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ranso
23rd May 2016, 08:19
I,m looking to buy a single turbine to use in the UK for pleasure/business having read lot's of comments and tried a MD500, first flew 206's but old ones, should I be looking at EC120?

Budget around £800K

Some of you guys will have gone through this process so any useful info would be appreciated?

autobarnacle
23rd May 2016, 10:57
fohnwind

Very well said. The AS350 can be pricey but if you are willing to accept an older airframe then you can get one in your budget for initial purchase. Over time just spend a little on getting new interior.

nellycopter
23rd May 2016, 11:00
You wouldn't be disappointed with the 120 if just pottering about,
The lack of power comes from people loading it up to the max.....
It's a great machine .... And cheaper to maintain than a 44 ..... Unless you need a new engine or other big lump.....

maddmatt
23rd May 2016, 11:37
120 very easy to hot start and even easier to over torque :-)

500e
23rd May 2016, 11:47
So apart from cramped in back a 500 seems to be the way to go fast, maneuverable, no worse than others if you have major problem, still made, parts are getting better as well :E

catseye
23rd May 2016, 11:50
500c beats anything else hands down :D

500e
23rd May 2016, 12:58
Agree in the back but never had need to walk around the front end once moving

FLY 7
23rd May 2016, 13:39
A lot depends on your intended usage (noted that this is your first post):

- How many hours pa?
- Your Licence qualifications/experience?
- How many passengers normally carried?
- Luggage/cargo capacity?
- Average trip - range/speed requirements?
- Operating budget? - purchase price is only the beginning!
- Private/commercial/training/utility/SFH?
- Etc, etc.

Interestingly, I bought an EN480B six years ago, and I constantly look at EC120s/350s/MD500s etc, wondering if they would do a better job.

And, of course, in some areas they would. But, for my requirements, the EN480B does pretty much everything I need - for a lot less money.

Loki696
23rd May 2016, 16:37
The hot starts I have seen, are from pilots starting the machine in their own way and not according to the FLM......
The same for overtorques loading the machine up and not respecting the limits

maddmatt
23rd May 2016, 17:39
Maybe inexperience but you have to have your wits as it is very easy to over torque the 120, just needs a momentary lapse of concentration and bang you are over

victor papa
23rd May 2016, 18:42
Maybe inexperience but you have to have your wits as it is very easy to over torque the 120, just needs a momentary lapse of concentration and bang you are over

Is this on a 120 or your experience flying different 120's? We have 2 flying 6-8hrs everyday and we have never had a hotstart despite having to crank often before start or near a overtorque at sea level up to 35 degrees flying 4 pax with 1.5hrs fuel in the last year-we flew 1200hrs/machine since Sept last year and only issue we had was a mgb change 800hrs prematurely on the older machine after she stood for 4 yrs 169hrs ago.

So if a 120 you have a rigging/torque calibration issue. If you have hot starts you also have rigging/FCU issue-do you have the white line marked on the throttle at 22degrees N1 on the FCU for the start?

Out of 8 120's we know we have had no overtorque or hot start the last 8 yrs with great reliability and following Airbus maint almost no downtime except for 500hr/2yr 5 days and 12yrs 12-15wks with respray.

Yes engine 15yr a killer but we bought a loaner engine and thus will overhaul instead off service exchange which is much cheaper and we get 3000hr/15yr eng back and then shes a dream to operate.

Never had power issues but then we respect shes a 1.8tonner with a biiigggg boot, can take loads off fuel and 4 pax comfortably but as a 1.8tonner not all at once!

John R81
23rd May 2016, 19:19
Best advice is to think carefully about what you want the machine for, then go and ride in anything still on the list.


I am with VP. Owned and operated 120s in the UK now for just under 10 years. One hot start - a SFH who treated it like a Jet Ranger. Cheaper to keep in the air than an R44 (I ran one alongside for a while, and I have the invoices to prove that the 120 is cheaper to maintain daily). Yes, there are costs for engine overhaul but any turbine will have that (according to its own schedule).


All the above says is; the 120 is the right machine for me. It does not make it the right machine for you. Anyway, your location just says "UK" but if you are anywhere near Redhill then PM me.

ranso
23rd May 2016, 19:33
I,m located Warwickshire Uk, looking to fly with one to four passengers would after more experience look to fly into France etc.

Total time only 200hrs.

Ec120 looking like a good bet???

krypton_john
23rd May 2016, 20:04
I would have said EN480B every time but it's not good for four pax (can do in theory but not really good enough).

Same problem for MD500. Plus neither of the above have much baggage space.

That leaves R66, B206 and EC120.

AS350 is overkill and a lot more expensive to own.

Of R66, B206 and EC120 the latter would be by far the most comfortable especially for the passengers. Not much room for the centre passenger in the other two.

But if you want an easy life with lower costs and straight forward maintenance and parts then R66 or B206. The latter has the best safety record.

victor papa
23rd May 2016, 20:15
John R81 looks like we have same experience.

We started with 1 120 and within 3mths another and due the money these 2 machines made flying the hrs they do at the reliability they do we now removed 206's and 44's as 120 more reliable and cheaper over 1200hr period by far and that included 12yrs. Actually 120's payed for a 130 which off course is just a beast. Love the 350 too but we noise sensitive so 120 was a big step and risk with all the negative vibes surrounding the type but it changed our whole business and opened many eyes once we operated her and as said as a 1.8tonner not expecting anything more. Passengers love them

Hughes500
23rd May 2016, 21:30
No surprises on what machine I would go for but I think everyone is missing a stretched 341/342. way better than a 120 the speed of a 500 with baggage. Looks the business and is well supported by people like MW helicopters at Stapleford

krypton_john
23rd May 2016, 22:08
Victor Papa and JohnR81 - interesting observations. Do you think your favourable experiences with the 120 would translate well to a private owner and less than say, 100 hrs per year?

nigelh
23rd May 2016, 22:25
Some very good advice here . I have owned all of the types mentioned ( apart from Robbo,s or 120 ) and agree with all said , but would add that the 206 is on a steep downward slope re price . ( look at 505 thread !) . If it were me I would buy a very cheap 206 , or better still sfh one and put an order in for a 505 now . And if you go EC or AS be aware of engine costs as turbomeca can charge like a wounded Rhino !! Very good engines but go PBH if you possibly can . Enstrom lovely and easy for a beginner but slow slow slow !!!!

Hedski
23rd May 2016, 23:04
ranso,

I'm local to you some of the time flying wise so if you want to chat about options send a PM.

H

jellycopter
23rd May 2016, 23:15
NigeH
I'd have thought you'd try and persuade him of the merits of an N reg A109 A model!

JJ

Finnrotor.com
23rd May 2016, 23:51
or better still sfh one and put an order in for a 505 now . And if you go EC or AS be aware of engine costs as turbomeca can charge like a wounded Rhino !!
Which engine will a 505 have? Dammit, just can't remember...:}

I'm sure they are as good in charging, no matter if it's their engine in a 120 or 505. Might be even better with 505's as they must've sold their engines cheap to get a contract with Bell. TM must be thinking 505 will sell like cupcakes and then it's just a waiting game to bump up the prices for individual clients once first machines are up to TBO...:E At that point there will probably be few hundred machines out there without much other options but to pay whatever TM happens to ask...

krypton_john
24th May 2016, 04:16
FinnRotor - the 505 has TM Arrius.

But the very exciting proposition is pay by the hour based engine and aircraft maintenance supported by Bell and Turbomeca - they are bandying around the $300/hr number which would be amazing.

pants on fire...
24th May 2016, 08:12
With an £800K budget, why just stick to singles. In today's market for that kind of money you should be able to get either 5 x EC225's, 12 x AS332L, 3 x 139 or an S92. :)

Sorry, couldn't resist.

John R81
24th May 2016, 08:26
Krypton John


My experience is that the running costs for an EC120 are cheaper than for an R44. If you have sole use & <100 hr then the cost per hour will be high due to the spread of fixed costs (insurance) and time-based maintenance. You need to do the maths, but an ex-training school R44 with fewer hours remaining to rebuild, but plenty of calendar time remaining, could be a cost-efficient option (only 4 seats).


If you want to do "cheap" (relative thing, cheap) then join a club and self-fly-hire.


For longer distances with passenger the 120 is fantastic. I have flown the length of UK & back next day with 4 + luggage, and over to France several times with 5 (light luggage). No complaints from any of the passengers as the cabin space is fantastic (not cramped with great views), noise levels are lower (though headphones still required) and very smooth.


The size of the 120 (5 seats), the baggage compartment and the fuel tanks mean that you can't fill all of them and stay inside MTOW. Every machine has its limitations.

Tailboom
25th May 2016, 07:22
I've just flown 25hrs in the last 3/4 weeks in a 120, what a fantastic machine, I cannot understand all the negative feedback directed at this Heli, it can only come from pilots who don't fly it !
There is no comparison between a 44 or 66, this is a serious helicopter, very accurate to fly, and once you understand the starting procedure and weight limitations your away
Would definitely recommend one

ranso
28th May 2016, 11:57
Thanks for all your comments.

I tried a 120 yesterday very impressed seemed a modern machine accurate and light to fly,felt that with a few hours use it would be a confidence building machine.

Seems the way forward.

victor papa
28th May 2016, 14:41
Congratulations-best thing to do is to go fly one and feel her to know whether you in the pro 120 or against club. Most plts I know loves the machine ones they fly her and fly her as a 120 and not a 206/44.

TOT
28th May 2016, 18:51
ranso
please check your email and private message

regards

ranso
28th May 2016, 20:49
Hedski

I'm struggling to make the pm work?
Please send me a pm with contact details?

300cbi
28th May 2016, 21:30
Which engine will a 505 have? Dammit, just can't remember...:}

I'm sure they are as good in charging, no matter if it's their engine in a 120 or 505. Might be even better with 505's as they must've sold their engines cheap to get a contract with Bell. TM must be thinking 505 will sell like cupcakes and then it's just a waiting game to bump up the prices for individual clients once first machines are up to TBO...:E At that point there will probably be few hundred machines out there without much other options but to pay whatever TM happens to ask...

505 engine will be the same turbomecca as 120

victor papa
28th May 2016, 21:53
505 engine will be the same turbomecca as 120

Not exactly. The 505 gets a evolution from the 2F on the 120 benefitting from FADEC where 120 is still hydromechanical and higher maint intervals-follow the improvements on the 135 and you will see 120 has original hydro first design vs 505 like new 135 FADEC improved Arrius

victor papa
30th May 2016, 18:50
Ranso pls let us know the end result as I for 1 am on the edge of my seat! As said you wont be disappointed with 120-just make sure your AMO maintain her as a modern Airbus and follow Airbus and TM maintenance schedule and dont take her apart unnecessarily and she will be a joy. Download from Airbus site the Technical data manual for reference of servicings and time required. A experienced 120 eng will do all quoted times in halve the time.

ranso
18th Jun 2016, 09:30
My choice is the 120 it seems to perform adequately, flies smooth, may cost a little more to maintain very impressed with 2 axis Sargem autopilot should help with confidence in the cockpit?

John R81
20th Jun 2016, 06:54
Best help for confidence in the cockpit is training and experience.


I haven't used any stability augmentation system so can't comment on what that system will do for you.


The whistles & bells I have added are:
Aircon - and I love it!!!
Emergency floats
Radar altimeter
Flymap L with synthetic vision


I was forced to add an ELT by regulations, but always preferred the PLB approach.


I tried to join the ADSB trial, but I would need to change the panel-mounted Garmin and cost became a factor.