V-22 for SAS

[ORAC]

I see in the Times, and I note DM, that the SAS are acquiring the V-22, with crews currently training in the USA. No mention of numbers, but I assume at leat 3? To cover for maintenance and training/op spare.

The detail of if the crew are army or RAF will presumably impact on the carrier V-22 discussion on another thread.

[Davef68]

Leak or confidential briefing?

[Evalu8ter]

Sounds like "2+2=5" to me. It is only natural that Cdr JHC would like to get on the record his aspiration that his forces should have the best equipment - that way if an incident happens and the response is criticised he can say "I asked but wasn't given the money". It also makes complete sense for UKSF to conduct famil flying with the Mildenhall based CV-22 community, which, doubtless, in time of acute national need would be made available.

Any UK purchase of V-22 is probably quite some way off. As ORAC suggests, the RN COD requirement may well be the "foot in the door" that would permit a small number of V-22s to be purchased for JSFAW - probably to enable 7 Sqn to release the Mk6 Chinooks back to SH and to have a blend of "fat tank" Mk5 Chinook and V-22. We'd need at least 6 frames to provide 2x FL, 1x Trg/Spare and 3 in either light or deep rectification. Double that to include COD and the number is probably between 12-16 airframes. There are already RN pilots flying the V-22 on exchange so "crews training in the US" is true as well.

[Kitbag]

Sure the story wasn't meant to be published on 1 April?

[Trim Stab]

1) Can't do brown out or white out landings without a lot of fancy kit and training.
2) Crap for low-level, mountain work
3) Not particularly manoeuvrable, not great range
4) Wrong speed for escort helis or fighter cover
5) Clumsy radar and noise signature
5) Hopeless for fast-roping due to massive downwash
6) Can it drop HALO ore even static line? Dunno but if it can probably not good at it.
7) Can't autorotate, can't glide
8) Heavy maintenance support

Great maybe for niche role for US special ops with no budget limit - but too specialist for UKSF budget and ethos.

[westernhero]

Osprey 'transformer' heli-planes to scramble SAS to fight ISIS in the UK | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3520896/Revealed-new-British-weapon-war-terror-Transformer-heli-planes-scramble-SAS-fight-UK.html)

[threeputt]

About a month ago I saw a pair of V-22 operating in and around Wiltshire, in company with 2 x Chinook and 2 x Apache.
3P

[smujsmith]

They seem to be still around threeputt. Seen them for a few weeks now, seem to be lifting from Fairford so assumed a standard exercise deployment. Perhaps the US Marine corps are going to drive the taxi's !

Smudge :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

It's been on UKSF's shopping list for a number of years, now. It would be great if we did buy some as it would make a change to the answer of "2 Chinooks, please"...:ok:

IIRC if it's pressurised (which it is) then the RAF operate it. I'll start the rumour now! :ok:

LJ

[Lonewolf_50]

It's been on UKSF's shopping list for a number of years, now. It would be great if we did buy some as it would make a change to the answer of "2 Chinooks, please"...:ok:

IIRC if it's pressurised (which it is) then the RAF operate it. I'll start the rumour now! :ok:

LJ Expensive kit, the V-22, but maybe your SpecOps folks get a bit more dough for things, as ours often do. Best wishes on adding it to the mix.

[5aday]

Spangdahlen will also have a European Spec Forces base and 'quite a few' Ospreys (v -22)
replacing the F16s and the previously Spangdahlen based A-10. Supposed to be hush but everyone in the area knows all about it - or at least that's what they tpld me a couple of weeks ago.

[RAFEngO74to09]

5aday,

The move of a USAF Special Operations Group into Spangdahlem AB was announced publicly in 2015 - it is not an additional unit.

The USAF 352 SOG is relocating from RAF Mildenhall to Spangdahlem AB as part of the base consolidation program announced in 2015.

RAF Mildenhall to close amid other Europe consolidations - Europe - Stripes (http://www.stripes.com/news/europe/raf-mildenhall-to-close-amid-other-europe-consolidations-1.322825)

[5aday]

Thank you. I just found out and they all think its TS in the immediate area.
It secures a lot of jobs for the locals.

[klingonbc]

Era late 1980s and a joint planning exercise ran a scenario involving the rescue of a bus-load of holiday makers from an area of the world they shouldn’t have been in. As a planner for the rotary aspect I was very interested in the capabilities of V-22, still at that time in development. Using the advertising data from the manufacturer and factoring it down to represent our view of reality in service, we developed a fictitious squadron of V-22. It was 66 Sqn and we had it deployed with a capability to launch 8 airframes on task.

We ran the scenario against our current rotary assets and some Tac AT in support. We used all the UK military’s rotary assets (RN/RAF/AAC) except the SAR buoys and I think 4 Hercs for the job and it worked out at 4 days to do the job with considerable risk of exposure and compromise.

At the end of the exercise we briefed the staff on the same op with our fictitious 66 Sqn doing the job ……. 4 hours in and out!! We actually thought we could do it in 1 hour 35 mins but decided we needed a deception plan to enhance survivability and maintain security.

Either way we all realized it was a major game-changer. Pity UK Mil PLC didn’t see the same potential. Would have loved to have had a go myself to prove our theory but if we ever do get this baby I will be well and truly in a care home.

Kbc

[safetypee]

One seen overflying Herefordshire earlier this year!

[dead_pan]

We these be in addition to the civilian-a-like Panther (or A109?) seen occasionally in the circuit at Brize?

[chevvron]

We these be in addition to the civilian-a-like Panther (or A109?) seen occasionally in the circuit at Brize?
The SAS haven't used A109s for several years.

[chevvron]

Osprey 'transformer' heli-planes to scramble SAS to fight ISIS in the UK | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3520896/Revealed-new-British-weapon-war-terror-Transformer-heli-planes-scramble-SAS-fight-UK.html)
'Leased from the US Air Force'?
I thought they were US Army and USMC.

[West Coast]

No, USMC and USAF have the Osprey.

[JAVELINBOY]

Given their current abode V-22 would seem to be extremely suitable for a rapid response mode of transport for personnel and equipment

[RAFEngO74to09]

Chevron,

The CV-22B has been the USAF Special Operation Forces primary vertical lift asset since achieving IOC in 2009 - hence the retirement of the MH-53J/M PAVE LOW III fleet.

51 x CV-22B are due to be delivered by end-2019.

CV-22 Osprey > U.S. Air Force > Fact Sheet Display (http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/FactSheets/Display/tabid/224/Article/104531/cv-22-osprey.aspx)

[chopper2004]

I was fortunate enough to be invited in June 2013 literally after Le Bourget - (the event was supposedly on the week when Le Bourget was happening but due to delays -as in the a/c were still in CYYT it did not happen)

So here are my photos of that day,

cheers

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger062/IMG_0699_zpsbpgbo8j0.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger062/IMG_0679_zpsthzm3g1p.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger062/IMG_0691_zpsjcbxrtlh.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

Seen pairs of them en route to Donna Nook, previously Apache too.

[RAFEngO74to09]

MV-22 demo at MCAS Yuma Air Show 2015:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZrQi2K0hw4

[RAFEngO74to09]

The MV-22 has also been in service with USMC HMX-1 - the Presidential / VIP transport unit - since 2013.

HMX-1 is getting way more V-22s than UK SF could aspire to (qty 12 so far).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XcjYGDO-Qs&nohtml5=False

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROJwL2suUMI

[RAFEngO74to09]

MV-22 interior tour with Aircraft Commander: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0QFg3Fx77s

[RAFEngO74to09]

MV-22 - carrier ops + AAR from KC-130J: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmisIde7iM8

[RAFEngO74to09]

MV-22 with Interim Defensive Weapon System - retractable underbody gatling gun - made by BAe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVoksf_2y5k&nohtml5=False

[MOSTAFA]

Just out of interest anybody ever seen one do a quickstop?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

I thought they were US Army and USMC


The US Army are getting the V-280 Valor but not the V-22.

[El Grifo]

I occasionally see US singles or pairs at Gando base Las Palmas. Quite a distance from their operating base in mainland Spain. Possibly in transit or refuelling !

[Lonewolf_50]

The US Army are getting the V-280 Valor but not the V-22.
That's not a done deal yet, but the Valor is in the competition. Defiant (S-97 Raider scaled up) looks to be the primary competition from L/M Sikorsky.

[chevvron]

Given their current abode V-22 would seem to be extremely suitable for a rapid response mode of transport for personnel and equipment
Only visited 'Credenhill' for a short period for ATC Camp back in '84, but I would have thought the available open space (south of the hangars) at the ex RAF Hereford was a bit small for the V22; Ok for the helicopters they presently use though.
Edit to add: In fact looking at a satellite photo, I'm sure there are more hangars there now, so the open space is even smaller!

[RAFEngO74to09]

V-22 power folding up for storage - great party trick - pretty quick & nice engineering !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_45aUrES-j0&nohtml5=False

[Hilife]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TorqueOfTheDevil View Post
The US Army are getting the V-280 Valor but not the V-22.


That's not a done deal yet, but the Valor is in the competition. Defiant (S-97 Raider scaled up) looks to be the primary competition from L/M Sikorsky.

Still lots to prove by both OEM's at this stage, but if you want range & speed it's Valor and if you want hover & speed it's Defiant, so I would see both companies getting orders, as these are very different ships.

Oh and I still believe the US Army sees Raider as the AAS solution.

[Wander00]

RAFEng - never seen that before - pretty damn clever.

[airborne_artist]

Only visited 'Credenhill' for a short period for ATC Camp back in '84, but I would have thought the available open space (south of the hangars) at the ex RAF Hereford was a bit small for the V22; Ok for the helicopters they presently use though.
Edit to add: In fact looking at a satellite photo, I'm sure there are more hangars there now, so the open space is even smaller!

Plenty of space where the CRW training takes place ;)

[MOSTAFA]

Perhaps nobody knows, so I'll ask again, can this thing do a quickstop? Because if it can't its just another transport! As for 30 mins into London - to where?

[airborne_artist]

As for 30 mins into London - to where?

To any recce'd LS :cool:

[MOSTAFA]

You must be the expert then - when was the last time you tried? Recce'd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[airborne_artist]

I'm not the expert. But I know it takes place.

[Trim Stab]

V-22 power folding up for storage - great party trick - pretty quick & nice engineering !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_45a...&nohtml5=False

The maintenance required to keep that aircraft operating must be phenomenal. Why does it even require powered folding? I would have thought manual folding would be sufficient, would be lighter, less maintenance and cheaper.

[MOSTAFA]

Then you don't and only think you know what takes place. But I am far more interested in if anybody has any experience is this thing doing a quickstop. There must be somebody current or with experience on type. Check your pm's AA.

[Tourist]

MOSTAFA

Define quickstop.

I think it is safe to say it takes longer to come to a hover/zero zero from it's cruising speed than a Blackhawk or Chinook.

[chinook240]

The quick stop manoeuvre is a helicopter technique, but as the V22 isn't a helicopter is it a valid question? This article is interesting http://www.verticalmag.com/features/features_article/20112-flying-the-v-22.html

[MOSTAFA]

Perhaps the word quickstop is confusing albeit I can't imagine why. If it isn't a helicopter what is it?

Good article, which scares me even more especially the para about engine/s failing like: "Autorotations are taught and practiced in simulators with varying degrees of success. The simulators are designed to indicate a crash if any structural load limitations are exceeded; most autorotations end in a red screen. The truth of whether an autorotation is survivable, though, is hard to define. Chances are that an autorotation in an Osprey would be an extremely difficult maneuver, with survival owed more to luck than skill."

Let's tell that to the extremely well trained and valuable people in the back.

Don't get me wrong I think it's a fabulous machine that's possibly the way forward in 50 or so years with an awful lot of limitations.

[Tourist]

Luckily, MOSTAFA, the people currently operating them with great success and happiness couldn't give a toss whether you think it is ready now.

Yes, the pax could worry about the possibility of a double engine failure, (that really common event:rolleyes:) or they could instead enjoy the vast extra capability that the beast provides.

[MOSTAFA]

Luckily, Tourist I couldn't give a toss what you think either; and long may the people operating them continue to operate them safely. Hopefully, that really common event you are so certain of, continues not to happen but if it ever does I'd sure as sh*t like a bit more than the survival of everybody to be owed to luck, I much prefer skill with perhaps just a tad of luck.

[Tourist]

Out of interest, when you go on holiday, do you stress about the possibility of the Boeing 777 having a double engine failure?

I've heard that they are really tricky to auto too.

[MOSTAFA]

What a puerile comment, that sort of remark makes you sound simple. I'm guessing from the tourist bit, that's precisely your experience - take it from somebody that's experienced several engine failures, all in twin engined helicopters and all in aircraft I had my ars* strapped to; just because one fails it doesn't mean the other sod is guaranteed to keep going; especially when they just wind down on their own and usually the one still working becomes extremely limited. Gladly I have no more time to bandy words you.

[dragartist]

Just when two rotors are not enough!
Volocopter (http://www.e-volo.com/)
I am guessing that this machine has 18 electric motors. Not sure of the consequences should one fail but likely that the others can compensate. Battery capacity will limit range and payload but in another 50 years who knows.


On a serious note I am not sure UK can afford to buy and operate the V22. I am in awe of the machine and have seen first hand what it can do at YPG also had the opportunity to crawl all over the machine at Mildenhall.

[CoffmanStarter]

Drag ...

Another interesting 'concept' ... Especially if you were to loose a donkey :eek:

https://defensesystems.com/~/media/GIG/Defense%20Systems/Web/2015/MarApril/FVLconcept.png

More detail here on the US Future Vertical Lift Project ...

US FVLP (https://defensesystems.com/articles/2015/03/02/army-future-vertical-lift-aircraft-project.aspx?m=2)

[Tourist]

What a puerile comment, that sort of remark makes you sound simple. I'm guessing from the tourist bit, that's precisely your experience - take it from somebody that's experienced several engine failures, all in twin engined helicopters and all in aircraft I had my ars* strapped to; just because one fails it doesn't mean the other sod is guaranteed to keep going; especially when they just wind down on their own and usually the one still working becomes extremely limited. Gladly I have no more time to bandy words you.

How exactly is pointing out that the consequences of a double engine failure in a V22 is very similar to the consequences of a double engine failure in a 777 puerile?

Both are vanishingly unlikely, and both are likely to be catastrophic yet for some reason you have decided to hold the V22 to some kind of higher standard.

p.s. I'm really impressed by your engine failure dits.:rolleyes:

[Wander00]

CS - isn't that one of those things you control with an iPad?

[chopper2004]

I attended Farnborough 2012 and here are my photos of the 'Black Knights' MV-22B

cheers

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger066/255389_10151692442601490_356420060_n_zpsjpi6vhsi.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger065/428914_10151692444561490_1228859287_n_zpsogeqdafp.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger065/563294_10151692443051490_517057305_n_zpsysr48wmh.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger065/318861_10151692451991490_941624466_n_zpsliixmnpt.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger065/558432_10151692452081490_932529065_n_zpsq68sbeg7.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger065/306807_10151692452201490_1614241101_n_zpsp7hhazl1.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger065/425413_10151692452636490_2145711864_n_zps6vtoalb4.jpg

[MightyGem]

I attended Farnborough 2012I see your Farnborough 2012, and raise you Kitty Hawk, 17 Dec 2003:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MightyGem/KH026_zps4ijacclu.jpg

:ok: :ok:

[LowObservable]

Luckily, MOSTAFA, the people currently operating them with great success and happiness couldn't give a toss whether you think it is ready now.

Yo, Tourist, there's a bloke on another thread who's always complaining about bickering, and the sneaky :mad:'s using your handle! Just thought you should know.

[dead_pan]

Another interesting 'concept'

Didn't they do that in Avatar?

[Lonewolf_50]

I've heard that they are really tricky to auto too. That's because, in the 777, when you get to the bottom of the autorotation you realize that you haven't got a collective to pull up, and that your flare just stalled you! :oh::}

As to autos in a V-22, I had a look at the NATOPS manual a few years ago. I think "sporting" is how I'd describe the profile. As long as you can walk away from a real one, you win.

If any of you drop over to the first or second V-22 thread you'll see a few discussions about Autos in the Osprey.

[tonker]

We should have kept the Fairey Rotodyne. At least it's cockpit wouldn't have all those fingerprints on it.

WHYYYYY touch the bloody screen?

[Flying_Anorak]

Assuming it's not a touch screen, maybe its because like my colleagues, there are some who can't point to anything on my monitor without actually touching the bloody screen with their big digits!

[sandiego89]

MOSTAFA.....If it isn't a helicopter what is it?.....



It is a tiltrotor. Period. It is not a helicopter. For decades folks have been trying to point this out, and some still insist on thinking only in helicopter or fixed wing terms. Note the author of the linked article uses the aircraft term- highlighting the needs to view the V-22 differently that a strict helicopter.


The main customer, the U.S. Marines wanted an aircraft to transform vertical envelopment- bringing a vast improvement in speed and range as part of updated doctrine. Not the beach assault or flying into a hot LZ of decades past.


As a tiltrotor it can do a bit of both helicopter and fixed wing flying. Critics call it a lousy helicopter or a lousy fixed wing turbo prop. Proponents highlight that it can do a bit of both. It can hover, it can maneuver low and slow. Perhaps not as nimble as the best helicopter- but is that an absolute requirement?


Is it the best aircraft to be in with a slow speed double flame out auto-rotation? Of course not. Is it an aircraft that can maneuver you around the enemy? Perhaps.


Yes it is a heavily compromised design, and has had a host of problems, but it requires a bit of different thinking.

[Mahonda]

V22 just flew over my cuckoo's nest. Won't say when, where, direction so I won't getted modded out. I'll just say over London. Impressive to see and hear, but I couldn't see the markings.

[Bollotom]

Very impressive sight surrounded by some helicopters. Had an unobstructed view from North to South before it disappeared among the tall buildings. Wonder if it may be lining up for HM's birthday. It was in landing/take off configuration. :cool:

[dragartist]

Took e-mail earlier this evening from a mate who had been out Mildenhall way. Green with gold stripe. Guessing Marine 1 in relation to visit of a certain person.

[RAFEngO74to09]

There were indeed from the USMC HMX-1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC70np0dKs0

The V-22s are never used as "Marine 1" but provide utility, logistic and security support.

A VH-3D or a VH-60N will be used as "Marine 1".

MV-22B of HMX-1

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2921/13999992174_a2193c54b6_b.jpg

VH-3D (top) & VH-60N (bottom) of HMX-1

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/q2jtjwousvbfh87azubw.jpg

[dragartist]

Thanx RAF Eng O,
Just love the way the blades and wing folds.

[ICM]

It got quite noisy round here for about 30 minutes yesterday afternoon as all of these approached, landed and departed from the local airport. So it's not surprising that the local paper has got it:

Obama London visit: Stortford residents treated to fly-past ahead of US president's arrival | Herts & Essex Observer (http://www.hertsandessexobserver.co.uk/Obama-London-visit-Stortford-residents-treated/story-29138355-detail/story.html)

I imagine we'll get the real thing again in a day or two.

[chopper2004]

Here are my photos from yesterday's practice run escorted by NPAS's finest, in reality following the route to the capital

cheers

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger072/IMG_3031_zpsstxxfedl.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger072/IMG_3035_zpsewc2q8ei.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger072/IMG_3112_zpshbw7tjwx.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger072/IMG_3119_zpsf4c0rkt7.jpg