Career advice please - RPAS or Engineering (+ ETPS question)

[HP90]

Hi all,

I’m looking for some career advice please.

Long story short: My dream was to be a military pilot, but after finding out that I’m below the minimum anthropometric limits to be a pilot in any of the services (I’m too short basically), I am faced with some tough choices.

Commercial pilot is out of the question for me for at least 10+ years until I can get the required capital together – and since the military still holds a big appeal to me even in a non-pilot role, my two options are as follows, both of which greatly interest me:

Firstly, I’m looking at RAF Engineering, which is what my educational background is in (HNC Electronic Engineering). Although I could “top up” my HNC to a degree with a couple of years of work and join as an EngO, I think I’d rather join as an Airman Technician and commission later on (I believe serving aircraft technicians can commission as an EngO with an HNC, although I’d like to get my degree eventually anyway).

I think I’d rather choose the avionics route than the mechanical route, purely since I’m more interested in sensors and cockpits than engines and hydraulics, plus it’s what my educational background is in.

My desire to join as an Airman is driven by the fact that, primarily, I want to work directly on aircraft, and as an EngO I’d likely be sitting in an office all day. On top of that, there’s no guarantee I’d even get to work anywhere near aircraft (I could be OC General Engineering Flight at a non-flying station, for example).

My dream would be to work on the F-35, and to get to deploy with it on the new carriers – with its advanced sensors and systems, it’s an Avionics Technician’s toy. As I say, I’d like to commission eventually, once I’ve “got my fill” of working hands-on with aircraft.

One thing I worry about though, is that since the requirements for Avionics Tech are 5 GCSEs, I’ll be over-qualified for the role, and those I work/train alongside will be 17 year olds who’ve just left school (I’m in my mid-20s and quite mature for my age).

The other option I’m considering is the new role of RPAS Pilot. This would allow me to join as an Officer, and would also put me at the “tip of the spear”, directly delivering airpower. But, my fear is that this role would quickly become monotonous, spending long hours in a trailer watching FLIR images of patches of desert, adjusting the autopilot and occasionally squeezing a trigger.

It wouldn’t be as dynamic as engineering, where every day would bring new problems to fix, and it would not have the opportunity for as many deployments. Nor would it enable me to directly work on or around aircraft. Plus, the options for progression aren’t as diverse as they are with engineering (just staff tours as I understand it).

In short, I’m faced with a choice – I always wanted to be a pilot, which means getting to fly and getting hands-on with aircraft. But, since that’s not possible, I must choose between one or the other - flying (by remote control), or getting to be around aircraft as an engineer. I wouldn't want to be standing on the flight line watching aircraft go out on ops, seeing strike footage on TV and thinking "I should've gone RPAS". But, equally, I wouldn't want to watch aircraft launching on ops on the news, meanwhile I'm stuck in a trailer thousands of miles away from the "action", thinking "I should've gone engineering".

I'm not fussed about money (don't get me wrong, I like it as much as anyone else), but it's not the deciding factor in my decision.

So, I’d like to ask the experienced members of this community which route they’d recommend.

And another question while I’m on the subject: If I go the Engineering route, one thing I’d ultimately like to do (I’d need to be commissioned and have a degree first, which I hope to do anyway) is to get into Flight Test Engineering at Boscombe Down. I know that ETPS have a FTE course, but since said course involves flying, I’d like to know whether I’m going to run into the same anthropometric barrier as prevented me from being a pilot? I have asked ETPS directly by E-mail about this but they have not responded. Is anyone here able to shed any light on this?

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I hope to read your advice in due course.

Regards,

HP

[Robert Cooper]

If you want to fly, then fly.

[FTE Pruner]

You will need to meet (broadly speaking) the same Anthro requirements to go through ETPS, as you would need to join the RAF as a pilot. You will be flying in the same aircraft.

I am assuming that you are male and very tall (although this is just a guess). This will mean that you would suffer potentially severe injuries in the event of an ejection.

[Stitchbitch]

Anthro measurements..it depends on the aircraft, seat, switch positions, etc. If your out of limits for the ejection seat then you'd miss out on some of the fun..You might be okay for the heavy stuff though, but it may make the course unachieveable if you can't perform some vital functions/safety critical items due to your stature? Where's LOMEVAK when you need him?

[Pontius Navigator]

FTEPruner, 1/10 for comprehension ��, he said too short.

HP90, you might of course be female. You seem to have a reasonable grasp of what you want to do but as both are new areas since I retired I am not sure how accurate you are.

I can say that while you are most interested in avionics it would be up to the Service which discipline of electronics you were employed in. My son in law was employed as an avionics tech in the AAC which was essentially comms equipments rather than weapons systems. He joined the RAF with a commission and was posted to what was then ground radio servicing - comms, radars and IT. He moved through comms networking to special comms and then policy at Main Building. His final tour is at Shrivenham as far from a black box as you can get.

Have you organized a station visit? You need to look at electronics as a whole.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I can sympathise and disagree with you on several levels HP90 having been though several variants of this loop through my career.

Firstly, if you are in your 20s and have an issue with serving alongside 17 year olds - get over it. That's the wrong reason to not want to be an RAF technician. Secondly the 5 GCSEs requirement is an absolute minimum, and the majority of successful candidates will significantly exceed that.

Flight Test Engineering is an honourable trade - I've been doing it for 23 years on and off, including 5 years at Boscombe Down and being a student for most of ETPS course (which I failed, before anybody else is kind enough to remind me - more on that in a minute). However, for only a tiny minority nowadays, is it a flying job. Nor for the vast majority of expert practitioners does it require you to be a "long course graduate", which is industry speak for having done ETPS or a similar course.

It is a highly educated profession - HNC doesn't hack it at-all: you want a BEng(Hons) as an absolute minimum, and the majority of good younger FTEs are Masters level nowadays or better. It is a job that is very deeply into technical analysis, preparation, planning, reporting - and if you get the right job *some* flying. It does require a very deep understanding of the relevant aspects of flying, but it is not a day to day flying job like being a full time pilot.

My experience - went well, then badly, then well again. I was a UAS cadet pilot and a university aero-eng student. An RAF career was something I couold consider, but I actually went with an MoD Student / Graduate Engineer route, and got what for me was a dream job as a Trials Officer at Boscombe Down. It was a technically fascinating job - I got to run trials in all sorts of things, most of which I got flying time in, and on the back of being quite good at it, I got sent to ETPS - as a civilian (more civilians than military British FTEs did the course then, I assume that's not changed). I then got chopped late in the course and discovered what a high risk strategy doing ETPS had been for me, as I then despite having had all this expensive training and done bloody well in the job prior to that, wasn't allowed to go back to it. So, after running a small ground testing department for a while, I buggered off to the civilian world where - a PhD in flight test development and Commercial Pilots Licence later, I'm doing very well thanks, still flying, and still active in flight testing. That is *a* route and apart from the enormous kick in the teeth of failing TPS 20 years ago has been great. Not many of us managed it however.

But, my lessons from all of this - flight testing is a deep technical profession needing a lifelong dedication to the technical aspects of aviation, and a desire to continuously learn and self improve. FTEs have usually Masters degrees these days plus at least a PPL or equivalent, TPs probably have a BEng as well as all their military flying qualifications - and both are spending most of their time on the ground thinking deeply about the technical aspects of aviation. Flying is the icing on the cake, but it's not the main part of it.


Other points - yes, you're right, RAF Engineering Officers are mostly managers or analysts. The same is true of most graduate engineers. This includes people working as FTEs in both the military and civilian world. If you want to spend significant time getting your hands dirty on flying machines - yes, go the technician route, whether military or civilian. A degree on top of that gives you the route actually into some pretty good jobs, and within the service for a commission - but you of course don't need to take that. If you're hung up about ages 'though - get over it ! You are no better or worse than them in anybody else's eyes.

If you want to fly, then fly. RPAS flying is not unlike flight test engineering on fast jets - it's a ground based technical job based around aviation. It does not pass the "pink body in the air" test.

If you want to fly, and you've got an anthropometric problem, then your choices are:-

- Look at other services. Will the Army accept you? No ejector seat issues there.

- Find the money, do the modular thing as you work or serve, eventually get to the position of being able to work as a professional civilian pilot.

- Join the RAF in a non-pilot role, take advantage of all of the opportunities through service flying clubs to fly for fun with the natural subsidies that go with being in the RAF. (Before anybody jumps in - service flying clubs basically just pay for the aeroplanes - hangarage, office space, runway use, volunteer instructors mostly "just happen", and quite right too. That's subsidy, not that I criticise it.)


If you want to do engineering as a profession, that works fine alongside either leisure or professional (part time civilian anyhow) flying, but you need to make a decision about whether you are taking the engineering technician route, or going to significantly up your educational standards and take the chartered engineer route. In the RAF those correspond to non-commissioned and commissioned routes, near enough.


Good luck with your decision making.

G

[Rotax]

So you know where I am coming from: I did an engineering degree at university, joined as a pilot and went the multi-engine route. I've flown multis as co-pilot and captain, both in the UK and on exchange, instructed on EFT, and flown RPAS.


There is nothing like RPAS for job satisfaction, for actually feeling like you are making a real difference to the campaign or to people's lives. Sure, hauling weapons and ammo around theatre is vital, but the feeling of a job well done doesn't compare. There's a hell of a lot more to the job than twiddling the autopilot and pushing Triangle, Triangle, Square as fast as you can.


I would also counsel you not to be so quick to discount RPAS as a boring option. Yes, there may well be long hours staring at the desert, but that's not any less boring than being in the cruise for hours at a time with the only promise of excitement being a landing back at your home base. At least on RPAS there is always the promise of something interesting just around the corner.


I imagine flying a fast jet would top all of that, but as that's not an option for you, I'd not worry about it. As has been said before - if you want to fly, fly. Take-off and landing is just as challenging on an RPAS as it is on any aircraft. Don't think RPAS is not 'proper flying' - it's just a bit different...

[Union Jack]

FTEPruner, 1/10 for comprehension ��, he said too short.

HP90, you might of course be female. - PN


PN - Et tu, Brute - 1/10 for not referring to profile......:):=

Jacl

[Pontius Navigator]

Lol. .

But then 'twas FTEP who assumed male and too tall, I was simply suggesting the corollary.

[FTE Pruner]

FTEPruner, 1/10 for comprehension ��, he said too short.

My mistake - I was sick on the day they taught us about the importance of accuracy at TPS!

[Genghis the Engineer]

"Never check, assume", as the TPS QFI always used to remind us.

G

[WannabeCrewman]

I would say that whilst flying RPAS is not seen as punchy as screaming around the Mach Loop in a Typhoon, its going to have a lot of very interesting things going on in the future - new aircraft, possible new mission sets, plus the civilian sector offering more and more opportunities post-service. I would say given your educational background (Electronic Engineering), the options will be even greater.

Don't write it off; as Rotax has said, there's plenty more to it than meets the eye, and its only getting more interesting.

The other option (and I'm not sure if you've considered this) is that of NCO Aircrew - Weapons System Operator.

You will still fly - unless you end up on RPAS - but you will operate on a wide array of aircraft, doing some interesting jobs. You could end up hunting submarines or leaning out the side of a Chinook - its that varied. The NCA cadre tends to be made up of slightly older guys and girls; early-to-mid-twenties seems about the norm of those coming through at the moment. It'll open up further options and you can always commission later - whether that be in-branch or to RPAS Pilot.

Worth considering.

Best of luck.

[LOMCEVAK]

HP90,

Please check your PMs.

Stichbitch,

I'm here!

Rgds

L

[HP90]

Thanks everyone for your detailed responses, I really appreciate you all taking the time to read this and help me out.

Just to clarify, I am genuinely interested in engineering as a career, it’s not that I’m just “settling for it”. I admit I’d rather be a pilot, but if I can’t, engineering still holds a lot of appeal for me. I like aircraft and being around them, and the chance to work on some highly advanced systems the likes of which you find in modern aircraft (particularly the F-35) would be a great career regardless. And I’ve recently learned that Avionics Techs can get to fly as airborne techs on the ISTAR fleet – that would be cool too, especially on the new P-8s.

But RPAS also interests me, as it would give me the chance to fly the missions rather than support them. Also, there’s no denying that the future of RPAS looks very bright – our new “Protectors” will have the ability to fly in UK airspace, and FCAS will be coming online in the 2030s.

I think RPAS will increasingly become a central part of air campaigns in future. I also see the future of the RPAS being an amalgamation of the pilot/sensor operator into a single role – I know that the USAF are looking at this.

In addition to that, Flight Test Engineering has always interested me, as to me it is the “apex” of aerospace engineering – developing new aircraft and putting new capabilities into existing aircraft sounds exciting, challenging, and rewarding.

So, for me it’s a difficult choice as to what I’d rather do. However, another potential route that I’ve thought about, that would allow me to pursue both my engineering interest and RPAS interest, would be to join as an Avionics Technician and later commission as an RPAS pilot. That way, I’d get the best of both worlds.

Another interesting thing I have discovered is that the USAF TP school at Edwards AFB have an “Experimental RPA Test Pilot” course, which is open to international students, that would give me a route into test flying via the RPAS role. And an Engineering Technician background would only strengthen my application, I think. This route could potentially allow me to do everything I want to do, which would be an amazing career.

Of course whichever route I take I’d like to take full advantage of the RAF Flying Clubs and get my PPL and any additional ratings, fly as many different types as I can get my hands on, etc. All of that would only strengthen any future flight testing application too.

Also, I’d like to pursue my electronic engineering degree regardless of which route I take – I could top-up my HNC to an HND with one-year of distance learning, which would in turn allow me to enter the final year of a degree course, which I could complete in 2 years part-time. From there I could even gain a Masters with another two years’ study. And all potentially funded by the RAF too!

To answer some of the question raised in this thread: With regard my anthro limitations, my problem is that I’m only 5’2” (yes, I really am short!), which puts me under for every measurement, but especially Buttock-Heel (i.e. leg length – or lack thereof in my case). Weight too was an issue for me.

WannabeCrewman – I have indeed looked at WSOp, but since that role carries the same anthro limitations as pilot, it’s a no-go for me.

LOMCEVAK – Thanks very much, expect a reply in due course!

Once again, thanks all for your input. I’ve got a lot to think about, but most people complain about not having any career options – so having the opposite problem is no bad thing!

Best regards,

HP

-----
Edit:

And a few questions, if I may:

1) If I wanted to commission as either an EngO or RPAS(P) from within the service (assuming I was an Av Tech), would the return-of-service still apply (i.e. would I still have to complete a minimum return-of-service as an Av Tech before applying for a commission)?

2) I see the age limit for RPAS(P) is 32.5, but would that age limit still apply if I were commissioning from within the service?

Thanks again.

[peppermint_jam]

Fairys can indeed fly as AT's, but you need to be a Sgt, which will take you probably 10-15 years to get to. The RAF are screaming out for non-comissioned engineers to go through the BES scheme at the moment and come out as engineering officers, there's quite a few people on my Sqn going for it as we speak.