Sea Survival Training — Still Taught to RAF Aircrew?

[Warmtoast]

Sea Survival Training — Still Taught to RAF Aircrew?
Back in 1962 as a member of 99 Sqn (R.A.F. Lyneham — Britannias) I and the rest of my crew together with a crew from 511 Sqn, also Britannias, were sent on a sea survival training course at RAF Mountbatten.
A two-day course - day-one theory and techniques, day-two was practical. On day-two we donned service overalls and a Mae-west and boarded an ASR Launch at the breakwater to be taken out to Plymouth Sound. Once there we were tossed into the flippin-cold oggin, climbed one-by-one into an already inflated 12-man dinghy, zipped-up the dinghy entrance flap and were left for what seemed hours to get warm, but was probably not more than 45-minutes, but enough time to feel thoroughly queasy as the dinghy was tossed around by the waves.
One of the crew was manning the dinghy’s entrance flap and eventually the ASR helicopter (a Whirlwind?) appeared. We were then winched up into the helicopter one by one. With all aboard we were then winched one-by-one down onto the ASR launch nearby and once safely down on deck were then offered a noggin of Rum and eventually taken back to Mountbatten. The whole exercise was then repeated for the crew from 511.
Quite instructive and useful if we were ever forced to ditch so this event is something that sticks in one’s memory — even after 54-years!
This exercise probably took place around the 11th July 1962 because it coincided with the first live television transmission from the US via the Telstar satellite in orbit over the Atlantic and we, and most of the UK TV audience were engrossed enough to stay up late to watch this momentous event live. ISTR the first transmission early in the morning was a disappointment, but later, or the next day perhaps, more acceptable TV was transmitted. Mountbatten’s Mess must have made a fortune that night because we were drinking into the early hours to watch this event.
The ‘Lyneham Globe’ published an article about this training in the 17th August 1962 edition as can be seen from the photo in the cutting attached. I don’t appear in the photo, but believe the person shown climbing into the dinghy was an US Major on exchange posting to 511 Sqn.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Mountbatten%20Survival%20Training%20Aug%201962_zpsm5pop9u6.j pg

On the way down to Plymouth from Lyneham we [the 99 Sqn crew] travelled in two cars and the car I was in was driven by our Flight Engineer. He for some reason knew the West Country and its pubs fairly well and we agreed to RV with the other car and stop for lunch in Ilchester at the ‘Ilchester Arms’. I still have fond memories of this lunch as being one of the best pub lunches I’ve ever had.

So enough of my memories, does the R.A.F. still do such courses for aircrew?

[The B Word]

Yup RAF St Mawgan - Defence SERE Training (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafstmawgan/aboutus/defenceseretraining.cfm)

Sea drills and Pool drills...

[Stitchbitch]

Yes, it's still carried out today not only at St.Mawgan but around the bazaars. It was good fun at unit level, although the old fun meter reading could vary with the sea state and temperature..

[Tankertrashnav]

When we did it at Mountbatten we all clambered into a six man liferaft of the type carried in the Victor and closed it up. By the time the Whirlwind arrived all five of us had been sick - one of only two occasions in my life when I have had motion sickness (the other was in an armoured personnel carrier).

By the next time I did sea drills it had been sensibly decided that no-one was ever going to ditch a Victor, so the multi seat liferaft had been removed. After being chucked off the back of the launch we all got into our individual liferafts, and within a short time one of our number started to drift away downwind. When the Whirlwind arrived, he was the first to be picked up, and he told us afterwards that by hauling in the sea anchor on his dinghy he would drift downwind and thus spend less time bobbing around in the oggin.

At Kai Tak there was always a movement towards towards the open air pool when the Cathay Pacific hostesses (as they were then called) came to do their drills. I went once, but disappointingly the girls all wore jeans and jumpers for the exercise :(

[binbrook]

For one dinghy drill in the mid-50s we were given a pack which, instead of the normal single-seater, had an inflatable Michelin-man suit. You had to get it on, do up the press-studs (pre-velcro), and AFIR blow the thing up by mouth. You floated like a yellow banana and it was fine if you stayed on your back, but if you rolled over it was b****y difficult to get face-up again. I never saw one again and it's all a long time ago hence the question: did these things ever get put into real dinghy packs?

[Basil]

Recollect Bridlington in January being a bit cold. ISTR that, following the heart attack death of a 50yo Master Aircrew, we wore immersion suits in the winter.
I joined in '65 and never saw the Michelin-man suit.

[MadsDad]

I recall MadsLad telling the tales from his dinghy recue when training, about 2000. It was still, then at least, a mandatory 'tick box' and caused some problems.

What happened was while he was at Valley they were all taken out from Holyhead and thrown off the back of a Navy launch to be recued by the Valley SAR helicopter. Which, instead of pulling them out of the sea, went off into the distance to answer a real rescue shout, leaving them to be picked up by the launch. Sometime later, while on a later course at Lossie, they has another go. This time they had to drive down to St. Mawgan to be thrown into the sea at Newquay. And guess what happened to the helicopter again - yes, off it went into the distance. He finally got the tick by being pulled from the sea off Yarmouth, third time lucky.

[johnfairr]

On our F-4 drill at Mountbatten in 1973, we were all thrown in off a launch in two lines of six. Knowing it would be a while till were were picked up, and as it was December, I'd packed a waterproof bag with some cigarettes and matches, and secured them in the P-tube and then re-zipped it water-tight.

Got into the dinghy, inflated the floor, inflated the top-cover and threw out the sea-anchor. Nice and snug, I was last in line, facing, and drifting towards France. Right, time for a smoke!

After about two minutes the next thing I knew was that I was hurtling skywards, upside down and falling out of my dinghy. SSSSSSSSSSSSPlash as I hit the sea and the sight of the SAR launch disappearing at a rate of knots, having come past me at 40+!! It seemed that the Master Aircrew skipper had spotted my smoke and proceeded at full chat to capsize me with the bow wave!! Of course as he was upwind I hadn't heard him.

Naturally I was the last to be picked up, to be met by a very grumpy M Pilot who told me to get below and have some rum. He was not impressed by the wet-behind-everything Pilot Officer asking for some coke to go with the rum. :\:\

[Pontius Navigator]

Done sea drills at Mountbatten, Malta, Cyprus and Malaysia. Guess which one was the best.

Actually Malaysia was not dinghy drill as the dinghy was u/s but they still chucked us in the Strait and left us for about 30-40 minutes in life jackets. There was a buoy and using the current I tried to reach it. I did and was swept rapidly on my way.

The worst had to be when Prince Charles was doing his helicopter training. There was purple airspace over Mountbatten so we were at sea for well over 2 hours. The helo driver was very young and had rosy cheeks. Prettiest sight I can recall.

[5aday]

Mountbatten, Malta, and Kinloss in that order.
Mountbatten was tres professional, Malta was a Fred Carnos Circus,
and Kinloss was so cold I cannot remember very much except the Helo was from Lossie and no sooner than we were thrown overboard, the warmth of the exhaust from the Sea King happened in about less than 5 minutes.
Malta was in the early seventies when the Nimrod had just arrived and the
helo was a Royal Navy wessex from HMS (the Rusty) Bulwark and it was the first time he had done any winching (and it showed). One of our crew fell out of the strop at about 20 ft and the helo set off trying to collect him though he was being blown along like a ballon ahead of the helo wake. We were so busy laughing nobody thought to throw the quoit. He ran out of fuel after two lifts so he went back to Msida Creek to land on and top up again. Why he didn't lob into Luqa was a mystery to me. We spent about 3 to 4 hours in a MS9 and finally were collected by the launch and our skipper, Keefy Merret ,decided on a couple of crates of Cisk /Hop leak in the transit mess as some sort of recompense.

[Herod]

I managed to do several, and preferred the SS dinghy. If using the multi-seater I always volunteered to be the lookout. Nice fresh air in the face rather than the smell as one after the other sitting inside proceeded to show what he had eaten for lunch. On one exercise we were doing the "parachute-dragging" bit, where the hapless victim was towed behind the launch. I made the excuse that, since I was a helicopter pilot, I wouldn't have to cope with the parachute. "Too right" said the instructor, and proceeded to push me off the back of the launch - lifejacket not inflated, and wearing a waistcoat type dinghy pack. After a few seconds (which seemed like minutes) descending to the bottom of Plymouth harbour, I got the jacket inflated and bobbed to the surface again.

[binbrook]

Further to #5, be thankful that the Navy decided to dispense with the lethal Shrimp Net thing, which they were supposed to drag under the water until you were over it, then hoist. It was supposed to make it easier for injured aircrew and must have seemed a good idea at the time, but if a sea was running and it was cutting through the crests instead of being in deep, the spreader bar was lethal.

[ShyTorque]

I did the Mountbatten Course at least twice and was privileged to experience both the "dragging along by my parachute" and the "assisted jump" into the greatly aerated rooster tail of the motor launch. I agree with the previous poster who stated the worryingly long time to resurface. We were taken out a few hours after the passing of a force 6 gale and the sea state very rough just outside Plymouth Sound. The Whirlwind helicopter duly arrived to winch us but was called away on a shout. By the time it returned, some of us were close to getting shipwrecked on the rocks and too close for the launch to get to us. I was last to be picked up because I deflated the dinghy canopy and began paddling away from the rocks as hard as I could. All good fun to look back on, but quite a worry at the time.

[Herod]

binbrook, I think the shrimp-net thing was used because the earlier helicopters such as the Dragonfly were unable to carry a pilot, winch operator, winchman and survivor. With the advent of the Mighty Whirlwind (;)) this procedure was dropped.

[BEagle]

I endured the joys of wet rubber on at least a dozen occasions over the years. Best was at Mountbatten, because they were very professional in all respects. Worst as either at Tenby, when the launch suffered an engine failure and we had to be recovered by RIB (helicopter not available....) or at somewhere whilst at Wattisham - we had to change in and out of the provided immersion suits below in some windowless paint store whilst the launch pitched and rolled in a significant sea state....:yuk:

Always did it in immersion suits though!

The 'haul in the sea anchor to be picked up first' ploy was well-known - although if too many people did it, the result was somewhat self-defeating!

Always a good way of getting to know your future course mates - although pre-VC10, one of them was the infamous 'Phnom Penh Len'. The ex-Herc rearcrew knew him from old and had a word with their SCSR chums, who made sure that PPL had the best possible exposure to sea survival...:E

[Oldsarbouy]

As a Whirlwind Winchman at Chiv in the 70's Mountbatten Wets were a regular occurence and the source of some splendid sponges until the squippers started cutting them in half!

[NRU74]

Didn't we get a little certificate to put in our log books to prove we'd done it.....I remember part of the prose was 'with fortitude' had completed ...whatever.
Also - what was the 'ad hoc heave ho' helicopter lift method the fish heads used on one of their sea survival course I was (unwillingly) sent on ?I can't remember !

[Saintsman]

I remember being told "If you think you will be sick - take a tablet. If you think you might be sick - take a tablet and if you think you won't be sick - still take a tablet".

Having spent a short period in a life raft, an extended period would not be on my to do list!

I wonder if the civvies now do the recovery?

[charliegolf]

Didn't we get a little certificate to put in our log books to prove we'd done it.....I remember part of the prose was 'with fortitude' had completed ...whatever.
Also - what was the 'ad hoc heave ho' helicopter lift method the fish heads used on one of their sea survival course I was (unwillingly) sent on ?I can't remember !

Was that not the Dunker, NRU?

Saitsman: the old saying was, "First, it's so bad you think you're going to die- then it dawns that you're not going to die!"

CG

[ninja-lewis]

Rhod Gilbert's Work Experience

Sea survival bit begins from 9:44 minutes in.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2jghoc

[Herod]

"First, it's so bad you think you're going to die- then it dawns that you're not going to die!"

Was it Spike Milligan who said "The best cure for seasickness is to sit under a tree"?

[BEagle]

NRU74, wasn't it something like "Has with courage and fortitude undergone the rigours of the course"?

As for the 'Heave-ho', I recall being told that if some antique fishhead relic-of-the-Korean-War Whirlwind turned up and a rope, sorry, a 'sheet' appeared out of the door, it was better to play dead than to risk being hauled up by the matelots...:\

[Pontius Navigator]

For one dinghy drill in the mid-50s we were given a pack which, instead of the normal single-seater, had an inflatable Michelin-man suit. You had to get it on, do up the press-studs (pre-velcro), and AFIR blow the thing up by mouth. You floated like a yellow banana and it was fine if you stayed on your back, but if you rolled over it was b****y difficult to get face-up again. I never saw one again and it's all a long time ago hence the question: did these things ever get put into real dinghy packs?
That was a casualty bag so you were never meant to do it yourself. IIRC the lucky casualty could be tethered to the dinghy

[Pontius Navigator]

"Has with fortitude undergone the rigorous requirements of this school"

On one of my dunks we even had VRT on the course.

After that death immersion suits were only issued for all aircrew if the water was below 4 degrees. Aircrew that routinely used immersion suits would wear them when the water was much warmer.

My third course there was prior to a Cyprus tour so no immersion suits. Our sqn ldr persuaded them to let us wear suits on day 2 "for experience"

Sod' s law, calm sunny day for the single seat drills. We duly jumped in, did the bizz, got everything bailed out, buttoned up, inflated, and then considered job done. Unbuttoned, stretched out and enjoyed the sun.

Unlike JF we were left largely unmolested. We paddled to each other and ended up with all 5 lashed together.

[binbrook]

Herod: Hadn't thought of gutless choppers, and it was in the Med.
PP: I don't think anyone said Casualty Bag, and I was on a Meteor course at the time.

[Basil]

Have to admit cheating in the immersion suit. Wore much more inside than I'd ever have done for real so ended up floating around feeling quite toasty :ok:

Initially had the impermeable two piece with the rubber waist doughnut and then the zip-up which was alleged to be breathable until wet.

[papa_sierra]

As a Crew Chief on 55 Squadron in the early seventies we were required, much against our will, to do the sea survival training at Gorleston, Norfolk with 24 Air Sea Rescue Unit.

This entailed parachute lines and dinghy, off the back of the launch and towed at speed before releasing and getting into the dinghy. One of our number had routed the parachute lines such that when he came to release he was dragged sideways through the water and consumed quite a bit of the North Sea. He eventually released and climbed into his dinghy.

The Whirlwind that was picking us up in turn, developed a fault which required it to return to Great Yarmouth for a check and then returned about an hour later. Our hero had by now been bobbing up and down for over an hour and was presumably feeling a touch unwell.

When the winchman got him connected to himself and the lift started, about halfway up our hero was violently sick all over the grizzled crewman. The pilot being informed on what was on the end of the wire, stopped the lift and lowered the pair of them back into the water like a dunking donut. When clean they were recovered into the helicopter.

All subsequent drills were carried out in the swimming pool.

There is a very fitting memorial on the sea front at Gorleston.
Airfield Research Group - ARG Forum - GORLESTON - 24 Air Sea Rescue Unit Memorial (1/1) (http://www.airfieldresearchgroup.org.uk/forum/norfolk-memorials/548-gorleston-24-air-sea-rescue-unit-memorial)

[sixfootfive]

I can confirm, having found out the hard way, that the 'one size fits all' external immersion suit does not fit you if you are 6'5".

[Basil]

'one size fits all' external immersion suit does not fit you if you are 6'5"
Reminds me of the story cosmonaut, Alexei Leonov, tells of the opposite sort of problem when his space suit expanded so much that he couldn't get back in from a space walk and then his hands slipped out of the gloves so he couldn't manipulate anything.
ISTR that, without referring to mission control, he managed to depressurise his suit a bit and made it back.

Sea survival content? Ummm - the vast sea of space ;)

[bobward]

I did this as a VRT way back in 1980. There were about a dozen of us, given a day's instruction then dumped off a crash boat about five miles off the coast. We were given a multi-seat dinghy to play with, and told that, if the chopper went u/s the boat would come back for us.

Despite it being November, the Channel was a veritable mill pond. After about an hour, we heard the boat coming back, and assumed it was for the pick up. Having opened both doors we were sitting in breathless anticipation when the launch went past, doing warp snot.....

It seems that the trusty crew thought we'd had it too easy and wanted to add a little realism, and three feet of water, to the dinghy. An hour after that, the Sea King arrived. I have to say that, as we went up the wire, it's been the only time in my life I was glad to wrap my arms around another bloke.....

I still have the medical certificate I had to get before hand. I should have known something was afoot when I read that I would ' suffer no ill effects if thrown into sea water under RAF supervised conditions'.....

[Pontius Navigator]

which was alleged to be breathable until wet.

Or the later much used drill ones, windproof when wet and waterproof until wet.

[brakedwell]

There was a more enjoyable option for Britannia and VC10 crews. Get the Dinghy Drill tick out of the way at Gan during a Changi slip. The Marine Craft Section was more than happy to help, especially when female LM's were involved!

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/Returning%20from%20dinghy%20drill_zpsobjm01y1.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/Have%20they%20had%20enough_zpsqmsppnmd.jpg

[John Eacott]

HUET (the Helicopter Underwater Escape Training) is very much a part of many helicopter operations around the globe, from the North Sea and most offshore locations where crew and pax have to update every couple of years, to fire fighting ops in Australia where helicopter pilots have to complete HUET every two years to meet State agency criteria. That came in after a Helitack ditched during a bucket fill and the pilot was rescued by an onlooker, who just happened to be the Chief Minister for the ACT!

Sea Survival, tho', was something best forgotten when we were taken out in an RAF launch and chucked out into Falmouth Bay to bob around in our one man dinghies awaiting a pickup. If you were lucky in a daytime run the worst was a bucket of water being chucked out at you from the SAR helicopter as you put on the winch strop.

But at night, another story. As the junior pilot on the Sea King IFTU I was the obvious choice to be wet winched at night to check out the procedures; and believe me, relying on the sea-cell light as a primary aid to be found isn't confidence inspiring.

Now a bit of background: the previous winch fits (Wessex, Whirlwind, etc) were all single speed controls so a practiced crewman would pay out an extra 6-10 feet of cable and hold it in a loop, ready to be let go as soon as the tea-bag had hold of the strop. This, along with lowering a bit more cable, was meant to ensure that the strop wouldn't be snatched out of the survivor's hands as the helicopter overshot before making a stable hover.

Enter the Sea King with a variable speed, fast winch control. Enter junior pilot grabbing the strop, crewie dropping 10ft of cable plus fast lowering of more cable, most of which finished up well underneath the dinghy. Having been drowned in the downwash of a Sea King in a 30ft hover ('cos that's what we did in the Wessex) I had no idea where the cable was and simply gave a thumbs up when in the strop, which was then raised: except it went under the dinghy, three times around me and pulled me down before up!

Procedures modified the next day (that's what IFTU is for, after all) and the hover raised to 40ft plus no more bights of cable by the crewman ;)

[Old-Duffer]

TTN was less lucky than myself at Kai Tak. I actually helped teach drills to Cathay Pacific aircrew and hence was involved when we took them to sea for the day. After the serious business was concluded, the ladies remained in the sun in their swimsuits and we had a jolly good lunch in the boats courtesy of CPA.

I also played the 'mad passenger' during the evacuation drills. This was done when a Convair 880 was due a deep maintenance at HKAECO and hence all the slides etc had to be removed and 'pulled'. I had to sit waiting and then suddenly jump up and rush about shouting and when I got to the door had to try to push back inside and be a general nuisance - not hard you might say!

At Mountbatten in May 1966 I was on the sea survival course when Master Pilot Howarth died in the water. Lots of shortcomings identified after that. The best bit about the single seat drills was that the dinghy pack for those on rotary wing aircraft was worn as a backpack and with a bit of practice, it could be unclipped and brought round to the chest almost before one had hit the water - I never did get it to 'pop' the right way up though.

Old Duffer

[Pontius Navigator]

On drills though, I read the leaflet on Civair on ditching and life raft. It would seem the approved drill is exit aircraft, enter water and hold on to the escape slide. When you, and 40 others are all holding on, raft released and off you float singing Underneath the Chestnut Tree as one by one you succumb to hypothermia.

No dinghies and no canopy so a realistic assumption that no one would survive a ditching and if you did you probably wouldn't survive too be rescued.
http://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/27572/what-are-the-safety-benefits-of-life-rafts-on-planes

[Janda]

I did one drill at Mountbatten during the second week of January 1982. It was the start of my Shack AEW Course. The crew that included the new Sqn Boss flew from Inverness to Heathrow and then should have flown to Plymouth. However, the weather was so bad that flights into Plymouth were cancelled. We were then put on the night train down to blizzard hit Devon. Got off the train and straight into the classroom. That night Plymouth got completely cut off due to the severe snowstorms. We were all convinced that there was no way we would do the practical. We maintained that optimism all the way to the launch which we then loaded and set sail. It was so cold on the launch that one of the crew (pilot) went down with hypothermia. We reached the drop off point and those of us that had opted for single seat dinghy did the drag behind boat thing and then into dinghy. And what a surprise as it was much warmer in the water and then the dinghy than on the launch. Those that chose multi seat did not fair so well. Firstly, the new Sqn Boss elected himself to right the dinghy and promptly got stuck underneath. And then half succumbed to the mal de mare. They also spent longer in the dinghy than those of us in the singles. We all deserved the certificates after that.

[Alan Mills]

When I was on 204 at Ballykelly in May '67 we did a dinghy drill from Portrush, The AEO (GB) junped from the Pinnace into the dinghy, but the rest of us had to swim for it in flying suits. The Atlantic is very cold in May, but we all made it to the dinghy apart from the captain (LR) who was a poor swimmer. The Nav and AEO junped in to help him and as they were soon very cold I also jumped in to help. We then were zoomed past by the pinnace which thought that we were having extra training, and wanted to make the water more disturbed! The dinghy had no rubber ring and line, and no sea anchor, and drifted away faster than we could swim. We were picked up by the pinnace after they had picked the rest of the crew from the dinghy, and were a sad shivering foursome, only stopping shaking after a few whiskies in the pub in Portrush. A big difference from the previous drill which had been from Aden!

[2Planks]

Far better to do them at Akronelli than out of Grimsby.


Wasn't a Lightning Sqn declared non op years back when most of them caught conjunctivitis? From then on the boat trip took you out of the Humber up to Hornsea.


I thought pulling in the sea anchor to make sure you were first in the mechanical palm tree was 'CSRO in Confidence' ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

Went to Grimsby twice. Sadly the weather was too foggy so it was cancelled. As I lived at Coningsby when at Finningley I would have spent the whole day driving round Lincolnshire so had no option except take the day off.

[ChudleighBitmad]

1964 when I was on 511 Sqn. Oddly enough, our Eng also knew every pub from Lyneham to Plymouth. In '68 I was transferred to VC10s and did the Brize to Plymouth run, this time with a 5 litre demijohn full of sloe gin - don't remember that trip....

[oldmansquipper]

Had the pleasure of helping the setting up the first F-35 Post Ejection Survival Training (yes.....so good we named it....PEST) �� @ NSTI Pensacola a few years back.

tough job but someone had had to do it.

Still going on around the world I gather.

[Wensleydale]

http://www.seawatchfoundation.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/IMG_6049-1024x682.jpg

Remember when we used to carry out dinghy drills from Burghead in the Moray Firth? There are some interesting visitors in the waters these days.

[ancientaviator62]

This is how D/D was done on 48 Sqn at Changi.

[ancientaviator62]

We also enjoyed the services of the rotary crew.

[Pontius Navigator]

We also enjoyed the services of the rotary crew.

As it happens we had a Coastguard Casevac off our cruise ship yesterday. After joining port side the winchman was lowered on to the ship midships, then a stretcher followed. Next a double lift as the husband was taken off. There was a further delay with the helo holding off, probably whilst the casualty was prepared, and then stretched and crewman hoisted and departed. Very slick.

[Herod]

Nice picture of a nice helicopter there!

[ancientaviator62]

Glad you liked it. Here is another, only thumbnails seem to appear but if clicked they do upscale.

[Herod]

I trained on the Whirlwind. After going to the Wessex, I often wondered "single-engine over water? Single-engine over a boat?" Mad, I tell you. Another nice picture though; thanks.

[76fan]

Herod. If you think that's mad how about being told to take up a single engined Wessex with a photographer slung underneath (in a cargo net) so that he could use a fisheye lens to take an uninterrupted vertical view of the ship?

[ancientaviator62]

Last of the 48 Sqn pics. Glad you liked them. It does seem a long time ago !

[Cornish Jack]

Herod - " Single-engine over a boat?" Mad, I tell you "
Maybe, but even more interesting when teaching student WinchOps with the pinnace outside Holyhead harbour!! Knowing just when to jump in and take over with a timely "Up,Up,Up!!" was a matter of fine judgement! Definitely got it wrong once and left the evidence for the world to see ... a Whirlwind 10 main wheel tyre imprint on the pinnace mast button!::eek::O Whirlwind S&R still the very best years of the 34 plus total :D