MD 600N

[givdrvr]

Saw of few of these for sale, they seem very underpriced relative to the rest of the rotary market and I have no type specific knowledge. What am I missing? Is it a maint hog or something etc?
Thanks!

[Bell_ringer]

Same problem over here. The Notar is not well liked..

[Flying Bull]

Well,
MD had some problems with spareparts ...
I know that some operators of MD helicopters joined together to exchange parts from helicopters on the ground to keep the rest of their fleets flying.
Don´t know, wether the situation has improved so...

[Ascend Charlie]

Pax in rear cabin get seasick from the yawing/wallowing motion

[md 600 driver]

Pax in rear cabin get seasick from the yawing/wallowing motion

That's a new one I've never heard that before
Neither has any of my passengers
What a load of tosh

[catseye]

Md 600 driver.
Does your 600 have YSAS/stab augmentation or whatever MD call it. The machine that was in Oz didn't and the punters in the back did get sick. :E

[ricksheli]

That's a new one I've never heard that before
Neither has any of my passengers
What a load of tosh

Totally agree been using mine for last 4 years on tourist oops, flown thousands of passengers and can only remember 2 being sick

[ricksheli]

Totally agree been using mine for last 4 years on tourist oops, flow thousands of passengers and can only remember 2 being sick

No ysas - you get used to it and a pilot with any ability can fly them smoothly

[newfieboy]

Never flown 600, but got a couple thou hrs flying 520,s 15 odd years ago on utility work. Great longline machine, moved lots of drills and seismic. All ones I flew had YSAS but it never worked, so breaker pulled and placarded. You learnt to fly really smooth without it. Lots of fun but preferred the E or D myself. oh well back to flying the Bells and Eurocopter/Airbus whatever they call it these days.

[md 600 driver]

Md 600 driver.
Does your 600 have YSAS/stab augmentation or whatever MD call it. The machine that was in Oz didn't and the punters in the back did get sick. :E

I bought mine without YSAS and had
YSAS Retrofitted after a year but that wasn't for passengers getting ill

[VegasHeloPyl8]

First I would like to say I am a big fan of the MD600N...took a ride (as a passenger) in one a few years back when I was regulated to piloting in the Robinson arena.


That being said....Looking at the production list at AeroBoek MD Helicopters NOTAR Production (http://www.aeroboek.nl/ab-044.htm) it lists 83 airframes produced for this model. According to the listings 21 of them NOT including the preproduction airframe (which was not part of the said 83) have crashed and thusly been written off. That's a full one third of the total! Many varying reasons for those accidents so its up to you to form your own opinion.


Still a fan and would eagerly step forward at a chance to pilot one

[Palma]

Vegas.
Me thinks it's 25% but still an alarming statistic. No common thread? (No pun intended ;-)

[VegasHeloPyl8]

Palma I stand corrected more like 25% as you stated

[md 600 driver]

Maybe you should only read data from official sources that are correct

Just because there was incident it does not mean that the aircraft isn't flying anymore

I for one would be happier flying in a 600 than a 22 ,44 ,66

[500 Fan]

How does it perform in autorotation? The 500 series is sporty in autorotation, as I understand it and perhaps the 600N is even more so.

It is flying with the optimum blade for the 500, namely the 530F blade but maybe it needs an even longer blade. That might have required a blade of a different chord and an increase in main rotor shaft height to ensure clearance over the tailboom. The even longer blade envisioned for the 520L/530K proposal proved not to have the desired performance. The 530F blade is the optimum for the 500 series but maybe not for the larger 600N airframe.

500 Fan.

[md 600 driver]

500
Not sure which blade comes with it
They were already on the heli but also remember there are 6 not 5 or 4
And yes a bit sporty on autos but not the worst heli for autos

[SuperF]

the number of helis crashed, compared to produced, is not a great statistic, as it doesn't tell what they were doing, or where they were doing it.

look at 214's and 214ST's. most of them crashed through abuse, or pilot error, or just the fact of where they were flying, that a minor problem meant that the machine was totalled. Kmax is the same, less than half remaining in the air.... all still pretty good machines.

[VegasHeloPyl8]

"Maybe you should only read data from official sources that are correct"


NOT trying to start a fight....But some my or may not be worth the cost of repair...tried to find official accident reports...some of the airframes do not warrant the shipping and repair cost since accident occurred in a remote region....some of the links bring one to the NTSB report for said accident.


http://www.aeroboek.nl/600/NTSB_RN-001_N600RN.pdf Airframe 001


http://www.aeroboek.nl/600/NTSB_RN-004_N9204D.pdf Airframe 004


http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001212X20685&ntsbno=MIA00FA102&akey=1 Airframe 008


http://www.aeroboek.nl/600/TSBCA_A06W0041.pdf Airframe 011


Picture Airframe 012, to be fair, cannot find that this airframe is flying again


http://www.aeroboek.nl/600/RN-012_UPMD004_1C.png


Airframe 016, not know if this airframe is flying also
http://www.aeroboek.nl/600/UP-MD001-crash.jpg


http://www.ntsb.gov/about/employment/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20120808X44331&ntsbno=ANC12FA084&akey=1 Airframe 17




Air frame 18..unknown disposition of airframe
http://www.aeroboek.nl/600/RN-018_SEJKJ_3C.png




Airframe 20..write off
http://www.aeroboek.nl/600/RN020_XCAAF_1C.jpg


Airframe 024 ....destroyed during white out conditions at Toba Valley, British Columbia, Canada March 2009


Airframe 26 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422ee0140f0b6134200019b/dft_avsafety_pdf_501816.pdf
registration removed and currently in storage


Airframe 35 ....Cannot get details about the airframe currentlyhttp://www.aeroboek.nl/600/RN-035_N606BP_1C.png


Airframe 37 http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20151208X01729&key=1 more to follow


Airframe 48 Accident of MD-600 in Kazakhstan, total loss


Airframe 49 Russia, total loss


Airframe 50, was auctioned off at salvage


Airframe 54, I do not read nor write French, ...http://www.aeroboek.nl/600/RN054_BEA_04062004.pdf


Airframe 55, 28 December 2010 crash in Germany, D-HHWR total loss


Airframe 57, crash landed near Fountain Hills, Arizona. cabin used in James Bond 007 movie, Die another day


Additionally cannot find any info on Airframes 2, 27, 38, and 65


Airframe 63, crash near the Ataturk stadium in Antalya, Turkey. 19 July 2006 total loss


Airframe 71, destroyed by fire after emergency landing airframe W/O


Airframe 78, crash landed near Nimertek village, Nawraparha,
Narayanganj, Bangladesh...Write off
http://www.aeroboek.nl/600/RN078-2.jpg

[VegasHeloPyl8]

Maybe you should only read data from official sources that are correct

Just because there was incident it does not mean that the aircraft isn't flying anymore

I for one would be happier flying in a 600 than a 22 ,44 ,66

Totally agree with you about the robinsons

[Hot and Hi]

Airframe 78, crash landed near Nimertek village, Nawraparha,
Narayanganj, Bangladesh...Write off
http://www.aeroboek.nl/600/RN078-2.jpgMost of your pictures, and in particular the last one, show the proverbial crashworthiness of the egg-shaped cabin. Remarkable!

[Self loading bear]

"

Airframe 54, I do not read nor write French, ...http://www.aeroboek.nl/600/RN054_BEA_04062004.pdf


"Helicoptre est detruit"

Helicopter is destroyed

Santé SLB

[Hot and Hi]

Quote:
Originally Posted by VegasHeloPyl8 View Post
"Airframe 54, I do not read nor write French, ...http://www.aeroboek.nl/600/RN054_BEA_04062004.pdf

"Helicoptre est detruit"

Helicopter is destroyed

Santé SLB

OK, well spotted. But there may be something else in this accident report. Something is puzzling me. In many MD600 accidents we see evidence of tail boom strikes. This was also the case for Airframe #54.

Isn’t the MD meant to be one of the fastest, most maneuverable, precise and safest (as long as the donk is running) helicopters? Or is this privilege reserved to the 500. Despite the 500 and 600 looking so similar, are they possibly two very different kind of aircraft? And is the difference maybe beyond the obvious (NOTAR vs conventional TR) and has to do with their very different proportions?

Here we go on lambasting 2-bladed teetering head choppers as being inherently prone to catastrophic mast bumping if flown ham-fistedly, or in conditions of strong turbulence. On the other side, forum members credibly report having flown the 2-bladed JetRanger for thousands of hours in often extreme turbulence, without even the slightest on-set of mast bumping.

Only to find that the 6-bladed, fully articulated MD-600 carries a safety warning in its Rotorcraft Flight Manual similar to the one we have for Robisons (almost identical wording to R44 Safety Notice SN-10). Here is the wording from the MD flight manual:

Normal Procedures Section 4-9: “Rotor ‘blowback": …condition is exacerbated by … low rotor RPM, high collective angle pitch setting which causes blade stall over a large portion of the main rotor disk. If the resulting blowback is excessive, the main rotor may contact the tail boom.

While the MD600 safety note is uttered in the context to running landings, the same apparently can easily happen in mid-air, under low G conditions, as was found it to be the case at least in this accident. I translate from the French accident report:

2.1 Simulated engine failure at cruise speed

At the time of the accident, the helicopter was flying at a ground speed of close to 140 KTS. At least 4 of the 6 rotor blades deeply cut into the tail boom. This damage is indicative of rather abrupt control movements. It also appears that [at the time of the tail boom strike] the rotor blades were not subjected to high centrifugal forces, in other words, there is indication of reduced rotor RPM. While such loss of rotor RPM could have been caused by loss of engine power or failure of the override clutch, no pre-existing mechanical problem was found.

The mishap flight can be classified as advanced instruction towards type rating, combined with a private cross-country flight. The instructor had 10,000 HRS on all types of Airbus helicopters incl twins, and on Robinsons, but was himself type-rated on the MD600 only 30 days before the mishap flight. He only had 32 HRS on-type (and had never flown the MD500).

The owner-student had around 1,000 HRS TTRW on R44 and EC120. The mishap flight was part of his type-rating on the MD600. The report found that the instructor tried to challenge (well, the actual word in the BEA accident report is “entertain”) the student with a surprise simulated engine failure at fast cruise and 800’ AGL.

Turbulent conditions [which according to the BEA report may have prevailed at the time of the incident] and/or the surprise element have probably triggered the incorrect response by the student pilot. The need to at the same time turn into the wind [in preparation for an autorotation landing] would have further increased the student pilot’s workload.

3.2 Accident cause

In all probability, the inappropriate control inputs of the student-pilot have caused an in-flight break-up of the tail boom, caused by the main rotor striking the tail boom.

“1.18.1 Simulated engine failures

“Entering autorotation at cruise speed is complicated. The pilot has to make small but precise control inputs to reduce speed to Vy. Dumping the collective can cause a low G condition (between “low positive G”, up to “negative G”), which, together with large and abrupt cyclic AFT movement, can cause the rotor plane to come dangerously close to the tail boom.

1.12.5 Damage history

“The mishap aircraft had been involved in an incident [3 years before this accident]. [Another] pilot at the time lost yaw control close to the ground, and the main rotor cut through the composite structure of the tail boom in almost its entire width.

1.12.6 Other MD600N accidents linked to tail boom strike

“Between 1996 and 2004, thirteen accidents of the MD600N involving tail boom strikes were reported. 11 of those happened on the ground, of in the course of a hard landing. One tail boom strike happened in flight during the certification test flying program, and another in-flight tail boom strike occurred while flying outside the flight envelope.

So what makes the MD600 so different from the MD500? Neither the 500D nor the 500E Rotorcraft Flight Manual includes the above quote rotor blowback / tail boom strike warnings found both in the MD600 and in the Robinson manuals. (I do not have a 520N flight manual to check there.)

Despite the optical similarity, the MD600 is considerably heavier (40% higher empty weight compared to 500E). The rotor clearance between the rotor disc and the tail boom is maybe 10 cm less. I should think, equally importantly, both cabin and tail boom are much longer, resulting in the FWD and AFT masses of the airframe to be further away from the centre than in the MD500.

This in my books would result in a situation where the (already higher) mass of the MD600 acts upon a longer lever arm, generating larger inertia resisting the fuselage to follow the FWD/AFT movement of the rotor disk.

[[email protected]]

If you lower the lever in pretty much any helicopter, the disc will flap forward and the nose will drop - if you then haul back on the cyclic you are going to have the disc coming back while the tail is still going up. If your control margins are reduced (C of G) and your control power is low (type of rotor head) it is not a surprise that the rotors might meet the tail.

Perhaps the 600 is more susceptible than other helos, hence the RFM text but high speed cruise entry to auto does require more careful handling and those pilots used to 'standard' 90 knot entries may well be surprised at the aircraft response to their normal control inputs.

[Hughes500]

Cant speak for the 600 as I have only flown one once. The 500 in high speed flight auto rotates like a dream in fact you have to use a different technique than that you are normally taught.
Remember this is high speed flight ( above 100kts ) Say one is cruising at around 120 to 130 kts. If you close the throttle the first reaction should be to haul the cylic back leaving the collective lever where it is. The effect will be initially for the aircraft to climb at about 500 ft a min for about 5 to 10 seconds. You are aiming to get the speed back to 80 kts ( range speed) If you put lever down first the nose will drop severely causing one to yank the lever back up to protect Nr.
Once you are at 80 its then control the speed with the collective i.e. by lowering it slowly the nose will drop which means you can apply rear cyclic which increases Nr and gets the speed back to 60 kts which is best auto speed.
If you bottom lever at 130 its you will have ac on its nose with about 40 to 60 degrees pitch down. Effect is then to haul back cyclic which very very rapidly increases Nr so you have to rapidly bring lever back up.
Now if you have not been taught this technique then a 600 which I am sure flies in a similar manner ( but with higher ROD ) but faster then a 500 I can see why you would chop you boom off by bottoming lever with a rapid rear cyclic to stop massive nose drop !

[[email protected]]

Hughes 500 - your description of the high speed cruise technique for auto is OK for a practice one where you react immediately so the Nr has little time to decay - in the real case you will need to lower the lever a bit because you will be using the strong flare effect to recover the Nr rather than zoom climb.

We used to teach this type of technique on the Gazelle at low level (100') at 120 kts and you could show a climb of 2-300' if you reacted quickly but that was a false scenario with no delay between closing the throttle and applying aft cyclic.

Try doing it with a 1 - 2 sec delay between throttle chop and reaction - you won't be getting 500'/min RoC but you do recover Nr and delay the onset of the descent giving you the all important time to make a plan.

The other area you have to be careful is when the flare effect is waning and you have a nose-high attitude; you need to select a speed stable attitude for your best auto speed but you must push the nose forward gently - any rapid pitch nose down will decay the Nr you have worked so hard to recover.

[Hughes500]

Crab

Unlike a 341 the NR in a 500 is very very lively. You can use the technique I describe even counting to 2 before rear cyclic !
The 500 when you drop the lever seems to drop its nose way way more than any of the other types I fly. So you are able to use the lever as speed decays i.e. slowly putting it down drops the nose alarmingly which means you flare back to maintain attitude and speed which also obviously helps the rrpm stay in the green. I hear what you are saying but the 500 seems to autorotate like nothing else ( well having done an EOL in a Scout with 3200 fpm ROD Ii might take that back )
Not sure on the 600 but auto Vne in a 500 is 130 kts, a 600 will easily get to 135 / 140 kts. So if they were doing an auto from this speed I can see why they hit the tailboom especially with an inexperienced instructor !

[[email protected]]

Hughes 500 - roger that :ok:

[500 Fan]

Crab

NR in a 500 is very very lively.


NASA and MDHC did a quiet rotorcraft test programme in the late 1980's in a 500E. Part of the test programme required that they fly at 75 per cent rotor RPM. To release the aircraft for that test, the test pilot had to do a few autos starting at 75%. Not sure they held the collective for 2 seconds before lowering it! Maybe that was dependent on the entry speed. I hope the test pilot got a bonus payment for that job!:ok:


500 Fan.

[RVDT]

BITD!

The then Hughes demo party trick was ~120 knots at about 6 ft. Roll the throttle, zoom climb as described here previously, roll left when down to about 60 knots, haul it around in a descending turn and flare to touch down back where you started!! :D

Remembering that it all started from here - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/McCulloch_J-2_Aero_Super_Gyroplane_-_GPN-2000-001904.jpg/300px-McCulloch_J-2_Aero_Super_Gyroplane_-_GPN-2000-001904.jpg

And the basic blade hasn't changed much over the years.

All they have done is make it a bit longer and add a few more so there are limits as to what can be achieved.

Chan Morse at Prescott AZ ( I think) ~ 5000'.

As the retreating blade stalls at low Nr and conveniently drops into the tailboom.

3O0QfngEeAE

FYI I was pilot/mechanic on the second MD600N in service, the first went to South Africa, and before anyone in the U.S. operated them. Talk about being a guinea pig!!

We did all the delightful things and went through all the initial teething problems like rebuild the instrument panel because the original engine instrumentation guys went out of business, FADEC EMI testing, replaced the undercarriage with upgraded items, overrunning clutch mods, fan shroud replacement, FADEC sockets the wrong size, tailboom attach fitting mods, removal of the thruster cap to improve flight characteristics, MGB oil pressure switch mods, swashplate offset mod, cyclic stick mod, cyclic electrical connector mods, fuel system mods and its pitfalls, and on and on.......................

The thing is still flying in Venezuela somewhere I think.

Although it was nearly 20 year ago I can't think of anything it did really well.

Just goes to prove that unfortunately you still can't polish a turd.

For perspective I can compare it to about 12 other types I have flown.

[[email protected]]

Cracking video RVDT - it looks like the pilot might have tried a bit of aerodynamic braking on the slippery runway to get the blade to hit!

There really isn't much clearance on those things is there?

[500guy]

The then Hughes demo party trick was ~120 knots at about 6 ft. Roll the throttle, zoom climb as described here previously, roll left when down to about 60 knots, haul it around in a descending turn and flare to touch down back where you started!! :D


Wow, 6' huh. I believe it.

I have done these form 120knots about 200' (180 touchdown autos back to the spot where the throttle was chopped, liked others said, you can get a 500' climb for almost 10 seconds, climb up to 350 or so' while doing a 180' turn. As Hughes 500 said, you leave the collective where its at until you get to the desired airspeed. A good 5-7 seconds If I remember correctly.

[Hughes500]

Anyone tell me why you can't do a right hand climbing turn at less than 60 its in a 600 ?

[ricksheli]

Anyone tell me why you can't do a right hand climbing turn at less than 60 its in a 600 ?

You can - just keep it in balance

[vass son]

My father, a private pilot owned about eight 600N's they were great AC. Sportiness of the 500/520 range with the capability to carry more passengers. You should speak to Simon Oliphant at Eastern Atlantic, if he can't help you know one can!!

[as350nut]

Just following this thread and note that a couple of 600's have entered Australia recently, SO, I am thinking would a 600 be a viable machine to own OR my financial ruin. Having owned 6 Eurocopters all with turbomecas I have a number of orifices that have yet to heal correctly. So the thought of no 12 yrs no 15 yr engine oh and not having to deal with turbomeca appeals. So does 130 kts, plenty of room FADEC and a neat looking aircraft, make sense. With a new one at 1.9m usd I can see why they have struggled to sell but a (relatively) low time example can now be found with a few yrs on it for 700k, + or -. Doesn't this change the equation? I could put one of these in the hangar and do 100 hrs a year for the next 10 yrs till they box me up. I can't see it biting nearly as hard. Not really worried about the auto capability as I haven't had an auto in anger in the last 35 yrs flying and if I did and it went bad so what; better than dying of cancer. Considering I also have had a half dozen R44's I don't see the risk comparison.

[md 600 driver]

vass son
are you peters son i bought 600 pv when he got 600hv
steve

[catseye]

350 nut,
the only criticism of the previous resident 600 was the stability issue. This was acknowledged by the guy operating it and the agent at that time. Worked with it on fires around SYD

I thought it would be a good run for the money against the squirrels other than b3 for fires etc Prob not good for tourist stuff when compared with squirrel. :ok:

for picture search vh-ath on google.

[as350nut]

catseye

Is that the one that was in Brisbane and operated by Eddie Groves when he was at his peak? About 2004 I think from memory
Hawks operate one (of two) now as well

[catseye]

350 nut,
don't know of it in BNE but was operating with National helicopters whilst owned by Rene Rivikin. Was working fires around SYD with a bucket. It was a while ago but think this is correct.

The FX conversion is worth a look if wanting to avoid troublemecca.

[Aeng]

Good day , I am having a problem . My ignitors are going off every time we switch on the battery , we hear them go off ..
Also as we are flying we are hearing the auto ignition going off..
Does anyone have any idea where to look to resolve this problem .. we have no warning lights

[md 600 driver]

Good day , I am having a problem . My ignitors are going off every time we switch on the battery , we hear them go off ..
Also as we are flying we are hearing the auto ignition going off..
Does anyone have any idea where to look to resolve this problem .. we have no warning lights

its some time now since I flew a 600 but does not the cracker box come on straight away when starting. ,I can remember that there were some problems with the the cracker boxes and when starting I was always happy to hear them cracking away if I didn’t hear them it meant I would not be getting a start and a new cracker box would be needed I had 4 from memory
or you could try tapping the cracker box it may start

[pretel]

I have a 600 and it smells like kerosene in flight! have you had this problem?

[ericferret]

I have a 600 and it smells like kerosene in flight! have you had this problem?

I am assuming it's fuel system is like a 500. There are tank vent lines in the area under the front centre seat that have been known to perish and split.
I would start there. Getting to the fuel tank covers is easy enough that is somewhere else to look.