Comments on fatique

[Talparc]

Just thought as fatique is now a bigger issue in the media to open a new thread.

Any comments on fatique and the FRSM ?

Let me start with my own experience about 3 years ago on the mini bus:

Roster was published with several combined duties all night turns to the subcontinent.
On questioning the DCPA on how to manage this roster without getting fatique
his answer was that this rostering practice is scientifically profen to be good for pilots. On asking who did the study no answer was given.
I then did a personal investigation and found after the MEL accident a guy called
Martin Roskind who was in charge of telling the Australian CAA that fatique was not an issue. I found this guy and gave him my roster and guess he told me that he is not related to our airline any more and that he is no longer involved.
I flew the roster as long as I could but then called in sick fatique.Filled the form and a few days later got a warning letter from DCPA stating that I was planning of being fatique.
Pathetic!

[ruserious]

What happens is a company employs an expert to assess their FRMS and rostering practices, who comes in and say's "you got to be kidding, this is not clever" (obviously couched in much more politically correct terminology). The company than for the next dozen years or so states, well we got Dr Sleepexpert in who is a world authority on fatigue to look at our roster system and he see's no problems, in fact he thinks we are at the cutting edge of rostering best practice. Also we have this shiny FRMS that ticks all the right regulatory boxes, so vee haff a full scientic model to show you are not even remotely fatigued and are a lazy pilot, here, take a warning letter and go and cower in the corner.

[level_change]

Ryanair always said their rosters are NASA approved . no kidding

[Aluminium shuffler]

And NASA subsequently wrote a rebuttal. Curiously, the name attached to the "NASA approval" by RYR was... Rosekind. Sounds like a bit of a whore to me.

[tomuchwork]

Interesting articles, but not really something new to aviation in general. Even in Europe there are more then enough "black Sheep" around that push their pilots to the limit. Some European Authorities are "easier" on violations then others(hell not, I will not call names now). Pilots accept that, report it, go on, change the company if not improving at all. Sometimes, if the airline pushed to far, the authority steps in, might even close the place down.

What really amuses me is that everyone who decides to go down to the ME is well aware that the Aviation Authority is never independent.
Human rights do not exist. Work laws do not exist, if they exist they are subject to change as the person in charge desires.

I think we all agree that pilots choosing(and considering) going down there (should) know that.
Yes, they change your roster, I had once 23 changes in one month with QR, each working day one. Of course you are exhausted. But hoping that they will change their system as long as they can hire tons of pilots, why would they? Young pilots nowadays pay to fly 500 hours on an airliner just to get that job. And of course this people are then #1 candidates to go down there as well.

I am afraid you will not change the ME, or at least it will take some other 40 years to change their mind.

What happens now in EK and FlyDubai happened before in other airlines down there as well. It is a sideeffect of uncontrolled growth and high turnaround of pilots.

European and other authorities(or VC ^^) have not really anything in hand to go against the GCAA. If they discover serious misconduct within the airline they might put EK or FlyDubai on the Blacklist preventing them to operate into the EU. But we know that this is never going to happen.

The point is - most went there for the money, did not like their current employer anymore or simple because they needed a job.
If it is that bad down there then leave them, at the moment enough other airlines look for Airbus/Boeing Widebody pilots. The problem is - they might not be better then what you have down there. Workwise. Let's not talk about money.

But honestly, hoping that someone "makes" them to become nice again, I don't think that will work out.

[Twiglet1]

Lot of Pilots (perhaps Middle East Airlines excluded) get a little confused with the F word and the S word = sleepiness and the need to sleep. Fatigue is long term, Sleepiness is i'm banjaxed on this run of flying.
One of the biggest issues for Pilots is that airlines are now using scheduling systems with fatigue models attached to them. They check the roster and if it's below the "limit" whatever that is = the roster is legal. One such system is the Boeing Alertness Model for example. The main issue is these systems don't have data. The system should be set up for the specific airline not Airline X. Crews should be completing diary and wearing motion watches so the data is validated.
A lot more work needs doing we can only hope some good will come out of tragedy

[Airmann]

Does the model take into account your 6 month old baby or your loud neighbors?

The solution is easy. Pay a much lower basic salary but pay a **** load in flight pay and leave it up to the pilots to decide if they are safe to fly. And allow pilots to call in sick or fatigued whenever they please, with no penalties or requirements for evidence.

The problem right now is that the basic pay + 60/70 hours vs 90 hours is not enough of a difference for guys to really care about the extra 20/30 hours vs. the extra time off. Its called opportunity cost, how much do you value your free time vs. extra flight pay? Once you've bagged around 70 hours the extra 20 isn't worth the flight pay over the rest, the rest if more important. A really high flight pay would make guys think hard if they are fatigued, but at the same time would mean that guys who really do need the rest would actually call in fatigued or tired or whatever.

Added to this would be serious consequences for guys who show up for work in an unacceptable state for the pay. Once the culture of knowing when to call fatigued is understood the company will be confident that their pilots are not kidding around when they call in fatigued or tired, because not flying will become a lot more expensive for the pilots. At the same time with the policy of taking a guy at his word there's no excuse if a guy shows up in a condition unfit to fly an aeroplane, penalties should be harsh and rightly so.

It would work. The work force will police itself and the company can throw away their fatigue reporting system. After a while the company will easily be able to identify how many hours its pilots are willing to fly, and see trends in pilots reporting fatigued. Rosters can be adjusted accordingly.

[Talparc]

Airman:

Thanks a lot for the excellent post!

This kind of system would definitely help a lot!

[Talparc]

Newest RT Report:

https://www.rt.com/news/336903-flydubai-pilot-fatigue-report/

[Trader]

Airmann- with all due respect that is absolutely absurd!You would have pilots flying fatigued because they need the money. This is where regulation is needed - both sides pilot and airlines have conflicts of interest.

[Airmann]

Well, as I said, the company would monitor the pilots and ensure that they were not flying fatigued.

Anyway, my airline pays overtime after we hit x hours in a one year period so rostering is put under pressure to ensure we don't exceed those hours unless absolutely necessary. Recruitment and manpower also ensure that we are staffed to ensure that overtime is not common.

I also agree it's not necessarily hours much you fly but also the manner in which they schedule you. Constant changes between day and night flights is a killer. Short haul pilots need a routine. X days flying followed by X off, something that can be relied on.

[halas]

I remember when the A345 started doing ULR. My neighbours were bragging of doing 120+ hours a month, through open time, and how much money they were making.
I questioned then how sustainable it was.
But with a fixed grin and glassy eyes staring into the distance right through me.....But l'm making so much money!

halas

[fatbus]

Pilots will sell their soul for cash!

[Shaky Hands]

Airmann
What a load of tosh, think you might be taking the p.
Your idea is designed to have pilots flying when they shouldn't be.

[glofish]

Pilots will sell their soul for cash!

I agree with that. But it has some potential for a win win situation.
Why not introduce a bid for 75 / 85 / 95 / 105 hours?
Logically enough they'd have to up the overtime pay which should set in at 80h.
The individual can then decide if he needs a slow month or if he wants to make money.

I bet that the manning problem will ease just as the fatigue issue will.

[Airmann]

Airmann
What a load of tosh, think you might be taking the p.
Your idea is designed to have pilots flying when they shouldn't be.

How would pilots fly when they shouldn't. The current system had pilots flying when they shouldn't be! It's already happening!

I don't think that pilots are THAT greedy for cash. I think that eventually when it's difficult to even get out of bed or to keep your eyes open while driving to work you will call in fatigued. If you as a pilot are not responsible enough to do that then you are not responsible enough to fly a plane with passengers on board. In which case there's a much bigger problem at hand. It's just that in the system I propose guys wouldn't call in for trivial reasons. Which is the fear airlines have right now, which is the reason things work the way they do.

As for guys flying for money, just make sure that pilots are being monitored for fatigue and make sure that there are stern penalties if you show up for work just for the money, when you should be recovering.

The current system has pilots afraid to call fatigued or even sick because they fear that the company won't believe them and point fingers back at them. So they end up flying when they are not 100%. The system I propose will switch it around so guys are afraid to NOT call in fatigued. Once you instil the culture into the company there are checks and balances to ensure it works.

Firstly, monitoring for fatigue and promoting a culture where showing up for work seriously fatigued is considered irresponsible and in many ways disgraceful (as fatigued pilots add an incredible burden on the guy they are flying with, and are a threat to themselves and to their passengers) this will ensure pilots call in fatigued or sick when they actually are. Secondly management will be content in knowing that due to the high flight pay guys will not call in fatigued unless absolutely necessary because there's too much to lose, keeping that side happy. And lastly rostering and manpower will be forced to ensure that rosters are such that the potential for fatigue is minimized through proper manpower levels as too many guys calling in fatigued is a serious strain on the system. This could easily be worked out between scheduling and HR.

Other things could be added to the system of course but that's the idea. Now no one can blame the company for a fatigued pilot. And pilots have no one to blame but themselves. Especially if scheduling gets things right, which is obviously part of a properly functioning system.

[disconnected]

As for guys flying for money, just make sure that pilots are being monitored for fatigue and make sure that there are stern penalties if you show up for work just for the money, when you should be recovering.

And how well has that worked so far?

Sensible limits are all that will work. Current FTL's are illogical and dangerous. Fix them and aviation will be safe. Link them to money and there will be many more accidents.

The proposal is a classic example of what not to do.

[nakbin330]

Airman. You really do need to get a grip on reality.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Airmann, that is essentially what RYR do, and it means that most cannot afford to go sick, regardless of how ill or tired they are. It's a terrible idea. As for the company making sure pilots don't report unfit, they already have that responsibility, along with us, so why would it suddenly become more effective?

[jack schidt]

To me, the definitions and defining differences between being tired and fatigued are clear.

Tiredness means that you can have a good sleep and feel readily mentally and physically refreshed.

Fatigue means that you sleep and when you wake you still have a mental haziness like a 2 day hangover and a physical lethargy like you ran a marathon the day before. No matter what rest you have had recently, fatigue is still present. Pilots ARE flying fatigued and micro napping at the controls during critical stages of flight!

Sadly pilots state fatigue and want more money and I agree, more money is the answer!! The more the salary increases, the more pilots will come and ease the pressure on those currently flying.

J

[Mr Good Cat]

Sadly pilots state fatigue and want more money and I agree, more money is the answer!! The more the salary increases, the more pilots will come and ease the pressure on those currently flying.

J

Unfortunately not true. I hear from those who attended THAT meeting, that AAR says the manning levels are as planned and 95 hours a month is to be the norm.

So they might increase the salary just enough to make people think twice about resigning, but they won't recruit more pilots to ease the workload. It's just not in the plan. And that's the biggest problem with us as a pilot group in the ME. We tend to be mercenaries - happy to state fatigue is prevalent and dangerous but just as happy to ignore it to earn an extra 10 bucks... Airline managers know this and use it to their advantage - if you want an example consider a certain European LoCo who used to work to a random roster pattern which was quite tiring swapping earlies to lates and back again. They introduced a fixed pattern of 5 earlies followed by days off and 5 lates to mitigate the effects of sleep deprivation. Then when they realised they needed flexibility due to shortage of crew they offered volunteers £10,000 to go on a random roster for 3 months in the summer... Guess what? - no shortage of volunteers and no fatigue reports even though behind the scenes everyone was saying they were shattered due to the disruptive nature of the flexi rosters. Still, nice to boast about that extra cash, eh?

[notapilot15]

Jack S

If pilots asking money for fatigue, hire more pilots, lots of them. Then greedy ones cannot demand any more. There are more 777s operated by other carriers with lots of well trained pilots, and those pilots should join in a heartbeat.

Money is not the problem for this well run profitable numbers company.
It can spend $2 Billion/year on marketing, advertising and bad mouthing other airlines.
It can take two B777s and a A380 every month.
It can have dozens of routes with average load factor of 34%.
It gives away economy seats at throw away prices.
Its premium cabins are filled with state officials, reward FFPs and other free upgrades.
Unlimited supply of Dom and Hennessy.
None of these are characteristics of a well run for-profit commercial entity.

While throwing away money on so many things just to show off, why be stingy on actual humans who are the most important factor of flight safety aspect.

You ability to distinguish fatigue from tiredness means nothing to 62 fatalities and their families.

[MR8]

I have said it many times and will continue to say so:

As long as EK doesn't up the overtime payment to at least 1500 Dhs/hr for captains, there won't be any improvement.
Think what the average captain costs to the company, include things as medical department and training department running costs, schooling fees, accommodation etc.. You will easily reach a number around 1200 Dhs/hr. Yet, for those extra hours you put in, the company pays you only 600???
From the company's perspective, you are giving them 600 Dhs per hour to work overtime!! They have absolutely NO incentive to stop that. So the one thing that's way more important than any numbers published about thresholds etc, is the amount you are paid when you exceed this threshold. This HAS to be more then what you cost below the threshold.

I know pprune is not the place to ask management these questions, but these questions need to be asked EVERY time there is a forum, a management meeting etc.. It's in fact also the big question journalist should be interested in: Why do people work cheaper in overtime, and how does this reflect on the company's safety culture claim?

[ByeByeDubai]

MR8 you are entirely correct.


However, why not then write to HD or JA and ask this question? Asking at a forum or washup is a complete waste of time.


Writing in, following up and forcing a written reply is far more useful. Send it in as a forum topic. Only then is there useful data to be taken up the line and a record. JA has bosses too. He cant say "I heard from a few". He needs the data. This place is "data driven" if you hadn't already noticed.


If others also write in on the same subject it is more likely to be addressed. (you may not even be aware that they have written). A mass of written data is hard to avoid especially if something unpleasant happens. No one wants that sitting in the open.
The same principle applies to ASR's, Fatigue Reports etc.


Keep it factual, unemotional and polite and there is little to fear. Everyone down from TC has asked for feedback. I wonder how many do. Yet they are happy to gripe on Pprune which is entirely useless.


I have been here many years and written my views on some controversial topics. I have put in Fatigue Reports when required, and ASR's on system shortcomings. Never once have I been singled out for special treatment or been otherwise blacklisted.


The pilot fraternity are happy to see T&C erode and moan to everyone on every forum but are any of: too lazy, too stupid, too illiterate or simply too cowardly to put the effort into writing in response to the numerous invitations we have.


On your topic: Apparently this was raised at the last forum though was likely ad-hoc rather than written in advance. JA denied that the low overtime rate was used as substitute to hiring more pilots. Apparently amazed anyone should think this. This was disputed by those there who pointed out that he may be amazed but it had surely not missed the accountants.


Its clearly obvious that overtime is economically preferable to more pilots. It was only intended as a tool to be used in some peak flying months to avoid an over supply of pilots in non peak months. Perfectly reasonable from a company perspective. This was written to us some years ago.


However some crafty accountants have done their sums and now we do productivity to the point of exhaustion. Because its cost effective. And because few have actually complained thereby allowing the status quo to go unaddressed.

[Mr Good Cat]

I'm not sure that's the right question at all, MR8...!

The question should not be about how much money a company pays to push it's pilots to the limits and beyond, but why that company is not rostering at a sensible level to avoid the fatigue issue.

I'd be interested to see an anonymous poll on PPRUNE indicating how pilots perceive the benefits of more money versus less fatigue.

Imagine going for major heart surgery at a hospital in the Western world and finding out your doctor is struggling to stay awake because he worked some extra night shifts for a few bucks more.

The only difference being that if he makes a mistake he can bury it - literally.

Fly safe :ok:

[Bluffontheriver123]

I agree that the overtime cost being beneficial to the company is an issue. So too are the SNAFU variations and exceptions that the MRA has managed to get the GCAA to accept. What is really beyond the pale is the corrupted recording of relief crew flight time allowing the flight time limits to be routinely exceeded without any real justification. The flying schedule can then be flown with fewer pilots at the expense of their health and well being.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Mr Good cat
Its well known that fatigue goes out of the window when money is involved. Its been like this since Pontius was a pilot. Your flogging a dead horse. Yes it could be different at EK but .....

[Talparc]

Flying 80+ hrs every month with minimum days off and combined rest patern while flying a worldwide ops is the base of beeing sick and fatiqued and so compromising safety.

[fatbus]

Welcome to the new world. It's the norm now and not just here.

[cucuotto]

There is a substantial difference in contractual powers here. Airlines are using IATA meeting as a mean to orchestrate the degradation of pilot salaries and life styles. Pilots are just bitching on Pprune and looking at their shor term interests Look at the western pilot conditions up to the 80/90s and see how they deteriorated after deregulation and the fall of the Berlin Wall. Union are the only solution and in a globalized world pilots need a global union. We should start looking into something like it.. Pilots can stop the world from turning.

[harry the cod]

cucuotto

A lot will depend on the union, who's your representative and for which Company you work.

For 10 years I wasted 1% of my salary, funding an organisation who's only real interest was in defending the state carrier. Just ask Dan Air pilots how good BALPA was at protecting seniority. Of course, 'colleagues' in BA would say that those already type rated deserved to get in while it was 'tough titties' on those rated on obsolete B727's and BAC1-11's. Guys in their forties and fifties with families were made jobless overnight whilst young, single and far more junior pilots rated on the B737 went to work the next day in BA uniforms. Isn't one of the fundamental principles of the union to protect seniority? How about asking the British Midland pilots about how useful BALPA was in protecting their pensions, a pension that 'disappeared' when Lufthansa took over. The former boss of BM, who I refuse to refer to as a 'Sir' because he most definitely isn't one, left with a very large payout from the 'sale'. Hundreds of millions of pension money simply disappeared. These are just two well known UK cases. There are plenty more including Australia and the US with their legacy airlines.

So, when people talk about how great unions are, I think of the guys who 'lead' these councils and their real agenda. My own BALPA representative was an overweight, smelly and tight fisted hypocrite who claimed to be left wing but lived in a multi million pound house in an exclusive part of the UK South Coast near Brighton. He bragged once that his son rang the police because he thought his mum was missing. Turned out the house was so big she just hadn't heard him shouting! The police recommended an intercom system for their multi room mansion. His children went to private schools and yet he'd go on a 7 day trip to somewhere warm and use the suntan cream from the junior cabin crew. His often quoted saying 'we put a shot across their bows' was a way of saying....I hear what you're saying, I'll try to justify your 1% by pretending to do something, but I couldn't really give a toss as I'm in this for myself and hopefully I'll get elected to the board and make a name for myself at the top of the organisation.

Over £6000 I contributed to my union. It was the worst 'investment' decision of my life!

Harry

[olster]

Harry, with the greatest of respect you are wrong in some ( not all!) of your BALPA criticism. I could cite you many examples where the union was pro-active and successful in bringing about change for the good. The Dan - Air situation is oft - quoted but does not reflect reality. BALPA was told to 'back off' so BA could cherry pick the 737 operation and Gatwick crews. Otherwise, no deal. BALPA did not bankrupt Dan - Air; unfortunately, they managed to do that all on its own. The BA 'take over' is a glimpse of the future where 'fairness' takes a back seat.

However, I do agree with you about the appalling pillage of the BM pension scheme and the greed of the main protagonist who was amazingly knighted by the UK establishment. Plus... in recent years after being a long time BALPA member I too have tired of the endless rearguard battles, generally lost with ruthless and immoral 'management'. I was until fairly recently in a well known airline, very unionised ( no prizes) that merged with a rival with, shall we say, a more 'modern' approach to managing people. The plc had been used to dealing in a gentlemanly fashion with managers and that was no longer the case. So in summary, the union is really only as good as those elected. I know a lot of individuals who invested a lot of their time for the greater good but unfortunately as in your example some that were only investing in their career advancement through this well travelled route into management. The major issue is the greed and immorality of modern managers, presumably prevalent in other industries but particularly ours and the inability of unions to cope with them.

[Aluminium shuffler]

I was shafted by BALPA in EZY in the early 2000s. I will never, ever pay money to that organisation again. They are utterly corrupt - at least the company is honest in acting in its own interests. BALPA won't publicly back REPA at Ryanair now, because they're too cowardiced.

[CaptainChipotle]

And your comments on fatigue are? ...Or is this a union bashing thread?

[Aluminium shuffler]

Sorry,Chipotle, didn't realise that replying to another post wasn't allowed. Or do you have a horse in the union race?

[olster]

Very interesting A/S. I was in EZY during the early 2000's. The plc were mainly manned by Antipodeans who were no B/S individuals who combatted the worst excesses of the appalling 'orange' management with robust opposition. They had integrity in spades and were not 'cowardice' (sic) in the slightest. Their main achievement - to bring the thread back on track - was to introduce the block days on / off roster which at the very least off set the fatigue - inducing random rosters so beloved of the rostering department of that era (It's legal ). To say that they are corrupt is unfair and untrue - the opposite is the case. The 1pc that is paid to BALPA is tax deductible and is negligible in fact. I am no longer a blinkered supporter of BALPA but I am disappointed that they have not risen to the challenge of modern business practice and lack of morality that poisons the airline industry today.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Olster, I don't wish to digress on this thread, but in short, those three and the others on the council endorsed and signed a deal that was kept secret from the membership and rest of the pilots until ratified that cost senior FOs their loyalty bonuses and a lot of flight pay. The deal cost senior FOs £14pa and 2 weeks leave. The capts on the council were all made TREs a month later, and a month after that, all company TREs got a 25% pay rise. Make of that what you will...

[harry the cod]

olster

Appreciate the balanced view, obviously fortunate enough to have a better Company Council than the circus I had. Unfortunately, there were one or two hard workers with massive integrity but this was blocked by the overweight buffoon who was in charge at the time!

Back to the thread. A colleague recently was 'SKF' but I noticed at the beginning of the month he'd had 7 consecutive days off. With the monthly hours consistently standing at around 90, the system needs to make up the work somehow and will compact duties into tight blocks if people are requesting large chunks of days off. The question is, therefore, are we in danger of having these 'unlimited' days off restricted again in light of this accident if fatigue is indeed cited as a factor? While the hourly schedules are as high as they are, it's almost impossible NOT to have fatigue inducing rosters if some of us want to get blocks of days off to commute.

Just a thought.

Harry

[CaptainChipotle]

Harry, this isn't a commuting job. Im not a company man by any means, but they go through great lengths to make sure you don't commute. Harry, sometimes i agree with you, but here i do not. The fatigue issue involves safety and includes everyone (unless you're that robot that the "SAFE" system uses). Being able to string days off so you can commute and not be too tired to operate is the problem of a select few. If you want to commute, GET A COMMUTING JOB. They're out there. Time to realize whats on the menu and not order the Filet Mignon at McDonalds.

Aluminium Shuffle... I would love to chat about unions, but there will never be a union here, for obvious reasons.

[harry the cod]

CaptainChipotle

The 'us' was a generic reference. I'm fortunate that it's not applicable in my situation as I don't commute. I do, however, agree with you 100% that it was never designed to be a commuting career in EK but that doesn't mean to say that pilots are not going to do so. Unfortunately, several of our colleagues have gone through divorces with ex spouses now 'back home' with the kids. I think it would be unreasonable to expect anyone of us not to want to spend time with their children, hence the desire for some to bid for multiple blocks of days off.

Yes, the vast majority of us joined knowing the gig but for some who's circumstances have changed, their only priority now is seeing their growing children as often as possible. This is perhaps also the reason why some are leaving to return back to lesser paid jobs. The colleague I referred to in my earlier post with 7 days off is in this exact situation. I can't see him lasting more than another few years at most.

Harry

[BigGeordie]

Commuting in this job will kill you long before retirement. However, personally I find it very beneficial, from a fatigue point of view, to be able to get a string of days off now and again rather than 2 or 3 days dotted around the roster. Gives me a chance to reset my body clock. Does anybody really think that 2 days off after a 6 day trip to AKL is enough?

[ekpilot]

Harry, fatigue does affect somatogravic illusion.

Google this: www.caa.co.za/.../Disorientation.pdf

[fliion]

Harry,

I'm with Geordie - those seven nights of consecutive nights sleep in same time zone (assuming you use it that way) sets me up nicely for a couple of weeks.

1-2 days of at a time, no chance at exiting the zombie zone.

[Talparc]

the problem is to bring down the ever increasing hours to a normal level.

When I joined we were flying 50-60 hrs now 90 hrs.

If that's done, fatique will not be an issue any more.

But this reduction of hrs will only happen if they are forced from outside.

[Sciolistes]

90 hrs is not in itself an issue. It is the structure of the roster that mainly determines how difficult it is to sleep.

[framer]

90 hrs is not in itself an issue. It is the structure of the roster that mainly determines how difficult it is to sleep.
I couldn't agree more. I could happily do 90 hrs a month of certain sectors, yet 70 hours rostered poorly leaves me knackered.

[sluggums]

I agree to a point. I used to say that I was 'how' you did your hours that mattered, not how many hours you did...

But now I'm not so sure. 90+ hours, month in, month out leaves me buggered. It doesn't matter how I do them. So no, we need a reduction, not strings of days off. Not that the oxygen thieves in the bouncy castle give two hoots...

[keepitrealok]

Harry

Re: Post#43.

I think you have accidentally fallen into the 'EK Management Mindset.'

The problem isn't 7 days off in a row and 90+hrs of flying in the remaining days.

The problem is 90+hrs of 'EK flying' each and every month.

Are guys using it to try and commute? I guess a few are. But I'll suggest most are using it to try and remove themselves from the toxic workplace that is EK and just feel normal again. But that is only going to be a short term fix. The simple fact is everybody here is tired and many are fatigued.

Until they realize that their rostering rules may be legal but are certainly not humane or sustainable for the long term nothing will change. And sadly, there is only one way that that will be driven into their conscious awareness.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

I see the Chicago layover has finally gone to 50 hours, I wonder what finally made them see sense and change?? :D:D

Keep posting those ASR's for it, as apparently this new change isn't immediate, its 1st of June.. Muppets.

SyB :zzz::zzz:

[CaptainChipotle]

The ORD layover is a tough one, by all means. What makes it worse is that the company rosters you for minimum rest before and after that flight.

50 hours is great, and I'm sure welcomed by most of us, but it does nothing if we are rostered for night turns to the legal minute after the trip and are worked to the bone before the trip.

But hey! Its legal Captain!


Keep the blue side up fellas

CC

[Not too small]

Great topic and i like all the contributions here,i think there are so many factors that contributed on this life style(FATIGUE) one that i have seen my self is the state of the art computerized sys that those airlines use at the moment, the companies ask the to have the most utilized rosters for pilots so they can save money wile in the old days it was done manually.and this act cant happen if there was a union,the FTL have to change with the change of the industry itself.