View Full Version : Military Aircrew and Heart Murmur
Good afternoon all,
Whilst having a Armed Forces med today with my local AFCO AME; it was noticed that I have a audible Heart Murmur.
I was obviously shocked (and slightly disappointed and upset) upon hearing this news and I was made TMU until further investigations are made.
I appreciate that some may not be medically qualified to answer (and I am in the process of having ECG's and Echocardiagram done and my AFCO has been informed) what are the chances that all being well and nothing found to be sinister that I will be able to continue with a career in Mil Av.
Overall; I'm glad this has been discovered but as mentioned - I'm gutted and disappointed - just hoping it doesn't hamper my application or future.
Best regards.
Bob Viking
27th Apr 2016, 15:45
NDW.
If everything is found to be normal then all is well. If you do indeed have a heart murmur then, based on the rules from when I went through OASC in 1999, I'm afraid the news is not good.
Bear in mind I'm not a doctor and I can't swear that my information is bang up to date but you should be prepared for either eventuality.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings and I hope that everything turns out fine. If you are suitable in all other areas and then miss out because of a hitherto unknown medical complaint it is a bitter pill to swallow.
All the best and others may be able to amplify my points further.
BV
pulse1
27th Apr 2016, 16:10
I am not a doctor or military pilot but I have lived with a heart murmur for many years. My doctor has assured me that it has no medical consequences whatsoever. It has never been an issue in Class 2 medicals for my PPL and I am still capable of passing that at 76. That, of course, may not be relevant for the stricter requirements for the military.
When it comes to travel insurance, most companies exclude it but my doctor assures me that he would support my claim if any company refused to pay out for any other problems associated with the heart e.g. heart attack.
Best of luck.
p1
Pontius Navigator
27th Apr 2016, 16:11
My medical advisor asks what level of sustained activity you have maintained, for instance arduous activity like climbing with a Bergan. Can you hear your heart thumping?
However I was assessed with a myocardial infarction, rushed to hospital, and walked out 30 minutes later; that was 30 years ago.
A doctor is not always right; wait for the second opinion.
Bob Viking
27th Apr 2016, 16:39
VP.
As I quite clearly said and you directly quoted. I was saying how it was in '99 and also said it may not be correct now. That's not wrong. Several people who went through selection at the time were denied entry based on heart murmurs. If things have changed and a second opinion can help then that's excellent news.
Let's all hope for a positive outcome.
BV
tmmorris
27th Apr 2016, 16:57
VigilantPilot time for a new screen name surely? :}
Herod
27th Apr 2016, 17:02
Many years ago, I was having a routine ECG as part of the medical, when it picked up an abnormality. I was thinking the worst, when the nurse opened the door and said "Ethel, turn the Hoover off a minute". All returned to normal. Hope the second opinion shows all is OK. Good luck.
Pontius Navigator
27th Apr 2016, 17:09
"A doctor is not always right; wait for the second opinion. " - In this case, the doctor is correct and is following the AP.
. Candidates for aircrew, Aircraft control duties must be referred for specialist opinion.
We agree, you said it. If a doctor is always right then no need for a specialist opinion.
Avtur
27th Apr 2016, 17:24
I was found to have a heart murmur and after a visit to a very nice Gp Capt Cardiologist at Peterborough Hospital, was told after an ECG that it was "innocent", very common, and to forget all about it. So the chances are that you will be fine. Good luck.
No guarantees this will be the case for you, hope so, but on one PME, Junior doc heard a "murmur" and made arrangements for a scan at Peterborough. That's it thought I, end of flying career or worse as no one discussed the possibilities with me. Anyway, scan and follow up with specialist diagnosed JMO's hearing at fault and during subsequent appointment with SMO, he said it was quite common to falsely diagnose "murmurs".
Fingers crossed for you NDW.
Bob Viking
27th Apr 2016, 18:39
VP.
You're right. I'm wrong. Bored now.
BV
downsizer
27th Apr 2016, 19:10
Pointless thread is pointless.
No one on here will have the answer unless they can see the OPs medical records and the results of the tests.:}
I had a heart murmur detected during my annual aircrew medical one year, cue downgrade in med cat and a few months waiting for an echocardiogram at Haslar etc. before everything was confirmed as being nothing to worry about and getting my med cat back.
Went for my CAA Class 1 medical, had the usual checks including an electrocradiogram, Doc looked at the trace for 30 seconds, said 'that's nothing to worry about' and signed me off.
MPN11
27th Apr 2016, 19:58
This may sound frivolous, but it isn't meant that way.
Our 'rescue cat' from the local Animals' Shelter has a heart murmur. Over the last 5-6 years she has bounded around happily, and it seems her murmur is actually diminishing. She's certainly not called "Storm" for no reason - 100% is her standard mode of operation.
The problem will be the Doc who does the final assessment. Good luck!
Wander00
27th Apr 2016, 22:33
MPN11 - ditto my 9 year old dog. However, I think local vet and specialist at La Rochelle are in cahoots, and want us to take him for echocardiograph every 6 mths, at €160 a pop. I think we will wait until he slows down a bit!
Easy Street
28th Apr 2016, 01:28
BV, you're definitely wrong! Me - OASC 1998, heart murmur discovered by locum who told me there and then it was curtains for my flying ambitions, panic, allowed to complete part 2 of selection anyway, summoned by Gp Capt OASC before leaving for instant decision that I would be offered a pilot slot pending outcome of further medicals, referred to Peterborough, six weeks' anxious waiting (made considerably less stressful by thoughtful action of aforementioned gp capt), declared benign on the spot by cardiologist, many happy years of fast jet flying. Annual medicals have fallen fairly evenly into three categories - 1) doc has read the notes and mentions the murmur before examination; 2) doc surprised by hearing the murmur and referred by me to the notes; 3) doc doesn't mention it at all. Whether the latter meant they didn't hear it, or had read the notes and didn't mention it, I wouldn't know! But the bottom line is that it was not, and is not, a definite end to hopes of a military flying career until it has been assessed as such by a cardiologist.
While on the subject of heart complaints, there was an episode a few years ago at a remote northern station during which, over the course of several months, a not insignificant number of aircrew were grounded and sent for cardiological assessment after their routine ECGs uncovered the development of a potentially terminal (for flying, at any rate) heart condition. Each missed out on several weeks' flying before receiving a clean bill of health. No-one at the unnamed station seemed to think this at all odd. The cardiologist, however, started to wonder why he was seeing so many patients referred with this unusual condition who then presented with no symptoms whatsoever. On looking at the records of these individuals, he realised that they had all come from the same unnamed station, and on further investigation he realised that this one station had, in a few months, already referred more cases of the condition from within a previously well-screened group of aircrew than would be expected in one year in the entire UK population. A phone call to the SMO followed, and it was soon established that the station's ECG machine had been experiencing an insidious intermittent fault for months without (apparently) ever arousing suspicion among the medical staff. Whether or not this was due to the ineptitude of one particular nurse in using it was never revealed. Again the takeaway is not to put much stock in a GP's assessment of matters cardiological.
Pontius Navigator
28th Apr 2016, 07:30
ES, maybe they had served in Lincolnshire previously. In my case it was so severe I was seen within the week.
All;
Thank you very much for your responses and it has brought me some hope.
I'm certainly going to persevere and get a 2nd opinion and a visit to the Cardiologist. I'm contemplating going private in order hopefully cut a significant portion of the potential eight month delay which was initially briefed to me by the AME.
I'll keep you all informed.
Again, thank you for your kind comments.
Kindest regards,
NDW
You can go and see your civilian doc and get a private referral to an NHS hospital - this is exactly what I did. I don't think you'll avoid having to see a cardiologist though. I did this to avoid a lengthy wait and crack on with IOT - the cost was about £600 if I remember correctly (although that was a long time ago!)
VP;
Absolutely; the sooner that I can get what needs to be investigated, well investigated - the better.
Thanks for your comment.
camelspyyder
28th Apr 2016, 18:11
Somebody in recruiting - please give Nathan a job. He's been trying to get in as a WSOp for about 7 (seven) years and I think he deserves it just for his bloody-minded persistence!!
teeteringhead
29th Apr 2016, 09:51
A bit off topic - I had a (benign!) heart murmur a couple of years ago. Don't know if it was one of those MVP things - not heard that phrase and I'm definitely not lean/tall/thin either - but it turns out the flow was so strong and high (although BP NOT high) that it was spilling over one of the valves, which was making the noise.
Had a scan - queueing up along with a load of preggie ladies - and actually saw my heart working in real time - including seeing the "overspill" causing the murmur.
One of the most miraculous things I've ever seen............... :)
MACH2NUMBER
29th Apr 2016, 14:01
NDW,
After passing all medicals with flying colours, I was entered into the RAF for pilot training in 1970. On my second aircrew medical, the Group Captain medic detected a heart murmur. I was sent to hospital for check-ups egg etc. The heart specialist said who was the numpty who sent you here? You have a narrow rib cage and the heart is near to it, so it sounds louder.
I subsequently served over 30 years as a fast jet pilot.
Hope all turns out well for you.
M2N
Willy Miller
30th Apr 2016, 19:11
Hi,
have been flying for 26 years mil and civi, an AME heard a murmur 15 years ago and sent me for a scan - no problems, a slight regurgitation around a valve, had probably always been there. He said if he listened to all the hearts on the high street, around 20% would have some sort of murmur. Now an airline captain and still murmurring away!! Best of luck
All,
Thank you very much for your kind comments, genuinely means a great deal.
The disappointment stage has now since passed and now I'm into the perseverance and determination stage. This will (hopefully) only be a minor setback and I'm determined to ensure I can continue, fit and well, with my application in the soonest.
CamelSpyyder;
Somebody in recruiting - please give Nathan a job. He's been trying to get in as a WSOp for about 7 (seven) years and I think he deserves it just for his bloody-minded persistence!!
Thanks for your comment, if only it were that easy ey!! :ok:
Kindest regards.
Octane
1st May 2016, 10:44
Best of luck...
Thanks Octane.
I'll keep everyone updated - hopefully it will provide some information for anyone else going through the recruitment stages who may be in a similar situation.
Best regards,
NDW
Smeagol
3rd May 2016, 20:54
Not wishing to spoil anyone's party but....................
I had a 'heart murmur' detected during an RAF medical at Biggin Hill and unfortunately it meant that I could never fly as anything other than as a PPL. The RAF offered me a cadetship in Engineering but being just a tad disappointed at not being able to become a pilot I thought that I could not handle being so close to my chosen career without being able to do it.
I had undertaken two previous medicals at Biggin and passed both. The diagnosis was that I had had a mild case of rheumatic between the 2nd and 3rd medicals which damaged my heart.
It was a wrong diagnosis as a few years later when ultrasound imaging became available I was examined by a Harley St cardiologist ( Oil company medical) who told me that I had a bicuspid aortic valve (and still have !) and I was born with it. He also said that whoever picked this up was having a good day with a warm stethoscope.
The good news is that the original (wrong) diagnosis happened in 1969 and would unlikely happen today as ultrasound and MRI scans can clearly identify my problem today. In my case the outcome would likely have been the same. "No career in flying for you my son"
The good news is that I was told that I would probably need an aortic valve replacement by the age of 50, I am now 64 and the valve is holding up well, I have ultrasound scans every couple of years and to date no changes.
Hope it turns out better for you NDW.
Bob Viking
3rd May 2016, 21:16
So despite being told repeatedly in this thread that I was wrong it turns out that a heart murmur is sadly not always benign.
From the outset I have tried to highlight that the news is not always positive. Thankfully though it might be. Once again NDW I wish you all the best and I hope your news is good.
BV (not feeling smug just don't like to be told I'm wrong without categorical proof!)
Not wishing to spoil anyone's party but....................
I had a 'heart murmur' detected during an RAF medical at Biggin Hill and unfortunately it meant that I could never fly as anything other than as a PPL. The RAF offered me a cadetship in Engineering but being just a tad disappointed at not being able to become a pilot I thought that I could not handle being so close to my chosen career without being able to do it.
I had undertaken two previous medicals at Biggin and passed both. The diagnosis was that I had had a mild case of rheumatic between the 2nd and 3rd medicals which damaged my heart.
It was a wrong diagnosis as a few years later when ultrasound imaging became available I was examined by a Harley St cardiologist ( Oil company medical) who told me that I had a bicuspid aortic valve (and still have !) and I was born with it. He also said that whoever picked this up was having a good day with a warm stethoscope.
The good news is that the original (wrong) diagnosis happened in 1969 and would unlikely happen today as ultrasound and MRI scans can clearly identify my problem today. In my case the outcome would likely have been the same. "No career in flying for you my son"
The good news is that I was told that I would probably need an aortic valve replacement by the age of 50, I am now 64 and the valve is holding up well, I have ultrasound scans every couple of years and to date no changes.
Hope it turns out better for you NDW.
So despite being told repeatedly in this thread that I was wrong it turns out that a heart murmur is sadly not always benign.
From the outset I have tried to highlight that the news is not always positive. Thankfully though it might be. Once again NDW I wish you all the best and I hope your news is good.
BV (not feeling smug just don't like to be told I'm wrong without categorical proof!)
Smeagol and BV,
Thank you both for your comments. I'm remaining optimistic, however I also have to accept that it may not go my way. I'm preparing (but hopefully won't need) for the latter, but I have everything crossed.
Again, thank you all for your kind and encouraging words - I'll keep you all updated.
Kindest regards,
NDW
Lordflasheart
4th May 2016, 10:21
Whatever tests, private or NHS, you have done, you can usually get a copy of the tape/trace/disk to take away with you. Probably for a small fee - and best to request in advance. So even if you don't understand it, you've got a copy to show a future expert opinion.
Good luck. LFH
NutLoose
4th May 2016, 11:45
After having my stents nailed in last year etc I was given a printout to carry with me as I have an inverted T wave in my rhythm, that way if I ever have to come in again I am supposed to hand it to the Ambulance bods so they know what is what.
Professor Plum
4th May 2016, 13:04
NDW,
I had a heart murmur picked up too when I did oasc in 2006. Sent off to a specialist, who said it was benign.
In still an RAF pilot. The heart murmur still gets picked up on 50% ish of my PMEs.
Best of luck!
NDW,
I had a heart murmur picked up too when I did oasc in 2006. Sent off to a specialist, who said it was benign.
In still an RAF pilot. The heart murmur still gets picked up on 50% ish of my PMEs.
Best of luck!
P_P,
Thanks for your reply. Out of interest, was your application significantly delayed by this result?
I'm waiting it out and hoping that the news will be good on Tuesday.
Best regards to all,
NDW
Fingers crossed for you, NDW :ok: :cool:
Melchett01
4th May 2016, 19:50
Ever thought of just having your heart removed and cracking on? You won't need it when you get in (as your perseverance at least suggests) - nobody who's done well in the military that I know of ever had a heart anyway :E
Sorry, couldn't resist, but you'll get plenty of banter and wholly inappropriate humour on the other side of selection anyway! :ok:
Fingers crossed for you, NDW
MPN11, Many thanks.
Ever thought of just having your heart removed and cracking on? You won't need it when you get in (as your perseverance at least suggests) - nobody who's done well in the military that I know of ever had a heart anyway
Sorry, couldn't resist, but you'll get plenty of banter and wholly inappropriate humour on the other side of selection anyway!
I'd expect nothing less :E:E - as one of the RM's ethos say 'smile in the face of adversity' :ok:
Good morning all,
Well after a few administrative issues this morning at my GP; I'm now having my ECG done this afternoon, where as it should have been done this AM.
The GP listened and he too said he could hear a heart murmur, thankfully I'm able to get the ECG this afternoon as I'm getting fairly anxious about the whole situation (something unfortunately I tend to have when it comes to Medicals/GP visits/Hosp visits etc) - must be a case of good ol' white coat syndrome!
Will report back this PM,
Regards,
NDW
Afternoon all,
Well - I've just come back from my ECG with not the best news - however awaiting a call from the Doc ref my results.
An abnormality was found, but what it is, is still very much a guessing game, my heart rate was around 96-100 (due to anxiety).
So, presuming next stage will be to have an Echo and to visit the Cardio chap!
Best regards,
NDW
NutLoose
10th May 2016, 15:17
Fingers crossed for you mate :)
This is only loosely relevant, because it concerns pilots having minor medical complaints, not medical problems picked-up in a medical inspection.
My father, an RAF pilot in the 1930s to 1960s, always advised his fellow pilots to avoid going to the MO over minor medical complaints. He belly-landed a Vampire and a few months later went to the MO complaining of stomach pain when flying at altitude. The medics suspected an ulcer and did all possible checks, but came up with no explanation for his pain. The incident caused him to be medically down-graded, resulting in him being barred from flying overseas.
He subsequently received a tip-off from a WAAF he knew at the MoD that when it his name came up at promotion boards, he would be passed-over, the question being voiced 'Is he better yet?' I think there may have been some suspicion that he was funking it, having possibly 'lost his nerve' after his Vampire forced landing. Eventually he managed to persuade the medics to restore his medical grading, on the grounds that the pains no longer troubled him and concern about his frozen promotion was doing him no good at all. However, although he got his bill of health, the damage had by then been done... he was no longer in the promotional 'A' stream.
Thus his advice was to steer clear of the MO and go private for minor medical problems. With modern medical knowledge, it seems likely that his stomach pains were probably due to a gut-bloating bug like H-pylori, but of course, this was unheard-of in those days. He retired as a Wg Cdr, but cites this incident as being one of several factors that held him back from gaining higher promotion.
Tinribs
11th May 2016, 19:40
I am not sure my experience helps the topic starter but it might benefit other readers
Some years ago while still gainfully employed driving Boeings for BMI Baby my medical ECG was assessed by the auto function as "left side something". Not to worry says AMO. A week or so later get a letter from CAA saying go and see special heart man for stress ECG after treadmill, by the way don't forget to pay. Go to see heart man, walk on treadmill for twice required time crawl off knackered. Heart man sends CAA letter saying stop wasting my time can't you see I'm busy. Then asks me is there a fridge in the room you had your ECG, yes says I. Did it start or stop during the reading dunno says I. End of conversation. Letter from CAA saying no problem. Ring heart man why do I have to pay lots of loot if there was never a problem, don't go there sonny says he, end of exercise.
Similar tale for me at Wildenrath in the 80s. Called back post ECG for further tests, as "anomalies" were observed. Discovered by medic that ECG gadget had been placed on a radiator in the exam room, thus picking up all sorts of vibs from the station boiler house.....
teeteringhead
12th May 2016, 12:36
Remember when they started doing them at a Secret Hampshire Helicopter Base.
Several aircrew were grounded as their ECGs coincided with a truck passing the Medical Centre! :ugh:
Good afternoon all,
Update;
I had a call back today reference my ECG that I had on Tuesday afternoon.
The ECG showed good results, the GP thinks that it may be the top of my heart or a valve of some sort that is pumping quicker than others (probably due to my anxiety when it comes to Medicals etc) and would probably confirm the whooshing sound that was heard at my AFCO medical.
Awaiting a letter from the Cardiologist for the next step.
Best regards.
Courtney Mil
12th May 2016, 15:32
Good news!
Good afternoon all;
Finally, some progress.
Cardiology appointment booked for 1st Aug (the earliest they can fit me in) and had an email from the AFCO ref FATS at Cranwell and I can still attend sit FATS whilst waiting for my Medical clearance. At least things are moving in a slow, but positive motion. :ok::ok:
NutLoose
25th May 2016, 08:46
Good news indeed.
getsometimein
31st May 2016, 15:50
Out of interest. I had a heart murmur picked up on application/selection in 2000/2001.
Had an ultrasound, was diagnosed with a left/right ventricular (I know one is bad, the other is fine). No issues joining up in the end, just a 3 month delay due to the extra testing.
Hit my 15 year point at the end of June...
Getsometimein, thanks for your reply.
This has filled me with some confidence and glad it never held you back.
Best regards.
Out of interest. I had a heart murmur picked up on application/selection in 2000/2001.
Had an ultrasound, was diagnosed with a left/right ventricular (I know one is bad, the other is fine). No issues joining up in the end, just a 3 month delay due to the extra testing.
Hit my 15 year point at the end of June...
Good morning all,
Well, D-Day has arrived. Cardiologist appointment this afternoon.
Here's to hoping that 14 years of hard work will prevail.
Wander00
1st Aug 2016, 08:28
Best of luck. Hope news is good
Nippon1
1st Aug 2016, 08:42
Hi
I was diagnosed with a heart murmur in 1969 at Biggin Hill, since then I have had over 40 years of flying including flying with 3 major airlines with no problems. The murmur was caused by my Mitral valve and it presented as the "Click, Click Syndrome". In all my time flying I had no problem.
Good Luck.
Tankertrashnav
1st Aug 2016, 14:08
When I did my medical for my PPL aged 60 the ECG picked up an anomaly. The guys reaction was "I've never seen one like that before!" Anyway I was sent to a cardiologist and had the lot, echocardiogram etc and he found nothing. In the end the chap just said "it's just a funny ECG -it happens"
Anyway, passed my medical, and my heart is still ticking away ok 9 years later
Good afternoon all (and it's a very good afternoon)!
Back from my visit to the see the Cardiologist and having had another ECG and the Echo - I've got a good healthy heart. They believe I may have a flow murmur - but she said from her POV - it's nothing to worry about and she shouldn't have to see me ever again.
Next step to is compile all the info and head back to my AME to hopefully pass as 'Fit'.
Thank you all for your encouraging words and I'm just so glad to now (hopefully) be back on track.
Best regards,
Nathan
Wander00
1st Aug 2016, 17:29
Sounds good - good luck in the next stages
:D Good news, and good luck!
Bob Viking
2nd Aug 2016, 10:10
I'm glad it turned out to be good news for you. Best of luck for the future.
Vigilant Pilot - I can sense the smugness in your post;)
BV
NutLoose
2nd Aug 2016, 17:10
Having read again through this thread, for shear courtesy and affability that you have shown to those both encouraging and helping you with advice, along with your dedication in trying to attain your goal, I wish you all the best and hope you succeed in gaining the life career you have plainingly set your heart on.
It's a refreshing change to see.
Professor Plum
2nd Aug 2016, 19:20
I'd like to echo what nut loose said.
Great news!
My heart murmur never stopped me joining, and I'm glad it's the same for you.
I wish you the best of luck!
Union Jack
2nd Aug 2016, 21:30
I wish you all the best and hope you succeed in gaining the life career you have plainly set your heart on. - NutLoose
I see what you did there, Nutty, and wholeheartedly support the sentiments expressed by you and others.:ok:
Jack
All,
Thank you very much for your kind words. Really does mean a lot.
Kindest regards,
NDW
Good morning all,
Just a final update for you all, I had my second AFCO Medical and Passed. A huge sigh of relief and whilst only a very small and what may seem trivial success, it's certainly a step closer to achieving what I've wanted for 10 years.
Thank you all for your support.
Wander00
11th Sep 2016, 11:14
NDW - Brilliant - great news. Good luck
Bugs to forty
11th Sep 2016, 11:52
Good afternoon all;
Finally, some progress.
Cardiology appointment booked for 1st Aug (the earliest they can fit me in) and had an email from the AFCO ref FATS at Cranwell and I can still attend sit FATS whilst waiting for my Medical clearance. At least things are moving in a slow, but positive motion. :ok::ok:
NDW
So you got the all clear on the heart issue... but how did the earlier aptitude tests go?
NDW
So you got the all clear on the heart issue... but how did the earlier aptitude tests go?
B2F,
I decided to push back FATS to Feb 2017. It was a decision I thought long and hard about as I didn't want to give the AFCO the impression I was just doing it for the sake of it, but after explaining to them that I wanted to first pass my AFCO medical & fitness test (so that it wasn't something extra on my mind) and to also ensure I felt as confident as possible to ensure the best results.
Hopefully, I should now have my fitness test within the next few weeks or by the end of the month, so once that's complete - I'll be ready and set to smash the FATS..............
...... That's the plan anyway, hopefully it'll stick to that :-D
Bugs to forty
12th Sep 2016, 04:52
NDW
Top tip from me... do aptitude tests first - or at least as soon as you can.
If you reach the cutoff scores - they're valid for 12 months and you'll probably have at least 3 months to prepare for OASC; however, many fail at first attempt after which you'd have to wait 12 months before allowed another go!
Bugs_to_forty,
This will be my second attempt at the Aptitudes, sadly I didn't make the cut for WSOp last September (2015). My year surpassed early Sep, however, whilst waiting for Medical clearance - I decided (lots of umming and arring) to push it back to early 2017. Hopefully, it was a wise choice...............he says!