Robot Knucklehead

[tartare]

OK - I know it's the `Fail' but is it time to pack up and go home?

The AI 'Top Gun' that can beat the military's best | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3662656/The-AI-Gun-beat-military-s-best-Pilots-hail-aggresive-dynamic-software-losing-repeatedly.html)

[Tourist]

....and so it begins.....

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36650848


Not just the Mail

[Lima Juliet]

"Alpha, which was developed by a US team, also triumphed in simulation against a retired human fighter pilot."

Yup, I know a few retired human fighter pilots who would be unable to cope with today's 4th and 5th Gen fighter aircraft technology, sensor capabilities and weapons capabilities. It isn't just all about "stick and rudder" these days...

LJ

[ORAC]

Yup, I know a few retired human fighter pilots who would be unable to cope with today's 4th and 5th Gen fighter aircraft technology, sensor capabilities and weapons capabilities. It isn't just all about "stick and rudder" these days... It's exactly the first elements which a computer will excel at, it's the latter which were presumed to be the problem - along with sorting out friend from foe etc.

But I wouldn't send a human into a kill box with computer flown fighters. 50G if built for it, or max airframe limits - plus reaction times where they can decide and have the equivalent of a 2 week vacation before the human pilot blinks.....

It's coming. Man in the loop, perhaps as a swarm controller committing wingmen to the fight, but otherwise technology is dispacing "professions" in the same way it displaced the production line worker.

Imagine it as the hunter committing the two wolfhounds into the fight at the commit before the merge, then patting the on the head and leading them home afterwards.

Hmmm, question, who gets the kill?

[tartare]

I think you're right... you can see where it's heading.
"Tally ho" may eventually be a voice activated command issued by an F-35 pilot, which frees a robot wingman or two (or more) from echelon or line astern formation before the merge.
And "Fox One, Splash One" robotic replies in the pilot's headphones.
Actually, they'll probably be using directed energy weapons by then... Fox Five?
The traditional package certainly won't be what it used to be...

[abgd]

I've wondered for a while whether the F22 was cancelled as it was recognised that it would soon be superseded by an AI air superiority fighter. Perhaps there's a warehouse full of them already somewhere just biding their time. After all, they don't need to go and practise - or at least, only one of them does.

I imagine air superiority must be one of the easiest roles to automate without unduly risking civilian/friendly-fire casualties.

[tartare]

The plug in module for the F-22 cockpit has probably already been built and test flown by the Skunk works.
Full automation and control from section leader. ;)
I've mentioned it before, but if they could get cruise missiles to fly in formation nearly a decade ago, goodness knows what's being tested at Groom Lake right now.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Reading a bit more on this elsewhere, it seems that the ALPHA simulation may have been BVR, not WVR, and the retired Colonel might not have been a fighter pilot (or even a pilot at all). I can't vouch for the accuracy of that, but it would put quite a different complexion on things if true.

[tartare]

Can you post links?
I note his Linkedin profile mentions various Air Control postings, as well as being a Wing Commander (duty title which holds the rank of Colonel in the USAF) at Mountain Home.
So hard to tell if he has any fast jet experience as a pilot.
No mention of the BVR part, so would be interested to see where you picked that up from.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

The original Journal of Defense Management article is here: http://www.omicsgroup.org/journals/genetic-fuzzy-based-artificial-intelligence-for-unmanned-combat-aerialvehicle-control-in-simulated-air-combat-missions-2167-0374-1000144.pdf

Note the line, "The current problem is focused on purely beyond visual range air-to-air combat missions".

As far as I can tell, Colonel Lee's background is in GCI and AWACS. The various articles mentioned that he has "trained with thousands of fighter pilots", and "flown in a number of fighter aircraft". (My italics)

None of which is to denigrate the achievements of either the ALPHA team or Colonel Lee, but having someone who isn't a qualified pilot (however tactically knowledgeable) flying a BVR simulation is obviously very different to an experienced fighter pilot being defeated by AI in WVR ACM.

The "Computer Beats Top Gun in Dogfights" headlines are BS - at least for now.

[tartare]

Interesting.
Valid point on the BVR - the story is misleading; the natural assumption from reading it is that the software and pilot were involved in a visual range fight.
I wonder if the Colonel may have been the victim of a journo or sub-editor who beat up the story - makes it sexier still if the software's beaten a retired knuck.

[Tourist]

Does it really change the story?

From any configuration, there is a best option for either pilot. Does BVR/WVR really change that?
Surely if anything the speed of computers would give them a bigger advantage close in?

I'm asking rather than disputing.

[t43562]

In the future I think it will be men *with* computers against just computers so the real issue is whether the men add enough to be worth the trouble.

[Tourist]

It already is people through computers. The computer flies it now. We just ask the computer to deviate from current parameters.

[MACH2NUMBER]

If it goes in the way described, I am thankful that I had a good military flying career, hands on. Good luck to the new sanitised generation. Life is not what it was.

[cattletruck]

Reminds me of the chess wars between IBM engineers and Gary Kasperov (Weinstien).

It becomes a bit like solving cryptic crosswords, you just put yourself in the mind of the creator then it becomes trivially easy to defeat.

[t43562]

Chess is not really an AI problem in a way - the way the computers play isn't enormously useful outside chess (I'm sure I'll get into trouble for that generalisation). The current computers can beat the vast majority of people, however, and if you think about it, that's all an autopilot has to do. The big chess computers are expensive but you can build another in a year or few months whereas how easy is it to find chess grand masters?

In areas to do with reasoning and vision and so on, I get the impression that computers are still far less competitive than they are at chess and go etc. But the ability is shooting up by leaps and bounds in certain specific situations so I think you can expect much more complicated weapons perhaps and ones that are much easier to use optimally.

[Pontius Navigator]

Rather than autonomous wing men how about autonomous missiles?

Instead of flying close they fly attached to the mothership. Where the robot would be cleared to engage simply release the missile and leave it to engage and if more than one target and multiple missiles get them to allocate targets between them.

A problem with the autonomous wingman remains with bingo fuel whereas no problems with a one way mission for a missile. A parallel is with a homing torpedo; fire or drop it in a target area and it does the rest.