Eye in the Sky - Alan Rickman's Brevet.

[Slickster]

Can anyone more learned than me identify Alan Rickman's brevet in the film "Eye in the Sky"? Despite reasonable military general knowledge, the insignia, and location was not one I'm familiar with. I did suspect a production error, but thought it a bit of an obvious mistake to make.

200

[RAFEngO74to09]

British Army Parachute Wings Qualification Badge - it should be worn on the sleeve.

[Old-Duffer]

It looks like a gold wire mess kit version to me.

The Rhodesians used to have an arrangement where someone who had distinguished themselves in action wore their wings above their left breast pocket - WOC - Wings on Chest.

Is Rickman Army in this film or Royal Marines?

Old Duffer

[Slickster]

He's a lieutenent general in the Army. I've never seen anyone in the UK Armed Forces wear parachute wings on their breast.

[Melchett01]

Usual media artistic licence, aka getting it wrong. Mess kit / ceremonial wings rather than the regular uniform wings and incorrectly placed. Only time I have ever seen UK para wings worn there are in old photos of SAS personnel in WW2.

Makes you wonder how much artistic licence has been taken with the rest of the film.

[NutLoose]

It makes total sense for it to be on the arm as a Pilot or any form of aircrew could also be qualified paras and you would then have a conflict as to where to place it with their other wings.


More

http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/parachute-wings-worn-on-chest.237659/page-4

[BristolScout]

As realistic, in fact, as a lieutenant rpv pilot disobeying an order from a full colonel? Apart from that, a good movie imho.

[Sloppy Link]

Early on in the formation of the Parachute Regiment, as whole Battalions were re-roled, Para Wings were worn on the left breast, before anyone calls "utter tosh" I have a phot of my father, Royal Sussex, who was re-roled in this form of dress.

[Tankertrashnav]

I have seen photographs of the tropical uniform worn by Lt Col B.K.Blount who was a member of SOE. His para wings are mounted above the right breast pocket, which I have never seen before. I have also seen pictures of other SOE personnel with para wings more conventionally worn above the left breast pocket. However, as in the case of WW2 SAS and early parachute regiment personnel mentioned above I think this practice was restricted to the early days of airborne formations, and certainly British para wings are nowadays always worn on the sleeve.

I understand the film was shot in South Africa. Do SA paras wear their wings on the breast, American style? If so that may explain the error

[Melchett01]

Early on in the formation of the Parachute Regiment, as whole Battalions were re-roled, Para Wings were worn on the left breast, before anyone calls "utter tosh" I have a phot of my father, Royal Sussex, who was re-roled in this form of dress.

Historically, as I noted, some units did wear them on the left breast - my grandfather who served in 2 Para wore them on his sleeve as we do now. But the OP was asking about current order of dress being depicted in this film. And based on current orders of dress, the film is incorrect. Of course, it also assumes Rickman's character had served on an airborne unit, other wise he would have only been entitled to wear the 'light bulb' rather than full on para wings if all he had done was to complete the 'Jumps Course'. But that's another argument, and if you mentioned that on Arrse it'd be like sticking your head in the lion's mouth, so I'd steer clear ... I'm sure that nobody would wear the incorrect Parachutist Badge just to try and gain a bit more credibility!

[SilsoeSid]

The wings worn by Alan Rickman in the op picture are No1 dress Para Regt wings. AR is playing a British Army Lt. General who is based in London and is clearly wearing No2 dress. In this day and age, the time setting of the film, para wings are worn on the right upper arm sleeve.

On the other hand, they could represent the Light Infantry (Skirmishers) para wings, however, they are also worn on the sleeve.

Para Wings can only be worn if you have qualified and have served in a unit where you could be expected to use your para qualification, otherwise it's just the lightbulb with no wings.

http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/badges-qualification/trades-brit2.jpg
http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/badges-qualification/trades-brit.jpg

[Tankertrashnav]

When I was in the Regiment, four new pilot officers fresh from Cranwell arrived at Catterick having done the "jumps course" as referred to by Melchett. All wore the full "operational" para wings on their sleeves, which was much commented upon. It was obviously incorrect, but somebody has issued them with these wings, so they carried on wearing them. One was still wearing them when he retired as a wing commander, as far as I am aware!

[Subsunk]

Not seen the film yet, but from the context of the posts here, it could be that Rickman's character has made an operational descent - the protocol for people who do that is that they are authorised to wear their para wings on the left breast instead of the right shoulder.

Obviously we don't see many of those these days but it was commonplace during WW2.

If Rickman's character is ex-Special Forces, they tend to put up the basic jump wings instead of SF ones on uniform to avoid drawing undue attention to themselves.

[ORAC]

From AARSE

""During WWII many airborne soldiers were given permission by their CO to wear 'Wings on Chest' this unofficial accolade was normally granted for operational jumps (in SOE this was normally granted after one operational jump). In the Airborne, RSR and SAS at the CO's discretion. At an investiture King George VI asked a couple of SAS Sgts if they were pilots - no sir came the reply we're in the SAS. The King ruled that only the RAF and Army aircrew could wear their brevets on the chest. This resulted in a long wrangle between the airborne, SAS, the War Office and the Palace - with Montgomery lining up with the Airborne Forces, after a long time there were perhaps half a dozen serving wartime SAS members who were allowed to carry on with the practice. In the 1970s in Rhodesia the Rhodesian SAS reinstated the practice of Wings on Chest (WOC) an honour that was valued more than some of the medals."

Wings on Chest - Airborne - WW2 Talk (http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/25307-wings-on-chest/)

[NutLoose]

Sub machine gun marksman badge lol, I bet no one ever got that with the Sterling.. The only people that I have ever seen hit anything at any distance with that weapon was the Star Wars Stormtroopers.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/a/a1/Storm1-vd.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20070130060442

[pr00ne]

It's a film, it's not real...

[SilsoeSid]

Subsunk;
Not seen the film yet, but from the context of the posts here, it could be that Rickman's character has made an operational descent - the protocol for people who do that is that they are authorised to wear their para wings on the left breast instead of the right shoulder.

Obviously we don't see many of those these days but it was commonplace during WW2.

If Rickman's character is ex-Special Forces, they tend to put up the basic jump wings instead of SF ones on uniform to avoid drawing undue attention to themselves

Utter tosh on all three accounts!

It took a number of operational jumps to be entitled to wear the wings on the chest.
It was not commonplace as operational jumps weren't that common.
It's not a 'tendency' at all.

http://i1.chroniclelive.co.uk/incoming/article7705963.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200/GL783831.jpg

However, elsewhere;

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_2015_07/sawingsd.jpg.c88f1875f7086733573b5427e0d39499.jpg

Captain M.E. Anderson, SAS Wings, South African Pilot wings, member of the SBS
SAS SA SBS Pilot - Great Britain: Militaria: Badges, Uniforms & Equipment - Gentleman's Military Interest Club (http://gmic.co.uk/topic/66287-sas-sa-sbs-pilot/)

[SilsoeSid]

Besides, rather than discuss the rights and wrongs of a film's costume department, howabout this one;

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/31/article-1371730-0B64FA7600000578-298_634x702.jpg

[Heathrow Harry]

Still space below his right shoulder for something shiny..........

[SilsoeSid]

I recall Nietzsche once commenting on dress regulations thusly; "There are no facts, only interpretations."
:ok:

[Finningley Boy]

He is in fact wearing the uniform of a Royal Marine Lt general, the wings I've never seen before.

FB:)

[SilsoeSid]

He is in fact wearing the uniform of a Royal Marine Lt general

Wrong material to be RM :rolleyes:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/08/02/article-2383542-1B1D5DE0000005DC-370_634x642.jpg

... and then there's the shirt & tie ...

[SilsoeSid]

Sloppy Link;Early on in the formation of the Parachute Regiment, as whole Battalions were re-roled, Para Wings were worn on the left breast, before anyone calls "utter tosh" I have a phot of my father, Royal Sussex, who was re-roled in this form of dress.

The problem with saying things such as that ...;

The 10th (Sussex) Parachute Battalion was an airborne infantry battalion of the Parachute Regiment, raised by the British Army during the Second World War.

The battalion was raised around volunteers from the Royal Sussex Regiment at Kibrit in the Middle East. Assigned to the 4th Parachute Brigade, they joined the 1st Airborne Division in Tunisia. The battalion fought their first action in Operation Slapstick part of the Allied invasion of Italy. They were then withdrawn to England at the end of 1943. Being held in reserve during the Normandy landings, their second action was in Operation Market Garden (Sept 1944) in the Netherlands.

The battalion landed on the second day of the Battle of Arnhem and unable to reach their assigned objective, it was gradually destroyed over two days of fighting. The surviving men managed to withdraw into the divisional position at Oosterbeek. After holding a position in the perimeter, the handful of men left were evacuated south of the River Rhine. The battalion never recovered from the heavy casualties, sustained during the battle and was disbanded. The surviving men being posted to the battalions of the 1st Parachute Brigade.
note: The 1st Airborne Division were carried to Italy by sea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Slapstick#British_forces


It would seem that your old man might have been misled in the sewing department SL as everyone in these pictures have their wings on their shoulders;

No 10 Platoon, B Coy, 10th Parachute Battalion, June 1944
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/No%2010%20Platoon%20B%20Coy%2010th%20Parachute%20Battalion%2 0June%201944_zpsuaj75uym.png

B Coy, 10th Para Bn, June 1944
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/B%20Coy%2010th%20Para%20Bn%20June%201944_zpslfz0qybz.png

Larger versions available on page 2 of https://paradata.org.uk/media/6670?mediaSection=Group+photos



You'll be telling us next that your father was always the only one in step ;)

[Finningley Boy]

... and then there's the shirt & tie ...

Indeed Sir I'll grant the shirt and tie look more like they come from the Army, but his uniform in Lovat Green as is that of his ADC, the Captain, who also wears the wreath encircled globe insignia of the RM on his lapels. Further, the buttons on both are Black, definitely Marines or possibly a Light Infantry Regiment, i.e. The Rifles. But all points to his being a Marine Officer.

FB:)

[BATCO]

Prince Andrew appears on the preceding page wearing the uniform of the Royal Irish Regiment.

Regards
Batco

[SilsoeSid]

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/~/media/royal%20navy%20responsive/documents/reference%20library/br%203/br3book/ch40.pdf


Parachutist Badge. The Army pattern parachutist badge, a parachute with wings, should be worn on the right arm 51 mm below the shoulder seam, by personnel who are qualified parachutists as follows:
(1) Blue and white tunics. The full sized badge in gold on blue. On white tunics the badge is to be mounted on Velcro to permit removal for washing.
(2) Lovat tunics. A two-thirds size badge in gold on green.
(3) Mess jackets. The miniature badge (length 51mm, height 20mm) gold on scarlet. On white mess jackets the badge is to be mounted on Velcro to permit removal for washing.
(4) Stone tunics and shirts. The full-sized badge in light blue/white on khaki drill.
(5) Combat Dress (PCS Jackets and Windproofs). The full-sized badge in black on green. If black on green badges are not available, the full-sized badge in light blue/white on khaki drill may be worn as an alternative.

You'll notice however that the Gorget Patches worn by AR's character have gold buttons, whereas the real RM Lt Gen parading with Prince Harry has darkened buttons :ok:
Wot! No lanyard ;)

[Genstabler]

Alan Rickman is not wearing any British Army uniform known to me and I was a soldier for 34 years. It isn't RM either. God knows what he's supposed to be.

[MOSTAFA]

Looks a bit Irish to me, very much like casting a 70 year old to play a Colonel and the least said for the badge type and placement of the better.

[BristolScout]

Out of interest, has anyone resolved the reason why RPV pilots and mission specialists wear flying overalls? Normal military working dress would be perfectly appropriate. I have this feeling that their airships have seen that the future is drone-coloured and want to preserve the concept of pilots being different.

[Heathrow Harry]

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2007/work.at.home/dilbert/images/day.4.jpg

[Tankertrashnav]

Alan Rickman is not wearing any British Army uniform known to me and I was a soldier for 34 years

Not only that but his hair is far too short. As far as I can tell, with army officers, the higher the rank, the longer the hair. Curling over the collar seems to be the norm for generals!

[Genstabler]

The shirt and tie are not from any British Army or RM uniform. Looks Dutch if anything. Dogs breakfast. Useless prop department.
Ttn. Ha ha ha ha!

[Melchett01]

So what we're basically concluding is that British military uniform is anything but uniform.

You only have to look at the photo of HRH to see the full spectrum. HRH's shirt collar is a traditional pointed affair whilst the chap behind is sporting some Apprentice-esque spread collar that wouldn't be out of place in Leadenhall Market once the trading desks were closed. There's even a Navy chap in a skirt and heels behind them. In fact I think the only place I have seen standardised uniform is in McDonalds. And they get more medals there too :)

[Wander00]

Looks like HRH is wearing black shoes - is my memory playing tricks, ISTR wearing brown Oxfords with Service Dress, but it might just be age

[Tankertrashnav]

Generally speaking you are correct, but black shoes are worn with service dress in the Royal Irish Regiment.*

As Melchett said - military uniform is anything but!

When I was a young Rockape I did the Infantry Platoon Commanders' Course at Warminster. Back in 1966 there were a lot more regiments than now, and when everyone turned up in service dress for the course photo there were hardly two the same out of around 60 of us! Freezing my whatsits off in a slit trench on Salisbury Plain in February was when the first germ of an idea of applying to go aircrew entered my mind!

*Oops - wrong HRH - you were talking about young Harry. Maybe the same rule applies to the AAC!

[Army Mover]

Harry was never badged as AAC; he always served as a Household Cavalry officer and would follow their Regimental customs; my experience of Army officers shoes were they came in many different shades of brown and bulling sometimes involved using both brown and black polish to achieve the desired colour.

[Genstabler]

Ttn. We may have been on the same Warminster course!

[Finningley Boy]

I thought the uniform was that of the RM, certainly his aid, wearing the same uniform has, seen in close up, the Globe insignia of the Marines on his lapels. It wouldn't be too unusual to have a Marine in charge of what really should have been an RAF operation anyway!? or do the Army/Marines also operate Reapers now?

The new VCDS appointed is a Marine, Gordon Messenger, don't know if he's a General or still a Lt Gen yet or if he has his obligatory Knighthood?

FB:)

[Tankertrashnav]

genstabler - Jan - Feb 1966 - my syndicate officer was an RM captain who thought I was an idiot (not far out at the time!)

[Genstabler]

Ttn. I think I must have been on the Warminster course before you. I certainly did Hythe at the end of 65. Bloody miserable weather as I recall, though I can't remember much about it at this distance. Good course though. It was my first formal military training for reasons I won't bore you with.

[MOSTAFA]

Still looks a bit Irish to me (the uniform that is).

[BristolScout]

Just a thought but, because of the contentious issues raised by the movie, maybe the producers didn't want to identify a particular unit for the good general, hence the mish-mash?

[SilsoeSid]

Bristol, that doesn't make any sense considering it is Helen Mirrens character calling for the immediate Hellfire engagement and her Corps is plain to see.

[skippedonce]

Edited to add, as the reference to the shoulder belt was apparently not obvious enough: If you're talking about the picture of Air Miles Andy...

He is in fact wearing the uniform of a Royal Marine Lt general, the wings I've never seen before.Which will be why he's wearing Army Khaki rather than RM Lovat Green, and the crown and 2 pips of a Colonel rather than the insignia of a Lt Gen, who would also have red collar tabs.

Still looks a bit Irish to me (the uniform that is).Yes, the bloody great silver harp on the shoulder belt is a bit of a giveaway!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f2/Royal_Irish_Regiment_Flag.png

[SilsoeSid]

He is in fact wearing the uniform of a Royal Marine Lt general, the wings I've never seen before.
Which will be why he's wearing Army Khaki rather than RM Lovat Green, and the crown and 2 pips of a Colonel rather than the insignia of a Lt gen, who would also have red collar tabs.

Still looks a bit Irish to me (the uniform that is).
Yes, the bloody great silver harp on the shoulder belt is a bit of a giveaway!



Soskippy, if AR is a Colonel;

http://lovelace-media.imgix.net/uploads/859/49b78160-c6c9-0133-82d0-06e18a8a4ae5.jpg?w=684&h=513&fit=crop&crop=faces&auto=format&q=70

What rank does that make HM?

http://images.watoday.com.au/2016/03/15/7280347/Article%20Lead%20-%20wide1006952274gnib4dimage.related.articleLeadwide.729x410 .gnihci.png1457990581802.jpg-620x349.jpg

[Finningley Boy]

Skippedonce,

I've seen a different film, the chap I saw (Alan Rickman) had the crossed rapier and Baton with crown above on his epaulette. Further his aid, wearing same uniform had the Royal Marines Globe encircled by laurel wreath on each lapel.

FB:)

[SilsoeSid]

Lanyard - The Royal Engineers lanyard is navy blue and worn on the right shoulder. Since 19th century plain lanyards were used for securing the jackknife which was issued to all mounted troops. It was intended to be worn around the waist but soldiers soon found it to be more convenient to wear it on the shoulder with the knife in the breast pocket.

http://rack.0.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE2LzAzLzE2LzM2L3JpY2ttYW5leWUuZjAxMjEuanBnCnAJdGh1bWIJ OTUweDUzNCMKZQlqcGc/39738367/c6d/rickman-eye.jpg

[barnstormer1968]

Genstabler.
You will find that no one wears a number 2 uniform you are familiar with anymore. The officers and other ranks number 2 unifiorms have been replaced with one common uniform.

The general consensus is that it's been issued for a few years now, but still hasn't correctly fitted or looked good on anyone yet :)

As with many other things it has a snazzy name too: Future army dress.

[Haraka]

Future Army Dress... Fad?

[Tankertrashnav]

Just a thought but, because of the contentious issues raised by the movie, maybe the producers didn't want to identify a particular unit for the good general, hence the mish-mash?

That may or may not be the case here, but it does happen. When I had a militaria shop, a chap who was doing props for a TV play came in and explained his problem. An ex soldier in the play was sitting looking at his old cap badge before throwing it in a bin, as he was disenchanted with his former regiment. The guy needed a badge which looked like an army cap badge, but wasn't identifiable to any known regiment. I found him something, and in the fullness of time I saw the play with the chap throwing my badge in the bin!

[5aday]

Any thoughts on the film? Marks out of 10?

[Haraka]

Apparently filmed in S.A. , pretending to be Kenya. (!)
I have a copy on its way , here to me in East Africa, which I await with interest.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

Now that we have started to tear this film apart on dress, I would like to see his medal ribands.

Aaron.

[SilsoeSid]

Now that we have started to tear this film apart on dress, I would like to see his medal ribands.

Aaron.

In that case Aaron, Google image search Alan Rickmansworth eye in the sky, find a picture, post it; then Google image search for British medals, find a picture of the chart, post it.

You can then decipher what he is wearing and post your result and if the interest is enough, we can discuss them :rolleyes:


What is probably more interesting is your use of "ribands";
Are they his medal ribands or his medal ribbons?
:hmm:

[KiloB]

Never mind the uniform flaws. An early scene was supposedly overflown by a pair of F14s. In a movie set in current times.
KB

[barnstormer1968]

Never mind the uniform flaws. An early scene was supposedly overflown by a pair of F14s. In a movie set in current times.
KB

There are still operational F14s flying. Where was the scene supposed to be?

[SilsoeSid]

:ok:KiloB
Never mind the uniform flaws. An early scene was supposedly overflown by a pair of F14s. In a movie set in current times.
Barns
There are still operational F14s flying. Where was the scene supposed to be?

According to the commentary, Iran.

KiloB, in current times, which Air Force fly F-14's ?
:ugh:

I believe that in the past 12 months they have gone through an upgrade programme :ok:

[KiloB]

I thought all the 14s were in the desert. If not, my bad. The scene was the first one at Creech.
KB

[Tankertrashnav]

Aaron and Silsoe Sid

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=alan+rickman+eye+in+the+sky&rlz=1C1CAFB_enGB603GB603&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=667&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiBxZjK0rvMAhUJIcAKHQ-eBdAQ_AUIBygC#imgrc=PEgt6amSYKTZlM%3A

Right, I've had a go, but I cant get a clear enough pic to be sure, but I think it goes something like, CB, GSM 1962, Afghanistan, Iraq, UN Cyprus (incorrect order if it is), ? , ?, QGJM, QDJM, ?

I really cant make out the ones I've marked '?'. Also they appear to be in two rows of five when it should be two rows of four and two at the top.

I call them ribbons by the way, but I have seen them referred to as ribands.

[SilsoeSid]

Well done TTN,

https://media.giphy.com/media/yoJC2iddl8Op3nEiI0/giphy.gif

[Tankertrashnav]

Well I know sod all about modern (ie post 1960) aircraft such as F14s, so I thought I'd have a go at the medal ribbons ;)

[teeteringhead]

TTN, although I - of course - bow to your superior knowledge on ribbons, may I make a first stab on the few that are visible on the picture on post #47.

At the end of the top row we seem to have a Gulf War 1 medal, followed by a UN Cyprus ribbon, which would indicate UN service in Cyprus post GW1, but not before. Possible I guess.

Stranger is the end of the second row which seems to be a ?BE ribbon, which should be early in row 1. Not too clear; the tab end of ribbons can often be - comme moi - odd foreign ones. Is there any possible foreign contender that looks a bit like an MBE/OBE?? Or are we giving too much credence to the wardrobe department ...........

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

I think it is;
CB, GSM 1962, Afghanistan, Iraq, UN Cyprus,
NATO Service Medal, Accumulated Campaign Service Medal, SJM, DJM, OBE(?)
Looking at post 47, I say OBE but it could be another of the BE series . If it is it is in the incorrect place.

I meant to say RIBBONS.

Aaron.

Calm down SilsoeSid.

[Wander00]

Perhaps we had better send this thread to Angels, the film costumiers, who won a BAFTA earlier in the year for their film costumes over many years. Maybe they need TTN as a consultant

[Tankertrashnav]

Actually I think others have done better than I have on this, cant fault your solution AARON- I blame my eyesight which is definitely not what it was! Yes that last one does look like an OBE/MBE but that would definitely be in the wrong place

[Phil_R]

A couple of years ago I worked on a production in which we were required to show a hypothetical UK military unit as it would exist in the year 2090. As part of this we did a fair bit of research into rank and unit insignia, and particularly medal ribbons as we wanted to show those which would survive until 2090, and include some new ones which might be developed in the meantime.

In general I feel that a reasonable effort was made to get it right, although the first day on set one of our actors, an ex army officer, immediately pointed out a glitch in the placement of ribbons on the jacket.

In the defence of the film industry in general, there are several problems:

- The history and traditions of the UK military in particular make it very, very complicated, as this thread illustrates

- The producers realise that their ability to make money out of the production is not dependent on accuracy, so they won't budget the time to spend to get it right, over the objections of the costume people, and

- Scripts are generally written long before the involvement of a military advisor. Advisors generally want paying (the assistance I've received here notwithstanding). At the point when major story decisions are made, the writer is often working at risk that the script may never be produced, so it's difficult to justify the cost.

P