Fake Log book Hours Blacklist

[Chocks Away]

After watching various "training mechanisms" of a few airlines struggle, at the supply of apparently "qualified aircrew" ... to meet increasing fleet staffing requirements, I feel it's is long overdue to speak out.

There are too many pilots around trying to gain Commands or F/o slots on bogus types they know nothing about, with fake hours!
Fact!

Gone are the days of logbooks being retained by the prospective company for factual checks prior to interview. Logbooks are not even checked at interview by simply "turning a page over" and checking Aircraft Registrations &/or Crew!
(TAKE NOTE HR!)

I am sick and tired of unqualified amateurs claiming quals and types they have no idea about, only to clog up the training mechanisms in stupidity and wasted limited sim times over their prospective employees lies.

Its time to name and shame those that lie and/or fail, as the ounce reputable, honest and highly held profession of Airline Pilot has now sunk into the realms of what bit of paper with fake quals you can get out of India/Thailand, instead of honest logbook hours & Reference Checks.

Handing over...

[tomuchwork]

Hmm. As someone who never faked one(1!) hour in his life I must say that I had already some interviews where they had a very good look at my logbooks. Had to bring all of them on 2 occasions, both european operators I must add.

I remember my QR interview and they did NOT check my last logbook at all. So, not entirely true, at least for some operators. But I have heard about guys faking hours, but it did not help them at all. Airlines expect experience from you, so, if you overdo the "faking" thing they will catch you eventually(missing command experience, missing widebody experience, etc.).

[fatbus]

The problem now is the baby pilots that had daddy buy 320/73NG rating and with connections to get a job . Then 3 years later has the 2500 auto pilot hours but meets the requirements

[White Knight]

The problem now is the baby pilots that had daddy buy 320/73NG rating and with connections to get a job . Then 3 years later has the 2500 auto pilot hours but meets the requirements

Too true........................ Where have you gone handling skills?

[Honest Fr@nk]

I know of a couple of Pilots who have faked experience/command courses that are now Captains. Scary thing is that one of the individuals false credentials is known to the company that they work for AND the relevant Authority and yet nothing was done????

[joe.bloggs]

Chocks Away. I take it you have verified information about a fake hours racket in India/Thailand? or is that an unqualified opinion like the people you're ranting about?

[fatbus]

Factual !!!

[nakbin330]

Factual !!!

You Can Get a Pilot License in India After Just 35 Minutes in ...
www.bloomberg.com/.../pilots-qualified-to-fly-in-india...air

[airborneksa]

big boys using Air Crew Check | Just another WordPress site (http://www.aircrewcheck.com)

[Chocks Away]

Fact Joe, as has also been supported by others posts above. Happy now? It's an extremely naive comment for you to make and it's not just India & Thailand now too but way more widespread.

This topic is running in another Forum Section (http://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/581250-fake-log-book-hours-blacklist.html)with some interesting result.

Time for HR departments and Regulators to take note because it's a much bigger problem than I suspected and cuts to the heart of the industry's credibility.

Happy Landings.

[glofish]

The industry does not care about fake hours as they desperately need applicants!
And as we all know, the regulator does what the industry pay them to look away from.
Finally HR couldn't give a rodents back side for honest hours as they are so full of themselves pretending to be able to see right through any sweating candidate in their sad little offices just by their superior psychological prowesses.

So who would go for the daunting task to verify this widespread scam? It's once again shoved down the food chain to initially the instructors, who will more and more come out of the same ranks, and finally to the skippers on the line who will have to deal with the mess.

The industry couldn't care less, it will be one more accident that can be labeled 'pilot error', everything else is sooooo professional and controlled and overseen, no one could see that one coming, it will be forgotten in a short time and the cheap show goes on.

Just read the weekly incident reports at EK and you will get a very clear picture what's already cooked up. Clear and present danger!

[Chocks Away]

Yeh interesting thoughts and well put Glofish:ok:

[Perwazee]

'Chocks Away' and 'goldfish' would've gotten many 'Likes' if that option was provided here.

This is an important issue and should be discussed as such. I recently flew with a guy who told me he has 50 hours of B737 SIC time and 9 hours of PIC time...yet, he has no records of upgrade training. I give up.

[Lookleft]

Why is this thread on the ME forum as well as the D&G?

[stev]

surely in this day and age every reputable operator has a record of hours flown by all there pilots per year and total online.How about a global record of all airline pilots hrs per year to be submitted to a global licensing authority. Who in turn keeps track of all licensed pilots and there ratings and actual hours flown. Might not be able to stop people building hrs with there pen in the early days of there career but would make sure they were honest once they enter the airlines. Pretty simple to do! sorry I forgot we have 100's of Civil Aviation authorities that can't agree on jack ****.

[Chocks Away]

Stev- sorry but no. The day of reputable Operators is few and far between now sadly (hence the huge amount of crew changing jobs globally right now). Many companies don't even keep records of Low Vis Ops / CAT 2-3b / night tkof-ldg etc etc but will hold dearly any warning letters!
It is in two Forums for now but should be in three others because I know of many others cases in Asia and South America and Europe where the passengers should be very afraid!
I'll put it this way: there are a growing number of airlines now which myself, friends & family go no where near. This is not a stunt people. Get a reality check! One of an airlines' major expenditure is to silence media attention when an accident happens. Brand protection... and that occurs well before a fake pilot is found as the cause. PR & HR are massive now and are tin plating their asses (as has been mentioned in previous posts).
This is real and will cost many more lives / "incidents" / "occurrences" until a regulator's or relative's life is lost before real change happens... it's called "affordablle safety"... How few checks and cheap can we go before a life is lost!
Just look at the airlines refused into EU and why. Who were the crew? Legit Quals & hours?
Thanks for the support and feedback fellas.
We effected changed with AvMed Australia due to threads here and media so I hope for the same here, failing Regualor's attention to the huge issue.

[stev]

Chocks away
unfortunately you are correct my scorn of the regulatory authorities, is more an attack on the symptoms than tackling the cause. I hadn't accounted for the fact that the airlines $ men consider it more cost effective to hire someone with good pen man ship than good airmanship. A very safe and reputable outfit I worked for early on stated in the early days. Safety is utmost we cannot suffer a hull loss. That would be the end of us. 5 years later the story was "well we could probably survive 2 crashes, but no more than that". Weird ehh! Survival of the brand and the $ crunchers. Unfortunately that's what we're left with!

[fatbus]

Silence can be bought.

[ironbutt57]

apparently one famous faker kicked out of a couple airlines in the region, then in jail because of another, has been seen in Saudi..330 Capt....they just keep resurfacing

[GillEx737]

apparently one famous faker kicked out of a couple airlines in the region, then in jail because of another, has been seen in Saudi..330 Capt....they just keep resurfacing

Wow ironbutt you're just desperate to share this news!

[ironbutt57]

[QUOTE=GillEx737;10002368]Wow ironbutt you're just desperate to share this news![/QUOTE

If it is accurate, doesn’t it pose a threat to safety?

[Dan Winterland]

They are sometimes difficult to spot. My company checks log books very carefully, but it appears even then they can get through. We had one pilot who got through the training system who was very full of himself, regaling everyone with tlaes of his experience - he seemed to have done a lot considering he was so young. But his ability didn't match his claims. I wasn't even happy with his taxiing! Eventually, he failed a recurrent sim once too often - and is now flying for one of our competitors. The problem is that although we suspected him of falsifying hours, it's very hard to prove without corroboration from aircraft logbooks etc.

But if someone does come across proof of a fraud, it's beholden of them to report. Ernest Gann in 'Fate is the Hunter' recounts a pilot who in many pilot's opinion was a fraud. When he subsequently crashed an aircraft in another company killing himself and all on board, Gann felt remorse for not 'outing' him at the time. These people are defrauding the majority of honest pilots, and put their passengers at risk. I would have no hesitation in shopping a fake pilot if I had proof.

And sometimes the truth is easy to find. This guy https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/51398/Cheating-pilot-s-new-career-is-flying-high falsified a RAF career including a fully signed up logbook. His fall came when applying for a command, one of the managers was surprised on checking his RAF logbook to see entries claiming to be on a Squadron that the manager was on at the time. But the manager couldn't remember him! Amazingly, he's back flying. If it were down to me, he would be barred from holding a licence due to a lack of integrity.

[Schnowzer]

If it were down to me, he would be barred from holding a licence due to a lack of integrity.

Dan, I agree but integrity is sadly becoming an endangered beast in some parts.

[pfvspnf]

The RAF guy is the same guy that's flying for your competitor ?

[Chesty Morgan]

Its time to name and shame those that lie and/or fail...

Go on then...!

[Dave Clarke Fife]

And sometimes the truth is easy to find. This guy https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/51398/Cheating-pilot-s-new-career-is-flying-high falsified a RAF career including a fully signed up logbook. His fall came when applying for a command, one of the managers was surprised on checking his RAF logbook to see entries claiming to be on a Squadron that the manager was on at the time. But the manager couldn't remember him! Amazingly, he's back flying. If it were down to me, he would be barred from holding a licence due to a lack of integrity.

Wasn't this the guy who was in ATC and logged the Tonka departures which subsequently went into his falsified logbook?? The wannabe FJ mate got caught out when the Airtours manager who was ( or was he not cos my memory is a bit iffy) the boss of the "Goldstars" and a bona FJ mate and asked a few probing questions about squadron members and squadron life. Which of course the gentleman in question couldn't answer.

SG is still flying high with Jet2

[Phantom Driver]

Sadly, the "parker pen hours" phenomenon has been around since time immemorial . One good thing about the military background was that it was somewhat difficult to fake these things .

Apart from the fact that , on fast jets you did relatively little flying each month, (and so easy to check errors), on each of those months you filled in a total summary that was verified and signed by the squadron boss and every three months (as I recall) , it went to the base commanders office for his stamp and signature. Of course, the minions did the verification but it would be a brave chap who risked his career/neck to help out a comrade .

A military logbook could be relied on.

Sadly, I could not report the same degree of rigour once I transitioned to civil flying . I continued the old habit of monthly summary, and each year went along to the fleet office with my logbook. The nice lady put a rubber stamp on it and, if you were lucky and he was around, got the fleet captain to put his thumbprint on it. Nobody actually checked the hours I had written in.


Later on, the computerised system came in and you could get a print out to present to your next employer. The best companies demanded it , but many less enlightened outfits did not , so some "Walter Mitty" types were able to sneak in under false pretences and go on to build up legitimate hours.

The good thing is that most of these characters ( and there have been quite a few) are eventually found out . Aviation is indeed a small world , and the system will eventually weed them out, thank goodness. Most of us have seen the movie-"Catch me if you can" ; the con artists are out there , but the old adage stands--"Truth will out".

In the cockpit, when it comes down to the professional stuff, you can't hide things from your colleagues ; and then the word slowly gets around.....

[Ramones]

Sadly, the "parker pen hours" phenomenon has been around since time immemorial . One good thing about the military background was that it was somewhat difficult to fake these things .

Apart from the fact that , on fast jets you did relatively little flying each month, (and so easy to check errors), on each of those months you filled in a total summary that was verified and signed by the squadron boss and every three months (as I recall) , it went to the base commanders office for his stamp and signature. Of course, the minions did the verification but it would be a brave chap who risked his career/neck to help out a comrade .

A military logbook could be relied on.

Sadly, I could not report the same degree of rigour once I transitioned to civil flying . I continued the old habit of monthly summary, and each year went along to the fleet office with my logbook. The nice lady put a rubber stamp on it and, if you were lucky and he was around, got the fleet captain to put his thumbprint on it. Nobody actually checked the hours I had written in.


Later on, the computerised system came in and you could get a print out to present to your next employer. The best companies demanded it , but many less enlightened outfits did not , so some "Walter Mitty" types were able to sneak in under false pretences and go on to build up legitimate hours.

The good thing is that most of these characters ( and there have been quite a few) are eventually found out . Aviation is indeed a small world , and the system will eventually weed them out, thank goodness. Most of us have seen the movie-"Catch me if you can" ; the con artists are out there , but the old adage stands--"Truth will out".

In the cockpit, when it comes down to the professional stuff, you can't hide things from your colleagues ; and then the word slowly gets around.....
Fully agree, and by the way another “fake” Captain is now heading to Far East after being cought in a south of DXB major Company
He became magically Captain after a change of EASA licence from one country to another passing to a nord African ( Mediterranean) Company were he left as copilot and arrived in the new Company as very experienced 👩*✈️ Captain
As you said , eventually they get cought for a reason or another
Happy new year Folks

[Old King Coal]

For what it's worth, within the period of the last 15 months, I had to fire two Captains (both holding EASA licences, issued by Germany & France, respectively), wherein both were downright bloody dangerous and very evidently never previously in the LHS (i.e. fakers), though the really worrying bit is "where are they now?!".
Imho, there's something very wrong with the recruitment selection & vetting process (and also with initial OCC sim) that such people keep slipping through the net and are only being appropriately questioned (and caught out) when they're into the Line Training (which is when both of the ones that I'm referring to got binned).... but they're still out there, somewhere?!

[GoreTex]

G.Evangelisti, a famous TRE in Emptyhad got fired from Alitalia for faking his hours, there are many out there