EK Training department roster

[MR8]

Provisional roster for August is out, and just as July, it is a complete disaster..
Do any of the trainers still receive their block of days off? I have a maximum of 2 days off in a row in both July and (provisional) August. I had a look at some random rosters and it seems that I am not alone, there are some horrible trainer rosters out there. Quite a bit worse then line rosters. On top of that, try swapping a training duty: basically impossible.

[Saltaire]

It's not good at all. Same for me. Happy to have leave this summer but only 2 days off after and zero prior. I bid for the block - denied. Things are really breaking down.

[spanishfly69]

MR8, Why are you still training then? quit.. It is as simple as that.

[MR8]

MR8, Why are you still training then? quit.. It is as simple as that.

SpanishFly, because I like training, simple as that. Unfortunately, the cons of being in training are starting to outweigh the motivation, so I'm seriously considering quitting, just as you suggested. Just wondering whether it is just me, or is this feeling widespread in the department?

MR8

[The Turtle]

It's so bad I hear the line audit gents are being told to go fly and no audits

[Praise Jebus]

One reason given for abused partners staying in a relationship that every one else can see as bad is they have invested time and effort into that relationship and just want it to return to the good old days. They hang on hoping it might change back for the better but sadly, just keep getting the abuse....Keep hanging on MR8...

[STD]

Same here, no block of days off being honored, it's the only carrot that would make us happy. Time to bring it up on the coming STD meetings?

Guess not! Been there, done that! Apathy sinking in, working on exit plan.

That's it!

[jack schidt]

I left training (not too long ago) after many years in the department. I haven't felt happier in a long time. More days off, more money per hour in the seat, per diems, no reports, no risks, no regrets.


J

[Jetkopite]

GAME OVER boys.. Its only gonna get worse... Resignation is so close I can smell it and cant wait... Only thing keeping me going, that and SK :-)))))

[MR8]

Don't worry fellas, the company won't miss you. Looking at a swap earlier today I happened to notice that the swappee is in training to be a trainer. I know him well enough to know that he's had his command five and a half minutes, no previous training background or command time, staff number well into the s40s. Further research showed that he's not on his own.

I too have seen some of the new LTC's, and wondered on which experience they actually going to train.. Nothing wrong with a new trainer: everybody has to start somewhere, but I would like to believe that you would need some actual command experience before you can train an upgrade on 'soft skills'.

Conditions for the new LTC scheme have changed dramatically from the old TRI-AO's as in it is now a pay-per-duty appointment. 500 Dhs per training duty vs. a monthly appointment pay. Another erosion of our conditions. Wondering how long it's going to take to have pay per duty TRI and TRE's?

And last but for sure not least, I guess a lot of the line guys who are lining up to become a LTC still have the impression that trainers are in a better bidding position with a better lifestyle. It is clear that these people haven't been looking at some random rosters from trainers lately, this is for sure not the case anymore.

MR8

[Laker]

500 AED per training duty?!!:yuk: About $27/hour for a 777/380 trainer. Unbelievable. That would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

@MR8, seeing some of my buddies Training rosters, when this latest FCI came out, i thought about applying for it for about 5 minutes, then said nah!

One of them told me that the training rosters are sh1t and also told me you do realise that its pay per training duty. Also, when being trained to be a trainer, you get no additional training pay, wtf!! :mad::mad: Plus to be honest, its the Training job with the most risk to your career (Line Trainer), and some of the delightful places we fly to, f**k that.

Only good side, some enjoy the training, not much jet lag, but thats about it.

SyB :yuk::yuk:

[harry the cod]

SYB

Agree with you, especially on the point of risk. Despite a cultural improvement from the training department, and to some extent fleet, putting your career on the line for 500dhs a duty is madness. Unfortunately, the kudos for many new Captains of adding a star onto their still shiny new 4 stripes is too hard to resist. What they may not have grasped yet is that just one screw up which exposes the brand in a negative light and they're toast.

The Manchester event may have been 5-6 years ago but that was the day I decided to avoid ever becoming a LTC/TRI in this Company. And while I do have sympathy for the many trainers frustrated with their rosters, and who might well be getting more professional satisfaction than financial from the role, resigning on mass is the only way you'll ever change conditions.

Remember, they need trainers to train trainers!

Harry

[MR8]

SYB

...And while I do have sympathy for the many trainers frustrated with their rosters, and who might well be getting more professional satisfaction than financial from the role, resigning on mass is the only way you'll ever change conditions.

Remember, they need trainers to train trainers!

Harry

Harry,

You are absolutely right, but unfortunately in the trainer group, as well as in the pilot group, there is no unity. Too many trainers won't quit because they can't afford to lose the money, or they couldn't stand not having the shiny star on their shoulder, or any other reason. Also, who will find the courage to organize a mass resignation?? It sounds awfully close to a unionized action, and we all know what could be lost doing that.
The sad reality is that the training department will slowly be losing the guys with a genuine interest in giving training, but who can't find the motivation anymore due to the abusive rosters.

MR8

[what_goes_up]

21 days leave and over 42 hours in the remaining. 1 single day off after leave.
Keep writing your concerns to MM and don't forget to copy HD.
Same as MR8.... Love training but not at the current pace... :(

[Kamelchaser]

Sat through a training "standards" meeting recently. One "compromise" after the next presented to the meeting. We've moved from a department focused on "industry best practise" to now doing whatever is needed to complete the task.

Now we have turbo prob pilots being trained by out source trainers overseas who may have never operated with EK procedures, or perhaps ground instructors in Dubai who've never flown jets, then they're trained in the aircraft by new trainers who've never instructed on jets and potentially only had six months command themselves. The managers are swamped just trying to keep up with all the changes, so they struggle to monitor the progress of trainees. Every trainer is doing 90-110 hours, far more training duties than ever before. (now running at 14-16 per month). Everyone is completely knackered.

Trainees are being rushed through courses, and it's quite clear more "compromises" are being applied when it comes to pass standards.

Doesn't take a great deal of intelligence to figure that risks are at an all time high.

When are our managers going to grow a set and simply say "we can't do this at this level any longer". Ain't going to happen of course.

[Jetkopite]

As long as the guys going through upgrade are not being rushed and helped through if they are not upto standard because soon you will have guys in the left and right who are not experienced taking people over the N Pole and other demanding parts of the World... Overall its not a good situation and soon something may happen with this and the fatigue issues at present...:mad:

[SMT Member]

When are our managers going to grow a set and simply say "we can't do this at this level any longer". Ain't going to happen of course

I would suggest at around the same time, line pilots decide they've had it. The reasons are the same for both: No unity amongst the ranks, entirely ego driven agenda and the knowledge if you say no, you'll be replaced instantly by someone who'll have a go at it.

Managers and pilots have so much in common, it's 'funny' how they don't get along better. On further examination, however, it becomes apparent why that is the case: Pitching two massive ego's against each other is hardly a recipe for success.

[fatbus]

Don't worry , those TP pilots will be fast tracked into the LHS 380 and become LTCs in 6 months . Just waiting for the holes to all align. Could be why several senior TREs have quit.

[ekwhistleblower]

When are our managers going to grow a set and simply say "we can't do this at this level any longer". Ain't going to happen of course.


Eventually all are assimilated to the Borg!

They do occasionally say it shouldn't happen and exit straight left shortly later. It was about 3 years ago the last manager put his head above the parapet. He got it shot off!

[Monarch Man]

And.....now there's no shortage of trainers, but it would seem that there aren't enough to cover new joiners, upgrades, PPC's etc. Am hearing stories that over the last 2 weeks or so that the system has somewhat imploded with resignations and sickness.

[Jetkopite]

FATBUS those holes are aligning just perfectly I feel... Thats my ONLY concern here..

[Capn Rex Havoc]

I see the training newsletter has gone from being monthly to 4 times a year to now once a year, well maybe not but the last one was in January.

[Eau de Boeing]

It's all been replaced with Yammer......
:ugh:

[camber]

Haven't had a month like this for awhile! 117 hours, 16 training duties, and 7 days off. But the wheels haven't fallen off yet, right?!

[Desert Camel]

The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round....

What's the problem?

[glofish]

I'm usually not the type that likes the "if you don't like it, leave" dribble.

But with instructors this slogan sticks.
The only thing they would lose is a bit more money and some privileges. On the other hand, as it seems, they could gain on days off and time off.
The company can't bully them, as it is a strictly benevolent additional task.

The normal line swine can't just leave. We all know why, kids in school, mortgage, no time for interview with other companies and so on.
But instructors would only pay a minuscule price for leaving their ordeal.

So why aren't they leaving??? :ugh:

Expect very little sympathy for your plight from the normal guys ......

[fatbus]

Short answer "ego"

[Monarch Man]

Have to agree with Fatty, what little benefit gained from the position is lost on most of us ordinary line trash. I've asked numerous times, at the completion of the mutually respectful and shared goals checking session why don't you resign Mr TRE if training blows worse than a Thai ladyboy, thus far it would appear training has a ways to go to compare to the large handed pretend ladies in Asia, and before anyone asks, no, I have no actual personal experience of said large hands.

[spanishfly69]

EGO, MONEY and POWER over the line pilots.
and adding to the psychopath benefits;
Do the math, 117hrs = 29 overtime hrs = aed 18,415 + TRE Allowance = +- aed 26500

[Calmcavok]

Those digging in with the ego & power trip line, my experience is almost entirely at odds with that viewpoint. Whether in training or line flights, the trainers I've flown with have been excellent (with a couple of notable exceptions, but they are exceptions), and no power trip has been evident. I think it's unfair to paint the training department with such a broad brush.

I take the point though that the only way to effect significant change is by mass resignations.

[Mango]

Don't worry , those TP pilots will be fast tracked into the LHS 380 and become LTCs in 6 months . Just waiting for the holes to all align. Could be why several senior TREs have quit.
Unfortunately, I have seen very inexperienced (nil previous command time) 380 captain becoming a LTC. The integrity of the training department has vanished. What were they thinking???

[ClassCbird]

Maybe some of these new LTCs have gone for the position because they want to train??? Some, perhaps, have gone for the position to improve their resume in the hope of escaping EK sooner! I have met a few trainers and 'newer' LTCs and i have to say with absolute conviction, these guys are the least egotistical fellas i have come across here at EK.

Disagreeing with company policies is one thing, however, attacking individuals and the group doing this difficult and vital role, is not appropriate regardless of experience levels. Some of the above posts are sounding quite bitter and quite personal. Shame really as you guys are all on the Titanic together!

[OBOGS]

"EGO, MONEY and POWER over the line pilots"

And the typical motivators for a line captain upgrade were?

[777boyo]

Company I worked for prior to joining EK in mid-90's insisted on (if my memory is correct) minimum three years left seat, along with a minimum "similar type" requirement before they would even consider a candidate for entry into training. Most had much more. I can't recall any complaints about the quality of training, with the exception of the usual one or two "personalities" in the department.

I believe most UK carriers had similar requirements at the time.

7B

[Mango]

Maybe some of these new LTCs have gone for the position because they want to train??? Some, perhaps, have gone for the position to improve their resume in the hope of escaping EK sooner! I have met a few trainers and 'newer' LTCs and i have to say with absolute conviction, these guys are the least egotistical fellas i have come across here at EK.

Disagreeing with company policies is one thing, however, attacking individuals and the group doing this difficult and vital role, is not appropriate regardless of experience levels. Some of the above posts are sounding quite bitter and quite personal. Shame really as you guys are all on the Titanic together!
ClassCbird-There has to be some experience not none experience. B777 and A380 are not single engine Cessna's or Tobago's. If you want to do training and you have zero experience what ever happened about going to the sim?

[bigdaviet]

Surely one thing we can all agree on is that 400hrs command time is insufficient to become an LTC?

[glofish]

It might not only be an ego incentive, i give interest in training is a noble thing. But then i would never trade off too much work for that reason.
There must be more. If it's money, then don't complain. If it's perceived better leaving options, again don't complain, you are suffering for a better fate.
If it's for the star, then please leave, as it's not worth punishing yourself including us others for that.

Just one thing, in sustaining of what has been said: I would have never considered applying before having gained adequate experience. This in respect of all trainees. Pilots doing that are useless and borderline dangerous.
We can debate the required experience, but at EK it's definitely busted.

[Wh1sper]

I agree with 777boyo, 3 years in the left seat at EK should be a minimum to become a trainer. And how about sending out a list with the names of the aspiring trainers and let the line CA's and FO's give their input. This is the way we did it in the military.

[donpizmeov]

They should get all those that have too many sick days, or too many double secret written verbal warnings, and make them trainers. The paltry pay per duty offered would be the biggest punishment yet.

[CAYNINE]

I don't recall anyone being forced to join the elite egocentric group of star wearers........ stop your bloody whinging and please for all our sakes get the dictionary out and check out the diff between training and checking.... 380 landing techniques are just an example!

[XTurb]

Sorry to change the topic a bit...

Rumour is of carnage in training. New FOs failing left, right and center. Ok, maybe 'carnage' might be an exaggeration, but the rumour is that there are significantly higher rates of disruption to trainers rosters due to trainees being taken off-line, interview days, back into the sim etc. At least higher rates than yesteryear...

[fatbus]

Based on the product coming through the door , that is to be expected, but senior management can not understand why.

[ExDubai]

Based on the product coming through the door , that is to be expected, but senior management can not understand why.
What you pay for is what you get ;)

Edit: When you lower the requirements you have to invest into the training. Lowering the requirements and no investment into training will lead to trouble.

[ryanb5005]

Is the training for an Emirates FO especially difficult or unfair? Compared to a US major?

[White Knight]

Is the training for an Emirates FO especially difficult or unfair? Compared to a US major?

No. If you know your stuff you shouldn't have any issues with the training!

[Panther 88]

Is the training for an Emirates FO especially difficult or unfair? Compared to a US major?
Unfair, not really...more difficult, probably. Overall, a higher expectation of knowledge of SOPs, OM-A (FOM) data, minutiae, and proper R/T. Not as much knowledge of systems as many US carriers. A greater need for knowledge of Rules and Regulations of a varied system network. JUST MHO.

[ruserious]

Large amounts of rote learning so you can regurgitate how to paint by numbers, very little practical airmanship required

[trimotor]

Ok, time to defend the trainers.

ruserious: if you don't rote learn some stuff, so you can recall it at will, you should never pass any course, anywhere. Grow up.

Being asked a question in training is not checking: questioning is a valid technique to determine where the trainee's knowledge level is: why work through stuff he/she knows?

There have been many trainees very used to being spoon-fed the whole course. I won't name where from, but they are quite a big group and sometimes initially struggle to get to terms with the concept of turning up prepared.

The return to instilling (I'm not sure that it's something can can actually be trained) airmanship has been a focus on the training dept for some time...a drift away from the old 'if it's not in a book, it doesn't happen' methodology.

Basically, anyone who turns up with a modicum of skill, common sense and diligence will pass the course. There is no checking conspiracy.

[fatbus]

Agree with Trimotor. Those that show up unprepared or prepared to fed are in for a shock. It's not just an EK thing .

[clear to land]

To be honest been 'spoon fed' is one of the main culprits in the overall industry wide deterioration of standards/airmanship. If you aren't interested in extending your professional knowledge through background research, and don't arrive at a lesson having reviewed the content-thus maximise the benefit to yourself, then IMHO you have the wrong attitude to be in ANY cockpit anywhere. It is our job to be as prepared as we can-that is intrinsic to professionalism. As far as training goes-given lack of trainer continuity-a trainer must ask questions to ascertain knowledge so that training can be delivered at an appropriate level. If this identifies that the trainee is not prepared-then that is the trainees issue-not the trainers. This applies in any profession and also any educational strategy except perhaps that of pre-school.

[glofish]

I totally agree, preparation is elementary and wanting to be spoon-fed is unprofessional.

But what many are talking here is that as trainee you might expect more than questioning what you retained from preparation from the books and charts. You might expect knowledge and experience BEYOND that, this is what eventually brings you further and that should be provided by trainers.
This is sometimes lacking at EK and the reason is that many trainers getting into the job too early simply do not have that themselves.

That would be the responsibility of the managers in training.

[falconeasydriver]

Interesting discussion guys, kind of makes me roll my eyes a little and breath in the fresh non EK air.
Anyway here goes with my opinion FWIW.
Despite various attempts over the years and despite there being some exceptional individuals contained within the training dept, regrettably the same issues regurgitate themselves again and again. Yes being prepared is a must, it is a function of the individuals approach to their profession and how they view their path through the system such as it is.
EK and in this case the training department is quite frankly a reflection on the culture and mindset of the entire organisation. There is very little in the way of training that's is carried out because the majority of current trainers were never schooled in that manner themselves, the exception in my experience was the NAC course which was during my time at EK the most sensible and practical 3 months of training.
The leadership group in training have backgrounds that again apart from an exception or two, shouldn't be let anywhere near airline training, with the present culture of the place it's hardly surprising that a greater emphasis is placed on checking rather than a bit T. It is also entirely consistent with the ME in general that there is a far greater emphasis placed by the trainers on minutiae and their own personal status than actually being a beacon and providing guidance, they are in fact deficient themselves in being able to impart useful knowledge. It's all rather sad.
Contrast this with a recent recurrent in DXB no less at CAE where the training was an absolute pleasure, it was all about sharing and imparting with none of the nonsense that more often than not accompanied and EK training detail, what a delightful change :ok:

[Panther 88]

The sad fact is, here on the big bus, it is a requirement to have knowledge of over 13,000 pages of information (not including the DG manual). How is a newbie supposed to have a knowledge of what's important other than the FCTM, and the FCOM? The rest will come with experience. But much of the training/checking is on the OM-A and Lido documentation. I remember that during CRM recurrent it was asked what were the stabilized approach criteria. In my class about 1/4 of the guys got the right answer. Our documentation is the pits, and a newbie is supposed to have that knowledge?

[fatbus]

FFS info is clear cut as to what topics are going to be covered . The baby pilots seem to get it.

[donpizmeov]

Panther. If the newbies were not trained on OMA and lido stuff would they be much help to a line Capt? I cant see why training on company fuel policy, and info pertaining to FIRs we fly through could be considered over the top. As fatty says, all topics and references are given. They seem to handle it just as I am sure you did.

[ruserious]

ruserious: if you don't rote learn some stuff, so you can recall it at will, you should never pass any course, anywhere.

No argument on that, it is the level and emphasis on rote learning that is required that I am concerned about.

Thanks for the grow up advice, that is helpful

[777-200LR]

Why should LIDO GEN stuff be difficult? Yes there is a vast amout of info, majority of which is 'by reference', but how is it any different to JEPP GEN everyone was using in their previous life? Its exactly the same content; squak 7600 when you can't speak anymore, 2 red/2 whites will always look pretty etc!

What differs is FCOM and OMA, 2-3 months to have an above average working knowledge by the time you come up for your RLC, is a small requirement in just about any airline.

[fliion]

Can't remember ever been asked to regurgitate anything by rote in a pre sim brief except memory items & limitations ...and that was as a new hire.

Apply knowledge in sim - yep.

[Panther 88]

Panther. If the newbies were not trained on OMA and lido stuff would they be much help to a line Capt? I cant see why training on company fuel policy, and info pertaining to FIRs we fly through could be considered over the top. As fatty says, all topics and references are given. They seem to handle it just as I am sure you did.
The gentleman asked if it were different than the US training. Simply said it was, not just learning to fly the a/c safely. Where some of the emphasis is placed comparison with other training from other parts of the world. Is one better than the other? Up to interpretation. I want a new f/o to know how to handle the aircraft in certain situations. After decades of flying, I have never seen the minutiae needed to be regurgitated as it is here. Take a look at a LIFUS checklist.....what is the trainee supposed to see what is important. He doesn't have the experience. Very similar to many India destinations with 15 pages of NOTAMS. What really is pertinent?

[ruserious]

Can't remember ever been asked to regurgitate anything by rote

Really, have you never listened to one of our departure briefs, done by the book

[clear to land]

If you do a departure briefing by the book, after the EMG Brief you follow a specific order-but that is all. 'By the book' you address only pertinent threats to your flight-hopefully with mitigation techniques mentioned. If it is a 'standard' flight the briefing should last a maximum of 90 secs. If yours take longer you are not following the guidance of said 'book!'

[donpizmeov]

And that's from an ozzie. And dat bruther talk dah truetalk.

[ruserious]

If you do a departure briefing by the book That's what I am talking about......daily experience has me listening to a sing-song, by rote emergency briefing that has virtually no value from a threat perspective and at times seems to be a race to get through all the perceived important words and phrases. By any standards a large percentage of our briefs are by rote, how has that happened without the help of our training system and those who write the SOP's?

[fatbus]

One small note- the training department is a service provider. Fleet is responsible for SOP's.

[gatbusdriver]

You had me at star.........

[fliion]

If you're going to quote me ... use full sentence. "Pre - sim"

Another one with fine print challenges

But seeing as you've moved it to departure brief. Love a STD dep brief followed by threats.

[ruserious]

Works both way Filly, at what point did I ever mention Sim

[clear to land]

You want to mention 'fine print' fliion I suggest new glasses may be in order. My comment was a direct response to the one immediately above it-I re-read it just to check as I always assume I am wrong-but I am confident it says 'pre-departure briefing-hence I stand by me response!:cool:

[fatbus]

Thought this was about trainers rosters?

[Eau de Boeing]

Steady on Fatbus, we just need some Boeing V Airbus and some new FX Scheme and then we have the entire Middle East PPRuNe on one thread.

:ugh:

[fliion]

CtL

Wasnt referencing your post ... More the expectation of regurgitating rote in training ...haven't experienced it myself... then it got misquoted into pre brief.

Anyway back to thread subject. I'm not a trainer but had a casual second read of the FCN and a look at some trainer rosters - and its apparent the pain is shared.

FlyDubai seems have been forgotten, (where it happened didn't help) looks like 95+ for everyone, attrition back to full speed judging by casual encounters, trainers slammed.

Many, including myself, had said a major incident would be the only thing that stops the madness - well it didn't.

I guess the incident or accident will have to be even closer to home for these guys to wake up.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Always wondered why Ek briefings never included reject briefing info regarding between 80 kts and V1. (Fire, smoke, W/S, not capable of flying etc).

It is simply a robotic non thinking brief given that is done a thousand times without much thought process to it.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Kapt habibi.

You as Captain, can make the briefing as robotic and boring as you like. I never do that, yes I may say the standard stuff on day 1/Sector 1, but I always try and make my briefings relevant to the day of operation, and build in some resilience to the Non normal stuff and indeed normal stuff. C/TWO lets you do that.

I have NEVER been criticised for that, on the contrary.

Anyhow, Trainer rosters are still crap, and getting worse :ugh::ugh:

SyB :zzz::zzz:

[The Crew]

Since when is the North Pole demanding ? You manual flying it ?!

[bogeydope]

Since when is the North Pole demanding ? You manual flying it ?!
Hahahahahah..............you're funny!!!

I mean clueless.........

[harry the cod]

Perhaps 'challenging' might be a better description of operations over the pole. Like 99% of our operations on new and highly automated & reliable equipment, our role is mainly to monitor. Hardly demanding other than humans are not best suited or designed to successfully deal with such monotony. This creates a performance over several hours that slides to the left of the famous performance/arousal curve making us vulnerable when we least expect it to a non normal. Low levels of alertness suddenly interrupted by a confusing and startling non normal event. AF447 trigger any bells?

Those that have spent those long hours pondering what to do, where to go and who to speak to are going to find the experience far less stressful than those sat with one finger up their backside while the other is jabbing at their I pads, all the while thinking what an easy gig this ULR stuff is. No doubt the same morons sat for 7 hours in their sweaty jim jams. Nice.....not!

That, 'The Crew', is the difference between a professional pilot and a pilot who thinks he knows but doesn't know what he thinks he knows! Comprende?

Not sure where you're going with a few of your recent posts but I hope I'm answering them to your satisfaction. :mad:

Harry

[White none please]

"Those that have spent those long hours pondering what to do, where to go and who to speak to are going to find the experience far less stressful than those sat with one finger up their backside while the other is jabbing at their I pads, all the while thinking what an easy gig this ULR stuff is. No doubt the same morons sat for 7 hours in their sweaty jim jams. Nice.....not!"

As usual ..........Dripping! With 'Holier than thou', :rolleyes:

[White Knight]

Ever the Uniform Fetishist Harry..... Do you really think that sitting there for 7 hours in your sweaty uniform makes you any better or more professional than those of us who like to be a bit more comfortable on a ULR over that pesky North Pole?

Possibly you fly with your hat on too! You must be really good!

WK

[SilverSeated]

As usual ..........Dripping! With 'Holier than thou',

Really! What do you do WnP?

OK The PJ comment is a bit OTT but awareness of your environment, how is that "Holier than thou"!??? Good luck...

[Monarch Man]

I sit in my PJ's WITH my hat on...

[harry the cod]

With the exception of MM (even sarcasm is something I can recognise), I guess it's obvious who the culprits are defending their precious pyjama fetish...and iPad use.

My point was referring to more of an attitude of professionalism. If you feel more 'comfortable' in pyjamas then so be it. Just hope you allow enough time when you're informed of the cabin fire to change during the emergency descent, re route, fuel jettison, NITS brief, PA, checklists, performance calculations, airfield brief, advise Company and flying the plane......I'm sure a few minutes can be found.

Or just keep them on during the evacuation as you take charge either side and direct passengers. Wearing you hat might well be the only item of clothing that convinces those entrusted with their lives that you were actually at the pointy end. Of course, the hat might not even be necessary. The 'CREW' sticker on the back should be good enough for most. Muppets.

Harry

[BYMONEK]

WK

How do you manage to go 7 hours without a visit to the boys room? Or do you do that in you PJs too as you exit the flight deck? Why someone would want to sit around in something they've just slept in is beyond me!

Unless that is, I was with a hot female F/O who's into Agent Provocateur with a slinky little baby doll neglige. Hat would be optional, depending on my fetish scale that day. ;)

[White Knight]

And that Harry, was exactly the reply I thought you'd muster up!

Do you fly with your hands covering the controls too? Just in case? Relax a little! It's a surprisingly easy job...

...unless you're a bit uptight of course!

[White Knight]

btw... Where can I get the PJ with the CREW sticker on the back? So I can be a right proper Muppet...

[fatbus]

Again with the drift!!!children please!

[jack schidt]

Wow, the summer heat must be getting to some as the level of effort to hang around here posting complete drivel is at an all time high in the above posts.

It's now a forum here in the ME to come and have a laugh more than find out anything of interest.

Off to check the cool aid in the shops is not out of stock as the boys above need to go buy some.

J

[harry the cod]

WK

I'm not going to bite again. I see enough brainless vitriol on youtube comments without succumbing to the same red mist. So, to avoid the popcorn munchers salivating over a rather pathetic tit for tat, here's my olive branch.

The whole purpose of my post was to highlight the fact that yes, the job nowadays of flying highly automated machinery is inherently straightforward. As you rightly say, it's mostly a 'surprisingly easy job'. However, because it's such a reliable system, we face the very real threat of complacency. My initial post was certainly not to portray a 'holier than thou' attitude. Far from it. It was to differentiate between those that have a plan A & B up their sleeve when the **** hits the fan. My experience with some individuals, and it's increasing, is that their exposure to the failure of systems and components is becoming rare, unlike some 20+ years ago where it was certainly more common. We learnt from those experiences as well as from war stories of far scarier events, narrated by bearded crusty Captains, older than our Dads! Our new generation pilots expect the plane to work as advertised. AOG's are virtually unheard of, autopilots can land without DH's, engines run for hundreds of hours without a single issue. Navigation is now accurate to within a few feet and all programmed before departure to allow us to sit, relaxed and feet up, as we watch the little white triangle follow a magenta line to our destiny. When these systems don't function as advertised, the startle factor can be immense and we've seen all too often recent events where even the most basic task, of flying the plane, is beyond their ability. As I said, AF447 is just one example.

And perhaps that is where I was leading with the PJ's. I've seen it several times on ULR's where there's an almost laissez Faire attitude to the job, handovers especially. Not always, but often enough for me to realise that if there was an emergency, there are some crew who would seriously struggle with what to do and where to go. When I get a depressurisation brief over Turkey that matey will turn around and head back to Dubai because "that's what it says on the flight plan", I realise that Situational Awareness is not equal amongst all men! What you wear on the FD has no bearing on your ability to do the job but it does have a powerful sub conscious influence on other people's perception on how THEY THINK you can do the job.

So, I apologies for name calling, most unprofessional. However, I will reserve the right to do so if we ever fly together. I don't want to be racing back from the bunk knowing that you're distracted from the emergency because you need to allow time to change!

....and feel free to call me an uptight p***k. ;)

Now, back to the thread?

Harry

[AllDaysAreSchoolDays]

"I don't want to be racing back from the bunk knowing that you're distracted from the emergency because you need to allow time to change!"

...and... what will you be wearing when you race back from the bunk in an emergency Harry???!

:D:O

[Trader]

Spot on Harry. Unfortunately, because of the reliability the younger generation whose first job was on a 737 never experienced failure or, more importantly, were never exposed to the decision making and knowledge to deal with failures/issues.

The industry's reponse--reduce training (and the costs) even further. EK want to go to 3 hour sim sessions-perfect example.

[nolimitholdem]

First of all, I would like to state that it quite something to see White Knight and harry the cod fighting on a PPRune thread. When two equally ardent defenders/admirers of EK can come to (virtual) blows, well...it truly must be the End Of Days.

I don't think anyone will have to worry about rushing back from the "CRC" in an EK aircraft during an emergency. With the asinine placement of FD crew at the back of the a/c, there's little chance of ever making it back to the flight deck during anything serious. Problem solved, EK-style! Oh how I love that I now have a proper OFCR compartment as God and Boeing intended...I digress...

I once had another captain on a ULR have a groan about the fact I was wearing the (EK-issued) blue sweater over my uniform, long after I had returned from the CRC. His gripe was that "in an emergency how was he supposed to know the rank of the FD crew"? So I calmly explained to him, that in case he couldn't see the epaulets, I would be the one sitting in the left seat, if that helped.

Seriously, you couldn't make up some of the stuff that goes on at EK.

[fatbus]

3 hr sims on the NAC course is actually an increase in training

[striker26]

Do EK pilots have anything better to do during cruise than rant and post essays on PPRUNE?!

Soon you guys will be focusing on how fast you'll get the wifi to post. (if you haven't used the on-board wifi already).

Hurry up with the BA/RYR/EZY apps already!

Some of you have been complaining for 5 years +, you should be ashamed at your planning skills. We'll see you guys in the "EK retirees: stay in DXB or go back home?" forum one day. :D


Sorry i meant to say "the 10% of EK pilots who rant". The other 45% are happy, and the other 45% knew what they were getting into and are content with being a part of a widebody ME airline operation.

[Praise Jebus]

Clearly all is well at EK if the brightest and smartest are discussing PJ's.....

[natops]

Why only wear PJ on the flight deck during ULR's?

Every flight is one big inflight rest exercise anyway.
Lets change into something more comfortable when we enter the aircraft and have pillows and blankets as a standard in the area where the coats are hanging.

And a little light outsight the cockpit saying "resting, do not disturb'.

N.:ok:

[Monarch Man]

Sorry i meant to say "the 10% of EK pilots who rant". The other 45% are happy, and the other 45% knew what they were getting into and are content with being a part of a widebody ME airline operation.

Here's the thing Striker, I don't believe your % right off the bat, more like 10% knew what they were getting into and are content with being part of a widebody ME airline, 45% who are actively looking to leave, and 45% who rant and are actively looking at leaving.
The PJ issue and comments on here are merely reflective of the disconnection between perceptions and reality, which dovetails nicely into the identical issues with training and its ethos and personnel.
A little recent example of a further erosion in the opinion I had for training and trainers per se went like this.
Operated aircraft to outstation, said aircraft not fitted with EFB's, so charts used. On leaving the aircraft the charts in use were book marked for ease of retrieval for the next crew, and placed in a conspicuous position so as to be obvious and within easy reach. All done in compliance with the inane and poorly worded/thought through company "leave the cockpit neat and tidy" policy.
Several days later I receive a snottagram from a "trainer" no less about how the cockpit was found in a non policy conforming fashion due to the charts being bookmarked, and how this had made it more challenging for him to "train" as the policy was not "strictly" adhered too :ugh::ugh::ugh:

A chap from Nazareth wept...

[Desert Camel]

I would say that most trainers I have met are not good teachers, they are not interested in passing on knowledge, tips, anecdotes, etc.... basically, teaching!

[Basic Service]

I would say that most trainers I have met are not good teachers, they are not interested in passing on knowledge, tips, anecdotes, etc.... basically, teaching!

A little recent example of a further erosion in the opinion I had for training and trainers per se went like this.

Understandable comments, but I would contest the comment that most trainers (that you have met) are not good teachers. Its unfair to tar everyone with the same brush because of a couple of bad experiences. MM, I agree with you that the snotogram was wholly inappropriate and can only say that there are dicks in every group of people. I hope you made him feel a prick by pointing out the intent on your part by return email. I have just been through a conversion and transfer of training qualification from 330 to 380 and can honestly say that I found the experience highly informative and rammed full of tips, techniques etc. As for the attitude and ability of my trainers, well I would say 95% were bloody good blokes who clearly enjoy imparting the knowledge with an eye on how much you can take in at a particular time. Not only that but they are decent people who have respect for their colleagues and co workers. So that leaves 5%.....Well they are in more dire need of a B***J*B that any other white man I know. ( Robin Williams..Good morning Vietnam..RIP )
This means that by far the majority of trainers are good blokes who are seriously undervalued by this airline. They are a necessary pain in your a**e as without them we could not function as an airline and we would all be out of a job.

I don't expect anyone to feel sorry for us, we don't HAVE to do it, but give the majority a break, we do it because we enjoy it and do our level best to do it well. If you are someone ( like the dick I flew with a few weeks back ) who thinks its ok to be on your mobile downwind at DXB when you are PF....... well guess what.... yup, you guessed it " all trainers are coc*s..........right?

[Monarch Man]

Basic, an absolutely perfect response, I wish there were more like you, it is however easy for me too moan from the sidelines, I accept that as well which is why I have an enormous amount of respect for the good hardworking trainers who are there to impart knowledge.

[5star]

+1.
Last few years in the sim have been a pleasure. Even excellent at times. Well done guys. More and more about training rather than on checking.
I'm :ok:

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

I agree +1 regards my experience in training.

If I fly an aircraft without EFB's, then if at an outstation, and if there is a chart folder, i leave said airports charts in the small folder. Far less wear and tear on the charts, than cramming them into the overloaded folders again and again.

I should get a Najm for that :roll eyes:


SyB :zzz::zzz:

[The Turtle]

I too leave the charts out

I even leave the DWC charts out at home on the freighter (try jamming those back into that overstuffed binder!! Not!)

I also must say the majority of the trainers are +gentlemen, a big picture lot.

[harry the cod]

MM

Hope you replied by telling him that it's all part of teaching resilience. What a Knob.

Otherwise agree that most of the trainers are really good and professional. The ethos in training has definitely improved since MM has taken over and it's now much, much harder for the bad trainers to hide.

Harry