Comments on Warning letters

[Talparc]

Since the can of worms has been opened, we should as well discuss the
influence of this warning letter society on the flight safety.
Continued threatening of Pilots has for sure a great influence on their
performance and descision making.
Working in a constant environment of fear has a high price on your
health beside doing a full 90h roster or more.

[Nikita81]

Just be careful, Talparc, not to get a Warning letter "for negative influence on others", like I did. :}

[kumul1]

it could be a written verbal warning.;)

[Plank Cap]

Or a verbal written warning. Whatever, anyone who leaves an ME3 airline without some sort of warning just hasn't been trying .......

[glofish]

or a direct manual warning .....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgf_dpXizDE

[rocketsurgeon]

https://youtu.be/vVXEQ8hjyGI

[fatbus]

That was good!

[The Outlaw]

And the office oxygen wasters continue to send "you didn't do an engine out taxi on XX date...explain"

The real cost saving would be clearing out 1/3 of the staff in the bouncy castle then shutting down costa.

Muppets....

[harry the cod]

Really? you got letters asking for an explanation for not doing a single engine taxi? They must be after you mate, big time, cos I ain't heard dick since it became SOP.

Harry

[GoreTex]

I vote for shutting down costa to increase productivity

[The Outlaw]

Good for you Harry...put yourself down for a Najm or whatever other garbage makes you feel good.

Glad we have company men like you.

Muppets...

[falconeasydriver]

And the office oxygen wasters continue to send "you didn't do an engine out taxi on XX date...explain"

I never had a please explain during my time, but amazingly it always seemed to work out that just as I was about 10m from stopping, the 3 mins would be up and we would shut down number 2, amazing coincidence really...when you think about it :E:ok:

Www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEmD9SMEZ5U

P.S. Mods, this isn't advertising......its just downright distracting :E: I wonder who else would offer their "support"

[The Outlaw]

Tried that...see above.

I don't really give a **** either way...I do what I think is right on the day. Just pathetic (and reflects poorly on the brand) that they send out the snot grams...hence the waste of O2 and company space and resources from the bouncy castle. Who knows....money is tight these days...maybe they're not making the extra billion they targeted.

Mind you nothing is said when the station pisses away 2000 KG because they can't get off their lazy asses and plug in the external power....no no..thats just too difficult for a 90 minute turn.


Its amazing that these people feel no embarrassment or shame...

[The Outlaw]

Falcon,

I never saw a thing...

[Gunman returns]

Utter Rubbish.
I have not done a single engine taxi at EK in 10 years including on line checks. Its a consideration not a requirement. No one would or could be asked to explain why they did not do it.

[helen-damnation]

and..... it's not SOP!

[Airbuspilot72]

Recently got a second level warning directly i.e. No 1st level warning. The reason was that I got a 2 on day one of PPC whereas it was trained to proficiency with a 4 on next day. But the local God sitting in the fleet office decided to exercise his mystical powers and handed over a warning letter ;);)

[fatbus]

A warning letter for what?

[SOPS]

Which was meant to prove what?

[cerbus]

That the local population with no people skills to say nothing of management skills will dictate to you what they want all the while ordering more Costa coffee and ordering more Warning Letters. All for what?
Whose resigning and when? That's another thread.

[Odins Raven]

That the local population with no people skills to say nothing of management skills will dictate to you what they want all the while ordering more Costa coffee and ordering more Warning Letters. All for what?
Whose resigning and when? That's another thread.

Seriously? Warning letters for the sim check? What on earth is going on out there these days?

Regarding single engine taxi - Boeing won't write a procedure as they have stated in the FCTM. Since it's their plane and they don't sell SE taxi as a plus point it seems they don't recommend it... it's up to the airline to come up with a supplementary procedure having assessed the risks. And in that supplementary procedure there is a long list of reasons when NOT to do it... and they all pretty much apply to every flight.

Therefore if you get it wrong they more than likely can put the blame on you as you didn't follow the supplementary procedure. So please make sure you know that list before you shut that engine down!

To be fair I never had an email to explain my reasons for not doing SE taxi.

I know that the common trick is to shut one down as you approach the gate but this could potentially distract you at a critical time and you might have trouble justifying it to the prosecution in court...

It all comes back to my favorite safety motto:

"THE REAL ENEMY OF SAFETY IS NOT NON-COMPLIANCE, BUT NON-THINKING"

A quote from Dr Rob Long courtesy of EK's excellent Human Factors office ;-)

[Talparc]

Airbuspilot72

Yes this is insane but you are still lucky, there are guys who got a warning for a failed PPC which was never failed! Answer from DCPA: It is considered an internal fail

Those guys don't know what they are doing, ruining their company.
But be assured they are the next ones beeing punished in the future.

[The Outlaw]

Odins,

The brightest of our readership can't seem to fathom that such letters are in fact being sent out. Calling any such action incomprehendable or something to such an effect is just indicative of the ostrich effect so many of the weak succumb to here. The truth is that they are being sent out and perhaps its just a question of time before you or others receive one.

While its entirely true that engine out taxi is not SOP... (DUH...) these warning are being generated by muppets with enough undeserved and uncontrolled power to eventually end your career should your record of non compliance get large enough. Perhaps they are looking for heads to hunt but I respect those individuals who won't bend over..however some do, and that just helps the muppets along in their game.

Just keep a resignation letter with you at all times and fill out the date when you've finally had enough...but NEVER sell out your self respect or dignity to these people.

It's not the company of 10 years ago.....

[SOPS]

What is an 'internal fail' ? And who decides the criteria for such?

[Talparc]

SOPS, The Outlaw:
good question but as they are not the smartest brains out there it seems they just use any excuse that might suit them, but I know from several cases where people now go to court to find out the truth.

who decides?
MM knows about it but covers up everything, the local in sandals orders his DCPA to do the dirty job and HR sits there and watches with a smile.
And the useless Fleet Managers just keep on bothering Pilots with threatening emails telling them when to show up for this theatrical event.
Some warning letter hand over ceremony events have even been taped by the attendants to produce evidence what is going on.
STASI is back but thats a different story/fleet!?

Looks like there is more stuff on the way the public might be interested in, eventually passengers will find out what Airlines not to use in the future anymore as they voluntarily endanger their safety in the sake of profit.
A Brand is falling apart

[Emma Royds]

Just keep a resignation letter with you at all times and fill out the date when you've finally had enough...but NEVER sell out your self respect or dignity to these people.

I agree.

The days of warning letters being used as an instrument to create fear and retain control by management are long gone. The ultimate response to any warning letter is showing two fingers to the company by immediately submitting your resignation on receipt of any childish letter.

EK is merely a job at the end of the day and nothing more.

We are professionals and have worked hard to be where we are in our careers. Never lower yourself to the level where you are treated like a kid who has repeatedly misbehaved in the school playground, where a warning letter is more appropriate.

[Airbuspilot72]

Emma Royds

Absolutely agree with you. We are professionals rendering our services where as these guys treat us like drivers.

I am just exploring my options and within a month would hand them over my resignation along with the warning letter which they gave me.

[harry the cod]

Airbuspilot72

Please check the employee regulations and those relating to disciplinary proceedings. It's quite clear when and for what reasons warnings can be given and the different categories and levels.

I would assume yours is classified as a 'capability' warning? It doesn't effect profit share but it may be worth appealing depending on the level they've given you. Ie, final. If it's just a written warning, you would not be able to appeal but a final warning would require a previous misdemeanour.

How sad that we have to be discussing issues like this on a public forum. EK management....take note! :ugh:

Harry

[Old King Coal]

Over here on the dangerous side, I put the first (& last) warning letter that I got to v.good use, by wiping my arse with it... no point wasting good toilet paper, eh? ;)

[Nikita81]

Please check the employee regulations and those relating to disciplinary proceedings. It's quite clear when and for what reasons warnings can be given and the different categories and levels.You are kidding, Harry, right? Old King Coal can save even more toilet paper by using the employee regulations and those relating to disciplinary proceedings instead of it.

Harry, most things you say are just funny, but some of them are utterly naive (if we give you a benefit of doubt and assume that you are not a management troll). There is no law above Emirates Airline. No manager is obligated to respect and follow any internal rule or procedure. The whole **** with Emirates is happening because nobody respects its procedures, there is no consistency in application of the rules or instructions.

That is why those procedures can be clear as Old King Coal's toilet after flushing, when many of them are violated and misused.

I will give you my example: I was called for a disciplinary meeting and was left with 24 hours to prepare myself when Employee Regulations Manual clearly says that employee must be given 48 hours before the disciplinary meeting.

[harry the cod]

Nikita81

Utterly naive? It wasn't me that was summarily dismissed for trying to change the system.

I know full well how things work in this part of the World. I had many years aviation experience before I came here and arrived with my eyes fully wide open. I choose to pick my battles. Thankfully, there are few. Not because I'm management or a sycophantic stooge but because I go to work and do the job professionally and to the best of my ability. That's what age and experience has taught me. The job pays well and provides a comfortable standard of living. I don't stir the pot.

However, if the day ever should arise where the job's benefits are outweighed by the negatives, I'll leave. If before then I'm subject to unfair treatment, bullying, discrimination or intimidation in any form, I'll ensure that the terms of the employee handbook and it's rules and regulations are complied with. On both sides. Contrary to belief, this Company has had several legal claims brought against for unfair dismissal and has lost. All have been settled out of court. I know this for a fact.

So please, before you start throwing stones again, just check you're not in the greenhouse, ok! :=

Harry

[Nikita81]

Harry, you are a good fairy tales teller. You even tell them to yourself.

Changing the system is not done yet, so save your comments for later. Hell, EK would benefit the most at this moment if they just hire me again.

I am not afraid to be fired. Especially if the working environment doesn't comply with my personal ethics. Are you?

[Talparc]

Surprisingly more and more guys seem to get a capability warning during training.
What is wrong in this company to punish Pilots during their training?

That means that training has been removed by checking again!

MM is too quite here but was his agenda not the opposite?

[donpizmeov]

I believe the warning in training is driven by HR. Fltops/training is a toothless entity.

[harry the cod]

Don

This is where the system is broke. HR should be there FOR the employee protecting the processes and regulations under which they are work, not against them as a vehicle to admonish staff and keep them in line.

Harry

[Nikita81]

Managers are afraid to act. Having professional integrity is not allowed in EK. Culture of fear is so deeply internalized that even local managers get warning letters (I was really surprised to find out that my ASM - airport services manager, who is local, has a final warning. He told me that when I asked him why he never protects his staff from passengers' abuse).

The paradox of the whole situation with my case is that by defending my own rights, I defend the rights of locals and many of them approached to talk to me while I was at the airport.

So, blaming spineless managers with no integrity indeed will raise the awareness about the need for change, but things will not and can not start to change with puppet managers with tied hands, but with engaging consistent rules and laws. Being lawless is the greatest problem of Emirates Airline. There is no mechanism to protect the employees and achieve justice, and there are no consistent and safe rules to rely on. Anything can happen to anyone and in these circumstances people become backstabbing and frightened wolves and system falls into chaos. And incompetent managers, who select other incompetent managers to work with, just use the system for their own benefit, damaging the company in the process.

There is no justice or mutual respect among managers and the rest of the employees in EK. So, media involvement in EK's case can help them a lot to keep their business running but only if they learn something from the whole situation of exposing their internal problems and change for better. The alternative was a slow and silent degradation into abyss. Media exposure is an opportunity for them and I hope they are smart enough to see and act on it.

All we did was turning their arrogance agaist them. If they want to retrieve their image, they have to stop being arrogant and get rid of disposabe staff policy by introducing a firm system for employees to rely on. Starting with ban of warning system.

Edit: oh, yes, and they have to stop their greedy growth because they have no capable human resources to grow so fast and they've nourished bastard management system with no future.

[donpizmeov]

Harry,

The whole system is a festering mess. The inept are buying MBAs, coming up with obscene ideas (anyone remember how the DEWA cap was introduced?) and running roughshod over those with capability. To think that HR has been allowed to grow, and now be the ultimate controller of every other department is appalling. The contempt shown by them in those Wash ups we were made to sit through is just a brief insight to the way they see all other employees.

Flight Ops have no control over rostering, no control over required pilot numbers, and in reality, no control or input into any facet of their operation.
Only those who are part of the old boys club with TC have any clue of what's going on, and are allowed to decide on future direction. And no one in flight Ops has that club membership.

[Rather Be Skiing]

...
Flight Ops have no control over rostering, no control over required pilot numbers, and in reality, no control or input into any facet of their operation.
...

Bingo! Which is why, no matter what we are told by those in fleet, there is little chance of any real, positive change. The pilots as a group, of course, have near zero influence. Continuing deterioration of conditions is inevitable.

Stay or leave are the only options we have. We each have our personal threshold when leaving becomes the obvious choice. Staying in hopes of improvement, however, is just time lost.