The 'Freighter' email.

[fliion]

So what could be the potential pit falls or pluses with the latest email.

A separate group of freighet pilots - min two years. Sounds tantalizing but just don't trust these guys.

I mean we're still waiting for an email backing up JA's "positive development" carrot with at least an idea of when all will be revealed but no - throw it out there and leave everyone hanging for months.

Will this be any different?

[luvly jubbly]

Freighter hotel t&cs already vastly inferior to pax fleets. Will pilot t&cs erode rapidly once the workforce splits??

[Paper Lad]

Which company is this referring to?

[lospilotos]

Freighter hotel t&cs already vastly inferior to pax fleets. Will pilot t&cs erode rapidly once the workforce splits??

I know that used to be the case, but lately I haven't seen any major differences other than when the freighter hotel is a completely different one from the pax one, which aren't that many really, or am I wrong?

[Emma Royds]

The difference can also be in ones favour on the freighter. Swings and roundabouts depending on where you are.

[777-200LR]

Hotels and allowances on the 777F comes out of SkyCargo budget, nothing to do with 'mainline'

[harry the cod]

lospilotos

I agree with you. Previously there were some variances in allowances and contracts such as business lounge access but those differences have mostly disappeared.

AMS is the same hotel (with lounge access) and NBO is also same hotel as mainline. SIN, SYD and FRA? All the same from my own experience unless they've changed recently. Personally, I kinda like the freighter ops to be honest. Shut down, get off the plane, into a car or mini van and you're off. No hanging around for crew or dealing with missing pax and bags and no medlink issues or 70 wheelchair passengers on US flights! I'd also imagine that there'll be far less night turns on the freighter given it's type of flying.

So, apart from a possible increase in roster disruption, what's not to like!

Harry

[SOPS]

What's is in it for them??

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

Well I guess not many freighter flights leave Dubai at 3am. No going to EGHQ for 2 years. But long trips away and lots of dead heading.... Unless this will improve roster efficiency?

[harry the cod]

SOPS

Who cares. I ask myself what's in it for me. Get back to walking those dogs.

YP

That's exactly why they're testing the waters. The current program is not efficient in optimum crew usage. Having a dedicated cargo ops will allow better planning as frequent changes to the freighter plan often impacts on mainline flying. I had heard that if insufficient numbers are forthcoming, they may consider offloading the whole cargo ops onto Etihad or another third party.

Harry

[SOPS]

:ok::ok:Will do Harry

[777-200LR]

Unless you have a habit of chasing the cabin crew, this should be pretty sweet! Very few, if any TAs, not manual insertions to 'fill' the roster, no waiting for post landing duties, no missing, sick, drunk, disruptive passengers. Those who don't particularly enjoy full time in Dubai, I see them getting a lot of interest from this

[Emma Royds]

The issue is SkyCargo are in the business of moving cargo from A to B and the intricacies of what we need as crew when downroute are still alien to them in some respects.

The freighter fleet is totally isolated to the rest of the operation and operating out of DWC doesn't help either. The company seem to have acknowledged that by providing a dedicated feedback email address for the freighter fleet. If you don't pass on your concerns in some shape or form, then we stand no chance of seeing any improvement and things have got better on the freighter over time.

For me personally, avoiding EGHQ and not having to find a baby sitter when needing to leave the flight deck would in itself be utopia for me, never mind not seeing India at dark o'clock as mentioned by 777-200LR.

[TOGA TEN]

Yes guys, seems sweet!
however the pitfalls would be positioning most of the time, as many as 12 days away on 1 duty. As duty time limitation won't be a problem, minimum days off at home before going for another long duty! You will just have 8 days off a month and the rest will be down route! On top of all the roster change!
Once again, you would help the company due to shortage of pilot but certainly not yourself, especially if you have a family!

[777-200LR]

TOGA TEN - Do you agree that with 4071 pilots, we have almost every kind imaginable? I guarantee there's a few single/unhappily married guys who will drop at the opportunity to spend very little time in Dubai, take the accommodation allowance, and sleep at your local Premier Inn using their 7-12 day layover allowance for the nights they are in Dubai. Obviously not for everyone, but when you're young and no family, there's a killing to be made

[aussie10]

For those of you with short memories this exactly what cv did. Introduced cx freighters (asl) promising similar conditions including the 2 year minimum ! very quickly after establishment recruitment direct to ASL was possible for very dubious pilot types and terms and conditions were eroded. Once established in the freighter section it was an easy step to force main stream to follow. Beware not all that glitters is gold!!:ok:

[fliion]

Hmmm - not sure about this one.

Limited swap options due limited aircraft.

A lot of roster changes and ADs and perhaps being at the mercy of Cargo scheduling leading to a lot of uncertainty which is the case with all cargo (excl big package delivery) operators. Sounds like Atlas - Middle East style.

Not for me - but would suit some.

And in my wishful (naively optimistic) thinking that this new "package" will make productivity flying worth a shekel or two to us - unlikely in freight ops.

Watching from the sidelines - a skeptical eyebrow raised.

[kingpost]

One has to be very careful here, we need to have all the cards on the table before deciding - who is going to be in the appointment posts - imagine having to work for TCAS again!!

[alwayzinit]

Interested but need a great deal more info on how it is proposed to work. To start, would the Cargo crew hold reserve for the whole airline, would line checks be on freighter or any 777, to whom would we report, would there be a new Cargo Fleet Management, can we get rid of the hat!?
As an aside. Just done the CCU trip same hotel and totally different rates and incentives for Cargo vs Pax crews. Presumably one needs less curry or discounts when flying fruit as opposed to "vegetables"!

[Spool A Fanjet]

And there's no wifi...!

[fliion]

Nice - no wonder the Costa crowd have no respect for the 'lazy pilots'

Not caring about walk arounds, company phone never turned on ...and now above.

Our own worst...

[fatbus]

Boys , if it's such a bad thing don't do it!

[CR9]

I think a separate group could potentially be a good thing, but a 2 year commitment? Thats ridiculous, max 6 months at a time would be much more reasonable. Also, due to the nature of the trips (i.e. long and changing often) we would need some kind of protections on days off, or maybe a guaranteed string of 7 each month. Doing 9+ days trips with two days off in between is not conducive to any kind of life style whatsoever. The current way the trips are organized and changed would mean essentially being on perpetual reserve for 2 years. Also, speaking of changing trips and days off, some kind of financial incentive for extending into days off (this is standard at other cargo operations)......


Other idea's????

[Buford]

I'd say don't sign on for it until they provide more information about the t&cs. Not enough information provided to make it worth anyone's while. Definitely makes you wonder, what's in it for them? At the end of the day that's all this company cares about.

[PositiveRate876]

Just ask the A319 guys what happens when you volunteer for something based on a vague letter.

[Stjuk]

Basing in some of the freighter "hubs" would be a game changer.

Wishful thinking...

[alwayzinit]

Frank, we are already experiencing that, its called a roster! On another point............

There was a muted base for the Freighter op last year, though not much happened. The building are all there so you never know.................

The 2nd email from CPB said quite clearly that replying expressing interest in no way committed anyone to anything. So for me, yeah anything is worth exploring, though I won't be committing to owt til I get a whole lot more info.

[Flyingishere]

Funny. I took over the plane yesterday from a cpt. who was talking about this email. Basically all he could say was, It's a Trap. Called him admiral but didn't seem to have a sense of humour.

Anyway it seems that everything EK throws at us is considered a trap. Lets hope this is a good thing for the guys and gals who are interested !

[JAYTO]

why 2 years.... maybe they realise that once you are in you may change your mind fairly quickly..... oh but wait..... I signed on for 2 years... If they make it six or even 3 months it may just be a pretty good change..... But 2 years?????? that seems a bit strange to me.

[Flyingishere]

why 2 years.... maybe they realise that once you are in you may change your mind fairly quickly..... oh but wait..... I signed on for 2 years... If they make it six or even 3 months it may just be a pretty good change..... But 2 years?????? that seems a bit strange to me.

What about the fact that they want security regarding planning. If you give 3 months options people will change constantly and from a planning pov will make that a complete nightmare.

[JAYTO]

why will it be a complete nightmare from planning.... This month I fly the freighter, next month I fly passengers. What will be the big change to make it a nightmare?

[Flyingishere]

why will it be a complete nightmare from planning.... This month I fly the freighter, next month I fly passengers. What will be the big change to make it a nightmare?

Honestly I think 4k pilots who change on a monthly basis will be difficult to plan. At the moment the planning department knows that they can place any pilot on any fleet, which gives them more variables to puzzle with. If they split the freighter and pax they reduce the variables but it will be steady as they have a pool of pilots for pax and one on freighter. If that pools then changes on a monthly basis, I can imagine that it will be very difficult for planning, but correct me if I;m wrong. 2 years may seem a bit over the top, which could maybe be reduced but Id say nothing less than a year.

I do see your point though. I assume the planning here is done automatically but I'm not sure about that.

[halas]

For those of you who fear it's a trap, don't like changes to roster, deadheading, Maktoum, no tarts, making your own meals/coffee, waiting during delays, min rest, figuring out the flight/duty section in detail, it's only a small fleet, you will never come back.....THEN DON"T APPLY!

And more importantly, feel happy about not applying.

I reckon there will be base group who will fly cargo and as required there will be relief supplied by main fleet.

halas

[glofish]

As much as i would like to take up this option, as much my experience with EK tells me to be very careful.

The company demonstrates in an almost daily rhythm that they change goalposts as faster as their clerks get to Costas every morning. They will initially offer T&Cs that may attract enough pilots. But we all know, that within three months they will adapt the goodies to make them suit their needs & greeds and the poor sods that signed up for two years will be stuck with rapidly deteriorating conditions.

Trust has gone for a very, very long time. No one believes anything no more what EK says or even signs. They will reap what they saw.

[fatbus]

The 777F is to be replaced by 748F, deal with Boeing many requests for 777F but Boeing needs a big order for the 748 ( EK ),wait for the announcement.

[Talparc]

Guys remember the list of interest 6 years ago asking Airbus guys to move to 777.
This list was then renamed to list of commitment.
So it is a trap!

[777-200LR]

I can't see this really being any different to SQ and CX passenger vs cargo. SkyCargo are pretty good at what they do, going from a complete outsourced operation 10 years ago to where they're at today. Its not rocket science, they cannot continue with the mixed fleet flying and this should have been on the cards from the very beginning

[donpizmeov]

Honestly, what could possibly go wrong?

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

team of freighter subject matter
experts focusing on a particular geographic area

Africa?........

[CanadaKid]

What could go wrong ...?

More time in West Africa? (cheaper hotels and halfway between Europe & South America cargo hubs)
Your published roster will be 'just a suggestion'
Deadheading on the freighter vs pax flights
More (than average) contract 'adjustment' not in your favour
More (than average) NOTOC and load sheet errors
Over worked LM & GE
Catering, hmm, shall we say 'challenges'
Expense claims to be filed every month due irregular ops
Etc.

[Panther 88]

All probably accurate, but the 310 freighter ops seemed to be a place to have been. Of course it couldn't do 17+ hours.

[goose_bumps]

I would be very wary of moving over to the freighter. Rumors have been going around for some time suggesting that EK is trying to outsource the freighter operation to another company. As far as we know no deal has been made so far, one of the reasons could very well be that few companies have 300 or so spare 777 pilots laying around. This could be a way of offloading crew and aircrafts as a whole package. So who knows about terms and conditions if that would be the case... On the other hand, maybe opportunities would arise to be based closer to home.

I for one think it's making EK yet a bit less appealing since it reduces the variation and we're losing the possibility of getting to some of the nicer destinations the 380 has taken from the pax 777.

Also curious to know how this would benefit EK if terms and conditions stays the same. My belief is that by having one group of pilots doing everything you'd have greater flexibility. But what do I know.

[GoreTex]

if it was a good gig it would have been offered to a selected team of pilots first, like everything here, if it sounds too good to be true it most likely is.