What rank is "Master Pilot"

[Fonsini]

While flying back from blighty yesterday I got chatting with a dear old thing who said her now sadly passed husband attained the rank of Master Pilot, flying amongst other things Canadair Sabers and Meteors - his name was Pete Foard, perhaps someone here knew of him. I've never heard of that rank before - can anyone school me ?

[Tiger_mate]

Master Pilot is a Warrant Officer equivalent. The last one, a Wessex helicopter pilot retired in about 1980. Many Master pilots were fast-tracked commisioned when the goal posts changed. All RAF pilots are commisioned since then; theoretically politically driven by who can be responsible for Nuclear weapons. I dare say the thread will now degenerate into the usual and frequently exercised pros and cons of the need for all RAF pilots being commisioned, as the British Army still has NCO pilots.

[Wensleydale]

A "new" SNCO equivalent rank system for aircrew was used in the RAF between 1946 and 1949. It did not prove successful and only the Master Aircrew rank survives. The link gives a good description of the ranks and rank badges.


NCO Badges - RAF 3_P (http://www.rafweb.org/Ranks-Uniform/Ranks6C.htm)


http://britairforce.com/images/raf_rank_ac_photo.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

There is a book, "I flew with Braddock" who was a Master Pilot on Lancasters. There was also Master Navigators and Master Signallers all epitomizing the pinnacle of professional aircrew.

[Fareastdriver]

In 1961 going through my advanced training on Vampires O/C GD suggested that I could be a Sergeant Pilot owing to my dismal OQs score, (wine women and song, etc.). I turned down this offer on a matter of personal pride as my father was an ex NCO pilot who had been commissioned. The Air Force being short of recruits, National Service had just been abolished, they were therefore forced to keep me on as an APO.

I should have taken it up. I would have been paid more, lower mess bills, looser women and I wouldn't have spent servitude as a V force co-pilot. When I left the service they couldn't care a damn what rank I was and judging by SFFP I would have got a better pension.
Such is life.

[ian16th]

Tiger Mate gave 1980 as the demise of the last master Pilot, does anyone know when the last Sgt and Flt. Sgt pilots and navigators were?

I can remember Sgt pilots on the Lincolns at Lindholme, 1954-56. A significant number of them were Polish. DFM's were also quite common among them.

Sgt Wop/AEO's were still quite common when I was on Valiant's, 1959-62, but I can only remember one Flt. Sgt navigator at that time.

[NutLoose]

Yes the Wessex Master Pilot was Taff Walker and he was a lovely man.

[ShyTorque]

He was, Nutty but sometimes his bark was louder than his dog's!

[5aday]

My father was M/Plt David Morton and he resigned from the R.A.F. in 1968 whilst flying Varsity and Hastings at the N.B.S. at R.A.F. Lindholme.
He went on to join S.O.A.F. flying Dakota, Skyvan, and Caribou until 1973.
He often said that M/Plt was the best rank in the R.A.F., and I think the only ground tour he had in the R.A.F. was as part of a Thor crew at Bardney, part of the Hemswell group.
I inherited his logbooks and the types he flew reads like a dream.
At least to me....

[NutLoose]

Shy,

I do wonder what ever became of him post Bristows, Shula was his dog :)

5aday,

He appears to have had a long and interesting career.

[stumblefingers]

One of my instructors on the Dominie at 1 ANS, RAF Stradishall in 1968 was a Sgt navigator. His previous tour had been on Andovers. There was also a Master Navigator in Command Ops at HQSTC RAF High Wycombe in 1968.

I too flew with Taff Walker on the Wessex at Odiham, and he was a lovely bloke. The only problem was that he was really deaf; if you climbed into the LHS after he had vacated it, the intercom was so loud it blew your head off!

[ancientaviator62]

On 47 Sqn at Fairford when we first got the Hercules we had a F/S Nav. This would have been 1968/9.

[huge72]

These days the rank held and recorded on documents, 1250/F90 etc is MACR, Master Aircrew. It has become the generic rank, Master Pilot, Nav, Eng, Sig, AEOp and ALM were all titles that have all now been consigned to history with the advent of the Weapon Systems Officer/Operator and a common Brevet. It has to be said that even though our IDs said MACR most of us still used the titles according to our trade long past the advent of the single Brevet.

As for Taff he was truly a legend and I was lucky enough to both know him and take part in his retirement flypast at Odiham, photos of which having been posted here before.

[5aday]

At Ballykelly, we had three John Wood's on our crew on the Shackleton Mk2.
( I was so junior and I thought my world had come crashing down when I saw the inside of a Shackleton and then I didn't quite understand why 204 sqn put all these Woods on the same crew - but that was explained to me later)
One was a F.Sgt Navigator, one a comissioned AEO, and one a F/Sgt AEop or maybe he was a F/Sgt Signaller.
Although the first John Wood was the junior of the Navigators, the comissioned Nav was often prone to air sickness and vomiting so the N.C.O. nav seemed to take the majority of the responsibility for navigating by jumping around in each of the Nav's seats whenever it was deemed necessary, like Stage 2.
The day I handed back my immersion suit and helmet and drove away from BK and on to Larne and Stranraer and then then down to St. Mawgan for the Nimrod O.C.U. I breathed a huge sigh of relief. But that is another story which involved Headley Court.
This was all circa 1970 with Fg. Off Hunter as the skipper.
Dave M

[Tankertrashnav]

Wensleydale's link explaining the post war system is very interesting, particularly as it illustrates the badges. In many years of dealing in military insignia I have only ever seen these badges once. I was at a militaria fair in Gloucester and a dealer who specialised in RAF items had a full set for sale, for an eye-watering sum well into the hundreds.

I did once have a 'Palestine 1945-48' GSM which was named 'S2 J.Bloggs, RAF', which puzzled me until I tumbled that the chap was an S2 (sergeant) signaller - again, the only example I have ever seen.

[Wensleydale]

TTN: They come up very occasionally on e-bay and sell for quite big sums which is a pity because I would like a set for the Airfield Heritage Centre that I am involved with....complete sets are well into 3 figures. But if somebody has one that they would like to donate to a current Heritage Centre then pse PM me (he wrote in hope).


I must admit that the rank structure and badges were rubbish! Aircrew 2 had a badge with 3 stars; Aircrew 3 had 2 Stars; and Aircrew 4 had 1 star....meanwhile Aircrew 1 had 3 stars and a crown - clear as mud!!

[Danny42C]

Many a Master Pilot/Nav/Signaller/etc ended his days in the '60s and '70s in ATC - and damn' fine Controllers they were, too ! There were many Czechs and Poles among them, as I recall.

The "Four-star Brandy" system (as it was derisively dubbed) did not last long and would be long forgotten, were it not for the retention of the Master title as its last remnant.

Danny.

[Krakatoa]

Aircrew Cadets had no Stars just a blank patch.

[MPN11]

Ha, Danny42C, I was going to make the same point!

One stupidity was that MACR were allowed to do Approach, but an ATC WO wasn't [although that subsequently changed]. The philosophy seemed to be that [regardless of their aircrew role] they knew more about aviation than a full-time ATC SNCO/WO. How they therefore allowed us baby Direct Entry POs to control aircraft remain a mystery :)

[sitigeltfel]

Many a Master Pilot/Nav/Signaller/etc ended his days in the '60s and '70s in ATC - and damn' fine Controllers they were, too !

I served beside a number of them and a few had WWII experience. Never a dull shift in a quiet tower listening to their tales and banter. One character who sticks in my mind was "Butch" Bellamy, sadly no longer with us.

[MPN11]

Fareastdriver ... the Javelins' rapid move was clearly in people's minds when, at the end of that decade, the ability rapidly to reinforce the Far East was planned and exercised. Exercise BERSATU PADU, which I sadly missed as I was tourex by then, must have been 'rather interesting'.

[Danny42C]

MPN11,
... How they therefore allowed us baby Direct Entry POs to control aircraft remain a mystery...
No mystery - we were yesterday's men and our time was up. The baby ATCs and pilots (lads and lasses) coming along had to learn (I hope we looked after you ! *), and there's only one way to do that - in at the deep end !

Spare no sympathy for pilots. They are all born with a strong built-in sense of self preservation (otherwise they should not be pilots and will not survive for long as such). In any case, they are spoon-fed by ATC to an extent which we earlier generations can only marvel at.

Note *: the later meteoric careers of some who passed through my hands are a constant satisfaction to me - not that I claim any causal connection, you understand.

Danny.

[5aday]

Another such was M/Plt Norman Gunnel (Luqa ATC) whilst working Malta Zone and who managed to stop a BA Trident from starting engines for London until I was on board. (About a 30 minute delay as I had miscalculated my time in the bar ( and the No 1 Hostie at the time is now my wife of 42 years). She wanted to close the doors as she thought I was just meeting her for a coffee in the terminal and didn't know I had a ticket and I was tourex. After the second bottle of Krug she proposed to me - just as the wheels went down for 27R at LHR.
Thank you Norman - wherever you are............you were a star.

[FE Hoppy]

My dad was a master pilot. He remustered to radio/radar fitter but still wore there rank and wings which caused much confusion.

[Danny42C]

sitigeltfel (your #20),
...few had WWII experience. Never a dull shift in a quiet tower listening to their tales and banter...
I always said that every ATC Tower should have at least one old "hairy" in Post. Then when the New Duty Instructors started shooting their lines (to impress our baby Controllers, particularly those of the smaller, shaplier and sweeter-smelling variety), we could chip in with: "Come off it, Sonny ! I was roaring round the skies when you were crapping in your nappy ! I've Been There, Done That - and I'm not having any of your old bull round here !"

Danny.

MPN11,

Of course ! I'd put my reply to FED on this - the wrong - Thread. Fixed It.

Thanks nevertheless !

Danny.

[Wander00]

M Plt Jackson at the Towers in the mid 60s, and two FS QFIs but I recall one going off for a couple of weeks and coming back a fg off, I think the other did too - both on 1 Sqn at Cranwell.

[JW411]

MNav "Junior" Rainville still appears in one of my Argosy log books in 1971.

[Miles Magister]

There was a Master Pilot teaching ground school at Linton On Ouse in 1982, but I can not remember his name.

MM

[Out Of Trim]

There was a Master Pilot Blackwell in ATC at RAF Manston. I think he was still there when I left in September 1982. I believe that he had flown Spitfires, Vampires and Hunters.

He once chewed me out for pronouncing Schedule the American way. I never did that again! I also recall he was an Arsenal fan.

[kaitakbowler]

ISTR a Master AEo at Scampton, or was he a MEng? on 230?

It was a while ago, 1980, thats my excuse.

PM

[Grobling About]

Out of Trim, my late father knew a Master Pilot 'Blacky' Blackwell at Butterworth (Malaya) in 55/56. He often spoke of a flight with him in a Vampire T11. We often wondered what had become of 'Blacky'. Or maybe there was more than one.

[DC10RealMan]

Master Pilot Jack Meakin of Brize ATC in the mid 1970s.

Ex-Javelin I believe?

[MPN11]

OMG ... Aussie MPlt "Black Jack" Meachin, my mentor on my first tour at Strubby (65-67)? Same one?? Or another??

Built like a small house, permanent 5 o'clock shadow? Can't remember whether he was DFC or DFM ... but he was an A/sqn ldr on Typhoons in WW2, and after the war was deemed unsuitable to be an officer. He reenlisted as a sgt plt, and made MPlt. He just loved us baby plt offs, straight out of Shawbury!

Cracking good tutor, though, and a hard but fair bloke as one would expect! Once we kids had made the grade, he was a great colleague. Cock up, and ... well, he was an Aussie professional!!

[knarfw]

Master Pilot is a Warrant Officer equivalent. The last one, a Wessex helicopter pilot retired in about 1980. Many Master pilots were fast-tracked commisioned when the goal posts changed. All RAF pilots are commisioned since then; theoretically politically driven by who can be responsible for Nuclear weapons. I dare say the thread will now degenerate into the usual and frequently exercised pros and cons of the need for all RAF pilots being commisioned, as the British Army still has NCO pilots.



There was a Master Pilot at West Drayton in 83/84, can't for the life of me remember his name but he worked in LATCC(Mil) somewhere iirc.

[outhouse]

My dad was a NCO pilot during WW2 flew as aircraft commander in Lancaster's for two years and was lucky to survive.
After he had completed his two toures he was transferred into the US Army Air force to assist and help with the coming invasion of France. This gave him a chance to as he said give some pay back.
As a young chap early 20,s who had had the **** shot at him over France and Germany he had at last the opportunity to give some payback.
The US Army Air force trained and gave him a Mustang plus two wing men and a open page, KILL GERMAN airman and ground troops and equipment. They were very successful and I had some of his gun camera film and it was very interesting.

His final input into WW2 was flying transports bringing our our chaps back home.

After the end of WW2 he did not fly again and did not volunteer any info to me. it was only after his death that I was able to put his amaising history together.

[dmcg]

Master Pilot Gus Beveridge worked at LATCC Mil. He was on South Sqn 1985/6.

[knarfw]

Master Pilot Gus Beveridge worked at LATCC Mil. He was on South Sqn 1985/6.

That sounds familiar.

[MPN11]

outhouse ... transfer from RAF to USAAC/USAAF sounds quite incredible, let alone the transfer from RAF Heavy Bombers to USAAF Mustang flight leader. I suspect a slightly inflated family history, unless you have any documentation to prove that.


Ex-ATCO/ATCAs ... there were hundreds of them!! Bless them ... highly valued mentors to ATCOs and ATCAs alike.

[outhouse]

One, I do not have to verify any comments I have made.
Two, I am rather pist that you would suspect that my father would not have not done what was a mater of military record. having both British and US decorations.
Three, During WW2 a lot of **** happens that was maybe in the present times, rather strange to you. Most of these chaps are now dead maybe its best they are.
Having spent two years myself in the US military and a secondment in Vietnam in sixty, six flying a Huey may be you would like to question my providence.

Over to you what have you done??

[Rigga]

I think the second to last Master Pilot still active/flying was Alec Riddoch at Shawbury where he was the Unit Test Pilot on Gazelles and Whirlwinds - I think he retired in 79/80?

[Brian W May]

Having spent a few years as a Master, I must confess it was a great rank to have.

[Pontius Navigator]

Outhouse, indeed. My father in law was a naval rating and survived a second sinking in the channel when his destroyer was sunk. Several US Army personnel serving one of the guns lost their lives.

US Army - gunners - RN Warship . . .

[MPN11]

One, I do not have to verify any comments I have made.
Two, I am rather pist that you would suspect that my father would not have not done what was a mater of military record. having both British and US decorations.
Three, During WW2 a lot of **** happens that was maybe in the present times, rather strange to you. Most of these chaps are now dead maybe its best they are.
Having spent two years myself in the US military and a secondment in Vietnam in sixty, six flying a Huey may be you would like to question my providence.

Over to you what have you done??

I only did 30 years' commissioned Service in the RN and RAF, but that was post-WW2.

Anyway ... Clearly there is an interesting family history there ... I just found the RAF Bomber Pilot to US Fighter Pilot transition a little 'unusual', to say the least. There is clearly a VERY interesting story to be told, if you have the time and are willing to tell us. I suspect that 'not-British' will feature ;)

Apologies if I have offended you. It was such an unusual story.

[outhouse]

Just to explain,
It may seem strange but at the time during WW2 the high mortality rate of bomber pilots and crew was beyond the ability of the training command to maintain supply of suitable replacement of aircrew. The option was to transfer from other commands including the Fleet Airmen into bomber commend. Thus fighter pilots and other command pilots ended up in Bomber command. Later.
At the time when other needs require these pilots were transferred back into the original areas of expertise. with the experience of combat and the need then of helping our US Conrad's a number of RAF pilots were posted to various US units to help and give guidance to what was effectively a inexperienced unit.

That,s it, I think I can say now that those involved are now passed away, they gave all to protect what they felt was the correct thing to do. As most of us have done in present times, least I know I have tried to do.

Safe flight and following winds.

[kintyred]

"There was a Master Pilot teaching ground school at Linton On Ouse in 1982, but I can not remember his name."

He was still there in 1984 dispensing pearls of wisdom in the JPIT (procedures trainer)

[polecat2]

MPN and Outhouse...

W/C Tom Neil, BofB and Malta pilot, served with the US 9th Air Force during 1944. Look for his book "The Silver Spitfire".

[Slow Biker]

If my memory serves, in the late 60s there was a cpl medic at Wildenrath with a pilot brevet and a good few medal ribbons. Perhaps he had re-joined or re-mustered from aircrew. I'm sure there is someone out there who knew him.

[Geordie_Expat]

There was a Cpl in the Ops block at Wittering in 1966 with pilots wings. I seem to remember he was Canadian but could be wrong.

[ricardian]

At RAF Cosford 1959-61 there was a Canadian whose name I forget but he was an RAF Sgt Pilot from WW2, he taught us 16 yr old Boy Entrants how to touch type.
At RAF Sharjah 1963-64 I got a gash flight in a Twin Pioneer which was resupplying the Trucial Oman Scouts up country; it was flown by an RAF Master Pilot.
At RAF Akrotiri 1965-67 my boss in the commcen was Sgt Norman Kerr, ex-Boy Entrant who wore the Air Signaller brevet

[DON T]

Slow Biker,

The Cpl may have been a Dental Branch Cpl called Pop Newton, who trained near the end of WWII but was too late to be 'needed'. He left the service about early 70s.

[The Oberon]

In 1967 there was a Cpl. storeman in ESG at Akkers. He sported a pilots brevet and a chest full of bling. He was also rumoured to be on first name terms with the Staish.

[Lima Juliet]

I can't help thinking we missed a trick here; we could have changed the rank of WO caterers to "Master Bakers"...:E

[radar101]

M Plt Jackson at the Towers in the mid 60s, and two FS QFI's but I recall one going off for a couple of weeks and coming back a fg off, I think the other did too - both on 1 Sqn at Cranwell.

Was that "Negative G Jackson" the flypast spotter? His company built my house in Sleaford in 1984. A lovely man - as long as you stayed on his good side.


His sons still run the business.

[Wander00]

Radar - don't know about that, but he was deficient one ear lobe

[ancientaviator62]

When I joined the RAF in 1958 we had lots of chaps with medals and brevets of lowly rank in various trades, including one in the cookhouse.

[MPN11]

At Manby in 65 we had an SAC in the Guardroom (Trade Assistant General, IIRC) with plenty of medals and pilot's wings. The story was that after he was de-mobbed he found life outside the RAF unhappy, so just settled for a lowly role in familiar surroundings. PTSD? Who knows?

[teeteringhead]

Taff Walker was certainly the last M Plt in a flying post, and Alec Riddoch may well have been the penultimate. When Taff retired, he was front cover picture on Air Clues - are these available on-line anywhere?

Taff's legendary hearing (or lack of!) had its advantages in Ground Cats. I remember a conversation similar to this ..........

Taff: OK boy, what's the single engine max continuous limits on the Wessex?

TH: Mumble, mumble, mumble .....

Taff: Wassat boy? Did you say 2700, 710 and 26750?

TH: Yes Taff! :rolleyes:

Taff: Well done boyo - exactly right!! :ok::ok:

When I was first on 72 (early 70s), we also had a Flight Sergeant nav - whose name escapes me for now.

Will check logbooks tonight and see if I can identify him, and when I last flew with him and Taff.

[orgASMic]

Would any of you fine people know of a Master Navigator A Leddy? He would have served at RAF Akrotiri at some stage, possibly having remustered as ATC. If so, please PM me. Thanks.

[oscara]

On 47 Sqn at Fairford when we first got the Hercules we had a F/S Nav. This would have been 1968/9.
That would be Mick Dunn, he lived next door to me at Fairford.

[ancientaviator62]

oscara,
it was indeed. Last saw him during the build up to GW1. We landed in Gib to pick up some KD for the gulf and he came out to us on his bike to say hello. Alas due to coriolis or similar effect he fell off halfway there and we had to render 'all assistance short of actual help' due to an outbreak of mass hysteria at the sight.

[langleybaston]

Its only Coriolis if he fell leftwards off the bike whilst turning anticlockwise of course.
Gib being N Hemisphere.

[ian16th]

Seeing as Master Aircrew lived on so long, why were Master Tech's done away with in 1964?

[MPN11]

Master Tech? That's a new one on me, but then I didn't join until 1965.

How about Master Controller? USAF has those!
https://www.vanguardmil.com/products/usaf-master-air-traffic-control-badge

[Vortex_Generator]

Regarding the post from outhouse, there were a fair number of Americans during WW2 who originally joined the RAF/RCAF. When the US entered the war they were given the option to transfer to the USAAF, which many took. Some of those serving with Bomber Command remained with their squadron after transfer in order to complete their tour, then flew subsequent tours with the USAAF.

[radar101]

Radar - don't know about that, but he was deficient one ear lobe



Yep, sounds like him.

[ian16th]

Master Tech? That's a new one on me, but then I didn't join until 1965.

With the 'New Trade Structure', introduced in 1951, came the ranks of Junior Tech, Corporal Tech, Senior Tech, Chief Tech and Master Tech. These ranks were identified by their chevrons being worn point uppermost. A Master Tech wore the same 'Tate & Lyle' badge as a W.O.

Promotion through the Tech ranks was by trade tests and time in rank. The time was initially 5 years between each Technical rank.

But switching between the tech ranks and the old Command ranks was allowed and normal.

It was quite normal for a J/T to be promoted to Cpl, and after passing the trade test, 5 years after becoming J/T he was promoted to Cpl/Tech, and a Cpl/Tech could be promoted to Sgt.

The Tech ranks were paid more than the Command ranks and originally were not liable for such Station Duties as Orderly Cpl and Orderly Sgt. This didn't last long.

Some Flt. Sgts, with the required time in, took and passed the trade test and were PROMOTED to Chief/Tech.

Some time later, the time qualifications were altered. In an effort to encourage advanced tradesmen to sign for longer engagements, anyone doing 12 years had the time qualifications reduced to 3 years between J/T and Cpl/Tech and 4 between Cpl/Tech and Snr/Tech. I can't remember the others.

This reduction in time qualification was later implemented for people on engagements of 9 years. This happened just after I, being on a 10 years from my 18th birthday engagement, had done the 5 years to Cpl/Tech, and I'd passed the trade test over 2 years earlier.:sad:

In 1964 it all changed and the ranks of Cpl/Tech, Snr/Tech and Master/Tech were done away with, and these guys became Cpl's. Sgt's and W.O.'s

The rank of Chief/Tech was retained, but is was now JUNIOR to Flight Sergeant! Some Chief/Tech's had been Flight Sergeants for some years, before being PROMOTED to Chief/Tech. To say they were p*ssed off was an understatement.

[Wander00]

Cannot believe I remembered that, but cannot remember recent stuff - mind you our drama group jut did "Quartet", set in a retirement home. repeating yourself is now know in Wander00 Towers as "doing a "Quartet""

[Haraka]

ian 16th,
My father joined in 1939-coincidentally 39 Entry Halton, went through the War (under 19 into Malta) etc.etc. He spent 8 years as a Corporal/Cpl Tech, wartime and post war (including winning the Curtis memorial prize c.1952) He was as you say, brassed off about such as the Station Duties issue and the perceived blocking of regular RAF by initially "hostilities only" non- technical guys, who then stayed on "having never had it so good" . He therefore, as a Senior Technician in 1954, slung it in after 15 years and, along with many others, was interviewed as to why he was leaving. Hopefully this resulted in the change of policy, but by then he was into the Aircraft Industry and getting on with another career.

[NRU74]

ian16th
Wasn't the J/T upturned chevron replaced with a kind of brass 'wheel' and the Chief Tech's crown likewise ?
I seem to remember some spoof adverts in the RAF News put in by pi$$ed off Chief Techs at the time offering crowns for sale.
Our Crew Chief was a Master Tech and got, I think, a Queen's Commendation for going up into the 'Organ Loft' of a Valiant on the ground at what was then Palisadoes in Jamaica with a fire extinguisher to put out a fire. Brave man!

[ricardian]

NRI74 - the JnrTech inverted single chevron was replaced by a four bladed propeller, similar to the three bladed prop of an SAC. This confused me when I arrived at Northolt in the summer of 1964 after a 12 month tour in Sharjah and I saw these folk with 4 bladed props

[MPN11]

Thanks, ian6th and Haraka ... I am enlightened.

I knew the Tech Trades had some rocky times regarding promotion and status. Especially the perpetual Chf Tech, because there were no FS slots ... I have a few old Bisley colleagues who got stuck there!

[NutLoose]

I remember the purge in the 70's to get rid of a glut of Chief techs at the time, those that were any good at the job took the volunteer redundancy package as they knew they would walk into industry and those that were dire sadly stayed on.

[Haraka]

MPN 11
I think another burden that had to be considered was that of National Servicemen.Through no fault of their own, many of these young men were "NFI" . Thus the burden of supervision was increased on the "regulars", especially when issues pertinent to flight safety were involved. So it befell those in charge often having to " do it themselves" for peace of mind. but of course, not of body.

[Geordie_Expat]

Sometime in the 70's I think, they created a Chf Tech rank for Telegraphists, basically for Sgts who would never make Flt Sgt. I believe it also had something to do with pension entitlements.

[teeteringhead]

Re: Taff Walker et al

Further to my post 57 above, I last flew with Taff in January '73.

Can't find the name of the FS Nav - maybe I never flew with him. The navs on the Sqn in them days were Ops/Nav, and didn't fly that much .............

[John Farley]

Master Pilot Jimmy Hindson sent me solo in a Provost at Hullavington on 12 Jan 56.

I didn't think I was up to it but he knew his trade.

He was also the best instructor I could have had. When we met for the first time I was an Acting Pilot Oficer. His first words were "You will call me sir". He got no argument from me. Years later he came to my wedding.

[Fareastdriver]

The first time I saw a our bladed prop on a JT in 1964 I thought he was in the Air Training Corps because they had a similar badge.
I was a but embarrassed when he explained what it was.

[goudie]

I remember the purge in the 70's to get rid of a glut of Chief techs at the time
I was one of those C/Ts. My Boss wailed, 'those with any get up and go are going!'
I left with money in the bank a pension and a good job to go to in IT aged 37.
I personally believe the glut was caused by reducing the promotion exam to just a question paper. My cpl/tech and senior/tech exam boards were far more difficult.
Re Master Pilots, my first flight was with a Master Pilot Batchelor, in a Meteor NF 11. He was a fighter pilot in WWII and I recall watching his cine film of air to air gunnery practice. It was extremely accurate and the envy of the young pilots on the Sqdn.

[ian16th]

NRU74

ian16th
Wasn't the J/T upturned chevron replaced with a kind of brass 'wheel' and the Chief Tech's crown likewise ?Originally a Chief Tech wore 3 chevrons, point up, and a crown.

As Ricardian said, the new J/T's badge was a 4 bladed prop, the new Chief/Tech's badges were 3 chevrons point down and the new J/T's 4 bladed prop above it.

The 4 bladed brass 'wheel' always was the Boy Entrants and Apprentices badge. I never heard of it being used anywhere else.

This is my 64 year old one.

http://i818.photobucket.com/albums/zz108/ian16th/Wheel.jpg

[Tankertrashnav]

While we are talking about old ranks, how many of you knew we used to have sergeant majors in the RAF? From 1919 we had the ranks of sergeant major 1st class and 2nd class which were renamed warrant officer 1st and 2nd class in 1933. I once owned an RAF LS&GC (George V issue) which was named 'SM2 J.Bloggs, R.A.F." The rank of WO2 was abolished in 1939, but of course it remains in the army.

[ian16th]

NRU74
Our Crew Chief was a Master Tech and got, I think, a Queen's Commendation for going up into the 'Organ Loft' of a Valiant on the ground at what was then Palisadoes in Jamaica with a fire extinguisher to put out a fire. Brave man! A very brave man!

As radar fitters, on pre-flights, we had to crawl into the organ loft, carrying a pump, to pressurise the Orange Putter wave form generator. Having to change a U/S one was a job for a contortionist. It was a terrible place to work.

I would never have gone up there if there was a fire.

Only a Queens Commendation? I saw a guy earn a George Medal for less, attempting to put out a fire up the rear hatch, the article incorrectly refers to the Bomb Bay, of a Canberra B2 at Coningsby.

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1957/1957%20-%201540.html

I had somewhat ineffectively emptied a foam extinguisher on the fire before the fire engine arrived on the scene with the professionals.

[NRU74]

Ian16th
Memory failure 53 years on
The (then) Chf Tech Wicks was awarded the BEM for his deed !

[Exnomad]

My late Brother was a Master Pilot, joined up in 1940, ans served 22 years, aq long time as NCO pilot and QFI.
There was a time when there were "Pilot 1, Plot 2, and Pilot 3 ranks, and when they ended he did not want a commision as he would lose most of his rank seniority, which counted towards married quarter allocation and things like that,

[Rigga]

I joined up in 75 as a Rigga Mech, and one of the first things I had to do, on arrival at Tern Hill, was my Promotion exams (plural) LAC to SAC.
Safety Demonstration: Showing my Sgt around the hangar fire and first aid points.
Practical: doing a metal bashing test Job to LAC level (Shoite) and
Written: Doing a vote for Joe exam on techie things.


Many Moons later I did the JT/Cpl Promex at Honington - Mentored by a Chief in deeper Techie stuff and again doing Vote for Joe's...but no practical work. My Aptitude Assessment was signed off by lending my Chief a new Phil Collins Album..No Jacket Required. I was still on Time Promotion up to the point I got promoted to JT and I was on Stn Duty Dog at LBH on the day I should have been promoted to Cpl. - although I was promoted some months later.

Later still, doing the SNCO Team Building stuff at Hereford and Scampton (where the only useful thing I found was learning how to guide a crane properly!)

So yes, the dumbing down of us techies was pretty continual...For me, it picked up as soon as I left the RAF and started learning about all the other things that surround helicopters and aeroplanes! - And I'm still learning.

[T-21]

My late father was a Master Pilot, Jim Perry served 1948 to 1968. He had signed on for 22 years but due to contraction of the RAF took redundancy. His last posting after RAFCAW Strubby was as Unit Test pilot at Cranwell. He was issued a Warrant Officer warrant dated 15 Dec 1965 which I still have. When I went Varsity flying at Cranwell in 1969/70 there were very experienced Master Signallers who looked after us cadets with advice,food & drink.

[Brian W May]

Suppose it's just pride but I'm glad my Warrant and the Auxiliary Air Force warrant both say Master Engineer rather than today's 'Master Aircrew'.

Went to Biggin Hill in 1972 (ish) and was in a group with a Sergeant Pilot on Whirlwinds, apparently he told me he was the last one. No idea whether he got commissioned or not.

Master Pilots and other trades were still around in abundance then but disappeared not long afterwards.

[Pom Pax]

Exnomad said "My late Brother was a Master Pilot"

I obviously knew your late brother in '57-'58 at 2ANS as the name rings a strong bell but try as I can I can't fit a face to the name. I am sure I flew with him a few times but as I have no recall after 60 years means that they were safe and uneventful flights unless he was the gentleman who knew where he was when I didn't on my 1st solo navex. I thought we had arrived back at Petersfield to be told "Well nav its a town and its got a railway line but a river instead of a lake....Christ thats a B47 .....ah Greenham Common".

[ancientaviator62]

Brian,
Mine dated 1 Jan 1974 says Warrant Officer !

[2 TWU]

First entry in my logbook, 22 Jun 64, Chipmunk WB 738, M Plt Forrester (same airframe for first solo a little later). Some lovely old SNCO instructors around, my FNT on JPs was with M Plt Naismith.

"An old Master Pilot, quietly Master Piloting away in the corner"

[Herod]

"An old Master Pilot, quietly Master Piloting away in the corner"

Surely, that was a Master Painter.

[Danny42C]

...What rank is "Master Pilot"...
A very honourable rank indeed ! ("A Warrant Officer by any other name would smell as sweet"). In WWII, on receiving our Brevets, most of us, being adjudged too uncouth for Commissioned rank, were promoted from Leading Aircraftmen to Sergeants, paid 13/6 a day (Pilots and Navs), and told to go away and play.

If you survived 12 months, you were promoted Flight Sergeant and got a few more "bob". If you defied all the odds, and made it for another 12 months, you were promoted Warrant Officer, got a bit more pay, a nice barathea uniform to replace your scratchy serge, lived in equal comfort to (in the Sergeants' Mess), and much more cheaply than any junior Officer.

Your juniors called you "Sir", an officer would address you (formally) as "Mister Smith" (in your crew you were, of course, "Skipper", "Paddy"or "Johnny" or whatever).

So matters stood as the war ended.

Around '48 the Air House had one of its brainstorms, but instead of lying down in a darkened room till it went away, put it into practice. This was the "Four-star Brandy" idea described in detail in these columns already. "P.1" was a poor substitute for "Warrant Officer", protest arose on all sides, and they changed it to "Master Pilot, etc", which was much better.

Then they threw away the whole "Four-star" idea (to general acclamation), and went back to what they'd had before. But (unwilling, as always, to admit that they'd made the mess in the first place *), they retained the "Master" rank. In later years all the old aircrew NCOs had worked up to "Master" (I don't know what the time requirement was). And the rest you know.

Note *: exactly the same subterfuge (which fooled nobody) was used for the three-button officers' No.1 Jacket of the '50s (to replace the wartime four-button).

Danny42C.

Leave well alone - if it ain't broke, don't fix it !

[Uptime]

Heading back to the Master Pilot thread - lets not forget MPlt Dennis Rowe, at Binbrook in the early 70's as a Lightning Sim Instructor.

A gentleman who, in between Sim Slots, built a state of art electronic organ in the Sim computer room, at that time the organ was more electronically advanced than the simulator !!!!!

Yet hitching a ride with him between space cadet AEF on Chipmunks was a joy.. Never realized a Chippy could be considered as a WW2 train buster - Dennis often demonstrated the technique, he used in 1944, over Covenham Resevoir...

Anyone remember Dennis ???

Uptime...

[Fixed Cross]

2 TWU (Ref post #89)

I was very fortunate to have MPlt Jock Naismith as my instructor at Syerston (62-63).

Fixed Cross (once a Sgt Pilot)

[huge72]

In 1975 we had a M Pilot Ken Shardlow as a Deputy Ops Controller at 46 Gp Ops Upavon. His last flying tour I believe was on Brigands in Malaya. His wife all 4ft 6 of her, an ex wartime WAAF used to drink every lunchtime and evening in the Antelope Pub in the village, where she would consume at least 6/7 pints of bitter at every session!!!!!:ooh: After he retired we gained M Pilot George Pope who had been ops on 216 Sqn when they flew Comets at Lyneham. Working with all of the Master Aircrew at Upavon certainly helped when I decided to apply for Airmen Aircrew in 78, great men who guided and mentored me into what turned out to be the best move of my 38 year career.

[2 TWU]

Fixed Cross, I well remember after my high & low level sorties with M Plt Naismith (Jock?)thinking if I ever got to a position of testing students, that's the way to do it, a real gentleman and QFI

[GGR155]

In ASCOC I was fortunate to work with Master Nav John Ford ex Mosquitos, York, Hastings. Master Pilot Ken Shardlow, he flew just about everything under the sun. These two gentlemen kept the long night shift interesting with stories of their past exploits. 1971/72

[MPN11]

... we gained M Pilot George Pope who had been ops on 216 Sqn when they flew Comets at Lyneham.The OH remembers him in 216 Ops well ... she was Sqn Adj.

[donthaveone]

Radar - don't know about that, but he was deficient one ear lobe
Legend had it that M/Plt Jackson was also missing his Adams apple (war wounds) and, without this obstruction, he was capable of downing a pint faster than anyone else! Does anyone know if this was true?

[Herod]

Not to forget M/Plt "Andy" Anderson, who was my Jet Provost instructor at Syerston '65/'66. A hard taskmaster, but he must have taught me well, since I managed a 38-year flying career.

[NutLoose]

With the 'New Trade Structure', introduced in 1951, came the ranks of Junior Tech, Corporal Tech, Senior Tech, Chief Tech and Master Tech. These ranks were identified by their chevrons being worn point uppermost. A Master Tech wore the same 'Tate & Lyle' badge as a W.O.

Promotion through the Tech ranks was by trade tests and time in rank. The time was initially 5 years between each Technical rank.


That explains the picture here then

Halton (http://www.rushenhistory.com/brat/Brat.htm)

http://www.rushenhistory.com/brat/sing%20ginge.jpg

[langleybaston]

The other RAF use of chevrons point up [the heraldic chevron IS point up of course] was for the Good Conduct badges. My LAC father had one in WW II ......... a bit of a mystery why/when they ceased. [Come to that, so did Lawrence of Arabia in his RAF service].

[Tankertrashnav]

Abolished in 1950 (AMO A 594).

That answers the "when", but as for the "why" I have no idea!

[NutLoose]

A bit like the JT, probably someones only claim to fame in the military and used as a backboard for his advancement, but in the end pointless and expensive.

All those new ranks to produce, all the literature from QR's down to amend and for what, to have a rank that is in all intent the same, but just wearing a different badge and called a different name, while making removing the progression chain and sense of it all to the rank of Chief Tech.

[goudie]

but in the end pointless and expensive.
. I was certainly chuffed to put up my hard earned J/T stripe. Only 4 out of 16 who started my course made it to the end.
I imagine someone was scratching around in MOD for something to do and came up with the idea.
For a predominately technical Service the original advancement through the technical ranks via promotion boards and time in rank made sense to most people and certainly improved one's practical skills and knowledge.
I've just read the link to Halton. I knew Pete Rushen at Bassingboun. He had an interesting career. Small world!

[ian16th]

but in the end pointless and expensive.From the attitude of the affected people at the time, they definitely didn't think it was a pointless system.

There was a lot of resentment that those who had sat on their collective backsides, and not bothered to work for and pass a trade test, suddenly were given a larger pay increase to the same as those that had done some work and proved their ability.

[langleybaston]

Tankertrashnav: many thanks.

From 1950, good conduct was assumed and unrewarded!

The army has never [as far as I can make out], formally abolished the GCB, merely ceased to award and wear it, although it lingered on well past 1950, especially on Foot Guards Home Service Dress.

As far as I know, the RN retains the badges and the monetary awards.

[izod tester]

The inverted chevron is also used to denote drum and pipe majors.

[Union Jack]

As far as I know, the RN retains the badges and the monetary awards. LB

GCBs - Yes GCB Pay - Sadly not, wef 1 April 70.

PS Not 1 April again....

Jack

[Danny42C]

My Father had the Army Long Service and Good Conduct Medal. It was jocularly referred to as having been awarded for "Twenty-two Years of Undetected Crime" !

Danny.

[Tankertrashnav]

Danny - still the same expression, but it's only 15 years of undetected crime these days!

Re RN long service badges, the expression "as rough as a three badge stoker" (ie one with three long service stripes) was used to epitomise the hairy a**ed and grizzled old salt, possibly not renowned for his refined language and behaviour.

I'm sure Union Jack has known a few!

[Union Jack]

I'm sure Union Jack has known a few! - TTN

Yes indeed, depending of course on one's definition of "known".....:=

Many of you will know the doubtless apocryphal story of the Captain doing Rounds on a Saturday morning and, on entering the Stokers' messdeck, exclaiming, "My wife would say that this mess smells like a Turkish brothel," to which the three badge Leading Hand of the Mess replied, "I'm sorry, Sir, I'm afraid I don't have your wife's experience."!:D

At the other end of the scale, I escorted a Field Marshal and long past CDS on a tour of my Admiral's flagship, which included stand easy (aka tea break) in the Stokers' mess. As we were about to leave, the Field Marshal in his beret and very faded woolly pully and equally faded shoulder straps asked if there were any questions, and the no badge junior stoker, who had just entered the mess with no idea of who the visitor was and whose military knowledge was somewhat lacking, said, "Yes, Sir. How come someone your age never got past Sergeant Major?":uhoh: To his credit, His Lordship was very amused.

Jack

[Avtur]

Fonsini, to answer your question, the rank of Master Pilot was "Master Pilot".

[binbrook]

The LSGCM seemed to be withheld at times for relatively trivial reasons. Around 1962 I came across a Chief Tech armourer with an AG brevet and all the ribbons you would expect, except for the LSGCM. His crime sheet showed nothing except 3 instances of AWOLWOAS, in each case late back from leave or grant during 1944/5 and none more than 12 hours. I'm pleased to say that someone higher up listened and he got his gong and the cash (6d a day?) that went with it.

[ian16th]

The inverted chevron is also used to denote drum and pipe majors.

Probably the most chevrons worn at one time was the case of a a Sgt/Boy or Sgt/App who was also Drum/Pipe Major.

There is a photo somewhere of such a case, with 3 chevrons point down above the elbow and 4 point up on the lower sleeve, of each arm.

Dunno where he would have worn his GC stripes.

[MPN11]

I was an ATC Cadet FS and also Sqn Band Drum Major. I don't think I had the balls to wear both sets of stripes, though, and in any case I had enough other badges and lanyards and wings [PPL and Glider].

[Babsrowe]

Hi, I have searched high and low for any information regarding my late father, M/plt Albert Dennis Rowe and to read your thread brought a tear to my eyes. He built that electronic organ as a present for my mother who was suffering from Lupus for most of her life. He got the original plans from Practical electronics magazine but having built it realised there was no `feel` to the keys...so he did what anyone would do..he re designed the electronics to make it better!.
I still find it hard to talk about my father as he was the most wonderful guy and `touched` everyond who knew hima as he was very `old school` and a perfect gentleman.
I have all of his memorabilia including button compasses, silk maps, masses of photos and of course his medals.
I would love to hear any memories you could muster up.
A very proud son
Paul

[NutLoose]

Is this your father Paul?

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36899/supplement/469/data.pdf

[Shack37]

When I was on 206 Sqn at St: Mawgan, 1961 to 1964 we had a Sgt. Pilot. His first name was Horace, don´t remember his surname.

[oxenos]

Horace Gallop

[ETOPS]

My first commercial flying job was co-pilot on Beech Kingairs. One of the old hands was "Doc" Watson who had served on Javelins with the rank of Master Pilot. I'm still here 40 years and 20,000 hours later because of the things he taught me - a "Master Pilot" in every sense.

[jindabyne]

Herod,

M Plt Anderson was also one of my two regular instructors at Syerston in 62/63; the other was M/Plt Hollings. Very different characters but, in their own ways, great instructors.

[oldpax]

I maintained the Link trainer at RAF Oakington and my boss (who was the instructor))was Master pilot Al Boyes.Perfect gentleman nearly always gave me Thursdays of for a long wkend!!!

[eMACaRe]

On 242 OMC Henlow, 1970/71 we had, as a student, M Plt (?) "Cherry" Springate, Believe he was decorated for bravery following a helicopter mission. What became of him?

[Old-Duffer]

You mean L T Springate AFM now retired as Flt Lt.

Old Duffer

[eMACaRe]

Old Duffer
Laury (sp) Springate - sounds like the man. Thanks
MACR

[eMACaRe]

OD
Lawry (?) Springate - sounds like the man
tks

[DC10RealMan]

At Brize Norton in the mid-1970s there was Master Pilot Jack Meakin in ATC and he was the Watch Supervisor irrespective of what Ken Burton the actual aged flight lieutenant and actual ATC supervisor said.
In the Brize Flight Planning room was Master Navigator "Ness" Edwards whose real first name I never found out, he was Ness to everyone including the Station Commander and in an adjacent room to Ness Edwards were two absolutely delightful elderly gentlemen, one of whom was a Master Signaller who's name I cant remember and another was a Master AEO who's nickname was "Harry Chunkers" for some unfathomed reason.

[Danny42C]

Master Pilot: How it All Came About.

During the War, the bulk of RAF aircrew were promoted to Sergeant when they got their aircrew wings. If they lasted one year, they got to F/Sgt. If they lasted two years (not many did) they became Warrant Officers.

But there had always been a bit of muttering about this in the Sergean's Messes from Ground Trade sergeants. You could see their point of view. They had sweated their guts out and kept their noses clean for maybe 15 years to reach the rank kudos and (comparitive) luxury of the Sgt's Mess. And here were these kids with perhaps six month's service getting it all on a plate ? 'Tain't right !

Postwar, the Air House sympathised. How would it be if we still let these parvenus into the Sgt's Mess, but made it clear that that they were not "proper" Sgts at all, but just aircrew allowed into the Mess in recognition of their pay scales and skilled status ?

Worth a try ! The "Four-star Brandy" scheme was introduced (in 1947 ?). I may be a bit wrong in detail, but I think tha aircrew Sgts became Pilot 3 (P3); F/Sgts=P2 and they did not have a P1 - he became a "Master", and wore the barathea uniform of a Warrant Officer. As for the "star" badges, I've forgotten, but you can (or could) get it all on Google.

After two or three years, this idea had become the butt of so much hilarity and general derision that the Air House turned tail, and went back to the wartime system. But face must not be lost, one facet of the 4-Star business was kept. The Masters did not go back to Warrant Officer, but remained Masters ! So now you had Master aircrew, F/Sgts and Sgts again, until all the "old Hairies" were finally pensioned off in the sixties), and only young gentlemen were allowed to be Pilots and Navs now (but other aircrew categories were still recruited from the "scruffs").

Many of these old boys in later years gravitated into ATC, which in any case had been invented after the war as a "Sunset Home" for them.

Sneer ? Not at all - this is from an old Sgt/Pilot who was two weeks overdue for his "crown" before he was commissioned - but never did get the money (or the crown !)

Hope that clears it up.

[Fareastdriver]

You would probably have made more money if you had got , and kept, your "crown".

[langleybaston]

Did Master Aircrew receive a warrant? And if so, were they in fact warrant officers with a distinctive appointment/job title?

I ask because the army have had since 1881 warrant officers [the over-arching RANK] with a myriad of APPOINTMENTS such as conductor, master gunner, schoolmaster, bandmaster, RSM etc etc.
In the RAF, how was seniority determined if if push came to shove.?

[WIDN62]

DC10RM

The Master Signaller could well have been Buzz Stoner. He went on Britannia global trainers to teach us young copilots how to flight plan and do the comms around the world (and how to survive out there!). A true gent who moved over to Lyneham to run the radio logs cell in the early 80s. I repaid him by taking him around the world on a Hercules.

[Top West 50]

Fonsini. Flight Sergeant Foard was an instructor at 6FTS Acklington and he conducted my final nav test on the JP in 1965

[Danny42C]

FED (#129),

True - had I remained in UK on UK pay scales. But I was commissioned in India, and the Government of India took over the responsibility of paying the Officers of the Raj properly. My pay as a Pilot Officer (Rs500 /month) was, at Rs14/£ more than double the UK rate. And it went up the ranks.in proportion. We lived like Lords (or would've done if there had been anything to spend the money on).

A Sgt (or any Other. Rank) was only paid the rupee equivalent of his UK pay. - "One Law for the Rich ........... ?"

[JAVELINBOY]

I was an ATC Cadet FS and also Sqn Band Drum Major. I don't think I had the balls to wear both sets of stripes, though, and in any case I had enough other badges and lanyards and wings [PPL and Glider].

Same as me MPN11, in the ATC I was Cadet Warrant Officer and Drum Major, had a battle Dress Tunic for each function sporting appropriate rank badges.

[Shack37]

Originally posted by OXENOS
Horace Gallop

That´s the man, thanks.:ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

Worth a try ! The "Four-star Brandy" scheme was introduced (in 1947 ?). I may be a bit wrong in detail, but I think tha aircrew Sgts became Pilot 3 (P3); F/Sgts=P2 and they did not have a P1 - he became a "Master", and wore the barathea uniform of a Warrant Officer. As for the "star" badges, I've forgotten, but you can (or could) get it all on Google.


Danny, the badges for that system are highly sought after by collectors of RAF memorabilia. I was at a collectors' fair in Gloucester around 25 years ago and I saw a set on sale for well over £100 - goodness knows what they would fetch now, that is the only set I have ever seen and in 30 plus years of dealing I never had so much as a single badge pass through my hands. I did once buy a GSM with the post-war Palestine 1945-48 clasp, which was named to an "S2 R.A.F." This puzzled me until I realised it was to a Signaller 2 (flight sergeant equivalent). Again, a very scarce item, as very few medals were named using this system, other than GSMs with that clasp and LS&GCs

Did Master Aircrew receive a warrant? And if so, were they in fact warrant officers with a distinctive appointment/job title?

Langleybaston the answers to your questions are yes, and yes. Master Pilots (and Master Navs, etc) were as much warrant officers as those in ground trades. As such I can see no reason why they would not receive a warrant, although in truth I have never actually seen one.

[ancientaviator62]

As a former Master Air Loadmaster the urban myth that we were not proper Warrant Officers is just a myth. I have a certificate appointing me a Warrant Officer 'In her Majesty's Royal Air Force'.
The actual certificate is slightly smaller than my later commission certificate.

[BEagle]

Masters certainly were 'real' WOs! One of our M Eng was on some course or other at some pongo establishment and went into the bar for a pre-dinner drink....

He was told that he couldn't be served until the CSM was in the bar. This didn't go down too well with a rather thirsty 'Caring Ken, the airman's friend', who told the barman that he outranked the WO2 CSM and would like a beer, please. So the barman obliged...

Enter the CSM, who was clearly perplexed by this breach of pongo protocol. But on meeting Ken, they discovered that each had the same militaristic view of life and they got on very well with each other, went into dinner and propped up the bar later until closing time!

[cliver029]

Please correct me if wrong, but wasn't there a Master pilot at Wattisham late 60's on the Lightning TFF who had got somehow got through the system?

Cliver...

[ian16th]

And from 1951 to 1964 there were Master Technician's. A rank above a W.O..
MT 'Timber' Wood was on 214 Sqdn to my knowledge, from Feb 59 and was still there as a W.O. when I returned in Oct 64, 7 months after the demise of the rank.

[ancientaviator62]

I had a similar situation when we used to do our airdrop courses at Nicosia. We took some of the resident garrison flying and made sure that the RSM was especially well looked after. As a result I was given the honour of 'opening' the bar if we were there before him. I made sure that this was not abused and always bought him his first drink when he arrived.

[MPN11]

At Brize Norton in the mid-1970s there was Master Pilot Jack Meakin in ATC and he was the Watch Supervisor irrespective of what Ken Burton the actual aged flight lieutenant and actual ATC supervisor said.
... See Post #32/33 ... we seemed to have had 2 x MPlt Jack Meachin/Meakin in ATC :)

[langleybaston]

the answers to your questions are yes, and yes. Master Pilots (and Master Navs, etc) were as much warrant officers as those in ground trades. As such I can see no reason why they would not receive a warrant, although in truth I have never actually seen one.

Thank you. May I attempt a summary for agreement/ disagreement/ comment.?

The Army had WO I and WO II from 1915, filling a myriad of appointments with varied pay rates and job titles according to perceived worth/ responsibility.
Presumably the RAF briefly had both grades after founding in 1918 but ceased to promote to WO II and dropped the rank [when?]
Since then the RAF has Warrant Officers [all ranking with army WO I according to date of promotion] with various titles which include the MACR cohort, all ranking with each other according to date of promotion and paid variously according to perceived worth.
There is and never has been an RAF rank superior to WO and junior to commissioned rank, unlike [on dangerous ground here] the RN, who may have/ had some ranks in between .........

[MPN11]

The RN had some incredibly convoluted WO rank arrangements. I have tried [and largely failed] to absorb some of the detail in this rather tiresome web-page ... THE ROYAL NAVY WARRANT OFFICER PART ONE (http://www.godfreydykes.info/THE%20ROYAL%20NAVY%20WARRANT%20OFFICER%20PART%20ONE.htm)

The basic 'badges' Wiki makes passing mention of 'Commissioned warrant Officer", though ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Navy_ratings_rank_insignia

[ian16th]

There is and never has been an RAF rank superior to WO and junior to commissioned rank, unlike [on dangerous ground here] the RN, who may have/ had some ranks in between .........

Not strictly true.

The rank of Master Tech was a promotion and a pay increase from W.O.

At the introduction of the 'New Trade Structure' in 1951, a W.O. was required to pass a trade test and have the time qualification of 20 years from qualifying for Junior Tech or its equivalent.
The time qualification was reduced in later years.

The M.T.'s that became W.O.'s in 1964, at least were not 'overtaken' by their juniors; as were the former Flt. Sgt's that had passed their trade test, done the time qualification, and were promoted to Ch. Tech before 1st April 1964. That day they discovered that they were junior to all Flt. Sgt's.

[longer ron]

The RN had some incredibly convoluted WO rank arrangements. I have tried [and largely failed] to absorb some of the detail in this rather tiresome web-page ...

The basic 'badges' Wiki makes passing mention of 'Commissioned warrant Officer"

The Commissioned Warrant Officers wore a single thin Lace 'Bootlace'(similar to Sub Lt - but a little thinner).
Or at least they did by WW2 - it is more complicated than that of course :)

[MPN11]

The Commissioned Warrant Officers wore a single thin Lace 'Bootlace'(similar to Sub Lt - but a little thinner).
Or at least they did by WW2 - it is more complicated than that of course :)Yes, which sort of answers langleybaston’s question. Senior to a conventional WO, but junior to commissioned officers.

[Cornish Jack]

Some interesting stuff here!
Spent 35 plus years in blue, the last 19 as MACR - as someone pointed out, the best rank in the RAF! Had to refuse two commissioning opportunities to stay there! (would have meant a pay cut, so no contest!) Unusual for rank and trade in having lower case cfs on my Air Force List entry. 'Ness' Edwards was one of my operators in the 10 Sim at Brize - we had worked together previously in the late, lamented Transport Command. Service experience was littered with Masters of all types. 'Bim' Ward, John Loveridge, Jack Huntingdon, 'Knobby' Clark, Jock Riddoch, Leo Penczek et al. Knobby was my introduction to the mysteries of the hover in the Whirly 10, Bim Ward demo'ed both Chipmunk and Single Pin. I think I saw a mention of M/P Morton - I believe it was his son who pitched up at Brize in a twin light turbo -'Queen', 'Duchess'?? and kindly showed me around while reminiscing about his dad. Going from blue at Brize to civvies at BA was an eye-opener, finance enhancer and a startling indication of how staff CAN be looked after!

[Davita]

Some interesting stuff here!
Spent 35 plus years in blue, the last 19 as MACR - as someone pointed out, the best rank in the RAF! Had to refuse two commissioning opportunities to stay there! (would have meant a pay cut, so no contest!) Unusual for rank and trade in having lower case cfs on my Air Force List entry. 'Ness' Edwards was one of my operators in the 10 Sim at Brize - we had worked together previously in the late, lamented Transport Command. Service experience was littered with Masters of all types. 'Bim' Ward, John Loveridge, Jack Huntingdon, 'Knobby' Clark, Jock Riddoch, Leo Penczek et al. Knobby was my introduction to the mysteries of the hover in the Whirly 10, Bim Ward demo'ed both Chipmunk and Single Pin. I think I saw a mention of M/P Morton - I believe it was his son who pitched up at Brize in a twin light turbo -'Queen', 'Duchess'?? and kindly showed me around while reminiscing about his dad. Going from blue at Brize to civvies at BA was an eye-opener, finance enhancer and a startling indication of how staff CAN be looked after!

Both John and Jack were forced to learn how to eat with knife and fork as they became F/O's.....much to their disdain. I recall being Jolly Jacks F/E on Hastings at Changi when, on a training pre-flight I nudged the elevator with my shoulder and immediately grounded the A/C because of slack elevator hinge bolts.
Jack came running across the tarmac, swearing at me for screwing-up the morning training program, He always got picked-up outside Sqn HQ as it was beneath his dignity to do the full start-checks etc.
However...when I demonstrated the fault.....He hugged me. It appeared a great friend of his had died because the F/E had ignored this well-known part of a pre-flight. Thereafter, we became buddies and we did all the planned tricky flights to exotic places in the southern Philippines.

Much later Johnny Loveridge and I used to sit side by side for hours in the original VC10 Flight Sim...we were both F/Lts then and instructed in the Sim. I seem to recall MAEOp Edwards was our consul operator.....but wasn't he also known as Taff?

[ValMORNA]

Flew with (then) F/Sgt Loveridge in TG554 4th Aug 1953. Remarkably smooth landing he made at Lyneham, never forgotten.

[Pontius Navigator]

Masters certainly were 'real' WOs! One of our M Eng was on some course or other at some pongo establishment and went into the bar for a pre-dinner drink....


One of our knockers, FS, was promoted to MACR. He was taken aside by one Me M......... to be inducted into the rank and the responsibilities associated with warrant rank. Almost like being inducted into masonry, he was quite subdued afterwards.

[Brian 48nav]

'Jolly Jack' once showed me a photo taken of him in front of a Spitfire ( IIRC ) around the end of WW2, exclaiming " Ee I were a handsome b'stard then " - as he was a pilot trapper on ASCEU, I resisted the temptation to say you've never been handsome Jack. By the way it's HuntingTon.

[BEagle]

Dear old 'Ness' never did quite get to grips with the coming of the VC10K to Brize...

One afternoon I went in to collect a route bag for some AAR trail or other leaving in the keep-Cyprus-happy early hours, only to find that my carefully requested diversion TAPs hadn't been included. As I roamed about trying to find the right documents, 'Ness' asked what I was doing.

"Getting the TAPs and FLIPs I'd requested your staff to supply", I replied.

To which he looked down (or rather, round) his nose and sniffily responded in rather a haughty manner "A 10 Squadron co-pilot would have been in yesterday to check the route bags".

"Quite possibly. But unlike me, he probably wouldn't have spent most of yesterday chasing Russians!" came my rejoinder.

I don't think he really ever forgave the RAF for binning Transport Command some 25 or so years earlier - or for using VC10s for such ungentlemanly activity as tanking. But such attitudes were quite common at Brize at the time.

[DC10RealMan]

Quite right too.

RAF Transport Command and BOAC should have been the only users of the VC10.
Refuelling probes and grey camouflage are so common!

[Sleeve Wing]

Any one remember Mstr.Plt. Adamek and Flt Sgt.Harry Dyde, instructors and IREs on the Vampire at Linton, 1962 ? I was going through on RN FW course No.102 in those days before clearing to Lossiemouth after “Wings”. I’m afraid I don’t know any more as the meetings were transient.