Western Michigan

[bow5]

Has anyone any experience of the JAA integrated course at Western Michigan University?

Cheers.

bow5 <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[frogone]

I was looking at them, but it's about $70,500 without accom! Which is about $13,000 extra! And the weather in Michigan isn't as good as Spain.

They look good. But not the best perhaps.

EIDW

[Hand Solo]

Well WMU does have nothing but the latest kit, a fleet of well powered Cessna 172s, Seneca 4s and 5s (air conditioning a real bonus!) and a couple of Extra 300Ls (don't know if you get to fly them though). The school is less than 5 years old and KBTL has 2 excellent runways. Radar coverage is excellent throughout the state, navaids and instrument approaches are available even at the smallest village airfields, just pitch up and play. Landing fees are non-existent except at the busiest commercial airfields. The weather is fine in summer, a bit like Europe with more extremes, but never too hot to fly. Winter is a bit different, you may not fly for three months, but at least you get to see what a contaminated runway is like. Additionally the cost of living is very low in the states, but Batlle Creek itself is a bit of a dull ghost town. Though you do get all the free internet you want, so plenty of PPRuNe!

[no sponsor]

Why should you go to WMU? They didn't allow self sponsored students almost from the word go. As soon as they had the BA contract in 98 they rescinded and refused to accept non-airline sponsored people. (Now tell me that was a great long term strategic move!!!).

I would suspect that since they haven't any long term experience with self-sponored people their service towards the needs of self-sponsored would be dubious, and in anycase they are 8 hrs away - what contacts, support etc can you get in WMU for flying jobs in Europe? You also have to bear in mind that towards the end of the course, you would want to start actively looking for work, and that can be tough in anycase, so why make it harder with the time difference, not to mention going for interviews etc.

Give it miss.

[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: no sponsor ]</p>

[bow5]

no sponsor,

I'm simply weighing up all my options, that's all. I've seen a couple of people say the price for the integrated course at WMU is a bit steep. If it's more than £35,000 (i.e with it being in the States) which it appears to be then in my book it's too much. I may as well train in the UK if I was going to be paying that much. If the price of having air conditioned aircraft pushes the course price up that much then I won't bother. Washing sweaty clothes is a far more preferable (and cheap <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> ) alternative!

I intend to instruct for at least a year after doing the ATPL so finding an airline job immediately after graduation is not that big a concern. That obviosuly depends on whether there is a sudden upturn in recruiting! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

All I want is the best course at the best price. In my opinion that doesn't include paying £50,000 to train as a pilot. Plenty of people do it for far less.

Cheers for the advice though. :)

[Hand Solo]

Hmm, I feel unusually defensive of my alma mater for some reason! WMUs first course was self sponsored, after that they went purely for airline sponsored cadets because they're worth more money (which you can't blame them for) and becuase their long term objective is to introduce the ab-initio concept to the USA, which they have limited success on so far. I'm not implying people should pay £35000 for air conditioning, but every time you shoot an ILS or touch and go in the UK the £ sign flashes up, and there's much to be said for the ability to do as many approaches as you like, whenever you like, at no extra cost. The question shouldn't really be 'how much' but 'what do I get for my money'. It's not a great idea to skimp on the start of your career if you can avoid it.

PS WMU is only 5hrs behind the UK, so you can easily get hold of people in Blighty during office hours, plus my phone bill was about 4 cents per minute to the UK anytime.

PPS I should also add that of the initial self-sponsored guys that completed the course, most found good airline jobs soon after completion.

[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: Hand Solo ]</p>

[bow5]

Hand Solo,

I guess from what you've posted that you've been to WMU. I don't suppose you have an e-mail address for them have you? I've tried both the address on their website and the address on the adverts in UK pilot mags and have got no response.

As for the training, I like the look of WMU. It looks very good and i'd love to study in a university atmosphere. Thing is, going to train in the US is supposed to be cheaper. The quality should not be any different (especially at a uni) but the lack of landing fees, fuel costs etc. should bring the course price down. Until WMU get in touch with me (not responding to e-mails doesn't make me want to hand over money to them) I can't quite understand how they can justify charging UK prices in the US.

If you have been there could you drop me an e-mail.

Cheers. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Hand Solo]

Well its been some time since I've been there, but if their email doesn't work then click on the website section marked IPTC and the email one of the IPTC instructors- they're generally an approachable bunch and should forward your email to the right place. On the subject of prices, I wasn't self-sponsored and so can't really judge the merits of schools in price terms. I can tell you that the quality of training there will be as good as in the UK with UK, or UK-trained instructors. It is a slight misnomer to describe the school as having a 'university' atmosphere. The flight school is part of the university and you will mix (sort of) with the American aviation students. The university itself, however, is 20 miles away in Kalamazoo and you won't be living on campus. The majority of your time would be spent in BTL with your UK course-mates. You would have full access to the uni facilities, though most people rarely used anything other than the first class sports facilities. That said, it's a great experience to live abroad, the locals are unbelievably friendly and welcoming (if a bit backwards), you do get to enjoy a bit of college culture and your social life is very much of your own making. Still can't fathom why they charge UK prices though.

[http]

What I want to know is why are 5 of the instructors suspended pending investigation? Anyone know?

[presbycusis]

Who knows, http, but if it's true then I'm sure if you were in their shoes you would not take kindly to someone speculating about it in a public forum. I presume you subscribe to the "innocent until proven guilty" form of justice?

[frogone]

<a href="http://www.wmich.edu/aviation/" target="_blank">http://www.wmich.edu/aviation/</a>

[shifatur]

howdy guys. .i feel its prudent to spend so much of money "not" on western mich...... i would have rather gone to embry-riddle or uni. of north dakota for my licenses and degree together. the tution is around us $ 25,000/year incl. accomodation and meal in und....

its about us $32,000 in embry-riddle.......and i am sure u r aware of the reputation both these schools have........ if i were to use all that money on flying+degree, i would rather go to one of these two schools....western mich.......ummm......nope!

capt. richie-rich

[aspinwing]

Why not have a look at UWO.

<a href="http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/deansoffice/acs/aviation/" target="_blank">UWO</a>

It is only in the lee of one Lake <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[bow5]

Cheers guys but the schools you've mentioned don't offer JAA training. (please correct me if i'm wrong) :)

Just to note, WMU haven't e-mailed me back yet.

Edited in the interests of being fair!! <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: bow5 ]</p>

[Groundloop]

The reason I heard that WMU charge apparent UK prices is that when the university set up the flight school they spent many millions of dollars on it (buildings, aircraft, simulators, staff, certification, etc). They want to recoup that money over a reasonable time, and cover costs and make a little profit. Hence the apparent high prices for a US training organisation.

This reason, by the way, was given to me by a WMU rep on their stand at a Flyer Exhibition last year when I asked him the same question.

[no sponsor]

Introducing the Ab-initio to the US is not new. Flight Safety did a CAA CAP509 at their school in Florida up until 1999. They charged £28,000 for the entire course. Unfortunately, with the JAA they pulled the plug on offering that course. (I was about to go on it)

My point regarding a school not allowing non-sponsored people onto a course is that you automatically place yourself in a high-risk category when you lose a airline contract, or the airlines pull-out (as they have now done). Therefore, you instantly set yourself up to fail as a business. You will notice that no school in Europe will do that, for that exact reason. Therefore, potentially WMU have a considerable exposure. What is clear, is that there are always self-sponsored guys through the good times and bad - ask Cabair or OATS.

I would say 5 hr time difference is a considerable one. I've worked in many countries around the world, and yes you can cope with getting up early/staying up late, but what do you do when they ask you to come in for a chat? Jump on a plane at the drop of a hat? This, I imagine Hand Solo, is not something you contended with as a airline cadet?

The reason to go to the US is the cheaper flight training costs. If WMU are charging the same as OATS, more than BAe or Cabair, but have the same, if not worse weather than Northern Europe, what is their unique value? Why should you spend all that dosh to have the same service as something closer to home?

I could understand going to flight-safety, as it was £10K cheaper at the time, but I honestly can't see what WMU gives you, that the others don't. (Unless you like flying across the pond).

[bow5]

To be fair to them, the equipment etc. looks excellent (but then most US based FTO's have very well equipped aircraft). The course also looks, content wise at least, far more comprehensive than anything that is available anywhere in the UK.

They have e-mailed me back!! <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> They have no marketing dept as they are a uni. Fair one.

I'm still waiting for a price quote though......

We'll wait and see what they have to offer. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[shifatur]

hey guys. .good to see wmu opening their mouth.....these guys can go quite for some "uncanny" reason and i have had the same problem before.....

anyway.....ya.....und, embry-riddle, uwm dont offer j.a.a courses.....however, i dont think its gonna be hard for u to convert into a j.a.a once u grab your f.a.a licenses.....

i am not in doubt about the qualification of wmu....theres this yearly flying competition between universities and wmu is one of the very best for the last couple of years.......

ummmm.......i still think und or embry-riddle is the place to go if u r investing so much of money.....if i could get hold of a student visa to the u.s, i would have made sure that embry-riddle daytona beach was my place!!

cheers. .captain rich

[BillyFish2]

bow5,

Check your e-mail - I've sent some WMU stuff I got from them just over a year ago: course outline, living in WMU + cost etc.. May be a bit out of date but worth a look.

[bow5]

Cheers BillyFish.

I'll check it out.

[Rogi]

BillyFisher,

could you send it to me too ? . .Thanks.

[bow5]

Jetjunckie,

You can e-mail WMU on either of these addresses:

[email protected]. [email protected]

They should work.

I got a bit ahead of myself earlier regarding the e-mail responses. Like I said, they have no marketing department (just one of the instructors and a part time secretary) because they are a University. E-mail them for up-to-date information, they are very helpful.

Bow5

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: bow5 ]</p>

[CaptainFlashheart]

I was curious about the topic raised by http about a week ago. I don’t think it’s a case of innocence or guilt here, a perfectly innocent question was raised about one of the world's most respected JAA schools. After all, if I was thinking of enrolling on a course at WMU I would certainly be interested to know what is going on there. Personally I was shocked to hear that five instructors were suspended, whether or not this is true, five members of a workforce do not get suspended for simply dropping crumbs in the crew room!!

[RW-1]

Heck, I didn't need JAA, but left WMU ... To full of themselves IMO. And steep $$$.

[presbycusis]

Woof woof

You're absolutely right, anyone thinking of going to WMU would be justified in wanting to know everything about the place. However, like I said in response to http's post reference this subject, this is a RUMOUR network and rumours have been known to ruin reputations and livelihoods. Speculating about this subject here will, if the rumour is untrue, probably ruin at least someone's reputation and possibly their employability - once tarnished in print no-one wants to touch you. Do you really want to be responsible for that? I sincerely hope not.

On the other hand, if the rumour is true, then once again, speculation on a public forum is not what (I hope) we all consider to be the correct course for absolute fairness and justice. Or are you just another beleiver in The Sun - as we all know, everything reported in that tabloid is absolutely true (yeah, right!)?

Anyone thinking of going to WMU is likely to be well aware of their web site which contains all the e-mail addresses of the instructors. Since these are published there one has to assume that they have no objection to potential customers asking questions in confidence which I am sure will be answered honestly, if confidentially.

Do yourself and everyone else a favour and stop spreading rumours about people and their livelihoods.

[gordonburns]

I think presbycusis has grabbed hold of the wrong end of the stick. I think Woofwoof's comments merely opened up http's question for comment. After all, its agreed WMU is a good school right? The whole idea of this network is a way for users . .to be able to share news with others within the same industry.

Could presbycusis honestly say that he/she has ever speculated about anything in their life? We all hear rumors everyday, some more serious than others, perhaps presbycusis should question his/her involvement on a website that evidently goes against his/her principles!

In a sweeping statement suggesting that rumors on this website can ruin a persons career, you should think twice about taking part in a forum that you most adamantly oppose!

[presbycusis]

Oh, for cryin' out loud!

I never said I was against speculation, but it does make me suspicious when someone by the nick of "http", on his first post and stating his location as Kandahar suddenly brings up this topic. Then Woof woof on his second post tries to raise it again. Now that I check, Flash Harry, you seem to be on only your second post too!

Now if that isn't a sign of mischief making at the least, malicious stirring at worse, thenI don't know what is! Apart from http, who says he/she is in Kandahar ( <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> ), you other two are in USA. Sorry, but I sense malicious intent - feel free to prove otherwise.

[ferg]

WMU was recommended to me by many people and airlines. Now I am having doubts. Could anyone please suggest a school in the USA that will offer a reputable JAR ATPL that WILL without any doubt be recognised in Europe by the CAA?

DeltaConnectionAccademy was also recommended but then I heard that it wasn't fully JAR approved.

Who can we trust?

[caaflyr]

Delta Connection Academy in Sanford, FL operates its JAA courses through a partnership with Atlantic Flight Training in Coventry. The CAA has approved this scheme though it is very new with most approvals only dating back to last fall.
Patrick Murphy
Director of Training
Delta Connection Academy

[BillieBob]

ferg,

Don't be misled by caaflyer. Delta Connection does not 'operate its JAA courses through a partnership with Atlantic Flight Training in Coventry', it acts only as a sub-contractor. There is a significant difference in that the CAA has not given any sort of approval to Delta Connection in its own right and it can only operate (for JAA purposes) under the direction and supervision of the Head of Training of Atlantic Flight Training at Coventry. This is why you see no reference to Delta Connection (or Comair) on the CAA website.

Were you to choose to go to Sanford, you would not be enrolled as a student of Delta Connection but as a student of Atlantic Flight Training. You may not think that the distinction is important, since you would still gain a JAA licence, but, as a paying customer, you should at least be aware of it. There is no implied suggestion that Delta Connection is anything other than a perfectly splendid school, merely that they appear to misunderstand their position in the great JAA scheme of things.

[Meeb]

The issue of JAR training outside of the JAA member states is a real thorny issue, and pretty hard for a newbie to understand.

BillieBob, what you say is not entirely correct. If a school in the USA, or anywhere for that matter, wants to act as a 'sub-contractor' for JAR training, they still need approval to conduct such training. This involves all intructors to be trained and tested by an approved CAA examiner (if under CAA juristiction), and the premises, airfield etc have to be approved. Its all a far cry from the early days of any shabby little school in the USA setting up CAA PPL training, JAR really have a lid on this, and quite right too.

WMU had a good reputation, employed very competant UK instructors who passed on the knowledge of JAR training to their American colleagues. No reason to see that has changed, although all the Brit instructors have long gone!

[tarbaby]

Pressby wants it both ways; if it is a rumour then don't speculate, if it is not then don't talk about it. It is not a rumour, it definitely was true, 5 flying instructors were suspended. A definitive explanation can be found with a search for WMU, look for Wrinkled Plum's original posting 06/28/2002 with explanation by Shaft.ted. WMU certainly wasn't worried about their employees' reputations, rumour was good enough.
Now this is speculation; as there are no new JAA courses ay WMU there must be some very expensive QFIs sitting around doing very little. This situation will not last long-look for more contracts not being renewed at the end of June. I would imagine that the Ground Instructors (what's left of them)would also be seeing the writing on the wall.
Battle Creek put a lot of money into IPTC. WMU put very little. The enormity of what was done to the IPTC program by WMU has only now just filtered thru to to the folks of that town.

[blue heron]

Bow 5,

I have just finished the ab initio course at WMU, cannot recommend it highly enough. Awesome experience, great flying, great equipment and good instruction. Most of the course past all their JAA theory first time. You return to England after 12 months to do your IR at Bristol Flying centre, again no complaints with them, the changes between flying in the US and UK are not very dramatic as you are well prepared in the US.

Overall if WMU goes ahead with the new JAA course they are advertising in flight then you should have no worries. I now have a great year of memories!

[gamekeeper]

I recently completed my ab initio course at WMU too.

Were we really at the same place??!!

[tarbaby]

Have recently heard that WMU has no JAA students, that the CFI is leaving (no work) and annual contracts are not being renewed.
Cvs from instructors have been seen at various schools. Seems a pity. From all accounts this was a great training establishment with very inept management.

[machonepointone]

Tarbaby, you almost had it right. Yes the CFI is leaving, at the end of June I believe which is the end of the contract year. There will still be two CAA licenced instructors plus the Head of Training, although whatr training he will be head of is a mystery to me. I heard that the last JAA students have left already. The former Head of Training is also in the process of leaving.

WMU, or IPTC as the JAA element of the college used to be called, was a fun place to be and it had a huge potential. Unfortunately a combination of poor management, university politics and unsubstantiated accusations of racism have caused the downward and probably terminal dive.

[gear lever]

To add to whats already been stated.....The most senior person in the IPTC (advisor to the Dean) has resigned,the CFI is leaving ,the head of the synthetic flight training dept has resigned,4 JAA flight instructors and 2 sim instructors have been fired as well as some FAA flight instructors and admin staff.
Does it look good for the future?
Glad I finished when I did though no complaints about the instruction(first class) facilities and aircraft.BA ,Aer Lingus ,Emirates and EPST can't all be wrong?
From what I've heard beats spots off Oxford and is better than Jerez(though their weather is better). :O

[atrpilot]

Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University are starting a new program for first officer candidates (focused on regional jets)....it is almost up and running from what I hear, based in Sunny St. Augustine, Florida. AWESOME flying!! Includes CRM/LOFT, level D sim..etc, mainly focused on USA regional jet operators.

If they start JAA they will take the WORLD by storm!!!! They have over 100 brand new aircraft, simulators....and very professional people.

:cool: