Pilots' fatigue investigation [Archive]

Ana_Cleto

25th Mar 2016, 09:52

Hi Paula, thanks for your message.

I have to tell you that in my previous job I was a union representative, and my work was focused on dealing with media.

After some years there are quite a few things I have learned, and sorry to say, but I believe people has to know.

For journalists, their trending hashtag is like a trip for us: it brings money to the bag for some days, but as it runs old, the only thing in the horizon to keep the bike running is a different trip, a different article, a different hashtag, a different story. And you and I know that it is not you who decides what's trendy or not every morning.

More...it would not be the first time, nor it would be the last, that an amazing tale to be spread is just cut in half forever after some airline (or company related to any other industry) marketing manager calls to offer a nice advertising contract...exchanged by silence. You and me know this is true.

That day, two things will take place: first, the half told story remains dead until another tragedy resurrects it (because it is trendy again) and maybe, maybe...some guys that approached the story teller with hope are left out with nothing but the threat of their initials found out. About the last, don't get bothered, there's a lot of honest professionals everywhere and I bet you are one of them, but again, you and I know this has happened...

More...this is a sensible and specialized business at the same time, and I've long and strongly struggled with journalists to get them to tell about aviation related matters in a way that public understands but does not fall apart when it comes to being strict about what things really mean and stand for. You can do a lot of good with your articles, but the bottom line is thin, and can do a lot of bad to us who make a living out of this, spike fears among our clients and not serve the purpose you are seeking with good intention. Because, listen, there's a big bunch of fine stuff that could outcome your job, but most of the time in this issues the result ends up summarized in the eye catching material.

In my ideal world, long experience backgrounded, only professionals should write about some matters, and never be taken hostages for it, never fear that the truth has a price that is paid in the unemployment queue.

But we don't live in that world, so my advice to you and all is: be careful what you write, be careful what you say.

Thanks.

vfenext

25th Mar 2016, 10:38

Oh great RT Russia's answer to Fox News

Global_Global

25th Mar 2016, 10:42

Hi Paula, read your article https://www.rt.com/news/337128-emirates-pilots-fatigue-scandal/ and although not privy to the ins and outs at Emirates I appreciate you looking into this. Unfortunately this is not a Emirates related issue but an industry wide one including ColganAir in the US, various Lowcost outfits (including in Russia!) and it needs close attention...

dustyprops

25th Mar 2016, 11:31

Not an EK issue!!! You are joking right?

Paula all I would say is keep digging as you are doing a good thing, and giving a very public
voice to people who normal get told to 'shut up and get on with it or there's the door.'

Take some time to peruse some of the threads in the Middle East section and you'll get a flavor of what goes on. It'll also make it easy to spot the mgt trolls who try to counter the message but stand out like a sore thumb.

It's a VERY real issue, that as we've all seen can have horrific consequences.

fliion

25th Mar 2016, 11:53

So Ana- C

Tell us what RT have written in that article that is not true?

notapilot15

25th Mar 2016, 11:58

Paula

I am sure lot of pilots express gratitude silently for what you are doing. Most may not come out with information. Not that they don't want to, but the system is rigged to prevent from doing that.

Mgmt uses carrot (PR budget) and stick (worldwide legal reach) to suppress media. Unlike western media my hope RT is immune to both.

You may observe no other media outlets and aviation safety experts will pickup on this and RT will be discounted promptly. They care about their annual image/brand management contract revenues from airline, not safety.

Good luck

Mister Warning

25th Mar 2016, 12:39

PS - look into factoring, and 24 hr rest periods, at EK.

Fire Ball XL5

25th Mar 2016, 13:03

Factoring, Variations, Annex's, reduced rest, ....the list goes on. My compliments to the author for her work, and providing an outlet to so many.:ok::D

Mach_Krit

25th Mar 2016, 14:09

how about leaving home base knowing very well that you will have to use discretion on a multi-sector flight...:ugh::ugh::ugh:

de facto

25th Mar 2016, 14:46

Request to all regulators to impose a limit to changes in circadian rythms.
Ie a briefing at 10 pm,landing at 6 am followed by a briefing at 4 am followed by a landing 10 am ,followed by four sectors starting at 4 pm ending at midnight.
That would be a good start,see what they say.
Only regulators can change fatigue issue,airliners are just using the rules to the extreme,just as tax evaders do.

WrldWide

25th Mar 2016, 16:34

Give the journalist the benefit of the doubt. If one can inform without killing the goose then help them. What does it cost one to provide evidence? If the story dies after a week.... Well, it died. If it doesnt and the box gets opened for all and sundry to see.... Well it's there.

too_much

25th Mar 2016, 17:30

Just off topic but in your reports when you say the word "fatigue" you sound really aggressive. Just a word of advice to maybe soften up when using this word.

Talparc

25th Mar 2016, 17:52

too much:
sorry but fatique is a standing terminology.
There is nothing to soften!
And why, don't you wana see the truth?
Please go back to Costa!

jarops

25th Mar 2016, 23:03

EK Statement: Quote

“We never compromise safety and always operate within the legal regulatory requirements with regard to flying times, operating hours, and layover times in between flights for our pilots,” Emirates PR Manager Rula Tadros wrote in an email.

CAR-OPS stated prior to JAN 2016 revision: LRO (Long Range Operation), any flight time over 14 hours the layover at off base location should be minimum 48 hours. However the note at the end of the paragraph said: all pairings accepted prior to the revision can be operated as approved.
New revision JAN 2016 is changed. The entire paragraph regarding the LRO has been removed, including the statement above. I tried to find any relating limitations regarding LRO in the current CAROPS, it is just vanished. Can somebody point out that I am incorrect in this matter? For who's benefit this goes again and by who.

fatbus

26th Mar 2016, 03:19

It did say "should".

Aluminium shuffler

26th Mar 2016, 05:39

It's the same the world over; the difference one word can make, changing "shall" to "should". That way, authorities can lay out the rules, but tacitly let companies flout them without it bouncing back in the authorities' laps when it all goes awry. It is a global problem, not just local, this attitude to regulations and looking for loopholes, and appears in almost every industry.

It is because money men run almost all of those industries, and non-specific bureaucrats run the authorities and regulators, not professionals relevant to that industry (like doctors running hospitals, teachers running schools or engineers running construction or manufacturing businesses or regulators). The money men and bureaucrats have complete detachment from what their business is actually about, only comprehending spreadsheets, rather than the business and its staff. It appears to resemble some kind of autism.

break dancer

26th Mar 2016, 09:00

Captain's discretion is exactly what it says.

Very tricky to decline a flight departing home base on a multi sector day claiming you will enter discretion as that will only be the case on the final sector. You can then say no and get a lay over at the hotel on minimum rest. I know of a Capt that packs an overnight kit for just such an occasion.

I have refused discretion departing DXB on single sector flights 3 times and have never heard anything from HQ either during or after the fact. A lot of pressure but if sticking to what you believe then crewing will back down.

Just have to pick your battles and avoid the ones you will never win.

Twiglet1

26th Mar 2016, 09:36

Aluminium
It's the same the world over; the difference one word can make, changing "shall" to "should". That way, authorities can lay out the rules, but tacitly let companies flout them without it bouncing back in the authorities' laps when it all goes awry. It is a global problem, not just local, this attitude to regulations and looking for loopholes, and appears in almost every industry.
EASA doesn't have too many "should's" its been tightened up a lot. It has also stopped a few crew practices such as swapping rosters to get back to backs and loads of off days (fatigue goes out the window then funnily enough)

jarops

26th Mar 2016, 10:17

Fatbus, what is your f#€ing point to answer "should"? That is so irrelevant. There is the question mark at the end of the post. If you don't have anything to write then the word "should", don't do it at all. You miss the point here. My question was genuine to ask if any of the guys knows where GCAA placed the regulations regarding the LRO operations?

rolloutflare

26th Mar 2016, 10:50

Some of you are real jerks in responding to such proper request from media personnel. I can't think of a more appropriate and respectful manner in soliciting information in this professional forum with name and credentials provided.

Here's how it should go, first and foremost, Thank You, Paula, for your time and effort in addressing an important aspect of our profession, especially in this part of the world.

Since I do not have anything helpful to furnish, I do apologize for wasting your time in reading this. Just can't stand the pxxxxs who are never satisfied with anything in their lives.

fliion

26th Mar 2016, 11:32

How do you know the "pxxxxx" on here haven't already contacted Paula.

Talparc

26th Mar 2016, 11:41

Guys that is our only chance to get heared out there, so take the straw and help the evil system to come to fall!

How many straws do you need?

The chance is here now!

notapilot15

26th Mar 2016, 11:41

Even if GCAA follows EU CAR.OPS FTL rules to the letter, night time curfew at European airports should provide some relief to EU pilots. Am I wrong making this assertion??

Talparc

26th Mar 2016, 11:43

notapilot15:

totally right, here we fly around the clock!
Just look at the midnight peak at DXB what is going on here!

Talparc

26th Mar 2016, 12:06

IFALPA now involved as well

Pilot Federation on Emirates Airline: Crews' Fatigue Threat to Safety / Sputnik International (http://m.sputniknews.com/world/20160325/1036975673/pilots-fatigue-aviation-safety-emirates.html)

Aluminium shuffler

26th Mar 2016, 12:20

Notapilot, curfews are far from universal, and with the time zone changes, are of limited benefit to us.

The biggest problem is the number of 24 hour rest periods, which is the worst possible duration - go to sleep on arrival at the hotel and you report to work after a long period (12hrs+) of being awake. Try to stay awake on check in and you're extending a long day even more, which needs longer sleep. We need odd multiples of 12Hrs. It was in JAROps to avoid multiples of 24hr rest for that very reason. It would be difficult to schedule anything else at outstations where there is one flight per day. That it is the norm at home base is disappointing.

notapilot15

26th Mar 2016, 12:58

Aluminium shuffler

I understand and I was trying to compare Ryanair and Emirates. Even if Ryanair want to make its pilots work more harder it cannot because airports are closed. Makes Ryanair better working environment than EK/FZ.

EK/FZ with no local curfew and unlimited destinations, there is no limit to productivity.

Emma Royds

26th Mar 2016, 13:11

Talparc

Are you also positing under the guise of in freedom as well? :}

Talparc

26th Mar 2016, 13:22

Emma, sorry I don't get your hint?
Just go ahead drinking coffee in costa!

what_goes_up

26th Mar 2016, 13:55

Talparc, In freedom et al... Just for my understanding...
Whoever does not agree with you must be management?
I should go and have my paygrade adjusted then... :D

I, for myself and from own experience go with Ana Cleto and would never trust a journo (nor a foreign union, especially not the Draculas of VC)with any kind of sensible information. It WILL be held against you/us/the industry... once they have reached a goal or media coverage is not paying out anymore.
Just another word to promised anonymity... Forget it. You will be presented as soon as some pressure is put on.
This does not mean that I agree with what is going on in EK, but for me, this is the wrong way to go.
And yes, you will find me at Costa's... every time before I walk into the briefing room on departure level.

fliion

26th Mar 2016, 15:14

What_goes_up

Fair enough re some journos

Okay all ears. What is the right way to go?

notapilot15

26th Mar 2016, 15:38

what_goes_up

What do you mean by foreign? It is a zero fatality event as far as owners and management are concerned. It is also a zero financial loss event considering insurance company pays for the plane.

Like vortex said, they rolled the dice, may be their model predicted 400+ Indian lives will be lost which wouldn't be considered a big loss. Unfortunately 40 Russians lost their lives and Russia/RT is not going to let it easy.

fatbus

26th Mar 2016, 15:50

Jarops . OMA 0.1.6.1

GoreTex

26th Mar 2016, 16:40

vfenext
you are an extreme not smart person

search for spock

26th Mar 2016, 17:03

Fatigue is a huge issue in the airline industry .. I am in disbelief at what an airline / governing body allows a pilot to work and think it's safe .. they know that if there's a big accident that does not involve a technical problem with the aircraft then it will probably be labeled as PILOT ERROR , never the airlines / employers fault ... . Its not unusual for businesses to put fear and pressure on its employees . The difference in our job is that of hundreds of lifes are continually put at risk because of it ..

Emma Royds

26th Mar 2016, 17:43

Emma, sorry I don't get your hint?
Just go ahead drinking coffee in costa!

I think previous posts will prove I am most certainly not a regular visitor to Costa within the Atrium. All I was saying is that there seems to be a uncanny similarity between the posts between Talparc and in freedom.

Whilst I am all in favour of change, how much lobbying to the press is required before we see our masters bow to pressure from press articles? For EK to make any favourable changes in the wake of the crash would be tantamount to an admission of guilt. It would also be an extremely embarrassing move for them to make, given the timing. Moreover our management would never wish to be seen to be placed with their backs against the wall by their own employees. The harsh reality is that the company will not take action unless they are forced to by a higher authority i.e. a regulator.

If you wish to lobby then perhaps targeting elsewhere within Russia, other than the media may perhaps be more successful? Whether or not fatigue was a contributing factor is up to the Air Accident Investigation Commission to decide but the Russians do have for the time being at least, significantly more leverage than many other foreign regulators. The credibility of the GCAA and the future viability of FlyDubai is largely within their hands. The Russians are also in the rather unique situation, whereby they have little to fear should they wish to bring the GCAA and/or FlyDubai into disrepute. Any political scandal that may ensue, would be nothing more than a 'storm in a tea cup' for the Russians.

In Russia it is very much a case of who you know and not what you know. Maybe looking towards a pilot union in Russia instead, maybe more lucrative than you may care to think? Just a thought.

Aluminium shuffler

26th Mar 2016, 17:50

Notapilot, most RYR airports are curfew free, so I don't understand what you mean.

I have to agree with the comments by What Goes Up - I'd be surprised if confidential sources were not disclosed when the inevitable libel cases start. Be careful what you say, and make sure you have records that substantiate claims.

dustyprops

26th Mar 2016, 17:58

EGGY1

Thanks ol chap you've made my point perfectly.....standing out like a sore thumb.

I think you're made......time to retire that name and try, yet again, with another one.

Enjoy Costa!

Sky7

26th Mar 2016, 18:30

Agreed, not another ADD or TRV turnaround. Ultimately after all the pressure, T7 drivers finally got augmented crew to operate the MLE sector!

in freedom

26th Mar 2016, 18:40

Aluminium shuffler

I support your point that everything going out to the press must be truthful. By the way they check your evidence because they are afraid of missteps.

Court case in Europe? It would be my pleasure to present all the evidence in front of a Western court. (starting to think about a Russian court)

Never heard anything from the company after the WSJ. The last thing they sent me was an altered medical record. More proof.

@Emma. Seriously, Talparc and me one person? Give me a buzz when you're in Munich and I will buy you a beer to chill.

Talparc

26th Mar 2016, 19:46

Quote:
Moreover our management would never wish to be seen to be placed with their backs against the wall by their own employees

@ Emma
this is exactly happening, it's just a matter of time

and sorry for the costa stuff

notapilot15

26th Mar 2016, 20:33

Aluminium shuffler

RT is like EK. Both are above laws. Perfect match. I wouldn't trust any western media/journalists at this point. They all are in EK's pocket.

Having said that, at least here in USA there is a discovery process, if EK sues someone EK has to open all its books to defense attorneys. With the group's reputation worldwide every one will have a field day.

Same reason though Sir TC threatened several times, never sued US carriers for their allegations of creative accounting/subsidies ...

Sure they can force a western internet forum to give up user ids.

fliion

27th Mar 2016, 05:52

Article in NY Times this morning saying the Russians are now initiating a criminal investigation and quoted a source as saying "chronic fatigue" could be contributory factor - they cited a Russian TV report that has access to data on recorders.

Here is an extract, for some reason cannot coy and paste entire article or link (can anyone?)

-----

"The channel emphasized that its interpretation of the transcript could not be considered the official version of what had happened.

Flying from Dubai, the plane was not able to land on its first attempt because of heavy rain and wind, and it entered a holding pattern for two hours. On the second landing attempt, the crew decided to pull up and try again, but 40 seconds after beginning the ascent, one of the pilots switched off the autopilot, possibly in response to sudden turbulence, the report said. Seconds after the autopilot was turned off, the plane plunged to the ground.

“Don’t worry,” one of the pilots says, according to the transcript, which was translated into Russian, seconds before saying, “Don’t do that!” The last words recorded were repeated calls to “Pull up!” Only “inhuman screams” could be heard for the last six seconds.

The television channel cited experts who suggested that by turning off the autopilot, the pilots were trying to pull the plane back to a horizontal position. But at that moment a stabilizing fin at the jet’s tail was switched on.

With the fin activated, “the elevator is no longer working and the plane practically does not react to the pilot’s control panel,” the report said. The channel suggested that the pilot could have accidentally hit the button that activated the fin because of his reported “chronic fatigue.”

----

Talparc

27th Mar 2016, 08:50

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/27/world/europe/flydubai-crash-russia.html?&moduleDetail=section-news-1&action=click&contentCollection=Europe&region=Footer&module=MoreInSection&version=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&pgtype=article

de facto

27th Mar 2016, 09:11

The biggest problem is the number of 24 hour rest periods, which is the worst possible duration - go to sleep on arrival at the hotel and you report to work after a long period (12hrs+) of being awake. Try to stay awake on check in and you're extending a long day even more, which needs longer sleep. We need odd multiples of 12Hrs. It was in JAROps to avoid multiples of 24hr rest for that very reason. It would be difficult to schedule anything else at outstations where there is one flight per day. That it is the norm at home base is disappointing.
Aluminum,
That is indeed the biggest fatigue issue i experience regularly.
24 hrs rest changing sleeping pattern on a continuous basis is way more tiring than minimum rest in a same day/night pattern.
It also increases chances of cancer apparently...i recall reading it on BBC.

ps123

27th Mar 2016, 14:05

I want to thank everyone for getting in touch. I know it’s not easy. Thank you for taking us into your trust and know that your confidentiality will be protected. This is a huge story for RT and we will run with it for as long as possible. But personally I want to promise you that I will stay on it – even when it is no longer breaking news I will still continue to investigate. Anything that anyone thinks of that is a new angle or new development, please let me know as this helps push the story back into the public eye. Best of luck to you all and please stay safe. My deepest respect, Paula Slier [email protected]

NewBird

27th Mar 2016, 15:29

Dear PS123,
thank you for bringing the issue in forefront. Much respect!
However - why just one sided reporting - someone not familiar with the issue would (rightfully) argue - that you have an axe to grind with the airlines. There would be more respect - if you put views from both sides together and let your viewers decide. Is that not what your profession would want u to do? As i mentioned i respect you to have taken up this issue - but there are many of my other colleagues who are flying and who may have a different story to tell? They continue to be happy flying and doing their job. Would we call them lackeys and management stooges? If you do - then i lose my respect for you. You have a difficult job to do. Fatigue is reported everwhere - in the US, in Europe, in your own country, In the middle east, in Far East....I bet each region could have its own scandal....Fatigue, unfortunately is subjective.....why do pilots work in middle east?? - because they get paid jolly good - period!! All this talk of modern slavery - yeah take out the pay (avg capt pay is around 200K+) and limousine transportation and premium villas and then talk of slavery - otherwise its just BS....I'm sorry, but thats the truth!

Buford

27th Mar 2016, 15:38

NewBird, Who are you exactly? And why the sudden interest in Pprune? I just happened to read Paula's response and from a wife's perspective (full admission - husband just left for work and I saw the screen open), I am thankful that attention is now being brought to this issue. The kids don't get to see their Dad near enough, and by the time he's actually home he's exhausted. I've seen too many good pilots and their families suffer because of health issues due to ridiculous long hours and poor scheduling practices (day/night flights & min.rest). Paula's message above just about brought a tear to my eye - for once someone cares enough to expose this mess for what it is. What has happened at FZ is heartbreaking and families have been affected irreparably. Management has plenty to answer for.

nolimitholdem

27th Mar 2016, 15:42

hahaha classic!

"NewBird" shows up with their very first post to defend the poor, beleaguered airline management just trying to eke out a living...I would welcome the "other side of the story", except the management know they don't have a leg to stand on. They hide behind their silence and cozy regulators.

Why don't you have your happy colleagues come forward then?

Pilots work in the Middle East for many, many different reasons. I myself went because I had no job and EK was the first to call - it was certainly no dream of mine to go there. Many others come because their home countries are disintegrating or increasingly dangerous to live in. Think South Africa, Zimbabwe, Venezuela to name only a few...

Your comments to try and paint ME pilots as overpaid or money-hungry are pathetically transparent envy and your language such as "jolly good" is a dead giveaway as to your country of origin...finish your coffee at the atrium Costa and get back to your cubicle!

tarik123

27th Mar 2016, 16:03

I have been flying for more than 30 years and never experienced extreme fatigue until I joined an airline that is implementing the new Far 117 American rules. it is the worst I have ever seen. the rest time is 10 hours no matter of the previous duty time. Or the time you start your rest. The 30 minutes after chocks on are considered part of rest. you can go for up to 6 sectors a day.....

notapilot15

27th Mar 2016, 19:23

newbird

Dubai may not be collecting payroll taxes, but it marks up enough on everything else to take it back.

Considering the hours of work EK captains are putting, if they strictly calculate they won't be making more than first world private carriers or third world state owned carriers. Only difference Dubai is providing simulated first world life style/quality of life.

Limos are part of company's resource management system. You don't want a slackers to get comfy and sleep any longer.

Every advertised employee benefit has an underlying REAL benefit to the company/management.

Why are pilots joining? You go dump capacity and force their original employers out of business so they don't have many options left.

Why is EK having trouble poaching type-rated pilots now? Because other airlines got smarter and stopped training or imposing stricter contracts on their own employees.

With comments like yours even those holding out of professional courtesy will start spilling beans.

Talparc

27th Mar 2016, 20:23

Notapilot15

well said, couldn't agree more!

CaptainChipotle

27th Mar 2016, 21:39

Tarik

Really? You're weak. When you flew so many sectors a day, how many time zones did you cross?

You're flat white is ready at Costa.

Fatigue is a major issue at a company when that company uses legal LIMITS as guidelines.

As far as management and reporters are concerned... My suggestion is that our managers fly our rosters and the reporters sit in the jump seat.

"Oh hey, it's called a shared rest day", or, "I know we just got off a 16hr flight 2 days ago but we are going to do a 12hr duty day in the middle of the night because we can take advantage of longer duty rules"

Or the BEST: "hey, it's legal".

Good luck to all.
All the management that are on alert, all the reporters searching for a scoop, and all the pilot professionals just trying to do our job to the best of our abilities.

tarik123

27th Mar 2016, 22:06

CaptainChipotle

27th Mar 2016, 22:31

Chiptole,

I understand what crossing a time zone is, I have done it for a very very long time.
But flying 4 or more sectors every day, were you start at night and finish in the morning, by midday you are supposed to take your 10 hours rest. and back to the airport to start another 12 hours duty.
Every month 90 plus flight duty hours, with around 70 sectors per month.
I did ask the management to try one week of the schedule, but as always they had much more important things to do. Then I asked the planner to sit in the jump seat for a week and see if would be able to stay awake. but that was not possible either. all because the computer said the flight was legal.

So my advice to all, try to get into management as soon as possible.

Well it looks like you're in management, so good work! This isn't a forum for "American work rules", however, let me enlighten you. Having previous experience, doing up to 6 sectors a day with "reduced rest" patterns built into our rosters, the "tiredness" I had in the US isn't comparable to the fatigue 90+Hr rosters changing many time zones myself and my colleagues have here.

I doubt you have the experience you say you do. Most people who read these forums, aside from yourself, are well educated.

Now get back to formulating those warning letters...

SOPS

28th Mar 2016, 02:57

Looks to me that someone has quickly cranked up some Costa dwellers to try and defend the indefensible .......

kotakota

28th Mar 2016, 05:30

It's nearly 5 years since I quit the airline to the south of Dubai . I was 62 , 3 years to retirement , generally happy with where I was etc , but the flying and rostering finally got to me .
The FTL were adhered to , everything was ' Legal' , but the bulk of the flying , for expats anyway , was 0100 checkin / departures for India etc , returning at 1000 , usually followed by another same duty that night , and sometimes yet another after that ( which I never did ) . The premise was that your rest period would be spent by going to bed at 1130 and sleeping like a baby until 2300 and returning to work completely refreshed . Circadian rhythms were not to be considered . If you managed two lots of 2-3 hours sleep that was your problem , the airline had provided you with the opportunity to sleep all day !
I , and another 62 year old went to management and requested job share , which would have given them 1200 hours of Captain flying for the price of 900 . We were point blank refused as they thought us cunning expats were pulling a fast one somehow . My colleague succumbed to a fatal stroke at the controls while performing another dawn landing at Jaipur a few months later . My resignation followed the next day , to,protests that the company doctors had assured them that the pestering had NOTHING to do with my friends death . It was all legal you see .

ironbutt57

28th Mar 2016, 06:07

This isn't a forum for "American work rules"

its about pilot fatigue isn't it?..the farcical notion that becoming fatigued requires crossing many time zones is one quickly dispelled when operating under the "improved" USA FTL's...

troff

28th Mar 2016, 06:15

Can anyone remember when factoring started?

JAYTO

28th Mar 2016, 06:48

Why do people think that fatigue is caused by crossing multiple time zones????

The reasons we are fatigued our both the companies fault and sometimes the crews fault.

How many times do you get to a destination where the local time is 6pm and the time in dubai is 4 am and people are "meeting downstairs in an hour to go for dinner"
Why do people insist on trying to acclimatise to a new time zone within the time we spend there???? Staying on Dubai time will help alleviate some of the fatigue.

The reason from the companies side are more. They state in the OMA section 7.2

"The avoidance of the scheduling rest periods of between 18 and 30 hours especially after long flights across many time zones"

What a crock of ****e this statement is, If they actually did that then the fatigue issues could be reduced as well. I would be spending less time sitting in an aircraft between the hours of 10pm and 6am, this is the fatiguing thing for me, not the crossing of time zones, Give me more time to rest between flights, give me more time at home to rest between flights, dont give me shared rest days. Your body does not rest between the hours of 8am and 6pm the same as it does during the times between 6pm and 4am, done treat it like it does. Dont treat this job as if its an office job, or if you want to then roster the office staff the same as me, lets see how long they last. Give me at least 2 periods a month with 4 or 5 days off in a row, dont roster me up the maximum because its just a hair on the side of legal. Do you drive your car at the rev limiter all the time, no, because there will be consequences. Fly your pilots at the limiter all the time and there will be consequences. Dont factor my flying, trying to rest inside an aircraft which is noisy and quite often experiencing turbulence is not normal rest and should not be treated as such. Include my days in the sim and doing groundschool towards my limits, why is this not included??????? you think spending 8 hours in a classroom or 4 hours in the sim does not contribute to overall fatigue. Dont roster me for 60 hours of flying in a 2 week period because I have 2 weeks of leave.........

All the above just goes to prove that its definitely schedule first and by no means safety.

J

bluelearjetdriver

28th Mar 2016, 06:55

"Sorry Captain, but it's legal"

"Yes it is, but so is f*€king your cousin. It's legal, but would you do it?"

glofish

28th Mar 2016, 07:19

No, it produces similar zombies .....:D

BANANASBANANAS

28th Mar 2016, 07:51

I heard a great comment on the Fragrant Harbour forum on this matter.

It went something along the lines of 'If we continually get told that our rosters are legal, even though they are fatiguing, perhaps we should apply the same principle to the way we operate the company airplanes. Gear down at limit speed minus 1 knot on every sector, take flaps at limit speeds minus 1 knot etc. After all, it is within limits, and perfectly legal.'

It goes without saying that the professionalism of the vast majority of us would prevent this from ever happening of course. But it would not be difficult to argue that crews have more concern for the well being of company airplanes than the company has for the well being of it's crews.

linedriva

28th Mar 2016, 09:32

Bluelearjetdriver - great analogy! Love it!!

BANANASBANANAS - That sounds like a very good argument to put to the powers that be. That's economic language that they might comprehend.

CaptainChipotle

28th Mar 2016, 10:01

Chipotle
I can see that you have no clue about the region you are flying in. maybe you do not know that all airlines in Saudi Arabia have FAA rules.
I have my doubts about what you claim that you have flown( flying 6 sectors and was very normal for you) sounds like a cowboy here.especially when you get 10 hours minimum rest to start again.
I love it, I am in the management. interesting. very smart observation. well I have a short answer for you NO.
And yes, you are right about my experience. it is not 30 years, it is actually 34 airline years.

Looks like I made a new friend. Yes I'm a cowboy. Had a pairing at my previous company that was a 3 day, 18 sector trip. I did it all the time... Although I have nothing to prove to you (do the math... 6/day)

This is a middle eastern forum discussing the legal limits and fatigue of us that are operating under the GCAA. You finally clarified you're operating under FAA 117 rules in Saudi... I'm sorry but double check your English proficiency and maybe try and post on a different thread before you try and hijack this one.

My friends back in the US love the new rules. And if they are fatigued, there is no backlash AND they are pay protected. I assumed you meant you were flying in the US because your initial post mentioned "American" work rules. But, unfortunately "work rules" and our region don't go hand in hand.

34 years eh? Congratulations?

tarik123

28th Mar 2016, 10:53

Chipotle

Exactly, new friend,

I take it, calling yourself Captain, that you are actually a Captain, well I hope SO.

Middle East is not only the UAE. So better make another forum and call it UAE.

I have no clue how did you gather from me saying that I asked management to fly the roster or the planner to sit in the jump seat that I am in the management. Well, let us blame this reasoning on Fatigue.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

( In sorry but double check your English proficiency) Sounds like perfect English.

Good luck to you and your friend in the US.

Aluminium shuffler

28th Mar 2016, 12:09

Tarik, if you were doing 90 hrs and 70 sectors a month, then you can't have been crossing many time zones. Your retorts don't stack up. I can't comment on the FAA regs as I don't know them; 10hr min rest is not enough, especially if the preceding duty exceeded that, but that is a separate debate to anything related to EK.

notapilot15

28th Mar 2016, 12:20

How many EK/FZ flights get cancelled in a year because crew reached FDTLs. Even at airlines with light schedules flights do get cancelled.

These being such tightly run ships, statistically there should be more cancellations. There aren't any standby crew sitting around to cover.

Mr Angry from Purley

28th Mar 2016, 13:41

lospilotos

28th Mar 2016, 13:59

At last some common sense. Stay on DXB time, crews are whining about short layovers. Yes depending on where it is this takes a lot of determination.

18-30hrs - depends on which schedule. Day - Night agreed. Night-Day 18-30hrs is a different discussion - this allows 2 sleeps

I'm sorry, but it's impossible to stay on DXB-time, even in DXB...

BigGeordie

28th Mar 2016, 16:16

In the example above, how does going to bed at 4am DXB time help you stay on Dubai time? I'd much prefer to stay on Dubai time if possible but a lot of the time it simply isn't.

SOPS

3rd Apr 2016, 14:19

And if you go. To bed at 4.00 am DXB time, I assume you will wake up in a few hours wanting breakfast .....but the resturant is closed or serving the night menu .......

porkflyer

3rd Apr 2016, 19:09

Turkish Airlines narrow body left seat flying over 100 hours per month..loads on night flying..many premature deaths ( hearth attacks mainly). Many close calls..next big one waiting to happen.

Sqwak7700

4th Apr 2016, 01:43

Many close calls..next big one waiting to happen.

Uh, I think Turkish has had enough "big ones" already, don't you? AMS, IST, KTM? Ring a bell?

Whatever did happen to that A320 in IST by the way? That was really close to making a smoking hole in the ground. Respect to Airbus, that aircraft held together through quite a lot of damage.

:rolleyes:

ironbutt57

4th Apr 2016, 05:23

tired and fatigued are two different animals...a person may not "feel" tired, and in fact be coming off of a good night's sleep, however, the cumulative effects of fatigue may very well be present, and clouding that person's judgement when he/she is called upon to operate in challenging conditions...

Wisepilot

4th Apr 2016, 06:09

THY Katmandu 330 accident dynamics very similar to Flydubai. 6+ hours flight in the middle of the night, 2 hours holding for fog, landed out of the runway...

Mr Angry from Purley

4th Apr 2016, 17:15

SOPS be prepared bring your own to tide you by. By staying in your local TZ in some cases it allows you to start the recovery period in company time iso yours at home. Takes dedication but you'll find this is happening out there - that's why in some 18-30hr rest periods are good e.g night to day.

halas

5th Apr 2016, 02:49

In some cases you are correct.

In most cases you are not.

halas

Talparc

9th Apr 2016, 10:23

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/338525-flydubai-tragedy-journalism-russia/

Plank Cap

9th Apr 2016, 11:57

BBC iWonder - Should I pay more attention to my body clock? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/zt2msg8)

Kerosene

11th Apr 2016, 19:15

@ Paula Slier and other journalists, please check out Clive Irving's recent article on thedailybeast.com, closely related to the subject. Link and Pprune discussion here:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/577218-deteriorating-working-conditions-safety-implications-make-international-news.html

Thanks for running the story.

ps123

13th Apr 2016, 08:49

Hi all

Thank to everyone who is in touch.
Please see our latest report airing today at https://www.rt.com/news/339399-emirates-airlines-fatigue-reports/

We've done a series of reports - I have not posted them all here - if you are interested please look at : (or google Flydubia and Emirates / RT (Russia Today)

https://www.rt.com/search/?q=flydubai+

Best,
Paula

Talparc

13th Apr 2016, 10:23

Ps123 Paula,

excellent report!

Unfortunately everything you reported is true.

Keep up the good work!

nakbin330

13th Apr 2016, 13:58

Pilots asleep during turbulence and landing?? Give me a break!! How would this 'senior' know this? The pilots, or one of them anyway, has to unlock the door to let him in, therefore one of them is awake.Total bs!

Nikita81

13th Apr 2016, 14:15

It doesn't say "both pilots sleeping", he is talking about pilots in plural because it happened several times to him.

nakbin330

13th Apr 2016, 17:22

It doesn't say "both pilots sleeping", he is talking about pilots in plural because it happened several times to him.

He said both pilots were sleeping. He wasn't talking about the number of times a pilot was sleeping.

The EK rosters are obviously tough, but let's stick with the truth.

White Knight

13th Apr 2016, 17:36

Pilots asleep during turbulence

I always sleep during turbulence; easier to nod off I find...

But I've never yet woken to find the F/O asleep too! Not sure who this 'crew member' is but it ain't on my flight!

I like the sentiment of the article but as nakbin says - let's stick to the truth!

Nikita81

13th Apr 2016, 18:01

As a senior I have seen many-many occasions where we would go into the cockpit and see pilots sleep not on their breaks, but just asleep during critical periods of their flights, like during turbulence, during landing – just seen them fast asleep,” a former flight attendant for the Emirates told RT, recalling fear. “This would be on long haul flights over 10 hours, on flights to many different destinations. We have seen that on regular occurrences.”He said both pilots were sleeping.@Nakbin330

Where?

Keep in mind that this senior probably isn't a native english speaker and that anyone would emphasize in their interview the fact that both pilots were sleeping but this guy didn't do that. He just used plural because he said "many, many occasions". Let's not twist his words.

If you want to be specific or to correct these words you can always give an interview to Ms Paula.

harry the cod

13th Apr 2016, 20:22

Nikita81

As a pilot with over 30 years experience, never, ever have I seen someone 'asleep' during landing. Plenty of micro sleeps during descent for sure and once or twice fallen asleep during cruise without briefing or planning on it, but never the actual landing. How would this cabin crew member know unless he was physically in the cockpit during the actual landing anyway? And on 'many, many occasions'? I doubt it.

I'm very supportive of any individual or organisation that can highlight genuine safety concerns or deficiencies within our industry but for this campaign to be truly effective, the information needs to be factual and from credible sources. Whilst some of our cabin crew are indeed extremely knowledgeable about flying itself, aircraft and the pilots duties, the vast majority are not. When a male Egyptian CSV can seriously ask 'have you ever collided with another aircraft in the air before', you know the level of 'expertise' you're dealing with! Professional evidence is one thing, emotive ignorance is quite another.

No doubt you will provide more of your opinion to the contrary.......again.

Harry

Plank Cap

13th Apr 2016, 21:41

When will the industry wake up - why is damage control always so reactive, accepting change only after people end up dead??

It's pretty obvious that individual performance decays with the sort of rostering, flying hours and fatigue management practices that go on throughout the industry, and particularly in the Middle East. We will kill more people in this business as a result of the way it is run, particularly here - it's not a question of if, but when.

Fly Dubai may or may not be the latest fatigue-related accident, time and (maybe) the accident report will tell.

The reality is ladies and gents, that the operators and regulators have shown themselves consistently unwilling, unable and uninterested in combatting the issue. That leaves one entity (excusing the media's valiant attempts) - ourselves. For goodness sake, and for the sake of your passengers and crew, know when to say STOP. Whether it is on a monthly, annual or daily basis, we have to realise that the final protection in the system is us in the flight deck.

It's not right, it's not fair, it's morally and ethically abhorrent, but ultimately we are all gifted the opportunity to save lives in this business...... Sounds dramatic, but we sure have the ability to lose lives by getting it wrong. May God, or whoever your chosen overseer is, give us all the sense (and whatever remaining mental faculties we may have left) to use that gift wisely when the time comes.

800Skyrider

15th Apr 2016, 05:55

Hello PS123,

Pls verify your facts correctly.

As previously mentioned, how did the person on your video get access to the flight deck, if the so called sleeping pilots did not open the door for him to come in?

Sensationalism is one thing, reporting the truth is your obligation as a journalist worthy of its name.
While I agree that there are issues, let's not just make it sound a lot worse than what they are.
If you embarked in a journey to do a service to the flying community and general population, do it the right way and verify your facts with credible witnesses, cutting down on the ratings generated by sensationalism. Do yourself a favour and don't become a CNN...

All the best.

Nikita81

15th Apr 2016, 06:30

Strange choice for the first post here, skyrider. Let's not make an elephant from a mouse. That also qualifies as sensationalism, this time from your side.

Steward from the video is not a native English speaker. He probably meant on descent, not on landing. Choosing to criticise one word over everything else that's said makes you more similar to CNN journalist than to a pilot. Or a management troll.

Things are way worse than presented in the video because of the simple fact that not every wrongdoing of EK managers can be mentioned and described there.

All the best.

Nikita81

15th Apr 2016, 07:20

I agree EGGY1, but only in cases when people choose a valid argument over exaggeration and hairsplitting, and when they don't criticise an american news station in their first post in a situation where EK has problems with that part of the world.

Sorry, a person in my situation does not have a benefit of trusting people of skyrider's profile. I am dealing with a lot of management trolls. Maybe he will prove me wrong.

Buckshot

15th Apr 2016, 10:20

Flying tired: airline pilots on tough rosters battle fatigue (http://www.theage.com.au/business/aviation/flying-tired-airline-pilots-on-tough-rosters-battle-fatigue-20160413-go5fmo.html)

notapilot15

15th Apr 2016, 12:08

Sky7

15th Apr 2016, 12:33

So the latest tactic is to claim other airlines are doing the same.

Particularly EK now is saying its rosters are comparable to US Regionals.

I am also surprised to see Sir Brigade linking Air India Express Mangalore incident to fatigue, when it was concluded as CRM issue where Captain(PF) ignored more experienced (with that tabletop airport)FO's repeated warnings. FO tried to recover but was too late.

Captain took a quick nap at some point during the 3 hour flight which was/is allowed per that CAA regulations.

According to rumor mill, that accident is one of the reasons Indian carriers avoid hiring expat pilots.
The Air India Express Captain from Serbia was tired, there was snoring heard on the CVR during cruise and some parts of descend. The Captain was hesitant on making the touchdown, he wanted to avoid a go around as much as possible. Even after being high on the G/S, he pushed for a landing with AB2 (instead of the usual AB3 used in Mangalore) and landed beyond the TDZ, then came to know braking was insufficient and engaged manual braking hardly, which had burst one of the MLG, knowing the plane wouldn't stop with the remaining runway left he then initiated TO/GA (yes, against Boeing norms with reverses on) but it was too late and the wingtip clipped the LOC antenna as the aircraft overshot the runway, rolled down the hill and flamed up ... thats what the reports said

Pilot error.. fatigue? now thats the Q

SOPS

15th Apr 2016, 12:35

I was not aware US regionals were flying ULR flights across many time zones, I must have missed something.

ExDubai

15th Apr 2016, 13:04

So the latest tactic is to claim other airlines are doing the same.

Particularly EK now is saying its rosters are comparable to US Regionals.

You're joking?

notapilot15

15th Apr 2016, 15:26

Sky7, Do you have roster for AIX812 PIC handy?

Bringing Air India into fatigue discussion is an insult to EK/FZ pilots working extremely hard.

Most AI pilots file written complaint with CAA at 41 hrs. They are so efficient in gaming the system they show up couple of hours late for DEL-LHR and complain AI didn't give 22 hour minimum layover for a 9hr flight.

I think management trolls are throwing AI in the mix to discredit the whole fatigue discussion.

800Skyrider

15th Apr 2016, 18:36

Hi Nikita,

I'm not management, that I can assure you.

If english is not the first language of the f/a speaking on the video, I think it is up to the journalist to ensure that the message that comes across is correct, not just taking it at face value.
I don't know if you work for the carrier in question,but if you do, you know we are not sleeping during landing. I've been here long enough and haven't that happen to me yet.
Perhaps I'm in for a surprise on my next flight!!

As for my comment on reporting the truth, I more often than not, find that the great majority of reporting about aviation tends to exagerate on the sensational side.
As for the comment about the american news channel I mentioned, just because it is an american news network, doesn't make it any better or worse than the one that is doing this investigation.

All I'm saying is that what is posted for the world to see should be less sensational and rating driven.

BTW, not trying to undermine the US networks. I carry the blue passport.
It is my first post, but been on PP for years. Only my 2 cents.

All the best.

Nikita81

15th Apr 2016, 19:35

I guess that additional question from the journalist would have resolved this confusion, but it's too late now.

Regarding my two cents, I really don't think that it is sensationalism, just a misunderstanding due to language barrier. Why? Because I also participated in one of the RT articles in the "pilot fatigue" series. I gave many answers to many questions. This time they chose ones which concern pilots (they wanted to know my opinion on why EK pilots say they live in a golden cage). And few others (wordpress and my warning) just to paint the picture.
They really didn't mess up my answers and I am satisfied with my participation. I have to admit that I don't like talking to journalists precisely because they tend to exaggerate things and always look for THE story, but this time they were very professional. Maybe because the truth is already sensational enough.

All the best to you too, 800Sr.

notapilot15

15th Apr 2016, 19:46

Aiza, News reports I read suggest Captain slept 110 minutes before the event. They also suggest FO's voice can be heard along with Captain's snoring. Unless you have CAA final report suggests PF(Captain) slept during descent/landing it is probably media mix up.

I doubt any AI Pilot puts as many hours as EK/FZ, doesn't mean they won't complain, don't want to repeat union dog jokes.

Sky7

16th Apr 2016, 13:02

No I do not have an IX or AI roster ...

The IX Captain had to shuttle on another Air India from Mumbai to Mangalore the previous night, and crew had sufficient rest for their layover in Dubai before starting the night flight back from DXB. There is nothing exactly about fatigue in the report but pilot error and wrong judgement.

The Captain had a previous report on him about a hard landing in Trivandrum a flight he was in charge of from Muscat the very same year

Nikita81

16th Apr 2016, 14:03

Flying tired: airline pilots on tough rosters battle fatigue (http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/flying-tired-airline-pilots-on-tough-rosters-battle-fatigue-20160413-go5fmo.html)

notapilot15

16th Apr 2016, 15:09

Sky7

I am able to access the AIX812(DXB-IXE) final report.

Captain had 54 hrs local rest at IXE prior to AIX 811 (IXE-DXB)
FO had 82 hrs of local rest at IXE prior to AIX 811 (IXE-DXB)

Captain was on 14 day time off until May 18, 2010. He reached IXE on May 19, 2010 for local rest. May 21, 2010 night AIX 811 was his first flight.

Sure investigators looked into fatigue issue because even though roster had enough rest, Captain slept on the that flight until 21 minutes before landing and sleep inertia could be one reasons.

Even though the term fatigue is used loosely, it was not management/roster induced fatigue.

So bringing AIX812, US regionals or EU LCCs in to this discussion is just to throw it off track.

Dubai2004

16th Apr 2016, 16:49

That video is absolute bs! Thanks for the good laugh.

bafanguy

16th Apr 2016, 21:00

If you'll indulge a couple of questions from a casual observer, now that this media "investigation" has perhaps made John Q. Public aware of the fatigue issue in the ME, what can logically be expected to happen as a result ?

None of this information is news to airlines or their government overseers (they largely appear to have engineered it). If they intended to do anything about the issue, they'd have done it by now.

So now it's up to John Q. ? What is he expected to do that materially betters the situation ?

glofish

17th Apr 2016, 02:42

So now it's up to John Q. ? What is he expected to do that materially betters the situation ?

bafanguy

Thanks for your contribution, your question asked is extremely important! Your displayed awareness is the best start.

It's always up to John Q. He is purchasing the ticket that makes the airline's profit and pays my salary. But he is not the one that has to act directly. He voted in a representative, who appointed a regulator, to do this for him.

What we expect of John Q. though, is to realise that his representative is not doing his job, is not acting as promised, because he covers the interest of the greedy industry and not the safety of his voters. So think hard the next time you vote.
What we expect of John Q., is to realise that there are regions where the dictator is the industry, the self appointed representative and the regulator all in one. So think hard the next time you buy a ticket.

We all know that "cheap" and "profit" is sexy. But it brought us foul horse-meat in lasagne, plastic in marsbars and fatigued pilots, all of this threatening our wellbeing.

notapilot15

17th Apr 2016, 03:17

bafanguy

99.999% passengers care only about inside cabin (food/IFE, how young and good looking are FAs). No one cares about pilot fatigue.

In fact, an airline can gain reputation by forcing a fatigued crew fly than cancelling a flight due to FDTL limitations.

This investigation is already on wrong track,
RT + 90 Pilots say fatigue is an issue at EK/FZ.
Unionized airline workers jump on the fatigue bandwagon.
EK claims no fault because every other airline union saying the same.
Laziest union bunch will bargain for even less work
EK/FZ pilots will continue to work at same level or even more.

Nikita81

17th Apr 2016, 04:31

What would be the right track, then?

High 6

17th Apr 2016, 07:01

One possible solution would be by getting the regulators to change the goal posts. The current FTL rules are truly outdated and designed for the B707, DC8 era when aircraft range was limited and the airline commercial environment was not so competitive. Whilst terrain avoidance, collision avoidance, air to ground comms, navigation etc... have developed significantly since those glory days, the FTL rules have stayed much the same.

In addition to this, it seem the regulators whether GCAA, CAA, FAA EASA etc... do not really scrutinise or challenge the operators when they apply for variations to this original scheme to make it fit longer flight times, more time zones etc... The old rules obviously don't fit, so rewrite the whole book instead of adding this patchwork fixes, take into account all this data we have collected, and then make the companies adhere.

If the FTL scheme was a terminal designed for B707/DC8, it would have been torn down years ago to cater for the B777/A380/A340.

ruserious

17th Apr 2016, 07:28

It's not about the rules, when everyone go's to the same Majlis, everything is negotiable and optimizable!

framer

17th Apr 2016, 07:54

It is about the rules. Airlines will always try to maximise efficiency right up to the rules. Unless the rules shift, nothing will change.
The buck stops with the rules.

glofish

17th Apr 2016, 08:08

Unfortunately the buck makes the rules!

nakbin330

17th Apr 2016, 10:24

Unfortunately the buck makes the rules!

Agree absolutely Glo.

Nikita81

17th Apr 2016, 11:19

One possible solution would be by getting the regulators to change the goal posts.

Sure, but how to get them to change the rules in circumstances where buck makes the rules?

bafanguy

17th Apr 2016, 12:05

glofish et al,

Just a bit against my better judgement, I'll add one additional thought...OK, maybe a few additional thoughts.

In the US, we, as airline pilots represented by a union, have seen this idea of appealing to the public (expecting positive, tangible results) put forth many times...and it's been done many times.

From watching this for ~ 4 decades, I've come to this conclusion: the public doesn't give so much as a rat's secondary orifice about airline pilots and their issues...none of their issues! You can talk safety if you wish but they don't believe for one nanosecond that THEY will be personally, individually affected by something like fatigued pilots...they just don't believe it. I'll avoid going off into the weeds postulating about why that is.

[I walked the picket line with the EAL pilots as they circled the drain...a VERY educating experience. We were invisible to John Q.]

The only thing the public are even LESS motivated about is appealing to their elected representatives...on behalf of airline pilots.

And since elected officials are arguably complicit in the effects of their appointees' actions (I suppose that point could be debated), they're unlikely very motivated to admit even being at secondhand fault. And if they should rarely, actually pretend to do something to fix the situation, it's likely to be little more than cosmetic...or maybe even make it worse.

Just some thoughts...that's all. I'M ON YOUR SIDE IN THIS. Good luck...your options are limited.

notapilot15

17th Apr 2016, 12:56

it seem the regulators whether GCAA, CAA, FAA EASA etc... do not really scrutinise or challenge the operators when they apply for variations to this original scheme to make it fit longer flight times,

Regulators (not GCAA) do take action when there are enough complaints. Consider recent FAA investigation and conclusion that UA has system wide issue with its schedule. How did FAA arrive at the conclusion, union complained to FAA about every minor discretionary flight.

AI's Australia route is another well know example where regulator/airline gave in to union complaints. AI had a tag in Australia which required two landings in 11-12 hrs. Over 7-8 months AI operated this tag, union crew lodged 185 complaints. DGCA/AI couldn't take any more and dropped the tag.

And of course AF unions need no introduction.

Guess who uses news like these for their own benefit, EK.

jimmyg

17th Apr 2016, 13:01

Change can be applied through public sentiment only when it begins to effect the bottom line.

Unfortunately real change in this industry seems to happens when the " Tombstone Factor" has been applied.

This process is slowed further in the Middle East because the regulators and owners both have there hands on the controls.

Nikita81

17th Apr 2016, 15:10

Change can be applied through public sentiment only when it begins to effect the bottom line.Agreed. The only way in the information and media age where nobody gives a flying **** about anything until it appears in the news with loss of lives. Sometimes, not even then.

I wanted to comment FZ981 couple of times here and wanted to write a blog about it, but something prevents me from it. It's beyond my capabilities to write about it without too much emotion involved. And I think it would be offensive towards the dead and their families. Passengers and crew are dead. And it was a very violent death. No words can change that fact for the families and the dead. The fact that it could have been prevented leaves me without any comment. The fact that I was not shocked when I heard the news - as well.

I've heard that EK lawyers call me "the Serbian bitch". I was always amazed with this fact. I am the bitch and they are the ones who (maybe) killed 62 people? To which extent this management madness can go?

I guess I wasn't being a bitch enough. I could have gone to journalists earlier (I had many opportunities), but I believed that someone from above will get the word eventually. I even got an autopsy report for one deceased pilot, confirming that EK doesn't take care for the health of its pilots, and I've never published it nor will I (because my source changed their mind and I have to respect that). I've got the proves that EK AS managers have a prostitution business at the airport and I've never published it. And who knows which famous VIP names used the services of this business. I bet media would love to write about it.

I guess nobody from above cares. And I guess that I should have been a bigger bitch. Too late now for 62 people who dissolved into burning pieces.

Nikita81

17th Apr 2016, 15:27

I just told you that I don't feel I am in the position to write about it...

FZ981 Pilots' tiring rosters are the fact I could write about, at least.

Nevertheless, I could have used it to attract more attention to the fatigue problem in the same way RT does it. But I still feel like not doing it. People are dead. Full stop.

harry the cod

17th Apr 2016, 18:34

Nikita81

Even though our swords have crossed several times on these forums, there have been occasions when I've empathised with the shoddy treatment you received by EK and the situation you found yourself in after being dismissed.

However, post 126 is one too far. While your anger and frustration towards your former employer is still evident, your arguments are bordering on ridiculous. It was a FlyDubai plane that crashed, NOT an Emirates plane. How, therefore, you can even begin to accuse EK lawyers of (maybe) having any role in the loss of FZ981 is beyond me. Don't hide behind the brackets or come back with some pitiful excuse that English is not your mother tongue. When you first began posting here, many supported your right to free speech. That speech has become a tirade of emotive and often hardly believable stories concocted to support your own belief that your dismissal was entirely due to other people and not in any way down to your own behaviour.

You may still have those supporters, however, I am not one of them. You are just about to join my ignore list. Congratulations.

Harry

notapilot15

17th Apr 2016, 18:37

I think the management strategy from get go is to make the crime so over the top, no one will dare to tell and no one will believe.

But human tendency is to share their experience even if no one believes.

Nikita81

17th Apr 2016, 19:18

Harry,

Are you a native English speaker? If you are, then you lack intelligence. Where did you see that I have directly accused EK lawyers of anything let alone of being involved in FZ981 crash? I am talking about everyone who defend EK's politics, including the ones who call me a bitch instead of dealing with international legal frames of rostering. And that potential "guilt" is indirect, ofc.

You are very manipulative. I've noticed that before. You twist other people's words and you actually use emotion to manipulate. But don't try it on me. Doesn't work. I guess it is an achievement to be ignored by your slimy type of personality. Go ahead. I am looking forward to it. Thanks for congratulations, carry on.

Or develop some intelligence and read my post again. Especially the sentence which comes after the percieved "accusation".

CaptainChipotle

17th Apr 2016, 22:26

Nikita,

I'm usually on your side as well, but I agree with Harry here. He's right. It was Fly Dubai and not EK that crashed. Who cares what EK lawyers called you?

If you are so upset, I dare you to post all the information you have claimed to have held back regarding autopsies and prostitution. Who wouldn't be interested?

I've read most of your posts and you are very intelligent. Trust me, I'm highly reserved to call you out here, BUT to claim Harry needs to develop some intelligence is ridiculous. I am a native english speaker, and you indirectly accused EK lawyers of causing that crash. It sounds like your emotions are getting the best of you.

We ALL mourn for the loss of our colleagues, and I refuse to comment until the official report comes out.

Harry has many years experience as a Captain and you worked on the ground. This is a pilots forum. Back off of my fellow aviators.

Respectfully,
CC

fatbus

17th Apr 2016, 22:28

Harry , totally agree. Unfortunately she went on my ignore list a week ago .

Nikita81

17th Apr 2016, 23:24

So, you claim that Fly Dubai and Emirates do not have the same owner, same practices and same type of managers?

I am not quilty if you don't understand what am I saying. The picture is clear: EK (and FZ) managers (and I consider lawyers as part of the managing group) rather think of some stupid things and some people who are irrelevant for their business (like I am) than things that really matter and which can cause a crash.

I wrote this article a long time ago: https://donotflyemirates.wordpress.com/2015/02/05/how-safe-is-it-to-fly-with-emirates-testimony-of-one-cabin-crew/

And I helped Rory Jones from WSJ to write his article on pilots' life in Dubai. And all that lawyers and managers think is what a bitch I am instead of READING the articles and thinking on human lives? Paints the picture well, doesn't it?

Yes, you can bet I am under strong influence of emotions. I've admitted that, haven't I? I also told you that I have avoided to write about the crash because I can't do it without showing my anger. I am angry because the pilot of the crashed airplane was on the very tiring roster. I am angry because, according to all the information, there is no difference between EK and FlyDubai (let's be real here). I am angry because everything we did and said online didn't make any difference and people still violently lost their lives. And whatever the real reason for the crash is, that pilot still had tough roster and he complained on being fatigued, according to his friends.

And when you find out what's wrong with having and showing emotions, let me know. Until then, news flash for you CaptainChipotle: emotions and intellect are not separate things and they can function together very well if you know how to use them in a constructive and mature way. They are just two sides of the same coin. If I wasn't emotional, I would never do what I did after being fired.

Yes, I didn't write about some of the most terrible things I found out about EK, because I don't have ill intentions. My goal was to improve working conditions not to ruin EK's image. Also, although you might think that I am not afraid, sometimes I am. Therefore, I choose the stories for my blog carefully. Also, I always warn people who send me sensitive data on possible consequences (especially if they still live in Dubai). Sometimes they are still willing to publish their story, but more often they change their mind. And I don't blame them.

Why should Harry develop some intelligence? Because he is harshly judging and offending instead of reading. He is doing the same thing EK lawyers and managers do. READ Harry. If you knew how to read me, you would see that in my post I am wondering if I could do or publish something to change the sad developments in the future. For sure they are going to change your rosters now. At least to some extent. They don't need another crash with a pilot who has the roster similar to the roster of FZ981 pilot. But now I think that one huge scandal which excludes loss of lives could have done the job. And I am wondering if I or my blog could have had at least some small role in it. Instead, I always refrained myself of making huge scandals and I am not sure whether it was because I was afraid to do it, or I find it tasteless or because I am telling everyone that I don't have ill intentions. Get it now?

I've always respected the fact that you are the pilots and I am not. And I do feel like a guest here. I would never dare to comment possible reasons of the crash but I do comment pilot's roster and his statements before the crash. Maybe different roster would have had a different outcome. We will never know, but the very possibility makes me angry and emotional. So, Harry, never interfere in someone's confession. Or at least learn to recognize one. Otherwise, you will be punched.

Fatbus, I never knew you existed before. Now I know why. Thank you for ignoring me. When will you learn that I don't need anyone's support? I am alone in this from the very beginning. Your support brings me emotional satisfaction but I can really survive without it. As far as I am concerned, you can all ignore me.

Respectfully,
D.

Edit: just one correction - I don't need anyone's support except from the people close to me. And I have it.

ClassCbird

18th Apr 2016, 06:56

May I make a suggestion? It's been made before but i want to reiterate.
No one can reason with Niki81. I suggest ignoring her posts totally. She is doing no good to this forum and i would go as far to say that she is undermining the issue of PILOT fatigue.

Nikita81

18th Apr 2016, 07:10

So, what did you do to contribute to resolving the issue, ClassCbird?

I expect these kind of reactions. Especially from people doing nothing except complaining. On some forum. Online. Threatening with ignoring members as their only way to resolve problems. Hoping to benefit from someone else's efforts and risks. Wake up. I am not your problem. You have much bigger problems. Within yourselves primarily.

Oblaaspop

18th Apr 2016, 08:11

Hey Nikita, you may be a member of this forum but you are not a member of the PILOT community and therefore are most certainly not in ANY way qualified to comment on matters of pilot fatigue!

You appear to be well qualified in other areas, such as HR etc, so how would you feel if I went on an HR forum and stuck my oar in by telling you that HR people are a waste of oxygen dedicated to making other employees lives as miserable as possible (at least that would brighten up the dullest forum in existence- which is why you're probably plaguing ours).

And before you spout some childish vitriol back about my post not contributing in a positive way, you are quite correct, but unlike you at least I HAVE actually experienced pilot fatigue!

Now to paraphrase ClassCbird and many others.... Run along little girl, time to bugger off for good��

Nikita81

18th Apr 2016, 08:35

Actually, any kind of employees' fatigue and rostering problems are in the scope of HR management and Security Management. I am competent enough to write about it. I am not competent to comment on technical components of the crash therefore I am not commenting that part. It's your area.

I agree with you regarding your stand on HR management. Pure waste if oxygen and money.

Stop defending yourselves, I am not attacking you. I was writing about my experiences, and if you feel irritated it's has nothing to do with me. Online chat and forum buddies and members are just your mirror. Internet is constructed that way.

This little girl never runs away. I guess you are left only with the choice to call me a bitch, and your mirror will be complete.

Or stop attacking me when I write about my own experiences.

jimmyg

18th Apr 2016, 09:35

I must applaud those that stand up and yell " no more jello Mom " !

Unfortunately if more people took a stance the race to the bottom of the toilet in this and other industries may not have been so rapid.

Fear intimidation and repression of opinions is the cornerstone in the M.E playbook.

Let's try not to succumb to our keepers tactics.

pacbro

18th Apr 2016, 10:41

"And I guess that I should have been a bigger bitch."

You can relax now, you already are the bigger bitch! And before you try to attack me, don't worry, I'm not an emirates lawyer nor am I an EK pilot so I don't give a flying f&@$ what you say. But I do want to know what qualifies you to call yourself intelligent, whilst referring to others as being of lesser intelligence than what you profess yourself to be? You come across as someone who's trying her hardest to sound anything remotely clever. From your posts, there is such a thing as 'verbal diarrhea'. I suggest you add it to your google list. It's a real condition, and you should see someone about it.

Sincerely

Nikita81

18th Apr 2016, 11:37

Never said I was intelligent. CaptainChipotle said that. :) My verbal diarrhea has to do something with the topic at least. You used your fifth post on this forum for nothing. You would do better for yourself and the world if you have used it to tell your manager what you really think about your roster.

[deleted]

Now you can call me the biggest bitch ever. I deserve it. :)

fliion

18th Apr 2016, 11:58

Nikita. -

This hooker ring by airport services managers - is it after eGATE - if so do you have a phone number?

(Much prefer a massage table to overcrowded Biz lounge)

😌

thanks

Nikita81

18th Apr 2016, 12:01

It goes like this: you give me your phone number and I pass it to the manager who holds the business. He will call you. Or you can write your name here, I will put you on the list. :)

Trader

18th Apr 2016, 12:03

While I may or may not agree with Nikita or parts of her argument I find the 'back and forth' rather pitiful.

To make personal attacks is nothing more than a way to deflect from the conversation at hand. IT is the lowest form of argument/debate. That is represented well by the posters that have attacked her but never write on this forum (5 posts etc). Harry and the others who have debated her for a long time--keep it up. That's what the forum and what a discussion is for.

But please stop attacking her and debate the argument, not the person.

Nikita81

18th Apr 2016, 12:06

Thank you, Trader. You are a real gentleman. I can handle a real, even harsh discussion. This has just lost every meaning and it's somehow sad...

notapilot15

18th Apr 2016, 13:09

Nikita,

It is a well known reputation management technique to have dozens (if not hundreds) of accounts(with varying profiles) on all forums to defend paid clients. Individuals with opposite views will be labeled as trolls and a cook session will be performed.

It either wares-out the individual(gives up) or moderators(close the thread and/or ban the individual).

Either way pros (and their paid customers) win. Individual never wins.

Just my 2 cents.

Nikita81

18th Apr 2016, 13:56

Individual never wins.We can discuss this, but my point is beyond this forum at this time: I feel like sh*t after this plane crash. Such a stroke of reality. Could have been my friend from Russia. Or my cabin crew friend. Or you. I just wanted to share this emotion with you. We talked about it. Managers were aware of it. And it still happened.

Will people ever learn that their individual happiness depends on happiness of many? It's a network and a circle of (positive and negative) energy. If you want to be happy you have to make other people happy. Otherwise, you will find yourself being a manager in some huge, ****ty company, making a lot of money, having power over people and everything you ever wanted, but you will still be miserable (and that will reflect on your employees and you will think in "bitch" terms instead of doing your job) and you will not know why. That's why an individual has to win sometimes. And that is why every each one of us should be that individual.

I rest my case on this topic and apologize to everyone who found my words offensive.

D.

Fromagio

18th Apr 2016, 14:05

Notapilot15, I was starting to wonder the same thing, nikita81 always seems to deflect attention away from the original subject and makes it all about her, something doesn't seem right here. Either nikita81 is damaged goods (mental) or is some sort of management pleasing troll. The thread is about pilot fatigue...

notapilot15

18th Apr 2016, 18:47

Nikita, Your points and emotions are very valid, but you have to keep in mind you may be dealing with someone (working for a PR firm) whose job is to make sure such discussions doesn't exist/survive.

Some one posted few days back "Silence can be bought".

ClassCbird

18th Apr 2016, 21:26

Any chance of getting back to the topic of PILOT FATIGUE???!!!!

halas

19th Apr 2016, 09:26

The devil is in the rules.

One must be acclimatised prior to operating a ULR flight.
Acclimatised = three local nights.
One remains acclimatised as long as you don't stray outside two hours difference of your current time zone.

Not so long ago l was acclimatised in the first week of the month.
I then operated two back-of-the-clock turns followed by one day off.
Then l was on ULR standby from midnight.
Then operated ULR (16:50) departing 2am.

Crewing agreed when l complained that this rostering is bullsh!t. "But it's legal Captain."

When l got back to DXB, l was stuffed.
Then had three weeks sick to get over it. Thats another story.

So they can roster this sh!t, but if you breach the acclimatised ruling following leave you get toasted (from what l hear)?

halas

SOPS

19th Apr 2016, 09:46

I could never figure out why you did not have to be acclimatised before operating the ULR flight back to Dubai.

If you need three local night before going outbound, why not three local nights before coming inbound?

nakbin330

19th Apr 2016, 11:56

altocu

19th Apr 2016, 12:06

Because it's not convenient for the Company? ;)

TOGA!

19th Apr 2016, 12:40

where are the rules by which UAE airlines follow, written? Name, Date, version

the reason I ask, is what I have seen written down, in what I think is official, does not match what is in OMA.

Just asking for clarification.....if it could possibly be clear.

Schnowzer

19th Apr 2016, 14:58

All the regs are at:

https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/epublication/pages/cars.aspx

The limit on flight hours is as follows (Issue 4, Rev 1 at 1 Jan 16)

CAR‐OPS 1.1125 Absolute Limits on Flying Time and Duty Period

a. No person shall act as an operating crew member of the flight crew of an aircraft if at the beginning of the flight the aggregate of all his previous flight times;

(1) during the period of 28 (twenty eight) consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 (one hundred) block hours: or

(2) during the period of 12 (twelve months) expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900 (nine hundred) block hours:

b. The maximum cumulative duty hours for Flight crew of an aeroplane shall not exceed;

(1) 55 hours in any 7 consecutive days, but may be increased to 60 hours, when rostered duty covering a series of duty periods, once commenced, is subject to unforeseen delays.

(2) 95 hours in any any 14 consecutive days; and

(3) 190 hours in any any 28 consecutive days.

kingpost

19th Apr 2016, 17:41

Those are not flight hours, those are BLOCK HOURS!!!

Capn Rex Havoc

19th Apr 2016, 19:35

So it GCAA regs clearly say BLOCK hours not Stick hours, the portal lists only the block hour total.

So, does this mean we are in breach of the regs. (I have done over 990 hrs BLOCK) in the last 12 calendar months.

Capn Rex Havoc

19th Apr 2016, 19:44

Ok so I just found this in the OMA 7-20

Note:
The accumulated flight time for any consecutive 12 month period must not exceed 900 hours at midnight local time of the last day of the last calendar month of the 12 month period.
Flying hours credited to augmenting crew members for the purposes of calculating the absolute limits on flying hours (for both 100 hours in 28 days and the 900 hours for any consecutive 12 month period) will be based on the actual time in an operating seat, as recorded by the Voyage Report.

So my question is? How can the EK regs be more relaxed then than the GCAA regs?

Deep and fast

19th Apr 2016, 23:32

Get RT to ask that one.

fatbus

20th Apr 2016, 08:01

If you look at the definitions they refer to Block hours and flight time as the same (Flight time/ block hours ) but i still say they are bending it their favour

AllDaysAreSchoolDays

20th Apr 2016, 09:36

In the past when Fleet have been questioned about discrepancies between our FTL and CAR OPS, the answer was always; 'The GCAA authorise and stamp our Manuals including the OMA therefore it is GCAA approved'

I would love to hear that answer at in a Western Court of Law.

However, looking at the GCAA website, they have written;

"CAR–OPS 1.1120 Standard provisions applicable to a scheme

(a) Subject to the maxima and minima specified in this subpart, it is incumbent on the operator to
establish maximum FDPs and minimum rest periods appropriate to the nature of flight
operations undertaken.

(b) An operator of an aircraft shall have a scheme for the regulation of flight and duty times of
crews. The scheme shall be approved by the Authority and be included in the Operations Manual
for the benefit of all crew members and the staff concerned with the preparation and day to day
management of rostering and scheduling.

(c) Although operators must plan their schemes in accordance with the requirements, it is
recognised that the standard provisions will not necessarily satisfy every type of operation. In
these circumstances operators may apply for FTL Variation to the standard provisions at least 30
days, or as otherwise agreed, before the date of the intended operation.. Consideration will only
be given where an operator can show that any proposal will ensure a better or equivalent level
of protection against fatigue than the basic requirements.

(d) Approval of FTL Variation by GCAA:
The GCAA may grant variations to the FTL requirements contained in this Subpart provided the
operator demonstrates to the GCAA, on the basis of a risk assessment, that an equivalent level of
safety is ensured. GCAA may impose additional requirements prior to the approval of the variations
to the prescriptive scheme.. A validation flight may be conducted by the GCAA before or after the
issuance of each route FTL variation scheme.
Note: Any existing approved Flight Time Variation to the prescriptive scheme shall remain in force until the
time a re‐assessment is required. Such re‐assessment shall be conducted considering the AMC or GM
to 1.1120(d)."

You will note we have 3 Variations, the third relating to ULR flights. This Variation basically negates the whole FTL chapter and its requirements.

So long as the GCAA rubber stamp the OMA the Chapter 7 is binding.

Not so long ago an amendment removed the requirement of inclusion of 30minutes post flight duties for Flight Crew. It was still there for the Cabin Crew. Presumably a simple typo. But Crewing and VPNC took advantage straight away, counting the following day as a day off so long as you were on Chocks by 2359. You will still see the evidence of this in some of our schedules finishing at 2359. The OMA was later corrected and the paragraph returned.

I personally have very little faith in the Regulators oversight of our FTL and many other important safety related policies. This is a case where I think the tail often wags the dog!

I think for the most part Emirates and possibly Etihad tell the GCAA how things will be, not the other way around.