UK's Carriers Left to Rust.

[Courtney Mil]

This is an interesting development. Of course, if Scotland were to leave the UK, then they probably wouldn't get to build any of the UK's ships.

Rust at Rosyth: Furious unions say flagship Navy carriers being built at Rosyth will be left to rot if Clyde shipyard jobs are axed - Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/rust-rosyth-furious-unions-say-7833348#8owGKuXK4LuoLR1x.97)

[CoffmanStarter]

Mutinous talk from the GMB ... Anyone know how to 'Hot Wire' a carrier ;)

[KenV]

We call this preserving the industrial base in the US. It requires some very hard decisions at the highest levels of government to do this. The US lost its ability to build strategic transports when the C-17 line closed last year. The assumption is that it can be resurrected at some future date, but it's not entirely clear that is possible. On the shipbuilding front, we're down to two shipyards that can produce nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers and there are lots of hard decisions being made to preserve them. The Russians lost their ability to build large Navy ships decades ago, and their little adventure in Crimea/Ukraine was at least partially aimed at regaining that capability. Sadly for them, that adventure also cut off access to Ukrainian marine gas turbines, and combined with the cut off of German marine diesels, their shipbuilding industry is in dire straits because they have no (modern) indigenous sources for these major ship components.

[Chesty Morgan]

Mutinous talk from the GMB ... Anyone know how to 'Hot Wire' a carrier ;)
Of course, doesn't everybody?

[CoffmanStarter]

OK Chesty you're in ... I've got a rather large pair of Bolt Cutters ... Let's see how our OC PPRuNe Raiding Party, Courtney, wants to play it :ok:

[PDR1]

The Blair government recognised this and published a policy paper called the "Defence Industrial Strategy" which codified (for the first time in the UK) the concept that certain industries and capabilities were nationally-significant strategic assets that should not be permitted to wither or be foreign owned.

On becoming Minister of Defence in 2010 Liam Fox (being a brainless arse who was under the impression that every day was "bring your best buddy to work day" in the Ministry of Defence) scrapped this policy as "ideologically unsound" saying that it was "socialist garbage" to even have such a strategy to interfere in the operation of the market. It was his view that Her Madge should always buy her military equipment off-the-shelf and from the lowest bidder, irrespective of nationality and regardless of the strategic consequences. Camoron, being very nearly as brainless in all respects, backed him in this in an act of neglect of his responsibilities for the defence of the realm that should really have resulted in some mild rebuke (like being hung, drawn, quartered and then having his head placed on a spike in whitehall as an example to others).

That this was a "bad idea"[tm] was a view which had cross-party support expressed loudly and frequently, for example in the 7th 2012-2013 session Defence Select Committee Report which said:

We believe that the absence of a defence industrial strategy which supports appropriate national sovereignty puts the UK at a disadvantage against competitor countries. Furthermore, we do not understand how we can have confidence in a national security strategy which does not show a clear grasp of what is needed for the defence of the United Kingdom, and how this can be ensured. We recommend that the Government reconsider the wisdom of not having a defence industrial strategy.

But wisdom and the camoron administration are essentially complete strangers. So whilst the USA (as standard-bearer for free-market capitalism) protects its strategic industries with rigid legislation like the Title 10 commitments [eg 10 USC Sec. 2464 and 10 USC Sec. 2466] the camoron administration carries on as a paid consultant and advocate for chinese industry and US defence contractors. To suggest this is less than ideal would be like calling the shooting down of MH17 an act of mild social deviation...

PDR

[Out Of Trim]

Camoron, being very nearly as brainless in all respects, backed him in this in an act of neglect of his responsibilities for the defence of the realm that should really have resulted in some mild rebuke (like being hung, drawn, quartered and then having his head placed on a spike in whitehall as an example to others).

There's still time...

How come, whenever call me Dave has to make a decision he always makes the wrong one! Is it something in his Etonian schooling, that makes him unable to analyse a situation properly and, then use some common sense in the decision making process. :ugh: :rolleyes: :ugh:

Perhaps he can use some of the £12 billion overseas aid budget to enable our shipyards to not be closed down. Some strategic industries need to be protected for the national interest.

[KenV]

The difficulty in setting up protected strategic industries is that unions will take advantage of the situation not to preserve the industry nor the defense capability the industry provides, but to preserve union jobs. Given the political power of UK unions, I can understand how some politicians would balk at creating protected strategic industries.

[NutLoose]

Ahh.... another Trade union boss for life no doubt, rattling his sabre.. If they did sit and rust at least he would be secure in his job for life, while his members get thrown to the wind..

And as for the Wicked Witch of the North, It is about time she realised that her "power base" is less that the total that voted for UKIP, between her and that cretin Corbyn with his "majority of squat" they both make me want to throw up..

rant over :)

They remind me of the miners, another bunch of herberts, that believed the world owed them a job.

[sitigeltfel]

Perhaps he can use some of the £12 billion overseas aid budget to enable our shipyards to not be closed down. Some strategic industries need to be protected for the national interest.

Money that the government has to borrow, yes borrow, to hand over to tyrants, dictators and despots. They know where their next S class Merc is coming from!

[Heathrow Harry]

Interesting piece on the BBC website:-

Shipping forecast: visibility moderate to poor

Douglas Fraser (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/correspondents/douglasfraser) Business/economy editor, Scotland 25 April 2016From the section Scotland business (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/scotland/scotland_business)

It's less than eight years since the Ministry of Defence forced the merger of shipbuilding rivals BAE Systems and Vosper Thorneycroft. It was judged a waste of public money to retain so much capacity for the Royal Navy. Even after that had slimmed down the workforce and capacity, the Ministry of Defence decided to close one of the remaining shipyards.
Portsmouth took the hit with a decision more than two years ago, but the workforce that straddles the Clyde between the Govan and Scotstoun yards in Glasgow also lost hundreds of jobs.

The unions accepted that, on the basis that there would be security for the remaining jobs. Yet much of this seems to be getting thrown up in the air. Having spent a lot of time and money in reducing the scale of naval shipbuilding, the Treasury has commissioned a National Shipbuilding Strategy.

Drumbeat

This announcement was buried in the paperwork published with the Budget last month. The review is to be completed by the Chancellor's autumn statement. Led by industry veteran Sir Alan Parker, it is hard to fathom what it's trying to do. The official position is that it's to "look at the potential to build a new complex warship every two years". That's a much slower 'drumbeat' than we've been used to. "World-class ships...while ensuring value-for money", said the MoD media statement, when the idea was first set out by the Chancellor, in January last year. It went on to say this would "ensure continued investment in UK warship production, help maintain jobs, provide new apprenticeships and develop advanced engineering skills". Yet isn't that what had already been decided for the Clyde yards?

Jobs were lost on the Clyde but long-term security was expected Trade unions point to the proposal for a "frigate factory", costing £200m and at Scotstoun, providing a covered shed facility for all-weather construction. More efficient shipbuilding could, at last, win some export orders, at which British shipbuilding has done very badly of late.
Shipyards in Germany, France and Spain are contracted to build warships for export, but rarely British ones. The Royal Navy commissions very high-spec ships, and uses EU procurement rules on strategic industries to ensure they are built in Britain.

So the Clyde yards don't have to compete internationally for that work. And other navies don't want to pay the high price of British standards and work. Ensuring capacity for exports is another part of Sir John Parker's (vague) remit. But instead of the £200m export-efficient frigate factory proposed by BAE Systems and heartily endorsed by unions, half that amount is being committed to upgrading Govan for the Type 26.

Anti-submarine

Whitehall's Budget austerity means that, instead of 13 ships planned, only eight are now to be ordered - eventually. The start date appears to have slipped from this year to the back end of next year, with a slower drumbeat meaning fewer jobs are likely. The timing, the workforce and the commitment to retaining skills is down to negotiation between BAE Systems and the MoD. The UK government says that the Type 26 commitment to the Clyde yards has not changed. It has placed orders for five Offshore Protection Vessels, to keep the yards busy-ish. They may be nice-to-have, but on a tight budget, their strategic value isn't clear.

The MoD is not saying where it wants to build the Type 31, which is a new designation for cheaper, lighter, less well-armed ships. Five of them are supposed to join the sophisticated anti-submarine capability of the Type 26s.

Northern powerhouse

The Parker Review is being seen by unions and industry experts as a way of opening up options for expanding warship-building capacity at English yards. It's worth remembering that the intention to have a review was set out by George Osborne in January last year and in Portsmouth, when Conservatives faced the prospect of punishment by voters for the Hampshire shipyard's closure. Portsmouth has not fully closed down. The yard may not be building ships, but it is being leased for repair work. Bear in mind also that Mr Osborne has a big personal and political project to boost the economy of the "northern powerhouse". So shipyard capacity in Merseyside, Cumbria and Tyneside could come into play, perhaps to build the Type 31, or parts of the Type 26.

And there's another aspect of the strategic decision that isn't openly admitted: UK ministers said, before the independence referendum, that yards in an independent Scotland could not expect Royal Navy orders. With that political issue still very much alive, the MoD could use the Shipbuilding Strategy to open up options for warship building in England, rather than being solely reliant on Scottish yards.

All this is clearly part of a political game, at which trade unions, BAE management and the MoD are experienced. It's no coincidence it's happening less than two weeks from an election and two months from the EU referendum. This is when all the players can get maximum leverage over the Treasury.

[Hangarshuffle]

Not sure there is a capacity to build in England anymore. River Tyne's ability has long gone- there is a relatively small yard at Hebburn and I forget its name (A and P maybe) that built I think the Flight Deck sections of the recent new carriers. Not sure about them building anything -no slipway. Swan Hunter are long gone and its workforce and architects mostly retired I think. Site was bulldozed and the cranes shipped to India.
Teeside does a bit of offshore work for O and G industry- jack up rigs I think. Hartlepool only dismantle ex USN last time I heard. Nothing at Sunderland at all really, although the Pallion yard still seems to operate as a small scale steel fabricator for offshore O and G but no cranes there as I recall.
Think that eras really gone for NE England. Taken for granted? The workers and skills have all dispersed or retired or are dead.
Cumbria - well not sure about them they haven't built anything large for the RN since the Albion and Bulwark.. Birkenhead hangs on but I have my doubts for their capacity. Belfast - mostly dismantle these days I recall.
England neglected this industry. Should have been nurtured, but then over a billion in taxpayers hard earned was spent propping it up for a while, then Thatch pulled the plug on it in the eighties and down it went. Steels going the same way now.
Over to China. Communism and or the Far East won in the end in this trade war.


KenV are you having a laugh about the unions? They're gone mate-outlawed and de-fanged by Thatch. Membership is a shadow of what it was.

[Courtney Mil]

Coff,

Big bolt cutters, black balaclavas, fake IDs, heaters and someone that knows how to drive a ship that isn't really finished yet. Anyone know if the engines are fitted yet? That might affect the getaway plan.

[Out Of Trim]

I read that HMS Queen Elizabeth's engines, or rather Electric motors powered by Gas turbine generators are fitted. However, ship still being fitted out.

Not sure if Windows 10 installed yet! Be careful to not overload the system by plugging in any iPods or iPhones if the radar is running...


:E

[Courtney Mil]

Excellent, I have the original Windows 10 installation disc. I think we're on.

[MG23]

How come, whenever call me Dave has to make a decision he always makes the wrong one!

Cameron is a Europhile. If you believe in the EU, there's no point worrying about keeping military production in the UK, because there'll soon be no UK military, only EU.

[NutLoose]

Couldn't Barrow do it, I know they build ships that sink, but would they have the infrastructure and also more importantly the deep water channel to accept it.

Also as they built sections at Portsmouth wouldn't they be better equipped to complete them, plus they just dredged the channel for it.


And Courtney, do be serious, you do not think the MOD would use something as modern and up to date as Windows 10, surely XP or one of the free systems would be a cheaper option.

[Geordie_Expat]

Coff,

Big bolt cutters, black balaclavas, fake IDs, heaters and someone that knows how to drive a ship that isn't really finished yet. Anyone know if the engines are fitted yet? That might affect the getaway plan.

Cmon guys, half a dozen Liverpudlian scallies would have it away in no time.:E

[NutLoose]

But how would they steer it, the first one onto the bridge would have the wheel away..

[BATCO]

Windows 10 or XP?

Like the catapults: 'fitted for but not with'. Yeah right.


Batco

[peter we]

There was no requirement, of any sort, for catapults in the signed contract.

'fitted for but not with' was something invented by a politician after the event.

[Courtney Mil]

XP and Vista might have some advantages. Apart from anything else, neither would mysteriously download an update and announce that it will shut down and restart in 5 minutes. That might seriously bugger up our exit from whichever harbour its in at the moment.

But I just had another though. YES, ANOTHER thought - I had one in 1989. Once we liberate the ship, what will we do with it? Just been watching 007 and we might want to consider the highest bidder.

[Courtney Mil]

Cameron is a Europhile. If you believe in the EU, there's no point worrying about keeping military production in the UK, because there'll soon be no UK military, only EU.

That's nothing. Do you realise that the EU is now trying to impose laws limiting the max g available to fighter aircraft in case the pilot blacks out? They also want to increase the minimum width of supermarket parking spaces so that they can accommodate German cars. They are working on legislation to force schools to teach German. They have already agreed new regulations to ban Gloucester Old Spots because their bacon contains too much flavour.

But, on the brighter side, it is wonderful that Scottish unions will now dictate UK Defence Policy. Excellent!

[PDR1]

XP and Vista might have some advantages. Apart from anything else, neither would mysteriously download an update and announce that it will shut down and restart in 5 minutes. That might seriously bugger up our exit from whichever harbour its in at the moment.


Neither will Windows 7/8/10 if you configure them that way. Even commercial Enterprise configurations point the update system to an internal update service (rather than the microsoft one) so that the company has full control over which updates are rolled out and when. That's how particular Windows lockdown configurations can be certified for use at essentially all national security levels.

PDR

[PDR1]

There was no requirement, of any sort, for catapults in the signed contract.

'fitted for but not with' was something invented by a politician after the event.

I don't think any politician invented this at all - do you have a cite for that?.

I'm not familiar with the detailed QEC contract terms, but "fitted for but not with" has been a fairly common concept in UK and US military equipment for decades. In my time on the Harrier programme well had this concept for fitments like TIALD, the "big" (mk107) engine and numerous pieces of assorted avionics. The MOD only bought 40 mk107 engines, and a core part of the GR9/9A upgrade programme ensured that every airframe was fitted for the big engine even though at any given time only 20-25 aircraft would actually have one installed (making them GR9As rather than GR9s). If the big engine was taken out of an aeroplane and the small one installed it became a GR9 again.

It would not surprise me in the slightest to learn that the design configuration of the QECs explicitly made provision for fitting cats and/or ski-jumps at some later date simply because it would have been sensible to do so, in the same way HMS Ocean's design allowed for the possibility being re-roled as a Harrier platform.

PDR

[Courtney Mil]

What? Windows lockdown? Enterprise configurations? Coff, I hope you get all this. I thought this was going to be a simple smash and grab and then sell them to the highest bidding scrap merchants. No one mentioned Windows lockdown.

If we configure our firewall outreach access protocols properly, could this still work?

[ImageGear]

....and when the locked down version of Win10 gets hacked, and the boat disappears off to a small unfriendly port in the Eastern Med, will it be missed? :E

Imagegear

[NutLoose]

It depends on if it's running Google Earth as well..

Still, with running Windows you could log in remotely from your F-35 and control the ship, thus alleviating the need to clutter the place up with fisheads.

[tucumseh]

In April 2003 the official line was that adding catapults/arrestor gear was a nil cost upgrade, if required. It only takes one senior man to say it, followed by dirty looks at the horrified faces in the audience, to make it policy!

In early 1997, the in-house (Boscombe) prototype mission system for an RN helicopter was built around the forthcoming Windows 98. The famous logo appeared when initialised. Licensing problems meant contracting bespoke software to industry, which was years behind as they weren't a patch (!) on Boscombe.

[pax britanica]

The words strategic and UK do not co exist. Why wings about the detail of carriers no steel means no no ships no subs no aircraft ( engines gear etc) no tanks no guns no swords no spears, a new bronze age awaits us altho the French can still provide a nuclear deterrent as they wont want the fallout from any attack on southern England.

[CoffmanStarter]

Don't worry Courtney ... Once we secure the Bridge, I have a USB Flashdrive that is capable of overriding most installed OS's. So far it's worked on a Vauxhall Corsa, Costa Vending Machines and Mrs Coff's Neff oven ... So I don't see a problem with a part build RN Carrier :ok:

I've also got a large tarpaulin ... So we can cover it when we 'park' it (sorry I'm not fully conversant with technical ship driving talk) on the Cuckmere here in the deep South of England ... there is also a rather good pub for a post Op celebration :ok:

Good call on the need for "Heaters" ... as it does get a bit nippy up north :}

I thought we might 'invoice' T1stSL for the 'Recovery' rather than sell for scrap ?

Sorry Tuc for interrupting your serious contribution ;)

[NutLoose]

It's got the makings of a good film, stealing a carrier back out from under the noses of the Jocks, the trouble is knowing Hollywood they would ruin it by probably swooping the carrier for some old destroyer, the Clyde for some river in China, possibly like the Yangtze, and then make her run the gauntlet of Chinese takeaways in the dark...

[Surplus]

THE GMB Union have issued an extraordinary warning shot across David Cameron's bows, as they warn that BAE job losses at Rosyth could see the new flagship supercarriers being held hostage.
Read more at Rust at Rosyth: Furious unions say flagship Navy carriers being built at Rosyth will be left to rot if Clyde shipyard jobs are axed - Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/rust-rosyth-furious-unions-say-7833348#7Xr4FgmeY3z7wQFb.99)

How very nice of Rosyth to offer to store the carriers for us, should save a packet on mothballing fees. Shame that their storage might mean that the 26's might have to be built 'dahn sarf' due to lack of room at Rosyth.

[Pozidrive]

That's nothing. Do you realise that the EU is now trying to impose laws limiting the max g available to fighter aircraft in case the pilot blacks out?...


Nothing to do with the pilot, its about passing the emissions test.

[keith williams]

We will not get the F35s to fly from them until about 2050 (sorry I'm probably being a bit optimistic there), so there is no rush to get the carriers out. We'll save a fortune in fuel costs simply by leaving them where they are for a few decades. Then the only problem will be updating to Windows 2050.

[PhilipG]

Does taking the Carriers Hostage mean that the GMB is also taking on responsibility for the nuclear Subs moored at Rosyth?

[Stitchbitch]

Nothing to do with the pilot, its about passing the emissions test.

Fixed it for you... "Nothing to do with the max Gz, its about the pilot passing the emissions test".

[wonderboysteve]

They remind me of the miners, another bunch of herberts, that believed the world owed them a job.
My Grandad was a miner called Herbert. What's your point?

[PDR1]

Did he borrow Bob's torque wrench?

PDR

[Out Of Trim]

OK,

Infil

Suggest, we borrow a Chinook and stealthily (ha) approach direct to ship at 03:00 hrs on Sunday using borrowed NVGs. The skeleton crew of fishheads will all be drunk and asleep...

[Tourist]

OK,

Infil

Suggest, we borrow a Chinook and stealthily (ha) approach direct to ship at 03:00 hrs on Sunday using borrowed NVGs. The skeleton crew of fishheads will all be drunk and asleep...
Demonstrating a sad lack of specialist knowledge and strategy.

Assault on a Friday afternoon, obviously, because then you will catch them drunk and asleep with a couple more days before they even notice the ship has gone.....

[Tourist]

The jokes about windows are unfortunately a bit close to the truth. I remember a very disappointing exercise where Bulwark bobbed around with no engines, ops capability or comms due to a blue screen of death.

[KenV]

KenV are you having a laugh about the unions? They're gone mate-outlawed and de-fanged by Thatch. Membership is a shadow of what it was. Ummmm, no. I'm responding to the OP which states "Furious unions say flagship Navy carriers...will be left to rot....." That does not sound "outlawed" nor "defanged" to me. Further to the point, I thought this was about Scottish unions. Can the UK prime minister really outlaw/defang unions in Scotland? I really don't know.

And finally, my point was that it is easy for a strategic defense industry to morph into a jobs program. Even though unions tend to have much less political clout here in the US than in the UK, this remains a problem here in the US. This suggests it is also a problem in the UK and suggests why there is a lot of political pressure to NOT have protected defense industries.

[Heathrow Harry]

In the USA it's the members of Congress who run the jobs creation programmes............

[Out Of Trim]

Demonstrating a sad lack of specialist knowledge and strategy.

Assault on a Friday afternoon, obviously, because then you will catch them drunk and asleep with a couple more days before they even notice the ship has gone.....

Really?

Does that mean the Cocktail Parties start on Friday Morning? I mean,the Sun's not even over the yard arm so to speak... Seeing image of matelots lying about in pools of spilt pink gin and barrels of rum! :D

[Tourist]

Ken

1. Scotland is a part of the UK, so yes.

2. Unions are very defanged here, far more so than in the US actually, but they still talk a good fight.

p.s. I'm right wing, but even I think that unions should have a bit more power.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Briefly returning to the Thread subject; Rosyth has the only dock capable of taking the QE Class. That also means we are stuck with it for all Upkeep Periods and certain DEDs (or whatever they're called this week). There's a dock in GUZZ that could be extended, at a cost. To get in or out, though, it means passing Cremyll Shoal and they're too big to do it. Hence the departure from Basing real carriers in Devonport. How the Deities conspire against us.

[Hangarshuffle]

To call all coal miners who worked within the UK Herberts (which is a sort of scroaty, no gooder insinuation word) is deeply insulting and very disingenuous.
Its true of course there were some bitter industrial disputes, but only 3 or maybe 4 in total, nationally in the 20th century (STBC).
1926 of course....(Now a 46 year gap) Then was it 1972 and I think 1974? (I always think of this as one long dispute). (Then another ten year gap). And finally the end of serious production after 1984-85.
Think most miners had the countries interest at heart.
Never ever mentioned of course is that so dangerous period in early 1944. We practically ran out of energy at this time-our war effort would have collapsed (was about to collapse). Many, many brave men died unsung, unknown and underground to beat or destroy previous production records to supply our coal, to meet this challenge. Bevan boys drafted in as well... I have some photos knocking about....totally put aside their own safety for the war effort. Its documented of course.
There's a healthy place for trade unionism in the UK, y'know ?- all sides just have to apply some grey matter to make it work.
But we are a different country now to then -I concede it. We in the UK are very divided now.
The legacy of the supposed benefits and the personal reputation of Thatcher(ism) is slowly unravelling-I knew it would eventually.

[Hangarshuffle]

Further to GBZ post above about the dry dock the answer is simple but probably impossible to square - make the UK what it should be - a United Kingdom. But we are not-we are splitting and rapidly fragmenting all over the place. A true legacy of Thatcherism is how it (absolutely and very deliberately) destroyed the UK.

[ShotOne]

"Absolutely and deliberately destroyed the UK..." Odd you should blame Mrs T while Tony, who did more to break up UK than any leader in history, doesn't get a mention. And how did we we get from carriers to coal miners? If you're trying to imply that both coal miners and shipyard workers are vital to the nations defence you have some convincing to do. The Clydesiders are hardly doing this because of a commitment to defence. More of an invitation to get the next ones built in Korea

[Hangarshuffle]

Yawn and sleep.

[Courtney Mil]

Interesting idea that anyone would go into politics with intention of deliberately destroying anything to do with the country and its industries. Sometimes it's all too easy to confuse personal feelings about people with what they actually do or did. And what has that to do with a fractious Union in Scotland?

It would be tempting to ask why the UK Government would base procurement policy on anything other than carefully considered military need. Or is the MoD, once again, to become an instrument of supporting British industry over and above its own needs?

Hangarshuffle, I invite your response, especially as you were complaining about exactly this a few months ago.

[MSOCS]

Go easy on the Night Nurse Hangarshuffle. You might fall off that soapbox of yours!

[MACH2NUMBER]

IMOP - Corborons, Comerons, Stugerons, they are all completely useless to our nation's defences. Is there a single politician who can save us?

[ImageGear]

"Cometh the hour, cometh the man", from whence I know not. My great hope is that the man appears before the hour.

I might be completely wrong but if it all were to hit the fan, the Flaxen Haired one might stand up and be counted. :rolleyes: or he would claim his birth right.

ImageGear

[ORAC]

To call all coal miners who worked within the UK Herberts (which is a sort of scroaty, no gooder insinuation word) is deeply insulting and very disingenuous.
Its true of course there were some bitter industrial disputes, but only 3 or maybe 4 in total, nationally in the 20th century (STBC). 1926 of course....(Now a 46 year gap) Then was it 1972 and I think 1974? (I always think of this as one long dispute). (Then another ten year gap). And finally the end of serious production after 1984-85. Think most miners had the countries interest at heart. TUC | History Online (http://www.unionhistory.info/timeline/1939_1945.php)

Until 1941 when the Soviet Union entered the war, communists in Britain, having little commitment to the war effort, refused to be bound by the national unity consensus and in particular the ban on strike action. During the first few months of the war, there were over 900 strikes, almost all of them very short but illegal nonetheless. Despite the provisions of Order 1305 there were very few prosecutions until 1941 since Bevin, anxious to avoid the labour unrest of the First World War, sought to promote conciliation rather than conflict. The number of strikes increased each year until 1944, almost half of them in support of wage demands and the remainder being defensive actions against deteriorations in workplace conditions. Coal and engineering were particularly affected. A strike in the Betteshanger colliery in Kent in 1942 prompted the first mass prosecutions under Order 1305. Three officials of the Betteshanger branch were imprisoned and over a thousand strikers were fined. Such repression and the general 'shoulders to the wheel' approach to industrial production in support of the war effort (strongly backed by the Communist Party after 1941) did not stop strikes. The fact that so many strikes took place in the mining industry was due in the main to the fact that the designation of coal mining as essential war work entailed the direction of selected conscripts to work in the mines ('Bevin boys'). This was very unpopular among regular miners.

In 1943 there were two major stoppages, one was a strike of 12,000 bus drivers and conductors and the other of dockers in Liverpool and Birkenhead. Both were a considerable embarrassment to Bevin since they involved mainly TGWU members. 1944 marked the peak of wartime strike action with over two thousand stoppages involving the loss of 3,714,000 days' production. This led to the imposition of Defence Regulation 1AA, supported by the TUC, which now made incitement to strike unlawful.......

[Heathrow Harry]

"designation of coal mining as essential war work entailed the direction of selected conscripts to work in the mines ('Bevin boys'). This was very unpopular among regular miners."

having talked to a few "Bevin Boys" it was a damn site more unpopular amongst the draftees - they really thought it was more dangerous and less comfortable than being above ground in the normal military.......

[CoffmanStarter]

Courtney ...

In spite of our recent japery ... it would seem the T1stSL and OC 617 Squadron have now acquired a copy of PhotoShop :ok:

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/IMG_1374_zpseti5i7wi.jpg

Image Credit : MOD

And that's certainly not the Cuckmere where she is 'parked' ;)

Best ...

Coff.

[aw ditor]

A Dry Dock somewhere in mainland' Europe might oblige if Rosyth is not "available". St Nazaire? Presumably they have repaired the gate(s)?

[MPN11]

Dazzle Camouflage? How very retro!!

Or is that shadow?

[Hangarshuffle]

I'm just saying, as ever, to call all the miners in the UK "Herberts" is disrespectful and very uncorrect. Amazingly, you may find, if you were ever as so motivated to research the columns of the dead on your local war memorial-you will find a real political cross section of our nation - and believe me they wont all be true blue flag saluter's. We are a true cross dressing humorous nation and long be it.
Got pictures somewhere of March 1944 where the local "Herberts" broke all records for production, around my way- for the national war effort. At a cost in their mates health and lives, of course.
Anyway-up the Republic.

[Turbine D]

Hangershuffle,
I'm just saying, as ever, to call all the miners in the UK "Herberts" is disrespectful and very uncorrect.
I am with you on this comment, but not being from coal mining areas in the UK, but growing up in a coal mining township in the USA, probably not much difference.

I am going to be much more blunt relative to the use of the word "Herberts" than you were directed at those that like to use the derogatory word.

Apparently to unknowing and unintelligent folks this is somehow a cute characterization of workers in an industry that supported England and the USA and other countries in times of greatest need. Miners at the Coverdale Mine, south of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, where I grew up, said it was safer to be in the above ground battle of WWII than working in the mine, but they couldn't get release from mining duties during the war. Today not a lot has changed in the coal mining industry.

So I ask, when airline pilots go on strike for shorter hours, better working conditions, higher pay and better benefits, are they known as "Herberts" or :mad:-heads, today? When that happens does the government step in and nationalize the industry like they have done in the coal mining industry or railroad industry?

I went to grade school with coal mining sons and daughters, their future was less than assured. When there was an accident at the mine the sirens around town wailed. If it was a miner/miners disabled or killed, the family had to move out of the company owned housing (shacks) to make room for those not disabled with no benefits or no place to go. There was a famous song by the title of "You Owe Your Soul To The Company Store", and that was so true.

My uncle worked in the coal mines in Pennsylvania and West Virginia, He died at age 48 from black lung disease along with many more miners. I don't think that condition affects pilots that don't understand the hazards of coal mining or the real life that miners lived producing a product you couldn't fly without.

So my thoughts are these, if you want to diss workers in an industry you have never been associated with, start in the industry you are associated with and before you do that go back and study history before you were born to get a full picture before you write.