Polish AVIATION VALLEY & PZL

[AW009]

AVIATION VALLEY: Please have a look in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxZNtjkPpSE)

Państwowe Zakłady Lotnicze (= [former] State owned Aviation Works (Plural; meaning a convolute of 20+ works) have been the main Polish aerospace manufacturer of the interwar period, with head quarters based in Warsaw and subsidiaries widely spread over Poland, functioning in 1928-1939.

The abbreviation which thereafter - from late 1950s - used as on aircraft brand and as a part of names of Several Polish state-owned aerospace manufacturers referring to traditions of the PZL, belonging to the Zjednoczenie Przemysłu Lotniczego i Silnikowego PZL - PZL Aircraft and Engine Industry Union.
After the fall of communism in Poland in 1989, those manufacturers became separate plants, still sharing the PZL name, but are the following completely independant companies transfered into private ownership by Polish Industrial Development Agency - IDA JSC - Agencja Rozwoju Przemysłu - ARP (By Polish state owned trust agency for privatizing):



Polskie Zaklady Lotnicze Sp.z.o.o. in Mielec (also "PZL Mielec"; Sikorsky - Lockheed-Martin, PZL MIELEC (http://www.pzlmielec.pl/))



EADS PZL Warszawa-Okecie" S.A. Warsaw (AIRBUS (EADS-PL) / CASA, EADS PZL > Home (http://www.pzl.eads.net/))



"PZL Swidnik" S.A. in Świdnik (LEONARDO HELICOPTERS, (PZL-?WIDNIK S.A. (http://www.pzl.swidnik.pl/pl/))



WSK "PZL-Rzeszów" S.A. in Rzeszów (UTC / Pratt & Whitney, Pratt&Whitney Rzeszów S.A. (http://www.pwrze.com/en/))



"PZL-Hydral S.A." Wroclaw ("PZL - Hydral" S.A. / Associates (http://www.sppl.org.pl/en/associates/pzl---hydral-sa/))



and Allstar PZL Glider Sp. z o.o. in Bielsko-Biala (SZD Gliders | Allstar PZL Glider Sp. z o. (http://szd.com.pl/)

which are the largest companies.

About 15 other smaller PZL-works, mainly former pure military-oriented maintenance and repair shops or plants became companies of the state owned PGZ-Holding (formerly BUMAR) and are for investors due to their sizes and partly poor infrastructure relatively uninteresting.

The custard pies are already privatized and are in strong hands.

I would be pleased if there is an echo to this new thread and please reply frankly which topics / questions might be worth a discussion. Also further facts to AVIATION VALLEY and PZL are always welcome.

Thank you,
AW009

[AW009]

Have just found in my Email the following link Sikorsky Accepts Prototype Turkish Utility Helicopter From PZL Mielec | Aero-News Network (http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=3d706240-48eb-4f23-b0df-de8e566acf20) having been send by a good friend (New Flight Test Facility Operational as First S-70i Black Hawk Helicopter Deliveries Approach (http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?prod=124349&shop=dae&modele=release)).

Leszek had been till 2010 test pilot of PZL Swidnik SA and you also will recognize him in the ‘autorotion videos’ (B412 video).

BTW: German Bundeswehr (WTD 61 at Manching) needs within 2018 also a new test bed, but for other purpose (see Page 3 – Page 5 in https://www.esg.de/fileadmin/spektrum/ESG-Spektrum06-1.pdf) It should become a Sikorsky H60 or a S70i with ‘high gear’ like FireHawk, because >90 cm of ground clearance are needed for the new system.

[hueyracer]

What can i say?

First of all, a company that changes its name every 12 months is nothing i can trust...

Second: PZL seem to be a nice eastern-block aircraft, but its way too expensive......for the price of one PZL, you can buy a Bell 412 EPI........why bother with a company that has close to no support and a 16 months delivery time when you can work with Bell, who sort you out within minutes after you called?

[9Aplus]

Nice...
Huey, can you provide some brand new IFR 412EP for $6 M per unit ;)

[ARRAKIS]

After reading the first post of this thread, imho, it contains to many errors.

Arrakis

[AW009]

@ArakisAfter reading the first post of this thread, imho, it contains to many errors. This thread shouldn't be a lecture, but a discussion.

So why do you not point out the concrete errors? Otherwise your post will be unsubstantiated.

e.g. The post of hueyracer is very substantiated and perhaps I know of this sad story a little bit longer than you do.

[AW009]

@huey: We know this behaviour of PZL S very well since AW became in charge 2010. We had to start at ADAM & EVE with them, meaning at a point we have reached already in 2005 with PZL. Same procedure with Finmeccanica und now again with LEONARDO. You must have patience like a donkey. But their products are goddamned good. Pricing is like a bazaar, you need at minimum three round of negotiations.[/URL][URL="http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/english-german/negotiations.html"] (http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/english-german/round.html)

[ARRAKIS]

I don't think we have ever met, so ad personam comments would be, hm, unsubstantiated.

Now, ad rem.
Aviation Valley is a cluster of over 100 entities, mostly companies, including PGZ through its subsidiary. PZLs or WSK PZLs were companies in different parts of the country. One should not mix those two things as you did.
5 companies bearing "PZL" name are today part of the cluster. 2 of them are on your list. 2 from the list were never part of the cluster. Rzeszów is no longer a "PZL" but a P&W.

About 15 other smaller PZL-works, mainly former pure military-oriented maintenance and repair shops or plants became companies of the state owned PGZ-Holding (formerly BUMAR) and are for investors due to their sizes and partly poor infrastructure relatively uninteresting.
This is not correct. There were attempts to build PGZ around PHO/Bumar Group but they failed. There was exactly 1 (one) PZL incorporated into PGZ and 4 WZLs (Military Aircraft Works) responsible for aircraft maintenance/overhauls/upgrades - or 3, if we take into account a merger before incorporation. With around 700 employees in two cases, they are neither the smallest nor the biggest companies around.
Because of some lessons learned the hard way - some of OEMs are very good teachers - I don't think there is anymore question of selling them.
Regarding investments, given the tenders underway or coming soon and taking into account offset requirements, there will be a lot.
If one belives the answer given a few weeks ago by Polish MoD to MPs questions, a contract for 50 H225M was signed a few months ago, but it will come into force only after finishing offset negotiations. Caracal was competing against S-70i and AW149.
Anyway, I still have some regrets that AW didn't make an offer based on NH90. Things would be more interesting.

Arrakis

[AW009]

@Arrakis:


Do you know the the Develeopment and Certification Standards of NH90?



It is FAA-FAR Part-29 Amdt 31 of 22nd of October, 1990 and are also Sec. 29.1355 and Sec. 29.1357 as writen down in the NAHEMA Contracts by the Customer Nations and NHI!



Do you know which endless series of troubles the Contract Nations with their NH90TTH, -MRH and NFH have and up to now none of this HC is really FOC?



Poland purchasing NH90? Never ever!



And AW / FINMECCANICA / LEONARDY, as well as SIKORSKY - LOCKHEED-MARTIN, especially in Polish Market have had and will have the "Corporate Governance Code" of "charity begins at home" or "the shirt is nearer than the coat".



Therefore, why to share a business in Poland with AH and Fokker by 32% versus 68% and this with a `very problematic and in principle already ancient helicopter?



Are you seriously claiming NH90 will be adequate to the HC of SIKORSKY in the Blackhawk class and higher and of LEONARDO in the AW 149 class and higher, really not?



The new Polish Gouvernment wanted to purchase in maximum 10 CARACAL and also 7 of them would have been enough "compensation" to keep the French Gouvernment in good temper for the purchase of French Submarines by Poland.



The H225 Crash in Norway and the grounding by AIBN - especially due to the facts of latest preliminary report - would be a further very good argument in the pending trial at Warsaw Court by claim of LEONARDO / AW / PZL S. against (old) Government and the old tender. The New Government (by PiS - Law and Justice Party) will have the last laugh.



By your PGZ-WZL argumentation you are right, I mixed it up. So your comments in your last post are substantiated and are very welcome.



But for AVIATION VALLEY and our discussion under economical and technical aspects and first of all under a view of aviations at present a 'Who is Who' seems to be more relevant than history.




Any news about the market introduction of AW009 by AAL USA Inc (https://www.aal-usa.com/ & https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/video/finmeccanicas-aw009-helicopter-adds-light-single-agustawestland-family)?



Do you see any chance for H665 TIGER being neither fish nor fowl in Poland, or is an "home made mix" of AH64D and T129 the better solution for Poland and the eastern hemisphere of EU & NATO?

[ARRAKIS]

or is an "home made mix" of AH64D and T129 the better solution
I think you just answered all my questions.

As I see no further sense or value in this thread, over and out.

Arrakis

[AW009]

@arrakis: goofy your answer ....