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Bullseye Check
30th Jun 2002, 21:04
Could someone please explain why an RAF Fighter Controllers qualifications are not recognised in the civilian sector. This can be rather annoying as we all operate in the same bit of sky with the same rules. It becomes paticurly diificult when we look to leave the airforce and join the well paid group at swanwick as we have to go through the full application process!!!

foo fighting
30th Jun 2002, 22:04
"...same bit of sky with the same rules..."

May I quote you on the 1261 the next time I arrange a dog fight in the hold in the TMA ?

if you do apply - you may find somethings are very different than you imagine - good luck

Aunt Rimmer
30th Jun 2002, 22:59
Yeah right !

Sorry Bullseye but it really ain't the same, and I really don't think we play to the same rules. Like when the power went down at ScACC on Fri, Buchan were asked to avoid all civil traffic. First thing I say when the radar came back is 'avoiding action' against 4xF3s wearing Buchan squawks doing 2 on 2 across the advisory routes north of Glasgow heading at my commercial traffic, same level 10 miles and closing.

For RAF ATCOs I think shorter courses are in order (a la Dundridge), but no disrespect, FCs don't do ADC or radar circuits and speed control.

BDiONU
1st Jul 2002, 06:52
Fighter Control qualifications are not recognised for the same reasons as RAF ATC Controller qualifications are not recognised.

Who knows why. Those cynics amongst you might suggest that its because if they were and short conversion courses were available to ex-mil there'd be such a stampede to leave the RAF that the mil ATC service would grind to a halt.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR
1st Jul 2002, 07:05
Things ARE different in civvy street. One small example, which has always amazed me, is how Northolt can legally use 500 ft vertical separation between two civil a/c in the London Control Zone. If I, as thw civil controlling authority, try that in exactly the same piece of airspace I get suspended and investigated!

Chilli Monster
1st Jul 2002, 09:02
Bullseye Check

Sorry mate - but the only similarity between your job and ours is you look at a radar tube - plain and simple.

You will never have worked in a tower, you will never have worked joint IFR and VFR traffic in a terminal environment. You will never have used headings to acheive separation if you were working an airways sector, funnelling traffic down the airway instead of having a big open patch of sky to play in. You will never have controlled traffic when your radar goes down and reverted to procedural techniques. Your phraseology is totally different.

Shall I go on? (And I spent 18 months working next to you guys in the days of Saxa Vord / Shetland Radar - so I know what I'm talking about ;))

So - you think it's unfair that you have to go through the full selection? Best you think again :D

CM

AREA52
1st Jul 2002, 10:26
Dear BC

Having worked against London Mil and certain other mil outfits for a few years, I have to agree that the culture and MOP's within the mil are completely different to the civil way of operating.

I am not saying that all mil controllers are not up to scratch, and the one's who aren't may not receive sufficient training or experience prior to being let loose. This is a known problem, primarily caused by the frequent movement of staff from one post to another I believe.

LJAO controllers on the other hand, seem to stay in post for longer and have a better understanding of the civil system through working alongside ourselves. This can only work in their favour if they wish to switch.

All in all, if you are up to the job, you should have no great fear of applying through the normal channels. Although, sometimes you do wonder how certain people slip through the net into the college, whilst more capable people fail. Typical NATS:rolleyes:

At the end of the day, you try to put them together, whilst we try to keep them apart, and occasionally we meet in the middle unfortunately :confused:

Anyway, good luck if you apply;)

Avoiding Action
1st Jul 2002, 17:57
BC,

1. The job is different. You couldn't control easily, or safely, in the main N-S airways complex without some considerable re-training. Console yourself that many civil ATCOs wouldn't have a hope of doing what we do (oops, given myself away there!) without a similar, large, amount of training.

2. However, I believe our abilities, workrate, speed of thought and multi-tasking skills would place us higher in ATC training than an ab-initio student. It's unfortunate that this isn't recognised in any shape or form.

3. As Take3Call5 said, it's all about retention. I don't know about you, but if my ticket was easily transferable to the civil side, do you think I'd still be doing this job for this salary? I think not.

BC - just remember you're doing things that many civvies will never come close to doing ( and I don't mean airproxes!)

To all you civvies, before you think I'm snobbish, I really envy your salary:D :D :D

HEATHROW DIRECTOR
1st Jul 2002, 18:13
It's not just ex-RAF controllers who have to sit the civil exams. I worked abroad under an ICAO licence for several years, having been trained in the UK. However, before I could operate here I had to sit the whole UK licence exam bit. It caused me no concern and I was very pleased to do it, so why should it worry RAF types? They don't bung out UK civil ATC licences with cornflakes!

takefive
1st Jul 2002, 18:33
As one who has made the move from IC to civvy I can say with some authority that you do need to do the whole training. You'd be amazed how different civvy work is.
Would you expect a civvy to do successful PI's? Apart from the unintentional ones!
Take the plunge it's worth it

stopbar
1st Jul 2002, 19:19
BC

I was also mil but on the ATCO side also a FISO none of which counted for much other than a two week dispensation to do some of the book work from home. I approached the training with an open mind, knowing it would be difficult and different. I was not disapointed!!! It was much more difficult than I had imagined as the empathsis is very different from mil rules although the basics are the same. There has been much talk in recent years of some sort of credit for mil work but don't hold your breath, you'll be drawing your pension (old age not military) by the time it happens primarily because the mil would lose all their controllers. My advice would be get sponsered or taken on by NATS, I didn't and it cost £20K but was worth every penny and I don't regret a minute, so if your keen get out there and do it. As an aside it you may find it useful to get a FISO licence and validate it as it would give you some idea of visual control room work, although not phraseolgy. Good luck.:) :)

Aunt Rimmer
1st Jul 2002, 22:04
BC

I too made the leap from RAF ATCO to civvie a while back, and while the Aerodrome/Approach side of things is quite similar, the Area side is another world entirely - learning to use strips for conflict prediction/resolution will not come easy to you, or anyone, but it can be done. FC/ATC rules are pretty different, but at least you should have experience speaking on the RT - "SHT7Y bingo"

I know a couple of former FCs who are valid Approach or have successfully passed the Area course, so it can be done.

Verdict - get out if you can and go for it. But don't blag about how much better it was in the RAF and "we did it this way" ..etc...etc...
;)

Better if all mil stuff was privatised then you get a common licence and we get more union members and more solidarity. But it'll never happen cos' like you say they can screw mil ATCOs, pay them peanuts and use them as strike-busters.

professor yaffle
1st Jul 2002, 23:52
bc
how about looking at it from the flip side? would you feel that a civvie could just walk in to your ops room and not require to do any sim and bookwork retraining prior to plugging in.??
don't think so.

prof

The Sad ATCO
2nd Jul 2002, 21:16
BC,

As another former mil ATCO who is now on the civvy side of things, I am rather amazed by your assertion that you use 'the same rules'! During my military ATC career I could never fathom what rules, if any at all, my FC chums were using. :D

All joking aside, handing back my blue jumper was the best thing I ever did. I would strongly recommend having a go at applying for NATS training. You start again at the bottom but you need to as it is very different (personal experience confirmed that!). If they ever let you out of that hole into the daylight you should come and have a look!

Good luck with whatever you do.

Sad

roger
2nd Jul 2002, 21:49
B C ,
come and visit NERC, see how similar it is, then post again?

roger(7 years trade group 9, 6 years atco 2)

FWA NATCA
3rd Jul 2002, 17:33
Bullseye,

In the USA, military controllers struggle alittle with the difference in procedures, this depends on what type of facility they were rated in. Many of our military controllers only have GCA or tower experience, but the important thing is that they have experience talking to and seperating airplanes.


Mike

Aunt Rimmer
3rd Jul 2002, 20:02
SAD ATCO - (pre-web registered) :cool:

I recall an incident involving Neatishead who had (allegedly) agreed to stop off at a lower level against ScATCC(Mil) traffic.

After the level had been bust, the conversation went something like ....

<Neat> "Neatishead"
<ScMil> "Scottish Mil, requesting co-ordination"
<Neat> "Go ahead"
<ScMil> "Next time you do that, I'm going to jump in the car, drive down the A1, and PUNCH YOUR ****ING LIGHTS OUT - OK?"
<Neat> "............................co-ordination agreed" <click>

:D

Bye bye
Auntie

TAD 069
5th Jul 2002, 23:23
Thanks for that really constructive comment, Auntie. I'm sure we can all fling mud if we try.

The Sad ATCO
6th Jul 2002, 21:18
Rimmer,

Glad to see that you have been checking my profile. Are you still interfering with that poor cat? :eek:

I make my claim as the most accomplished lurker on this BB. Since I registered in 1969 I have only made 7 posts. This is so low that I can't even get a reading on the average posts rating!

At least you know that any comment that I do make has been very well considered over an average period of about four and a half years :D . I hope that this adds weight to my learned opinion.

Must return to lurking. Speak to you all in 52 months.

Sad

P.S. Rimmer, You must be nicer to the FCs. How about an 'Adopt-a-Scopie' scheme where we can help them see the error of their ways? I want to do my bit for care in the community! :D

2 six 4
8th Jul 2002, 10:15
Could someone please explain why an RAF Fighter Controllers qualifications are not recognised in the civilian sector.

Just look at alpha control's last couple of threads....... if you need any more explanation don't bother applying.

Avoiding Action
8th Jul 2002, 18:30
Alpha control is a lose cannon, squawking 7000 and causing mayhem. Please ignore.:rolleyes:

AA

mysteryman
8th Jul 2002, 19:22
Hi all

I look forward to seeing ANY former RAF controllers

IF you can do the course
you can have the job

simple as that

arses on seats
ever heard of that one?

MM

roger
8th Jul 2002, 19:32
follow on from MM
scope dopes and assistants that goes for you too...see you soon
roger

Chilli Monster
8th Jul 2002, 19:49
Bullseye / Moderators

Any chance of starting a Poll on this thread - how many UK ATCO's are ex-military and which groups do they come from? Options I'm thinking of are:

ATCO's
Assistants
Fighter Controllers
ASOP's

Be interesting to know I'm sure.

CM

roger
8th Jul 2002, 21:28
CM
that's the one ASOP, couldn't remember the official name hence scope dope...
roger