1v1 combat debrief

[safetypee]

Gentlemen, yes the two who disturbed the tranquility of the lands behind the Malvern Hills at 1615 today.
Apart from disrupting a quiet afternoon in the shed reshaping wood, the combat skills exhibited were woeful.

In a close-contact defensive guns environment get into the vertical before loosing all excess energy, and if you continue to turn don't get so slow that there are few options remaining.
You were too slow. :sad:

If there is any doubt that you have forced a fly through never reverse. Consider an early vertical, rolling, scissors manoeuvre as an alternative.
You reversed. :=

No wonder that you dived into an adjacent 'humbly' CB, and then continued a northerly tail chase around the bubbling clouds.
You will have to repeat the excersise as soon as possible, and consider dissimilar aircraft types for opposition.

With age comes weakening eyesight as might degraded recognition skills, but were you really flying Mig 29s?

Ahh WIWOL

[MACH2NUMBER]

Great analysis, do these kids know nothing? I guess you were also a QWI.
Yes also a WIWOL

[Cows getting bigger]

Safetypee, thank you. Sat here sipping a Rijoca, I'm chuckling away at how a pair of young sky-gods have been eloquently debriefed.

Good fortune with the wood shaping. It can be devilishly difficult. :O

[BEagle]

safetypee, are you PPRuNe's full-time, off-grid spoon-whittler, living in the depths of the Forest of Dean or some such rural backwoods idyll?

I guess you witnessed a typical energy-bleeding 'base height brawl' with few options left to the contestants except patience...and fuel?

[Bob Viking]

Maybe it was just some pairs CAS?!

BV

[Courtney Mil]

Uninstrumented, ground-observed debrief. Wish I could do that.

[Runaway Gun]

Apparently gliders enjoy thermals.

[BEagle]

Courtney Mil wrote: Uninstrumented, ground-observed debrief.

Rather like those bull-$hitting ACM debriefs many of us suffered before the days of ACMI...:hmm:

A pity we didn't have regular access in the UK as it would soon have sorted out the truth. I remember the snort of derision in the DDS cabin at Deci' from one Fg Off Nav at the ridiculous Fox2 claim made by one 'T*ny-the-p**f', who then tried to give him a hard time. But Jerry stood his ground and the DDS data proved him correct after something of a 'robust discussion'. "You guys run a pretty tough debrief", commented the Spams against whom we'd been doing our DACT.

Which is probably true, given the sickening "Gee, you guys were awesome" stuff we used to hear during 'CFM' debriefs at Incirlik.

[TEEEJ]

Safetypee wrote

With age comes weakening eyesight as might degraded recognition skills, but were you really flying Mig 29s?

Possibly F-15s out of RAF Lakenheath? You might also have seen F-22 Raptors as they are currently deployed at RAF Lakenheath.

The F-22s went through the Mach Loop on the 26th April.

oCF1trDfN0A&feature=related

[Courtney Mil]

Rather like those bull-$hitting ACM debriefs many of us suffered before the days of ACMI...


In my early days that may well have been the case - for all I knew then - but the standard really improved. I was taught to draw the fights before the ACMI debrief; that focussed the mind rather well.

At Tyndall we had our own ACMI and not long after that we introduced RAIDS to the RAF. Not only did all that improve the quality of the debriefing, it also made people a hell of a lot better at reconstructing fights and running proper debriefs.

[safetypee]

I never experienced ACMI, but I suspect that more often it was uses to determine what happened (as did many verbal debriefs), and thus missed the opportunity to understand the 'how and why' which contributes to real learning.
Too often theory dominated teaching, at the expense of application.

Theory (pre flight briefing) can be covered with an egg and a doughnut - hole in the middle. The surface of the egg depicts the range of flight paths for an aircraft with excess energy - use the vertical; the doughnut, an aircraft with less capability the need to turn and roll. The close range, guns zone for dissimilar combat is given by the combined volumes of the egg and doughnut; a winning position is achieved by attaining a suitable point of intersection.
The skills involve judgement of the opposing capability, and where, when, and how to manoeuvre on your 'surface'.

Skills of application can be developed with simple flight practice: starting from loose line abreast the trainee barrel rolls around the target; repeat for turning flight, and then again with the target looping and barrel rolling.
Counter manoeuvres involve the target flying the profiles and the trainee responding with a similar manoeuvre.

Perhaps the ACMI systems are more a battle management tool, opposed to 'mixing it' close in. The more that computers are used to depict what happen, then the less focus on the close range stuff and the how ... We rarely fight the war that we plan (train) for.

As my Sgt Pilot instructor noted after an aerobatic sequence flight, "we don't teach all of the students that because we might be fighting them one day"; ergo there was portions of level flight between manoeuvres.

[safetypee]

Thanks TEEJ.
Mig 29, perhaps not, no smoke, but they were very noisy and appeared relatively small.
F15 unlikely as the fins were canted out; and usually the F15s carry external stores.
F22, possible, but with such acclaimed performance how did the fight degenerate to a low speed energy deficient situation :=
Does showing the bullet path on the HUD help energy management - it's like trying to poke a tiger with a piece of string.

Definite need for a repeat flight in this part of the country; and based on what was witnessed, I would put money on a Typhoon in a mixed environment.

[OK465]

ACMI was actually adopted when it was found difficult to keep the WSOs from eating the doughnuts.

[Tourist]

Possibly the gayest Mach Loop visit in history there from the F22s

[Courtney Mil]

Safetypee,

I think you've got ACMI all wrong, it is a far more flexible tool than you seem to think. Yes, as it's used at, say, Red Flag style excercises, it is very good at showing how teams were "managed", SA building and how their targeting worked. However, it is also excellent at the knife fight in a phone booth level, showing manoeuvre, energy management and weapons employment. You can even punch up the cockpit view. The instrumentation is detailed enough to be able to analyse aircraft handling.

Like any tool, it is only as good as the user and it is only one part of the complete debrief. Gunsight and radar video and individual input are still essential elements. Just sitting there and watching the God's eye view or the shot summaries will teach you nothing.

Probably slightly wasted on 1v1 because most ACLs/instructors should be able to do their job without it. That said, it is still a great teaching tool for those learning BFM and those learning to teach it.

[OK465]

Does showing the bullet path on the HUD help energy management - it's like trying to poke a tiger with a piece of string.

I didn't know anyone who used only the 'hotline' symbology in the F-16A. Selecting both the 'hotline' and the LCOS display together (and putting the aircraft generally where you knew it had to be in the first place) was probably a preferable option and could be reasonably effective. Or you could go straight LCOS for less clutter.

In any case, the 'hotline' spaghetti display has given way to the 'funnel' in the newer models. It's so effective and intuitive they've quit practicing gunnery on the dart altogether.

There are two things that help energy management.....your left & right hands.

[MACH2NUMBER]

CM,
Totally agree with you. During my Tyndall tour, just prior to yours, ACMI was already available for basic F15 student debriefs, it was a brilliant aid. The RAF only caught up, later on this.
The USAF had a more structured training plan by the mid-80s, using ACMI for basic and multi combat training. However, I did find that my basic recall was better than most USAF IPs, maybe because with ACMI they didn't really need it.

[TEEEJ]

Safetypee wrote

Thanks TEEJ.

You are very welcome.

Nice shot of one of the F-22s in the Mach Loop at following link.

Fox2 :: View topic - F-22 Raptor (http://www.fox2.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=32383&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

From

https://www.flickr.com/photos/48737680@N00/26570680672/

[TEEEJ]

Nice four-ship at following link. F-22, F-15s and Typhoon. No Squadron markings on Typhoon.

Image too large for PPRuNe rules.

http://www.lakenheath.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/2016/04/160426-O-ZZ999-001.jpg

From

Raptors and Eagles and Typhoons, oh my! (http://www.lakenheath.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123473016)

[Darren_P]

On April 26, the Raptors, alongside RAF Typhoons and F-15C and F-15E fighter aircraft from the 48th FW, all trained together in an area of Wales known locally as the "mach loop." Here, the Airmen were able to integrate and practice maneuvers in an austere environment much different from their home station in the "sunshine state."

A bit harsh calling Wales austere.

[Mogwi]

Most enjoyable debrief I ever had was from the only Skyhawk pilot to survive a 4 v 2 on 8 June 82. Only 10 years, 98 pints of scrumpy, 4 bottles of wine and one of port after the event. Now great friends!

[safetypee]

Early morning West of the Malvern Hills, well 0900 Thurs 9th, entertained by an tail-chasing (cine weave?) session, cumulating in close range 1v1 at a respectably low altitude.

Lesson about reversal still to be learnt, but forgive me if this was a mistaken view of modern low speed scissors in a gun environment - too close for a short range missile.

Based on the wing platform, straight trailing edge, and highly swept tailplane, the aircraft were Mig 29 / variants. Also by the noise - wonderful, no stealth qualities there, as witnessed by the neighbours in nightdress and hair curlers muttering about the apple harvest.

Any squadrons visiting the U.K. at this time

[Pure Pursuit]

Gentlemen, yes the two who disturbed the tranquility of the lands behind the Malvern Hills at 1615 today.
Apart from disrupting a quiet afternoon in the shed reshaping wood, the combat skills exhibited were woeful.

In a close-contact defensive guns environment get into the vertical before loosing all excess energy, and if you continue to turn don't get so slow that there are few options remaining.
You were too slow. :sad:

If there is any doubt that you have forced a fly through never reverse. Consider an early vertical, rolling, scissors manoeuvre as an alternative.
You reversed. :=

No wonder that you dived into an adjacent 'humbly' CB, and then continued a northerly tail chase around the bubbling clouds.
You will have to repeat the excersise as soon as possible, and consider dissimilar aircraft types for opposition.

With age comes weakening eyesight as might degraded recognition skills, but were you really flying Mig 29s?

Ahh WIWOL

I assume that you meant ‘losing’.... 😉

[Pure Pursuit]

Courtney Mil wrote:

Rather like those bull-$hitting ACM debriefs many of us suffered before the days of ACMI...:hmm:

A pity we didn't have regular access in the UK as it would soon have sorted out the truth. I remember the snort of derision in the DDS cabin at Deci' from one Fg Off Nav at the ridiculous Fox2 claim made by one 'T*ny-the-p**f', who then tried to give him a hard time. But Jerry stood his ground and the DDS data proved him correct after something of a 'robust discussion'. "You guys run a pretty tough debrief", commented the Spams against whom we'd been doing our DACT.

Which is probably true, given the sickening "Gee, you guys were awesome" stuff we used to hear during 'CFM' debriefs at Incirlik.

Times have moved on Beagle! The USAF debriefs that I’ve been to, mainly F15C and F22, have been nothing less than brutal. The perception that we Brits are better than them is old and inaccurate.

[tartare]

I looked at the Cubic website.
Can ACMI reproduce a 3D type view of the fight on a TV monitor in the crew room afterwards for debriefs?
The views in the Cubic promo videos all seem to be 2D eye of god type view.

[West Coast]

Times have moved on Beagle! The USAF debriefs that I’ve been to, mainly F15C and F22, have been nothing less than brutal. The perception that we Brits are better than them is old and inaccurate.


Curious how Beagle always is Johnny on the spot with a Yank tale. Downright curious that.

[Cows getting bigger]

I can confirm that in the few ACMI debriefs I observed, I never heard anyone say "Gutsiest move I've ever seen". I can also confirm that, despite most intense desire, they did not involve Kelly McG. :eek:

[tartare]

...I am very embarrassed to say Cows, that was what made me ask the question...
But seriously, can ACMI show a 3D view similar to the Top Gun debrief graphics, where red air and blue air are shown in x, y and z axis - and 3D paths through space shown?
I imagine so - and assume it can rewind, fast forward and zoom as needed?

[Cows getting bigger]

Short answer - yes. But ACMI is 1980s technology and it's moved-on some.

[Bob Viking]

It would be fair to say that ACMI debriefs have moved on slightly since Top Gun.

The aforementioned RAIDS pods and similar varieties are useful for large exercises where you have dissimilar types.

I can’t tell you what the Typhoon system looks like (I haven’t seen it) but the Hawk T2 system records everything digitally on one cartridge. And I mean everything. With no need for a pod attached to the aircraft. Clearly it only records T2s though.

In the debrief facility you can display every HUD and MFD from each aircraft. You can then select any page that was or wasn’t displayed.

You can view fights in 3D and use any map or imagery as a background if needs be. You can even look from a cockpit view from any aircraft and pan around to see any angle.

It is so good and records so much the only problem is tempering your debrief so people don’t fall asleep.

US pilots are well versed at running good debriefs but UK pilots are also taught from an early stage how to manage an effective debrief as well.

I’m so glad things have moved on from drawing ribbons on the board. Just think of all the ink we save.

BV

[BEagle]

West Coast, how many CFM debriefs did you attend at Incirlik?


Thought so....

[safetypee]

Ladies, Gentlemen, I doubt if the short spat above could be resolved by ACMI - no need to replay old arguments.
However, as I suggest that it is unlikely that neither one or other of the fractions were over Herefordshire yesterday, I wonder who was - #22.

Are the technicaly dominated (cost driven) modern pilots forgetting that on occasion this type of flying is just good fun.
Debrief, “did you enjoy that”. :ok:

[RimBim]

Thanks team, for saying how good ACMI, ie., RAIDS is for debriefing and thence future training (by saving the sortie as avi or the debrief files for 3D or 2D viewing).
Speaking as the Civvie bloke who used to haunt your RAIDS kit; mending it, explaining it and trying to STOP YOU BREAKING THE CARDS!
And eating lots of CQWI doughnuts....

[West Coast]

West Coast,how many CFM debriefs did you attend at Incirlik?


Thought so....

Why do you always take the opportunity to slag the Yanks? A Yank run over your dog in the big war? A female USAF 1st lieutenant gain the advantage in 1V1?

You deliver on time, you always seem to have a story that fits the theme of the thread and takes a dig at the Yanks. Funny how one person can have so many stories. And to have such a memory as to recall an off the cuff comments many decades later...

Other than taking notice of naming a plane a nimrod, US folks don’t seem to find the need to slag your lot. Matter of fact, most of your lot don’t seem find the need to follow your lead.

[phil9560]

Wonder where Courtney has gone ? Always enjoyed reading his posts.

[melmothtw]

Wonder where Courtney has gone ? Always enjoyed reading his posts.

He disappeared shortly after the Brexit referendum that will have turned his ex-pat life upside down. No doubt, he's spent the last two years frying bigger fish than PPRuNe. I miss his contributions also.

[BEagle]

Ignoring West Coast's daft nonsense...

In the early 1980s, I was fortunate enough to have a week of DACT with the 527th TFTS at Alconbury. They were highly professional aggressors in their F-5Es, but the call of "Atoll...Atoll" became rather common until we devised other tactics.

Their debriefs were rather polite and we asked why. "Politics", they told us - "Some of our customers don't like to hear the truth!".

So we asked for honest, gloves off debriefs and learned a lot. They were also appalled to learn of the g restrictions which our F-4s had to use, to eke out fatigue life. Hence no guns jinks to try and defeat a guns kill, for example. "What's the point of your government sending you to Aggressor training if they make you fly with one arm tied behind your back?", was the comment - to which we could only but agree.

Compare those professionals to the back-slapping, high-fiving antics of many of the Incirlik mob and, sorry Westie, they were in a different league to those numb nuts who couldn't tell a Blackhawk from a Hind. Or the ANG F-16 colonel who begged the UK jets to stir up trouble in Iraq, "Or we don't get to drop a bomb before we go home....." :rolleyes:

[West Coast]

He disappeared shortly after the Brexit referendum that will have turned his ex-pat life upside down. No doubt, he's spent the last two years frying bigger fish than PPRuNe. I miss his contributions also.

I don’t know how accurate they are, but his profile indicates his last post was yesterday.

[SASless]

Westie.....sometimes it is far better to consider the source and simply ignore the post.:E

[melmothtw]

I wasn't aware of that West Coast. Very glad to hear it. Was certainly aware that I hadn't read anything from him for many months.

[m0nkfish]

safetypee, with the best will in the world, please understand that things have move on significantly since the days of the lightning. We all have a huge amount of respect for what people did before us, but you cannot sit in your back garden and judge what you see happening above you. Technology is now generations ahead of what you will have flown, and it has changed, to some extend, what you might consider to be the 'basics' of BFM. How about saying it was great to see a couple of pilots enjoying themselves over the Malvern Hills? That would have read better than your dribble about pulling the nose up in 'Close-contact defensive guns environment' situation (WTAF?). By all means, drink some whiskey and spin some dits, but don't come on here and slag the current generation off, from my experience they are exceptionally dedicated and talented individuals.

[melmothtw]

The thread that dates back to April 2016, Airpolice? The question (by another poster) was where Courtney has got to 'recently'. Read the thread indeed.

[phil9560]

I don’t know how accurate they are, but his profile indicates his last post was yesterday.

I can't find it ??

[West Coast]

I can't find it ??

I looked again and the profile still says yesterday was his last post, however a search of the past year doesn't reveal any posts from him.

Maybe a moderator now?

[phil9560]

Love a good mystery :)

[exmanman]

I looked again and the profile still says yesterday was his last post, however a search of the past year doesn't reveal any posts from him.

Maybe a moderator now?

I think Nutloose may be able to answer

[melmothtw]

Not a problem, Airpolice. It is a doozey of a mystery indeed.

[mgahan]

Back to the original discussion on debriefs. Using the MLat technology ( as deployed in ranges such as Pax River and 29 Palms) it is possible to record the activity in 3D at one second intervals and then use graphics technology to give accurate and "exciting" debriefs. There used to be some playbacks on the Sensis website but they do not seem have transitioned to the Saab site. Unfortunately the files are too big to post.
MJG