FZ whistleblower goes to media - EK next?

[fliion]

And so the onion starts to be peeled.

Purely passing on public info -

https://www.rt.com/news/336514-flydubai-pilots-fatigue-crash/

[in freedom]

stay tuned, more on the way. RT keep updating their site as more guys write and call in:

https://www.rt.com/news/336823-pilots-respond-flydubai-leak-fatigue/

[Trader]

EGGY1, the issue with something like fatigue is that it is difficult to quantify. No one is gong to step up, especially in an organized manner, in this part of the world.

In fact it is COMMENDABLE after the fact!! Whistle blower legislation around the world began to PROTECT the whistleblower since, historically, when there was no protection they were often punished with no recourse. That doesn't exist in the ME. Many leave and simply stay quite because no one listens anyway, there is no recourse and now that they have left there is even less incentive.

It takes a serious accident for anyone to listen.

[CTWO]

Former colleague of FlyDubai captain tells of clues to crash | The National (http://www.thenational.ae/uae/former-colleague-of-flydubai-captain-tells-of-clues-to-crash)


..just wait and see...

[fliion]

So FZ responds stating they "strictly adhere" to FTL rules.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/flydubai-says-its-pilots-strictly-follow-flying-duty-time-rules-625776.html#.VvOIAPDXerU

Can EK say the same? Not according to preflight timeline which is a complete abuse of the OMA.

GCAA Where are you?

I'm not alone in believing It's only a matter of time before we're next.

[fatbus]

I'm curious WRT pre flight timelines. What do other company's do . My previous company was 1.5 show time and duty started then. As a professional I would always plan to show up early which would account for poss traffic delays . I lived 1hr 15 min away and would leave home 3 hours prior to departure .

[fliion]

Fatty

The rub is the combination of duty in time combined with number of pilots on certain sector lengths and layover time.

My previous carrier, a long hauler, had minus 1 hour BUT anything over 8hrs - 3 pilots, anything over 11hrs - 4 pilots. And of course all ULRs had a minimum of 36 HR layovers (90% 48h) An acceptable balance.

If we were T -minus 90 here a lot of those grueling Asian returns, long day/night turns ETC would mandate an extra relief pilot.

It's just always pushing the envelope with manning and layover length that is burning the guys out.

It's a cheese hole.

[nolimitholdem]

EGGY, no offense, but with only two posts both of the same gist I get the sense you don't really know how it "works" (if I can call it that) in the Middle East or other regions outside of areas with legitimate reporting/legal systems.

Trader is correct - it's terrible that it took loss of life to be the catalyst, but it absolutely is commendable that anyone would step forward when there are zero protections, whilst at the same time possible dire consequences, for doing so.

I for one am happy to provide any legitimate news agency or regulator with any amount of information regarding rostering practices at EK. And yeah, I have a lot. Do I think it will actually change anything? Who knows. It's not exactly a fair fight. But it's heartening to see the amount of will to try and expose the practices of the ME3 to the world that is starting to appear.

[nakbin330]

Many of the Far Eastern airlines who employ expats on commuting contracts have been using the FTLs as a target for decades.

I stand to be corrected, but I believe KAL require 80 stick hours per month, and as the 777 and 744 pilots fly mainly ULR, they tend to accumulate a lot of hours in the aircraft in order to achieve this, > 120 hours per month on average.

Both Taiwanese outfits operate to a different set of rules, but 900 stick hours is the target. There is no rolling total in Taiwan. If on Dec 31 one has accumulated 900 hours, Jan 1 one is back to zero. Same story month to month.

My point is that all these outfits are following the laws of their land and the FAA, EASA, etc, etc, etc don't care as long as they do so.

It's the same in the ME. It might not seem fair or reasonable that we fly such tiring rosters, but as long as the outfits here operate within the confines of their respective OM-As, they're bullet proof.

The onus is on the crews to call SKF(sick fatigue).

[fliion]

Nabkin - the point is they don't work within the confines as you will see if you wait to go through eGATE at 60 prior.

They're rigging the preflight and grabbing an extra approvpx 30mins per duty.

Contrary to what Harry says - you cannot wait until 60 prior to go through without hearing about it.

I had dealings with ex ACPB (since gone) specifically over this issue.

It's one thing to have to do it - but to not even get paid for it is while we are already in OT is an added insult

[Talparc]

Even BBC is now getting reports from former Pilots

FlyDubai crash pilot 'was due to leave job over fatigue' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35855678)

[nakbin330]

Nabkin - the point is they don't work within the confines as you will see if you wait to go through eGATE at 60 prior.

They're rigging the preflight and grabbing an extra approvpx 30mins per duty.

Contrary to what Harry says - you cannot wait until 60 prior to go through without hearing about it.

I had dealings with ex ACPB (since gone) specifically over this issue.

It's one thing to have to do it - but to not even get paid for it is while we are already in OT is an added insult

The FT article had the bouncy castle in a tizz, as we all know, and the incriminating 'time sheet' was removed. The email fm whomever advising it's removal did the rounds so I'm sure it'll turn up again somewhere.

The GCAA are not going to let this issue land in their lap, in my opinion, and should push come to shove, I believe our duty start time will be pushed back to 1:30, by the company, as more and more interested parties stick their noses in.

[Talparc]

Nakbin330 FYI
The e mail you mentioned was from MRA (Manager Regulatory Affairs Flight Operations)
on 22.04.2015
to all the Managers

[Talparc]

Found the link to the mentioned WS article from 2015 just as a reminder

Pilot Workload at Emirates Under Question - WSJ (http://www.wsj.com/articles/pilot-workload-at-emirates-under-question-1428587945)

[disconnected]

The National article is misleading. The UAE GCAA regulations allow a pilot to work up to 60 hours duty in 7 days. It's there in black and white. That's almost 9 hrs a day every day for 7 days at any time of day or night.
The media (with help from the airlines) confuse flying hours with working hours. There is much work to be done before, after and in between flights. Few other industries demand this and certainly airline office staff only work 40 hours in 7 days. Of course a pilot will be fatigued if pushed toward the 60 hour limit in a noisy, vibrating, excessively dry, oxygen reduced and often stressful environment. Airlines in the UAE push these limits. The public must be made aware that their family may be flying with the pilots near the end of a 60 hour week.

It's appropriate to correct the media and the public with the true numbers of how much work a pilot can be pushed to do .
60 a week or 190 in 28 days. That's up to 2470 hours a year.
Those are the facts.

Even the public can see these limits are excessive, dangerous and plainly wrong.

[ps123]

Yes EK is next.
See our report : https://www.rt.com/news/337128-emirates-pilots-fatigue-scandal/
Please if anyone wants to talk to us - contact me at [email protected]
We are really concerned about the welfare of pilots by making them fly unreasonable and fatigue-inducing schedules. We treat all information with the utmost confidentiality.
Please contact Paula Slier at [email protected]

[ExDubai]

Well, that could get nasty. Let's see if other Media jump on this train...

[helen-damnation]

Exactly how many pilots have "disappeared" in the UAE? I'm not talking about those who "resigned" down route.

The only one I can think of was the alleged personal pilot of a certain wanted person and I don't think he's under a sand dune!

The only way things will change is facts. i.e. Factoring of flight time was ONLY ever intended for licensing, to ensure a pilot accumulated a required amount of time and experience before being issued a "higher" license. It was never intended to be used for flight time limitations.

[in freedom]

HD, try googling for the recent case of Canadian citizen detained in UAE without charges. Or read the US State Department report on human rights in the UAE. People disappear every year.

[Rather Be Skiing]

The National article is misleading. The UAE GCAA regulations allow a pilot to work up to 60 hours duty in 7 days. It's there in black and white. That's almost 9 hrs a day every day for 7 days at any time of day or night.
The media (with help from the airlines) confuse flying hours with working hours. There is much work to be done before, after and in between flights. Few other industries demand this and certainly airline office staff only work 40 hours in 7 days. Of course a pilot will be fatigued if pushed toward the 60 hour limit in a noisy, vibrating, excessively dry, oxygen reduced and often stressful environment. Airlines in the UAE push these limits. The public must be made aware that their family may be flying with the pilots near the end of a 60 hour week.

It's appropriate to correct the media and the public with the true numbers of how much work a pilot can be pushed to do .
60 a week or 190 in 28 days. That's up to 2470 hours a year.
Those are the facts.

Even the public can see these limits are excessive, dangerous and plainly wrong.

The hours flown/worked in a month are only part of the issue.

It is also important to consider what kind of flying makes up those hours. 90 hours long-haul vs short-haul vs regional are quite different. Each has its positives and negatives. When the 90 hours can encompass all 3 types in one month it creates a schedule unlike any other. More days worked with less time to recover between duties.

Now also consider how much of that work is back side of the clock and it paints a very different picture again.

So while it may be " legal" it doesn't make such schedules advisable.

[migair54]

now it's Emirates turn.

https://www.rt.com/news/337128-emirates-pilots-fatigue-scandal/

[helen-damnation]

in freedom,

Noted but that's detained, not disappeared.

I want changes but there needs to be reasoned arguments and facts, not fanciful rhetoric.

[Andy24]

Following these press reports, rest assured that the cause of the FlyDubai accident will not be pilot fatigue. They can't afford to lose face

[in freedom]

HD

yes the Canadian was "only" detained and tortured

read the US State Department report on human rights in UAE

Or visit human rights watch and you will find the disappearance cases

[thehighlander959]

Good afternoon SLF here, however have a vested interest in this thread as I have flown over 750,000 miles with Emirates over the years examples DXB to LHR LGW GLA BHX CDG Accra Tripoli Tunisia Lagos JNB DOH HKG SIN all aircraft A330, A340 300/500 A380 B777 200/300/300ER.
The point I wish to make is that this side of the business you are talking about here the passengers don't see. I really have the greatest of sympathy for all you working in that kind of environment.
I have worked offshore and lost people on some very unsafe Platforms and FPSO's with poor working conditions similar rules apply although we are 12/14 on and 10/12 off.
I believe this Media coverage could work if trickled out properly.

[thehighlander959]

Don't worry,don'tworry...
Don't do it...
Pull up, pull up.
[I]Question is Don't do what?

[fliion]

Looks like mainstream business press is now on to it

http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/emirates-denies-pilot-flight-fatigue

Tut tut...still not true... re 60 prior.

Getting interesting

[Talparc]

More news about modern slavery

https://www.rt.com/news/337158-flydubai-fatigue-pilots-roster/

[Nikita81]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dJl6T-oBlw

[helen-damnation]

in freedom

Yes, all noted.

However, the point made was in relation to pilots going missing because of work related issues. Simply not true IMHO.

[Plank Cap]

That's what an EK spokesperson says in response to the Business Traveller's Tom Otley after a request for information. See the link above to the Business Traveller.

So, good that's all sorted then. Starting tomorrow all EK pilots required to arrive at work no sooner than 1 hour before departure.

The Volvo driver might be waiting a while outside your front door, but he'll understand.

[nolimitholdem]

helen,

In about 2008 (if memory serves) I flew with a captain who was hauled onto the carpet with the CP-B. His crime? He had been given a flight plan over the Himalayas in a -300, which was performance limited for the sector, and declined, asking for southerly alternate routing. This resulted in a large delay for the flight, Chinese ATC being what it is, and upon arriving back in DXB was summoned to the office to explain. The DEC captain, big Irish gent, stuck to his guns and laid out his logical reasons for delaying the flight. This increasingly infuriated the local CP, especially the point at which he asked the captain if in the future, faced with a similar situation, would he repeat the same decision? To which the captain calmly replied that of course he would, after all his job was to make difficult decisions in the best interests of safety, he had done so on the flight in question, why wouldn't he in the future?

At that point the CP bluntly told him that if he did repeat such a decision, the captain's wife and new daughter would never find him in the desert, and Emirates would have "forgotten" about him.

If you don't believe this, ask the other person at that meeting, the now DCP-B, of the one half of the Canadian wine family. He did not defend the captain in the slightest.

As the captain told me, his biggest regret was that he hadn't recorded the meeting. I don't know if he's still at EK.

So sure. It may have been only "rhetoric". But to suggest that such dire things are never threatened, is false. To think that they don't happen in the UAE, is naive. it wasn't that long ago Sheikh Issa was torturing an Afghani over a few thousand dirham.

[uba737]

nolimitholdem, he went back to the US last Summer!!!

[keepitrealok]

helen-damnation,

You need to re-read the article because you are doing what everyone claims your employer does - mis-represent what is written.

Nowhere does it say that pilots go missing in the UAE. It says "people can “disappear” in the UAE." That's very different.

I had a laugh at your comment re "not fanciful rhetoric." Considering EK is the master at such, I think it is amusing that they are now on the receiving end. ;) But in this case, that article seems pretty factual.

[Vortex Thing]

Surely, if the general consensus among the pilots of these 2 companies is that they are being forced by company culture to endanger lives, they owe it to their families and thousands of unsuspecting pax to have spoken up collectively with supporting evidence and legal advice. If things are truly as bad for all concerned, perhaps rather suffer a few months of relative hardship without a job than risk it all.

Whistle-blowing is commendable, but not as effective incognito and after the fact. As long as people are more afraid of losing their jobs than they are of the perceived consequences of keeping them, they will not be taken seriously.
EGGY I don't suppose that it would occur to you that this is something that everyone was aware off. The every department knows, HR, internal audit, crewing, operations everyone there are mountains of ASRs and there is no shortage of pilots with stories.

The culture of fear, intimidation and bullying is so large that the threats from the managment have grown to counter it. They can and have stopped visas, held passports, prevented famiies (yes wives and children) from leaving UAE if non disclosure agreements are not signed.

The press have been given the story numerous times back to the hunting knife incident being suppressed from the Kabul flight to many many more stories of FTL "boundaries", rostering into dicsretion, not off loading pax who sexually assault cabin crew, not off laoding pax full stop when the cmdr has alady made the decision, telling you not to go or to go, telling you not to divert or divert.

Sadly no one listened until now. They are and remain above the law, no one in power in Dubai cares and no one wants to listen.

At the end of the day the CPs favourite phrase is ,"If you don't like it, leave" so guess what, people eventually just leave. I do not understand why thse in real power in Dubai allow this to happen but thier own departments GCAA, Labour, Internal Affairs and Legal Affairs have numerous cases where the above have been cited. They have chosen to sidleine the pilots involved and mostly let them leave quietly or in a fewer cases noisily.

[dustyprops]

Once again EGGY1 you are the only one pushing in the opposite direction to the crowd.

Enjoy Costa!

(Gulag.....well you said it.......)

[in freedom]

I suggest you take all of that to a credible press agency then.

E1
EGGY1, you can spread the word at Costa that this will be in other news channels. Promise.

For my part I am seriously impressed by the RT coverage. What may matter even more is that if you use Google (except google.ae) the first hit on both FlyDubai and Emirates is the RT coverage. Been that way for days. That must be painful for the brand.

"It takes 20 years to build a reputation and 5 minutes to ruin it" Warren Buffett

[shorthauler72]

As far as Russia Today is concerned, I suggest y'all google these three words: Russia Today Chemtrails.

Enjoy!

[LLuCCiFeR]

As far as Russia Today is concerned, I suggest y'all google these three words: Russia Today Chemtrails.

Enjoy!Finally the media is starting to pay attention to something what could be a big problem in the entire worldwide aviation community, and what do some pilots do? Attack the messenger! Some pilots really are dumber than turkeys voting for Thanksgiving! :ugh: :=

Or are these people airline managers or office lackeys, trolling and using the internet to extend their web of misinformation, lies and intimidation? :suspect: :yuk:

[anson harris]

There might not be a lot of love for RT, but the phrase "make hay while the sun shines" comes to mind. It's not going to shine for more than a few weeks until the media get bored and move on.

[wapses]

Looking at this thread I am being bombarded with banners for EK pilot recruitment! Weird, bizarre, sacringly amusing.

[ps123]

I want to thank everyone for getting in touch. I know it’s not easy. Thank you for taking us into your trust and know that your confidentiality will be protected. This is a huge story for RT and we will run with it for as long as possible. But personally I want to promise you that I will stay on it – even when it is no longer breaking news I will still continue to investigate. Anything that anyone thinks of that is a new angle or new development, please let me know as this helps push the story back into the public eye. Best of luck to you all and please stay safe. My deepest respect, Paula Slier [email protected]

[Old King Coal]

ps123 - if there was a 'like' button I'd have pressed it ! ;)

[JyotiScindia]

Dear Management,



We write as a group of First Officers currently employed in Oman Air and this letter reflects the thoughts and cocerns of its signees only.



We would like to bring the following points to the attention of the management for consideration and correction:



ROSTER



In the past year, due to crew shortages, the majority of First Officers have been scheduled an average of 85 or more hours per month. In some cases annual leave was denied and/or shortened as well.

There is no “pattern” or Fatigue Management System in place, therefore morning, afternoon and night flights are planned in such a way that they require a massive effort in body clock adjustments, which is a big contributing factor in accumulating fatigue. There is not enough time to readjust or rest between some flight shifts (i.e. morning to night, night to morning) or enough Off Days to recover. This is also reflected in an increased number of sick leave absences.

The latest roster changes increased Duty Times even further.

We would like to point out that whilst our roster is “legal” from a regulatory standpoint, it doesn't necessarily mean it's “healthy” as well.

All of us are starting to feel the onset and consequences of accumulated fatigue.



We therefore ask the management to acknoledge and take serious and expedite action to address this problem. We strongly request for the implementation of a Fatigue Management System and the introduction of additional Off Days to be able to operate SAFELY the proposed roster.

As pilots, we believe SAFETY is everyone's priority, and we feel this has been overlooked and second placed in favour of commercial aspects during the last year.

We understand that as a Company we have to make adjustments to become profitable, but these adjustments should also cater for employees well being. The hiring process of additional workforce is not happening in pace with the increased requirement, resulting in all of us being pushed to the limit.



PERFORMANCE PAY



The new roster scheme has introduced a lot of ground time and/or Augmented Crew for a lot of flights, resulting in a major increase in Duty Times. Apart from the Fatigue considerations expressed above, this also heavily impacts on the Performance Pay of each of us. We are currently payed by block hours, thus this increase in Duty Hours and decrease in Flying Hours translates into “work more, for less”.

We ask the management to take action to correct this situation, eitherreverting to Duty Hour pay or introducing some form of compensation for the extensive Duty Times.

The new upgrade/fleet transfer policies have already had a negative impact on Pilot's motivation, these new changes further affect us in a negative way.

We are afraid this might cause further resignations, which will penalise the Company and us even more.







We are willing to discuss these matters further with the Managent to address these problems, which have become of primary importance to us all.

[Talparc]

More reading:

https://www.rt.com/news/337388-emirates-gcaa-watchdog-oversight/

[Nikita81]

@JyotiScindia (http://www.pprune.org/members/455655-jyotiscindia)

I don't get it. Are you hoping, like many pilots here, that management will read your forum post and react on it or have you sent it directly to management's address?

I mean: there are a lot of management trolls and company's men here, but let's be serious...

[Vortex Thing]

Nope I suspect it is a chest beating exercise. You see we all know that the powers that be do not care, have no oversight and can do whatever they want in the Middle East.

That however does not stop us being human, we have a right to air and it is healthy to air grievances in a constructive poster above seems to have done that. It is highy likely that they alongside many other pilots have done so to the mgt in the past and nothing has happened, it is highly likely that nothing will change.

However the poster has gotten a weight off, we hear that weight, we sigh with them collectively for we are brothers and sisters in flight and we are now better informed as to what colour the grass is on someone elses side of the fence.

Now if that isn't the essence of what this site is for please enlighten me. A little bit of CRM would be nice. We all need someone to listen even if it just means we are heard and dont have to bottle it up for another flight.

Lets face it its not like we dont have enough stress to deal with!

[Guided accordingly]

PS123, thanks for your support with this issue, I think its time to move up a gear.

I read that 60 pilots have come forward with fatigue issues...which is good, but to give this issue the weight it so desperately needs, we require some input and recommendations from other qualified sources.

Comment, or better still interviews with rostering staff, counterbalanced with scientific answers from an AME ( aeromedical examiner ) would properly highlight the issue.

It would be most revealing to have the Rostering Personnel go through a typical roster with the AME ( or a Sleep disorder specialist) and have them explain exactly how the crew member should 'manage' their sleep. Ie, times they are expected to sleep given a set of rostered duties.

The results would be clear - in many cases it would be impossible to get the medically recommended amount of quality restorative sleep - and they know it !

I've queried how to manage day/night swaps and 18 - 30hrs rest periods with the head of crew scheduling in my company. Guidance on how to cope with a roster he had generated was refused. The only response was "When I used to work shifts it was difficult switching from day to night and I always felt tired, you'll get used to it."

I never have got used to it, maybe its time to ask the experts.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

@JyotiScindia

PS123 this poster has committed the cardinal sin. He mentions the fatigue word then says give us some more money and the fatigue issues go away....

Guided
It would be most revealing to have the Rostering Personnel go through a typical roster with the AME ( or a Sleep disorder specialist) and have them explain exactly how the crew member should 'manage' their sleep. Ie, times they are expected to sleep given a set of rostered duties.

The results would be clear - in many cases it would be impossible to get the medically recommended amount of quality restorative sleep - and they know it !

I've queried how to manage day/night swaps and 18 - 30hrs rest periods with the head of crew scheduling in my company. Guidance on how to cope with a roster he had generated was refused. The only response was "When I used to work shifts it was difficult switching from day to night and I always felt tired, you'll get used to it."

I never have got used to it, maybe its time to ask the experts.
29th Mar 2016 09:30

EASA FTL now has a disruptive duty element for home base night to day transitions. I might be a long playing record but the 18-30 hour was a UK CAP rule based on charter airlines operating day / night transitions to Florida - which guess what they still do. There are also some rotations e.g. night/day with 18-30hr rest periods which are scientifically proven to be safe as long as crews rest and try and stay in their local TZ e.g. DXB time.

In terms of being able to cope with a set of flights in a roster, I suspect your Company has a "state of the art" FRMS tool such as SAFE, or BAM bolted onto the Scheduling system. The only minor problem with these are they are validated for all airlines not YOUR airline. To validate crews should take part in surveys, wear motion watches blah blah.
Let's hope some of this stuff comes out of the Fly Dubai incident.

[Guided accordingly]

Flydubai does not have an FRMS

Despite there being just one sentence in 'Part A' that says one exists.

One of the top management has been quoted as saying, 'fatigue is not an issue, therefore we do not require FRMS'.

make of that what you will :rolleyes:

[ruserious]

Well even if you do have a FRMS, like as not it will be a box ticking SHAM

[Talparc]

Ruserious: exactly by the way this is just a topic of the latest RT report

https://www.rt.com/news/338442-emirates-airline-whistleblower-site/


Interresting stuff to read as well:

https://donotflyemirates.wordpress.com/

[Rather Be Skiing]

Not related to this region but relevant none the less. Interesting that the performance degradation due to fatigue is quantified. Wonder if the same will be done with respect to the FZ investigation. Methinks not.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/fatigued-superjet-test-pilot-used-wrong-throttle-bef-423659/

[Talparc]

Great post Rather Be Skiing!