View Full Version : EK and Snoring
FFFrentit
6th Jun 2016, 10:22
I've heard some rather disturbing stories about the consequences of telling the EK clinic that one snores.
Anybody had personal experience of this and would you mind sharing your story?
I flew with a guy who had been to the clinic in Al Ain.
He was forced to wear a positive pressure mask when sleeping. This thing records its time in use and you need to submit the records monthly. He was a very unhappy camper.
you DO NOT want to go down that path. Do your medical, keep your mouth shut and get on with your life.
Trouble is JAYTO, keeping your mouth shut may not be enough. Google STOP BANG. If you meet the criteria the Clinic may send you to Al Ain.
jack schidt
6th Jun 2016, 11:50
The medical is not an insanity check up (despite the Germanwings incident). The least you say or own up to and the quicker you are out of the doctors room = all the better for you. You passed and are certified for another year, no more, no less, desired outcome achieved.
Why create problems for yourself if there is no physical evidence being seen in a medical? I am pretty certain that everyone snores at sometime (especially after a few Vimtos), be sensible, why create doubt in a doctors mind? Unless a condition is really impacting your health to fly, then do what you need to do to pass the medical.
Safe flying and snore free nights. Disclaimer, I did the sleep apnoea test and passed, it's scaremongering and a waste of 11k AED for the test.
CAYNINE
6th Jun 2016, 12:08
GCAA document after Google search will show you the questionnaire relating to STOP BANG assessment as SOPS mentioned. Choose how you want to answer those questions is your choice.
Rotating Bacon
6th Jun 2016, 13:00
don't forget the clinic is not there to help you its there to spy on you and intimidate you
Kapitanleutnant
6th Jun 2016, 13:47
As one who went thru this bullsh*t....
Everything above is true. The doctors are absolutely your enemy when it comes to this stuff. Tell them NOTHING! It almost seems they're looking for a reason to ground you as if they have an internal competition for that... Or who can give out the most referrals in a month or some crap like that... For the most insignificant issue.
There used to be a few "good ones" to go to who were big picture but they've been swallowed by the EK machine and run scared from fleet IMO.
DO NOT EVER, EVER USE THE WORD SNORE AT THE EK CLINIC!! Kiss of death and career.
In my 7 plus years, I had to take 4 sleep studies. And was required to wear this device my last year at Slave Ship Airlines, called a cpap machine 85%of the time while at EK.... It was required by GCAA. As someone says, the sleep is recorded on an SD card and you are required to send this in to sleep study doctor for analysis. Total and complete PITA!
I know one longtime FO at SS Airlines who has been doing this for a number of years.
Tell them at your own peril...
So you have to take this thing on your overnights I assume?
Mister Warning
6th Jun 2016, 14:20
Is it approved for use in the flight deck?
InnocentBystander
6th Jun 2016, 16:54
Everything above is true. The doctors are absolutely your enemy when it comes to this stuff. Tell them NOTHING! It almost seems they're looking for a reason to ground you as if they have an internal competition for that... Or who can give out the most referrals in a month or some crap like that... For the most insignificant issue
One of the problems for the doctors is that they're not allowed to sign people SKF over a certain threshold of days/year. So a doctor has no choice but to find "something" to ground you if they sense that you're not fit to fly. And a lot of pilots are very fatigued, though some might not want to admit it. It's all internal politics between Fleet and EG Medical with the doctors and pilots being the pawns in between... Most doctors hired within the last five years resigned within a year of hiring. The number of AME's within EK as not increased over the last eight years or so while the numbers of pilots has doubled...
Kapitanleutnant
6th Jun 2016, 17:43
All I can say to you gents is that you must wear it 85% of your life... If there's an outlet in the CRC, I suppose you could use it there as well if needed.
Innocent is spot on.... The doctors went head to head with Fleet back in about 2010 when there was an increasing number of SKF calls and fleet thought they could override the doctors and tried to do so. Well, the doctors retaliated by looking for ANYTHING as a reason to ground pilots in a temporary manner.... not so much to help the pilot per se but rather to show they ultimately controlled the pilots roster and availability... and I recall being caught in the middle of that.
I'm sure it's still going on.
The ONLY thing better now with EG Medical is that Nomi has left the building!!
TwinJock
7th Jun 2016, 04:27
All I can say to you gents is that you must wear it 85% of your life... If there's an outlet in the CRC, I suppose you could use it there as well if needed.
A few things happen in the CRC that we do not speak about, but from our esteemed manuals :
"Units must not be connected to any of the aircraft power sockets"
As long as you do not do a Honeyball Lecter on me in the CRC, feel free to wear it........
givemewings
9th Jun 2016, 11:29
Interesting.
Pax wanting to use a CPAP must have a letter/doctor's approval and carry batteries to last the flight. Cannot use the aircraft power outlets either (it's in the OM-E if anyone is curious)
So is the clinic giving letters to the guys who are supposed to use them for them to carry it onboard? And how is the other guy supposed to sleep? Some of those things are noisy af...
Count von Altibar
9th Jun 2016, 22:43
Flip me all this beggars beilief. They really do try and control most aspects of your life. Better to stay quiet at your medical than suffer this!
burnable gomi
11th Jun 2016, 06:53
Excuse the perhaps dumb questions but: What's wrong with snoring and how does it effect a person's fitness to fly?
alwayzinit
11th Jun 2016, 07:25
"Do you snore?"
No idea I am asleep!
Kapitanleutnant
11th Jun 2016, 08:10
Just to give all an idea of how serious they take the snoring nonsense.... and I will ad this caveat... it was when Nomi was there at the clinic, and he is the single individual who basically started the "snoring" mania issues with pilots.
I had talked to a colleague who told me he went to the EK clinic dentist who said he should get a "mandibular device" e.g. something to help him sleep better. This thing brings out your lower jawbone so as to not obstruct airway when sleeping. Sounded good for me so a few months later (or longer) I made appt with same dentist
Mentioned to HER(the lass) all he above and she said while I was sitting in the chair at HER office, "OK, I'll be right back". I waited about 5 minutes and she came back and reported this: "I went to ask Dr. Nomi about this and he says you'll need to see your doctor immediately about this and take a sleep study test".
Needless to say I was absolutely livid that SHE mentioned my confidential (or what is in all First World Western Societies) symptoms to anyone else... and especially Nomi! I told her in absolute no uncertain terms she had no right to tell anyone else of my conversation with.
Longer story short... I received to cordial letters from Nomi stating I was required to see my doctor. I begrudgingly did and the doctor rolled his eyes and I further said I believe my doctor/patient privilege was breached etc. He agreed and I asked him to write in his report that very statement and the doctor mentioned it would keep Nomi quiet on this one.... BUT I'D HAVE TO GO GET A SLEEP TEST!.
I was not happy, but there was nothing I could really do. I thought about writing an official complaint against the female (Irish or Scottish) dentist but like all EK pilots, was just simply too tired to follow thru on it. Rather spend my few days off sleeping!!
For those that take that sleep study test: If you have 5 or less AHI (apno-hypopnic incidents" for the night, you pass the test. Also remember, if diagnosed with "Mild sleep apnea", there is no treatment and you're fine and don' need to do anything. Don't let them tell you otherwise.
Kap
Ex Slave Ship Airlines
White Knight
11th Jun 2016, 09:54
What's wrong with snoring and how does it effect a person's fitness to fly?
As one who has been diagnosed with Sleep Apnoea when the whole thing kicked off I will try and put a few rumours to bed here!
At first, I too was outraged by the idea that I may have a sleeping problem - having casually mentioned to one of our Docs that I'd been doing a lot of night turns and was tired. (Before the Gnome Doc was here I believe). I was sent off for a sleep test at the American Hospital and lo and behold I apparently 'woke up' 135 times in the six hours sleep I managed (wired up like a Christmas Tree); the thing is though I wasn't aware that I had woken - basically my airway was closing off because of snoring and after 30 to 40 seconds of NO breathing the body wakes itself up to get a bit of the good old O2... You'll find that the O2 SATS drop into the mid 80% range and that isn't good.
I went back to the lab for a second test, this time with a CPAP machine, and ended up having the best night's sleep in ages!!! I now use a CPAP machine every night that I can - and if I don't use I definitely feel tireder the next day.
To satisfy GCAA Medical requirements I'm supposed to comply with using it 80 - 85% of the time! I see a pulmonologist every 6 months so he can check the data. It sounds like a drag but I combine the visit with a gym/pool trip to Pharoahs' nearby...
I DON'T use it in the CRC... But I do carry it on layovers and use it in the hotel...
Sleep Apnoea has a strong causal link to cardiac disease and other ailments! The FAA are rumoured to be putting all 'large/obese' pilots through sleep tests too!
From my POV? If you have Sleep Apnoea then do yourself (and family) a favour by getting it dealt with... You'll feel better and live longer...
Kapitanleutnant
11th Jun 2016, 09:57
I agree completely White Knight!
I just have a bad taste in my mouth as to "how" it was done in my particular case.
Yes, the FAA is starting to give out the sleep tests as well....
K
White Knight
11th Jun 2016, 12:38
As to the 'how' KL I do agree that it was underhand and in breach of patient confidentiality...
Sadly this is more and more the 'norm' here these days!
Sheikh Your Bootie
12th Jun 2016, 10:03
The Gnome is history. Now the docs are trying to get the BMI thing removed as well, no actual benefit to the company. That may take a while.
The Doc remarked that most of the guys that are more often ill, or in the clinic are the skinnies, and those doing more extreme sports.
Medicals, at least at EK, be truthful, but always be economical with what you say, always.
SyB :zzz::zzz:
https://www.flyingmedicine.uk
Just a heads up for anyone heading back to the UK. He also is on the medical board for a Big Airline.
GMC1500
21st Jan 2018, 13:38
The gnome suspended a friend of mine's medical, he eventually got fired, now working at Qatar.
The Gnome caused we a world of hurt, as it turned out for no reason....but he did me a favour.....he filled my bucket full of s@@t
Odins Raven
21st Jan 2018, 14:54
Jesus wept... the ‘meet the team’ page of the website looks like a Facebook selfie collection he randomly picked from some teen girl group.
Maybe they Service iPhone cameras too, and help people set up their own blogs?
donpizmeov
21st Jan 2018, 15:33
What a horrible little man.
brakedwell
21st Jan 2018, 15:48
What about farting, is that OK? Not on the flight deck of course :(
fantom
21st Jan 2018, 16:18
Is a little snoring ok?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Little_Snoring
Broomstick Flier
21st Jan 2018, 16:44
The medical is not an insanity check up (despite the Germanwings incident). The least you say or own up to and the quicker you are out of the doctors room = all the better for you. You passed and are certified for another year, no more, no less, desired outcome achieved.
Don't press RECALL and you will have an uneventful flight :O
pilotguy1222
21st Jan 2018, 17:33
https://www.flyingmedicine.uk
Just a heads up for anyone heading back to the UK. He also is on the medical board for a Big Airline.
Looking at "The Team" tells me all I need to know about this little man.
Also, do NOT ever mention 'headache' at the clinic either. If they can't identify what is causing the headache, you are grounded. Fix it yourself or go to a private clinic.
harry the cod
21st Jan 2018, 20:00
Both him and his wife are second generation Brits, both their parents originally from India. Not content with their British passports, Mrs gnome made four visits to the US for extended stays, each one resulting in a return home +1. Obviously, a UK only passport is not good enough for their little darlings.
The first (and last) time that I met his wife, she admitted she thought she needed a passport to visit Scotland. She lived in Watford at the time! And no, that's not a joke.
He himself is a conniving, devious and downright untrustworthy individual with the ethics of a sleaze bag. He's a small man with a severely over inflated ego and made the life of one of my colleagues very difficult, as he did for several of our pilots. The 'C' word sums up perfectly this despicable little individual. :mad:
Harry
Came across him once doing my medical a few years back. He was concerned about my weight gain (half a stone in three years, BMI 26.7) and went on asking me, with a concerned look, if I knew that about 100.000 people in the UK dies of fat related diseases every year!
Before realizing he was dead serious I replied in a country of ~60-70 million people statistically half a million will die yearly. Obviously the vast majority of them are slim so good thing I’m a little chubby then!
He didn’t appreciate my math...
The Outlaw
22nd Jan 2018, 01:39
Both him and his wife are second generation Brits, both their parents originally from India. Not content with their British passports, Mrs gnome made four visits to the US for extended stays, each one resulting in a return home +1. Obviously, a UK only passport is not good enough for their little darlings.
The first (and last) time that I met his wife, she admitted she thought she needed a passport to visit Scotland. She lived in Watford at the time! And no, that's not a joke.
He himself is a conniving, devious and downright untrustworthy individual with the ethics of a sleaze bag. He's a small man with a severely over inflated ego and made the life of one of my colleagues very difficult, as he did for several of our pilots. The 'C' word sums up perfectly this despicable little individual. :mad:
Harry
Say what you mean Harry.
This is not your normal defense of the company. I think a few of us are in shock!
However a look at the link https://www.flyingmedicine.uk/ instantly gives a pretty questionable impression of the staff.
Wow, Harry! What can I say?
ClassCbird
22nd Jan 2018, 09:14
Oh my God, now i have seen it all. What an utterly unprofessional looking website. Is this for real?
fatbus
22nd Jan 2018, 09:30
CC ,
Have you ever had dealings with this Dr.? I doubt you have !
The Outlaw
22nd Jan 2018, 09:38
Oh my God, now i have seen it all. What an utterly unprofessional looking website. Is this for real?
Yep...Av med,colagen, botox and implants.
All for one low price.
Also looks like you have to be some sort of plastic fantastic to work there.:rolleyes:
ClassCbird
22nd Jan 2018, 09:54
Yup :uhoh:
Schnowzer
23rd Jan 2018, 02:35
Seems we should take he credit, he won a prize for experimenting on EK pilots. Seemed like a competent doctor at the start, who let his ambition and thirst for fame take over his life.
The Outlaw
23rd Jan 2018, 05:33
Seems we should take he credit, he won a prize for experimenting on EK pilots. Seemed like a competent doctor at the start, who let his ambition and thirst for fame take over his life.
...any vanity
I Claudius
23rd Jan 2018, 10:32
Well, he cost me an extra six months, when it came to getting my medical back.
He even had the the gall to tell me over the phone, that there was NO chance that I would ever get my Middle East medical back. I quietly slipped away from his “care” and went about arming myself for the battle, changed doctors and the rest is history. The nome was to be sitting on my medical review board,,, I had him removed!
A couple of years ago, I was congratulated, by a senior AME, for pushing my own case through the board, as it had brought the local authority up to date, with the major ones overseas.
This lead to another pilot getting his medical back, who had tried, six to twelve months before me.
I personally know two of the guys that the nome sent to the US, for “ rehabilitation”.
Both left, one was sent back after it was found that the elevated lipids, were up due the medication, not alcohol. The other was proven clear, by another Clinic.
Then there is the Al Ain connection, with the sleep apnea testing. The BMI bull.
I understand that it was fleet who had him pack his bags, just over two years ago.
After how much damage had been done?
He should be in jail.
Well, he cost me an extra six months, when it came to getting my medical back.
He even had the the gall to tell me over the phone, that there was NO chance that I would ever get my Middle East medical back. I quietly slipped away from his “care” and went about arming myself for the battle, changed doctors and the rest is history. The nome was to be sitting on my medical review board,,, I had him removed!
A couple of years ago, I was congratulated, by a senior AME, for pushing my own case through the board, as it had brought the local authority up to date, with the major ones overseas.
This lead to another pilot getting his medical back, who had tried, six to twelve months before me.
I personally know two of the guys that the nome sent to the US, for “ rehabilitation”.
Both left, one was sent back after it was found that the elevated lipids, were up due the medication, not alcohol. The other was proven clear, by another Clinic.
Then there is the Al Ain connection, with the sleep apnea testing. The BMI bull.
I understand that it was fleet who had him pack his bags, just over two years ago.
After how much damage had been done?
He should be in jail.
Sent you a PM
Odins Raven
24th Jan 2018, 07:51
Seems we should take he credit, he won a prize for experimenting on EK pilots. Seemed like a competent doctor at the start, who let his ambition and thirst for fame take over his life.
The thing is, that pretty much sums up Dubai in one sentence. It’s the place where a ‘nobody’ can go to, spout some BS and come home a lot richer having ruined other people’s lives. He’s only one of many.
MacSheikh
24th Jan 2018, 20:32
Age 50 plus, BMI 30 plus, neck size 43 cm plus = automatic sleep apnea testing
Is this new? I've ticked the boxes for several years and not had to do the test.
I Claudius
24th Jan 2018, 22:06
Is this new? I've ticked the boxes for several years and not had to do the test.
No. See a senior AME or put a complaint in.
It looks like the racket continues!
Dan_Brown
24th Jan 2018, 22:25
I snore real loud so I'm told. However when I sleep in a chair i.e., sitting up I very seldom snore.
If you nod off on the flight deck and snore, it should keep your colleague awake. In these times of extreme fatigue due to over work, this has to be safety enhancing surely.
I've woken up years ago in the cockpit and found my two colloques sound asleep. Now if there had been a real loud snorer among the 3 of us, this wouldn't have happened. :}
Exit Strategy
24th Jan 2018, 23:42
If you snore, can you just admit to it and go out medically with loss of licence?
Neektu
25th Jan 2018, 10:06
If you snore, can you just admit to it and go out medically with loss of licence?
That’s the catch: they don’t revoke your license on account of snoring. Snoring is not the problem, but the durantion of the apneas. They will try to fix it with the Cpap and that means ground duties till the apnea goes below the mild range.