on turbo props with a MTOW greater than 10T or with more than 19 seats. This is significantly different from the current requirement of more than 3000hrs on MTOW between 10T and 20T.

I suspect that is where the minimum requirements will be heading in due course.

Plus bear in mind if you do four sectors a day for five days a week then one has accumulated 100 route sectors in just one month!

[nakbin330]

Why doesn't EK employ these youngsters as SOs for a couple of years? I haven't bothered to do any sums but surely this would release a fair number of FOs to the upgrade programme and/or the line?

Yes, we have cadets - as do many other outfits - that slot straight into the RHS but whether or not that's a good idea is a topic all on it's own.

[helen-damnation]

nakbin330

Beat me to it. SO's get to see the operation and the big picture from the cm3 seat, learn the operation and get "relevant" experience.

[Old King Coal]

In my experience (+31 years in the business, and until quite recently +7 years in FZ.. though I've since resigned and departed the sandpit = happy days!), I've operated to more than my fair share of challenging places (**** holes) around the planet.

During my stint within FZ, I regularly had the company of some very (read that as 'very!!!') inexperienced F/O's in the RHS (with some, but not all, being local UAE 'Cadet Pilots') and it'd be fair to say that all were as keen as mustard to learn and therein they rapidly developed & excelled, i.e. when under the auspices of good instruction.

That said, imho, the ones to watch out for were the supposedly experienced F/O's, and from whom I've more than once had to take control.

So, imho, it's not about total hours.

What is about is sectors; the operating environment in which those sectors were attained; their ability to 'adapt'; their ability & attitude to learn.

It's also very much about the ability & knowledge of their instructors !

Therein my biggest complaint would be that far, far, too many so called 'instructors' (typically "yes!" men getting promoted to training positions) seemingly have a fine grasp of the non-essentials (e.g. they're massively wrapped-up in the minutiae of the SOP's) but haven't a f'ing clue (or are themselves unable to demonstrate, let alone teach) how to land a Public Transport jet in +35kt crosswind, and veritably the **** that some of them come out with (and teach, to impressionable F/O's) simply beggars belief... for some of them I'm sure it'd be acceptable to fly into a f'ing mountain, just so long as you were following SOP to the letter and / or that it was 'legal' (I can feel an attack of Tourette's Syndrome coming on).

Fwiw, I'm now HoT at my new lot and the regime I'm implementing here is all about flying the aeroplane first & foremost along with (and I can almost hear my ME counterparts wincing at the suggestion) those old chestnuts called common sense & 'airmanship' ! :)

[dhc8d]

In my humble opinion it depends on the quality of the 1500hrs
Some have 1500hrs of real Flying experience.
Some it's 1500hrs of presence on the RHS.

[bringbackthe80s]

It's the quality of person you get (at selection that is), all the rest comes after.
Hours hours hours, they mean nothing if one is unable to learn quickly and adapt to the enviroment. There are complex fast jet military pilots converting on type with 180 hours total. It' selection and good training. All the rest is words.

[Xiamen]

Didn't you need 4000 hrs jet time to apply for EK some years ago?
Since that, they have dropped the requirements several times, and every time people step up and defend the quality of less experienced pilots.
You can't blame the current shortage of pilots. EK used to be top pick. They would still get quality pilots if that was still the case. It's not.
I've got nothing against FR pilots. Just give them a DME, and they will know exactly when to set the flaps and lower the gear. That is airmanship at the highest level.
It takes about two months of flying to get them to start thinking again.

[Aeolus2000BC]

From the time Finch was 8 years old, his dream was to become a pilot when he grew up. That dream came true, when as a 19-year-old draftee, he was assigned to pilot training at Maxwell Field in Decatur, Ala., then sent to Freeman Field, Seymour, Ind., for advanced training. Finch's plane was the B-17 bomber.

He recalls his mother pinning on his wings and second lieutenant bars at flight school graduation in August 1944. His father and his girlfriend, Kathryn Carter, were there, too.

"It was one of my most memorable and proudest moments," Finch said.

B-17 bombers were a vital part of the United States' WWII offense in Europe, and Finch was assigned to the 815th Squadron of the 483rd Bomb Group, 15th Air Force.

At 20, he became one of the youngest men to fly combat in a B-17. The four-engine bomber was equipped with six defensive gun locations and was called the "Flying Fortress." Group formations of the plane provided its best defense. Planes flew in tight formation to allow the guns of multiple planes to be brought to bear on approaching enemy fighters.

With a crew of eight, Finch had the job of air commander. After the first encounter with enemy fire, "Flying didn't seem as much fun," Finch confessed, nor was the near mid-air collision with another plane. But his whole crew survived the war and came home safe, and for that he says he is thankful.

"Even as a young boy, I never approved of war, but I know it's a necessary evil. War is hell," he said. "I was lucky. I got drafted near the end of the war, lived through it, and celebrated the end on V-E Day." Finch said. He and his crew were in Foggia, Italy, on that historic day, May 8, 1945.

Finch was discharged at the age of 22 in October 1946 with the rank of captain. During his short military career he earned the Air Medal, American Theatre Ribbon, European-African-Middle East Theatre Ribbon with two bronze battle stars, Occupation Ribbon with two service bars, and a Victory Medal.

[kingpost]

Noted. But Finch had to be selected into the programme, he didn't go and buy a rating to get employed into what was once a very selective industry.

[helen-damnation]

And without in any way intending to disrespect any of those who put themselves on the line, there was an expected attrition rate.
Not something that would be acceptable today!

[Bloated Stomach]

1500 multipilot hours are more than enough to settle into Emirates. If the flying was raw data with auto throttle and flight directors off, then I'd agree with you all.

[nowind]

Possibly feeding the troll but, are those pilots immune to failures and situations requiring those skills?

[anson harris]

My experience tells me that there are more than enough Captains who are scared of their own shadows, enough to be mentally crippled when it comes to making any kind of decision because they can't reach HQ on the sat phone or because OMA or the FCOM doesn't cover it - I've seen it enough occasions to know it's not a one off. So tell me, what's the threat again? Largely dedicated guys and girls from Ryanair with buckets of enthusiasm and sharpness, who are keen to learn? I don't think so.

[glofish]

My experience tells me that there are more than enough Captains who are scared of their own shadows, enough to be mentally crippled when it comes to making any kind of decision because they can't reach HQ on the sat phone or because OMA or the FCOM doesn't cover it

So true. But the EK solution to it is to give them a star as fast as possible. Then they are relieved of the LHS and become extremely expert backseat drivers on the jumpy and spread their sublime wisdom.

So tell me, what's the threat again? Largely dedicated guys and girls from Ryanair with buckets of enthusiasm and sharpness, who are keen to learn?

The TP or Ryanair astronauts have never been the problem. It has always been the reduction of their training, their too rapid deployment and exposure to the pampers trainer fraction that is dangerous.

I know this is exagerated and sarcastic, but it reflects some truth ...... :ugh:

[propaganda]

Most European legacy airlines have taken cadets and low houred DEPs into the RHS of narrow - bodied jets for years. Although, the training departments are well geared up for this level of experience. Longhaul/ wide-bodied flying to the more remote parts of the World will be a challenge for any Junior F/O, particularly if the unthinkable happens and there is an incapacitation in the LHS.
The risks are heightened if the stars align and the whole crew is inexperienced - crew pairing restrictions or not.

[donpizmeov]

I think history will prove they will be better than what comes next.

[donpizmeov]

Glofish,

I think the real problem is that EK hires these guys, allows them to resign from a job/career and move family to Dubai. And then, when they discover they don't make the grade, remove them from course and terminate the employment. Leaving them out of work and out of pocket for the move.
This never use to happen. But with the new recruitment process how many times has this happened in this year alone?
And yes these guys have been given lots of extra training etc.
I can't see the pampers trainers being a problem. They should get on well, taking pictures of meal trays together and posting on their favourite social media sites. It will all be great crack.

[anson harris]

Don, are you suggesting that there is a problem with ex-Ryanair guys not making the grade?

[Flyingishere]

Glofish,

I think the real problem is that EK hires these guys, allows them to resign from a job/career and move family to Dubai. And then, when they discover they don't make the grade, remove them from course and terminate the employment. Leaving them out of work and out of pocket for the move.
This never use to happen. But with the new recruitment process how many times has this happened in this year alone?
And yes these guys have been given lots of extra training etc.
I can't see the pampers trainers being a problem. They should get on well, taking pictures of meal trays together and posting on their favourite social media sites. It will all be great crack.

Interesting... I joined not too long ago and during the assessments around mine and including mine the only people who passed were ex Ryanair. In addition the lovely Canadian jumpy recruitment officer mentioned that Ryanair pilots were still among the best to apply due to their experience with a wide range of SOPS, flying into dodgy places with nothing more then a NDB and the fact they have a very good training department...

[donpizmeov]

Have flown with fellas from many companies that say the same thing. Did he also say command in 4 years, and you get all your leave?
Why don't you email him and ask if the number of trainees terminated from course has increased this year.