FZ 981 crashes in Rostov on Don Russia

[WYOMINGPILOT]

Russia airplane crash: Airliner crashes on approach to Russian airport, officials say - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/18/europe/russia-plane-crash/index.html)
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/a6-fdn/#922b3bd

[jack schidt]

Seriously sad if reported as fact. My heartfelt condolences to all crew and passengers..



55 pax and 7 crew onboard, RIP

Apparently just left of and before the runway(@100m or so from threshold) is the accident point in supposedly poor weather after a second approach. Crew had been circling for over 2 hours trying to land. A video of the supposed incident from CCTV shows a higher than normal looking rate of descent. No emergency was ever declared.

FlyD and Boeing to investigate the causes.

I request that everyone respects this accident in this ME forum and does not let this turn into a "I told you so" about the operating ethos.

J

[WYOMINGPILOT]

urrr 182330z 24012mps 3900 -shra sct019 bkn036cb ovc100 06/03 q0999 ws r22 r22/290046 tempo 25015g20mps 1000 shra br sct003 bkn020cb rmk qfe741/0989

[DCS99]

The playback on
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/a6-fdn/#922b3bd

Shows transmission stops at 2275 feet inside the fence after what looks like a GA.

Terrible...

[Contact Approach]

Curious as to why it remained in the hold for so long and didn't divert.

C.A

[Eau de Boeing]

Perhaps we should ease up on the vitriol towards the company and rostering practises for a few hours.

There may be family, friends and colleagues just waking up to this news.

Thoughts to everyone affected, I hope by some minor miracle there are some survivors.

[dubaigong]

Very horrible news for all involved and their families... RIP
I only hope that a full and thorough investigation will be performed and that the usual crew mistakes will not be pointed out without digging further to also find out what could have been done to avoid this in ALL level of the company structure.

[SOPS]

Unfortunately, I don't think anyone has survived.

[Desert Dawg]

My very heartfelt condolences to the families and loved ones who are affected by this crash.

A very bad, and sad, day for the aviation families of the UAE.

R.I.P.

[WYOMINGPILOT]

If this audio is authentic they were holding due to windshear reports.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4m0FcsLnEg

[Kamelchaser]

On the tower audio, wind was reported as gusting 35kts, vis 3,500m in showers, with previous reports of moderate windshear.

The crew reported going around, and crashed shortly after. The impact video shows an impact angle and speed only slightly less than another 737 incident in the same area in 2013 s://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan_Airlines_Flight_363

It would seem to be vertigo caused by rapid acceleration in night, IMC..perhaps even the additional acceleration from a windshear go-around. It's happened plenty of times before unfortunately.

[north flyer]

Fellow professionals,

Please let's not speculate on what happened or ever second guess what the crew did or did not do, leave that to the talking heads.

All I know is that nobody as of right now knows what happened, lets just hope that it is a open, honest and fair investigation.

[nolimitholdem]

I find the repeated pleading for lack of comment about the "operating ethos", "easing up on the company vitriol" and so on, to be far more damning than actually mentioning potential employer-induced contributing factors.

Which, incidentally, no one actually had. Which makes me wonder exactly how many management spin doctors may be working here. Shhhhhh...

Don't speculate? It's an aviation rumour forum, for gawd's sake. Who wouldn't want to try and find out what happened here?!? Has nothing to do with respect, rather prevention of a recurrence.

[White Knight]

For once NLH I agree with you.

Very sad for my colleagues on the north side of DXB. The holes need serious and OPEN investigation!!!

[Kamelchaser]

Northflyer I think you're naive to think professional pilots won't want to discuss what may have gone wrong..it's in our nature.

This forum isn't just for leaving sincere notes of condolence (and no disrespect meant to those that do, or indeed to the victims themselves)

This incident has serious ramifications for all...it's a manoeuvre that we all practise in the sim every training session. But...the sim doesn't reproduce the effects of severe vertigo..the only time you'll experience that is when you do one of these in real life.

Raising awareness of the dangers of this manoeuvre is exactly what I'm pushing here. If that saves another aircraft before the official report comes out in a year's time then I'm happy to put forward my thoughts based on 35 years of military/civilian experience..especially having experienced this myself on a number of occasions.

There's a big difference between highlighting what may have gone wrong versus starting to lay blame for things that we can't be sure about.

[777-200LR]

I agree with Kamelchaser, at least we speculate with a degree of experience and professionalism, just turn on any news channel right now and listen to the BS info they are giving...the best one I've heard yet is "if pilots align with the runway too early on the approach during these crosswind landings, they could end up hundreds of meters off the runway centreline"

[alwayzinit]

Very sad news. RIP guys and sincere condolences to all next of kin.

The video available online already shows a very steep descent path and what appears to be "flames" on the right side. Mrs Alwayz has just smsed me from the UK. The press have already apportioned blame it would seem :ugh: guess where?!

There but for the Grace..................................

[tomuchwork]

Sad news. Hard to discuss without knowing the facts like aircraft history, pilot training history and background(used to low vis ops or just trained but not so often used it), and especially from the work threads here in the ME part - how many hours have they previously flown(week/month/year) and which quality of rest they had before this flight.

We do not know anything about that(well, some may) and for this reason we will have to wait for the actual results of the investigation from the RUSSIANS(don't thrust the GCAA as well with that).

RIP guys.

[ExDubai]

Very sad news. R.I.P. guys

[north flyer]

Kamelchaser,

I don't disagree with raising awareness of the dangers of vertigo and this is as good a time as any.

Like you, I have 35 plus years of military/civilian experience and I am not naive to think that pilots won't discuss what went wrong, it is our nature.

All I am saying is that it could be one of an unknown number of things that could have caused this accident and I have learned from the past that whenever "I" think I know what may have caused an accident, I have been wrong.

When I was flying C-130's, we were doing practice G/A's from minimums in VFR conditions and the #3 engine went into reverse, by the skill of the flight engineer, who shut down the engine while we were in a 30 to 40 degree bank a couple hundred feet above the runway were we able to come back around and land, had it been in IFR conditions and we crashed, would it have been vertigo, pilot error, the weather? So once again, all I am saying is that we don't know what happened.

What I do take issue with is any "professional pilot" second guessing what another crew has done, like, "why did they hold so long and not divert".

That is what I was getting at, next time I will be more blunt.

Condolences to the crew and their passengers.

[ExpatBrat]

This has to be the worst type of headline for any of us and our families to wake up to. My wife cried.


Heartfelt condolences to all the families and friends involved.


It's always sad that the best that can come out of these tragedies is that maybe we'll learn something that helps prevent it from happening again.

[pilotguy1222]

Kamelchaser is spot on.

Always seems so much more of a shock when it hits close to home. I am just sitting here stunned.

May the crew and passengers RIP. Thoughts to all affected by this tragedy.

[buggerall]

Very sad very painful. I know some FZ drivers (even neighbhors)

I have some serious comments on how this will affect EK. but for another day

[Spoogie]

The video they are showing shows some similarity to this video of Tatarstan B735 at Kazan in Nov 17th 2013.

https://youtu.be/vKHpUEHY2tI

Very sad!

[Slash787]

Very Sad news, I hope we get more info regarding this.

Rest in Peace

[Mike_1]

I read the Aviation Herald about the crash of Flydubai

Crash: Flydubai B738 at Rostov on Don on Mar 19th 2016, missed runway after holding for 2 hours (http://avherald.com/h?article=495997e2&opt=0)

[Emma Royds]

This is a dark day for us in the aviation industry and especially in Dubai. There is a degree of camaraderie amongst expats who are in the same industry and the aviation industry in Dubai is no exception. Any of us could have been standing beside any of the crew whilst stood in the queue in Spinneys a few days ago without even knowing it. The same could be said with any of the passengers whilst waiting in a queue in one of the malls. In Dubai, you don't need to go far to find someone who may know one of the crew or knows someone who did. When viewing it in this context, our fragility as simple humans is highlighted.

Can I also say a big Bravo to my fellow Gulf based aviation professionals for keeping this thread respectful and dignified, which is of course how it should be. Some of the 'hot air' that has been posted elsewhere on this website, in connection to this accident is crass in nature, with individuals commenting on matters that they appear to be poor qualified to do so.

My condolences to the loved ones and friends of those that perished.

[Old King Coal]

For what it's worth, I lost a good friend in that crash. His name was Javier and he was the SCCM onboard.

I'd known Javier for many, many, years, both in Astraeus, then Zoom, and latterly at FlyDubai.

My endearing memories of Javier are that he was a consummate professional, charming, hardworking, and always very good fun! Passengers loved him, and so too did the crew. Javier was the epitome of what I would call a 'total aviation person' (he loved aviation and he loved people). He was such a genuinely lovely bloke and this is such a tragic loss.

RIP my friend. :{

[USav8or]

Does anyone know the link to this crowdfunding campaign? There are no links or even email addresses on the Gulfnews website? TX


Pilot starts crowdfunding campaign for families of crew members | GulfNews.com (http://m.gulfnews.com/news/uae/emergencies/pilot-starts-crowdfunding-campaign-for-families-of-crew-members-1.1693468)

[pumpkin]

https://crowdfunding.justgiving.com/FZ981

[QCM]

RIP all of them...very sad times...

[tomuchwork]

Just read in a European newspaper - flight experience(i assume total) of the flight crew was 5700 hours???? BS, right?

[pilotguy1222]

Yes. BS. They each had close to 6000 hrs. So over 11,000hrs worth of experience.

[tomuchwork]

Thanks, I was wondering when I saw this number. Bloody newspapers.

[Dubaian]

Much more discussion in the PPRune Main Rumours & News forum.
Starts here http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/576325-b-738-crash-russia-rostov-don.html


Not all so respectful.

[QCM]

Please avoid this forum,more than disrespectful...full of guys who teach the birds how to fly...

[selbstflugel]

Two outstanding questions: ! Why did it plummet, and at such steep glideslope and high speed?
2. What factor was so vital in landing at this particular- 'out in the sticks' airport to the captain, that he spent 2 hrs circling, and then two attempts to land in lousy weather?
I.E. Who, or what was aboard, so vital, that necessitated this desperate act- as opposed to simply abandoning and landing elsewhere?

[Luibar]

My sincere condolences to all families. It is indeed a very sad moment.:(

RIP

[Gate_15L]

Please avoid this forum,more than disrespectful...full of guys who teach the birds how to fly...

Your not kidding QCM, that forum is full of every special form of retard and uninformed blowhard known to modern aviation....

I'm just waiting for Geoffrey Thomas to reprint all of it into the media as his own legitimate source... :ugh:

[USav8or]

https://crowdfunding.justgiving.com/FZ981

Thank you.

[blumetal]

As a frequent flyer and not a pilot, my question is: Why circle a 737-8 for 2 hours instead of diverting?

[Talparc]

After the lates E Mail from STC,
looks like they are scared of leaking information.

Is there something to hide?

@ infreedom

maybe your excellent post has something to do with that?

Quote STC:
please avoid posting any insensitive information on our internal or external social media channels. If you have any serious concerns, please write to me ..

[Iver]

Some updated news about the Captain:

http://m.gulfnews.com/news/uae/emergencies/flydubai-crash-pilot-was-about-to-quit-airline-1.1693536

RIP to all involved!!!!

[fatbus]

Sad, both pilots wives are expecting babies. ( gulf news)

[Monarch Man]

To be fair Talparc, the email from STC is exactly what I would expect from any sitting CEO in a situation such as this, it is in my estimation nothing other than a request for a bit of discretion at a sensitive time.
In respect of this accident I'm sure that every aspect will be thoroughly investigated, including the crews rosters and previous experience.
RIP to all those unfortunate souls.

[BigGeordie]

I agree with Monarch Man, he has not asked people to avoid posting sensitive information (ie secrets) but insensitive information which might upset the families involved. Seems reasonable to me, but he'd better not look at Rumours and News.....

[Rotating Bacon]

@bluemetal
as a pilot I am asking myself the same question

[Jet II]

As a frequent flyer and not a pilot, my question is: Why circle a 737-8 for 2 hours instead of diverting?

i think the argument is that if they divert the crew run out of hours and the aircraft gets stuck in Russia overnight.

[north flyer]

Careful guys, this is a public forum.

Second guessing what the crew did or did not do, is a place you do not want to go.

TC and Fly Dubai management have done a good job so far, remember, this is the first time for them.

[The Outlaw]

To the pilots of Fly Dubai,

If you feel that there are issues which violate safe flying practices then you owe it to yourselves, your family, the people and the families of those who suffered losses in this tragic event, to report any shortcomings to the appropriate channels. Otherwise this will continue.

Speculation on this or any other forum would be inappropriate at this time.

[jack schidt]

I honestly don't think that making specific anonymous statements here about FD would be the most appropriate thing to do. If you feel strongly about an issue then there must be more appropriate channels through which to communicate your concerns. However, I had a "diversion" after a prolonged hold a few years back. I thought it might be sensible to share my experience in the hope that all fellow airmen never feel any pressure but to do what you think is most correct for the safest outcome of such a situation. I am certainly not implying that this fatal tragedy was the result of running out of fuel or that management pressures prevented a diversion. The reason I am writing this is to help encourage others to think about what they would do if they found themselves in a similar situation and what their decision and outcome would be.

As an M/E pilot of well over a decade (operating under the same GCAA) some years ago, I was called via SATCOM by the company and advised not to divert to my best "considered" diversion option after I informed the company via ACARS. Of course, time and fuel was not on my side and my decision to direct the aircraft to "my chosen" point of landing was well thought through and the safest thing to do, even if not commercially the best option for the company.

I was subsequently called in to explain my thoughts and actions throughout the flight at critical stages which I subsequently did. I was just above minimum fuel, under time pressure as well as "other pressures" and did what I had to do as a pilot to get the aircraft safely onto the ground.

This is not just the ME operations, it is global commercial pressure on pilots to keep the show in the road. Company's are always stressing that the first priority is SAFETY, as a pilot of over 30 years flying experience, I would suggest that this isn't always so.

We as pilots are the ones who direct the aircraft when it is under our control, us, just us in the cockpit, no one else has the final say or ability to do otherwise. Information from the company operations is just that, information and certainly not orders. No one in an office can ever be fully aware of a developing situation in a cockpit the way the trained professionals can. Seek advice and let it be that, we as pilots know what's best for the aircraft as we are staking our own life on the outcome of our actions. Always do what YOU think is the right thing to do at all times and then debrief the outcome subsequently if needs be.

Fly safe and once again a very very sad trajedy. BBC reporting the CVR and Black Box might be too damaged to be useful. I certainly hope that lessons can be learnt from this sad loss to help prevent further hardship.

J

[notapilot15]

north flyer

While management seems to be getting the benefit of doubt, there are lot of reports and posts suggesting crew's fault. Sad isn't it.

[evansb]

selbstflugel quote "...out in the sticks airport..." How is this a fair, accurate or a relevant comment regarding this crash?..

[north flyer]

notapilot,

Yes it is sad, but it is always the same, blame the pilots, especially when they are not able to defend themselves.

I expect the talking heads who have to fill the void of when there is no information to "speculate" and it is always easiest to blame the pilots, unless the reason is totally obvious like the shoot down of MH17.

There is a good book about an accident at my old airline, "The mystery of flight 427: inside a crash investigation" by Bill Adair.

It is about the rudder handover problem that the B737 had and to what lengths Boeing went to put the blame on pilot error, after years of pilots from my old airline and ALPA (the Union), the truth about the rudder problem was proven.

All parties involved in this accident will now circle the wagons and try as hard as they can to put the blame on any other party to protect their interests, it will become very brutal.

As far a I can see, there is no group to protect the pilots, one of the problems in this part of the world of no unions. That is why I keep saying not to second guess the crew and add to the void.

If anyone knows who will be representing the pilots besides FZ/EK, please let me know.

[masalama]

notapilot,

Yes it is sad, but it is always the same, blame the pilots, especially when they are not able to defend themselves.


As far a I can see, there is no group to protect the pilots, one of the problems in this part of the world of no unions. That is why I keep saying not to second guess the crew and add to the void.

If anyone knows who will be representing the pilots besides FZ/EK, please let me know.

Yes , very sad indeed. We need to realise that when we leave a unionised airline to join a non-Union one in the ME for the pay and perks , it is difficult to put a price tag on having representation at an airline. Yes, there are many issues with unions and politics etc. but I would rather have one looking into the welfare and T& C's than none at all.
God help their families find some way to cope with this terrible tragedy.

Masalama😞

[olster]

Very sad day for UAE aviation. RIP to the crew.

[olster]

j/s - it is not strictly a global phenomenon to be 'told' where to divert. My previous airline - British, unionised and evolved in terms of industrial issues. As captain if you diverted you went where you decided was optimum using whatever DM model that suited the situation. As I remember no commercial pressure but an expectation to make a sensible decision. You were not required to liase or ask for advice. I agree: no speculation from me here on the catastrophe in Rostov. Let's see what transpires with the investigation. Tragic nevertheless.

[Saltaire]

Glider 7, #50

A very telling post from the inside and frankly not surprising. I have seen the FO's roster. Not good. The airline will likely turn a blind eye and try to focus elsewhere, but its likely to be a significant part of the swiss cheese. I hope the real truth and all the factors are told whatever they might be. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[glofish]

To be fair Talparc, the email from STC is exactly what I would expect from any sitting CEO in a situation such as this, it is in my estimation nothing other than a request for a bit of discretion at a sensitive time.

Allow me to disagree, MM. I have never read any such thing in a first statement of a CEO to his employees. TC knows what is at stake and he is obviously very nervous. Therefore the veiled threat, at least that's the way most employees take it.

In respect of this accident I'm sure that every aspect will be thoroughly investigated, including the crews rosters and previous experience.

I admire your faith in airline investigations ..... not.
Unfortunately i have very closely witnessed a fatal accident some time ago and the final report and findings were very revealing and disappointing to insiders.
Industry and political/national interests are well protected, believe me, and i am talking about a place in the western hemisphere.
Here we talk about two involved nations with a quite different attitude towards the truth ......

[Sky7]

https://www.rt.com/news/336514-flydubai-pilots-fatigue-crash/

It seems an ex flydubai Captain spilled the beans..?

[Alphaprot]

I admire your faith in airline investigations ..... not.

Yep, spot on, the investigation into the Melbourne accident was by all (reliable accounts) rejected three times by the Airline and Regulator until the FATIGUE issue was removed.

Rumour has it that the FD Capt during his exit interview said that his reason for leaving was the fatiguing rosters.

[notapilot15]

If this was a GCAA investigation very simple, final report comes out 4 years later with inconclusive root cause. This is based on last few masterpieces produced by GCAA.

Unfortunately this is a Russia led investigation, so things work slightly different. Russia can submit their wish list to UAE. Final report will be based on the response. Or we will have two reports with different conclusions.

I am still kicking myself on how GCAA scores so high in ICAO audits, what merit ICAO sees in GCAA no one else sees?? Biggest mystery in modern aviation.

[fo4ever]

Yep, spot on, the investigation into the Melbourne accident was by all (reliable accounts) rejected three times by the Airline and Regulator until the FATIGUE issue was removed.

Rumour has it that the FD Capt during his exit interview said that his reason for leaving was the fatiguing rosters.

Rumour on the Captain not correct !

[mach decimal 83]

https://www.rt.com/news/336514-flydubai-pilots-fatigue-crash/

[Desert Dawg]

@glofish

I agree with you 100% (sadly....)

Just ****ty business man.... Just ****ty.

[Airmann]

If you think that the final report will be impartial just because the investigation is being conducted by the Russians you don't understand International Politics.

Russia could easily just ask for "favours" from the UAE in return for a less damning report. The UAE aviation sector (especially that of Dubai) is a major part of the economy, it will be seriously damaging to the image of EK and FZ to have a serious critical investigation questioning their practices. Right now Russia is in a bit of a corner politically and could easily use this report as a bargaining chip.

[Emma Royds]

The UAE needs Russia more than the other way round.

All those flights that link Dubai to Russia are generally bringing in Russians into the UAE who are going on holiday or who live and work in the UAE. It's the UAE economy that benefits the most out of the two.

In terms of trade, the value that the UAE brings to Russia is fairly insignificant in relative terms.

[in freedom]

Not to forget that the UAE is one of the major US outposts in the Gulf which probably doesn't help their popularity with the Russians

[in freedom]

Does anybody know if the F/O got pulled out on his standby on Friday, 11 March ? That would have made a significant difference on how well he was rested.


My deep respect goes to the whistleblower who has informed the world about the likely truth before it gets hidden in an eternal "investigation". Nobody can bring them back and this is the only thing we can do for them. Rest in Peace.

[too_much]

Anyone else notice that all the ASR and CSR have been removed from EFOS? I guess to stop more leaked ASR to the press...

[what-to-do]

They can remove what they like. They (FZ) would be pretty stupid to think that some of us don't have copies on our computers.....

[too_much]

in_freedom - re standby duty on 11th was not called out...

[dubaigong]

Spot on what-to-do , I have almost all the ASR's copied for a few years plus plenty of mails and memos that I kept just for that to avoid those smart guys at the top to escape their responsibilities by saying they did not know...
It is too easy to take the money and glory that go with the position and then refuse or deny the responsibilities that goes with it...

[jack schidt]

EK removed the briefing timeline sheet used by crews after checkin. This was done immediately after the WSJ article a year or 2 back. Crews were then "and" are now still working longer before the duty with regards to the FTL, 1 hour credit is still given even though checkin is somewhat an earlier requirement than the given 1 hour. Post flight duties often see the crew leaving the aircraft an hour later after chock on time which is logged as time off duty. This might all seem fine but, when already working above maximum FTLs, this additional hour (plus) per duty is never logged as maximum annual duty limitation. When pilots (not all) have been at maximum hours, they have sometimes been put into the sim for supposed "ground" duties and this work is even more tiring and is not considered part of a pilots annual GCAA FTLs.


Not having a rant or otherwise, just saying how it is and 4K pilots would agree that this is the case. Hours spent at work, in a tube at 6k + cabin altitude, over time zones spanning many hours different from home base, with 24hrs rest when day is night and night is day, doesn't mean a crew are well rested. The corporate greed of today's world is driving safety standards down in my opinion. Like the minimum wage stated by political law in some countries, FTL and its limits has become a target for company rostering departments as opposed to a guide for maximum crew duty.

J

[Mr Angry from Purley]

What are the regs at Fly Dubai on early pages nights? Based on cap371 or no limits

[framer]

My deep respect goes to the whistleblower who has informed the world about the likely truth before it gets hidden in an eternal "investigation". Nobody can bring them back and this is the only thing we can do for them. Rest in Peace.
Well said. I agree totally.

[in freedom]

Latest RT update:

https://www.rt.com/news/336823-pilots-respond-flydubai-leak-fatigue/

[SOPS]

Whoops, looks like someone has let the genie out of the bottle.

[motley flight crue]

I wish I was a genie. Sleeping in a lantern would be better than the EK 777 CRC

[Itsaspade]

Seriously sad if reported as fact. My heartfelt condolences to all crew and passengers..



55 pax and 7 crew onboard, RIP

Apparently just left of and before the runway(@100m or so from threshold) is the accident point in supposedly poor weather after a second approach. Crew had been circling for over 2 hours trying to land. A video of the supposed incident from CCTV shows a higher than normal looking rate of descent. No emergency was ever declared.

FlyD and Boeing to investigate the causes.

I request that everyone respects this accident in this ME forum and does not let this turn into a "I told you so" about the operating ethos.

J
There is a problem commenting on their operating ethos when the public's lives are endangered by their ethos?

[ExDubai]

Whoops, looks like someone has let the genie out of the bottle.
This could get nasty if other news channels jump on this train.

[SOPS]

I bet you they don't.

[ExDubai]

I bet you they don't.
EK 407 jumps into my mind.....

[ibrahim_gezici]

i was on duty that day when crash happened and i couldnt believe my eyes what i read from news. Fly dubai was our client in turkey we were representative company on behalf of fly dubai in turkey and maybe that crew how many time came turkey. It's really hard to accept that.

RIP for all of them.

[dubaigong]

It seems that the publishing of the Flydubai roster for next month is delayed...
Could it be related to the fatigue problem leaking in the press ?

[Itsaspade]

In many places(countries), the aviation regulations have degenerated into a competition by the operator on how to get around the law to increase profits at any cost, especially the lives of fare paying passengers.

There are rules, varying quite alarmingly from country to country, which are intended to govern the rostering of aviation crews. However, no other aspect of the aviation industry receives as much attention from it's managers (up to CEO and COO) as that of crew rosters and how to circumvent the regulations or at worst steer the operation into a 'grey area'.

This is practiced as the holy grail of maximizing profits, crew rostering. Here we can make our biggest profit gains.
The regulations are a set with maximum limits set. Here is 'problem' number one. The limits are maximums. The operators however see these as target limits, there to be 'achieved'.

In addition, there are extensions on these limits to accommodate the operator should the schedule go over by a minute and up to 3 hours if need be. Use of the 3rd hour of extension normally requires a close cooperation with the local civil aviation authority, to help.
These over extensions and under rest limits are all "to be used to the maximum".

One of the basic deviations from the law which cannot easily be traced, is the time when the crew are expected (not required) to report for a flight. This can be anything from 15 minutes earlier to 5 or 6 hours earlier in the case of charter operations to accommodate the client arriving late. One then only enters the start time afterwards as the required time, allowing you to still have your original maximum working period even though you might already have been on duty for 6 hours!
Bear in mind, loads and loads of people worldwide work difficult hours and all through the night. However, how many of these occupations can result in the near instant death of scores to hundreds of people? Aircraft crews and nuclear power plant operators and a small handful of other occupations.
It may sound callous, but human lives are not in any way a deterrent for the profit requirements of airlines/air operators. Bearing in mind that some time ago already a survey proved that all current operators could run at a profit if all of them just increased each leg they fly by an amount of $5.

But the free market allows us to undercut each other to sink the opposition and thus take their operations over.

Hence, the absolute mercenary attitude to business. That, includes your and your loved ones lives for profit.

The industries presence and foresight into regulations is what has resulted in the international standards of limitations on flight deck crew being drawn up and implemented. Note the strict limits on for argument sake, truck drivers in say Germany. Far more stringent than air crews.
The bottom line is, until the fare paying passengers come forward and demand proper flight time limitations for air crew, it will not happen.
Currently the air operators can draw up work schedules for airline AND charter crews which allow for pilots to fly airplanes whilst tired. A case in point; the English word fatigue has been 'analyzed' and given certain defining characteristics. e.g. certain levels of body chemicals (cortisols) when fatigued is required for you to be fatigued, otherwise you cannot invoke fatigue as a reason to say you are unsafe to fly because you are tired.

Now we are not even mentioning living conditions/lifestyles. If that is mentioned, you will be targeted for troublemaking. So now you can easily have pilots flying airplanes who hate being there. Not a very healthy situation.

Once again, the air law is and has to be written in human blood before it is adhered to. More accidents will be happening whilst air operators manipulate the flight time limits to achieve greater and greater profits.

[notapilot15]

dubaigong

They wouldn't tolerate this kind of unprofessional behavior, probably fixing the system to identify future leaks.

Also probably talking to wearable fitness product vendors, so pilots can be always monitored. Bracelet will decide if you pilots are fatigued or not.

[BeCareful]

Solution coming....

Anyone caught complaining to fellow crew will be tarred and feathered and subject to disciplinary action. If you talk to the media, you will be labeled a threat and you will be arrested under slander law, imprisoned and re-educated to retract your statement and start telling the Company-provided truth.

As always, know that the Company cares about you and will do its utmost to ensure you get your profit share.

[fatbus]

With increased attrition you might see a few ex EK blowing the whistle .

[nolimitholdem]

EK is next. It's not if, it's when. And why not? They're on precisely the same path that led FZ to where it is.

At a management washup (remember those?) I point-blank asked the A380 DCP, that if EK had an accident/incident and the ensuing investigation identified fatigue as a precipitating factor, how would EK explain the hundreds of fatigue reports and ASR's about fatigue?

He had no answer. Maybe they just toss them in the bin, I don't know.

I think the saddest thing about the FZ accident is the sheer predictability of it, and the inevitability of EK's own approaching "moment in the sun".

[Bindair Dundat]

No question, the Indian bean counters at EK know exactly how many hull losses the airline could withstand and this is priced into the EK growth model. Their cost/benefit analysis of working their crews like slaves is endorsed and fully accounted for.
Their corporate counsel and PR spin doctors are well rehearsed in exactly what they will say in the the worst case scenario and has a plan fully in place for damage control. It will be contained.
It's hard to say whether some 'leaked' crew rosters from flydubai will find traction in the greater media and cause any concern or changes.
One can only hope that, god forbid, if anything ever happened to an EK flight, so much ill will has been created between the airline and former employees that damning evidence would reign down like a **** storm all over management. Lord knows, crews employed there are powerless to effect change.......gut wrenching.

[Talparc]

Great stuff Itsaspade and nolimitholdem, you guys are so spot on!

Bindair Dundat:

about 2 years ago I attended a meeting hosted by AS about Airline Risk Management and it was
happily announced that we now can even afford 2 hull losses.
The biggest damage to them is just the loss of reputation the rest is taken care by the insurance.

[in freedom]

They seem to have calculated for such an accident. Remember that they were easily able to get over the WSJ article. Check-in scam continues. Even though all the Western Authorities have all the evidence. How are they better than the GCAA ??? Money makes the world go round.

Thats's why I propose going through the German Pilot Union. They don't sell airplanes to the UAE. They are fellow pilots and probably as good a partner as you are going to find.

Wait, that sad unavoidable crash happened in Russia. Apparently there is no compelling reason for Russia to cover everything up and make sure the Sheikhs don't get offended. I am sure that can change. But for now we have an unexpected Ally. Maybe the bean counters missed that one. I guess that the Russians can at least up the price for silence dramatically. They have closed their airspace before.

[Talparc]

Newest Report from RT

https://www.rt.com/news/336903-flydubai-pilot-fatigue-report/

[CTWO]

Former colleague of FlyDubai captain tells of clues to crash | The National (http://www.thenational.ae/uae/former-colleague-of-flydubai-captain-tells-of-clues-to-crash)

....just wait....money is a very powerful tool..

[glofish]

With all these testimonies of pushing pilots to the limits, repression if fatigue is reported, let's have a quick look into the recommendations of the BEA in the aftermath of the Germanwings tragedy.

It is talk of mental health there, we all know, but extrapolating it to mental and physical fatigue and stress with potential detrimental financial and career consequences at not so kind airlines, especially in the ME where they pretend to be EASA compliant, leave no doubt about its applicability.

IATA encourage its Member Airlines to implement measures to mitigate the socio-economic risks related to pilots’ loss of licence for medical reasons. [Recommendation FRAN-2016-015]

EASA ensure that European operators promote the implementation of peer support groups to provide a process for pilots, their families and peers to report and discuss personal and mental health issues, with the assurance that information will be kept in-confidence in a just-culture work environment, and that pilots will be supported as well as guided with the aim of providing them with help, ensuring flight safety and allowing them to return to flying duties, where applicable. [Recommendation FRAN-2016-021]

Hypocritical :ugh:

[fatbus]

I truly think the EK brand could not survive a hull loss. I don't think senior management listen to the Indian bean counter WRT hull loss. The brand is very fragile , growing fast and needing that growth. Only time will tell with FZ but Gulf Air suffered badly.

[nolimitholdem]

I agree with you completely, fatbus. (What IS going on?! Is the end of the world truly nigh? ;) ) I have been at a carrier that suffered a hull loss - not on the scale of a A380 or B777, granted - and I cannot overstate the devastation to the company it entailed: the psychological damage to the staff aside, the brand damage was not survivable. The company became a shadow of itself (GF anyone?) and eventually, folded.

The problem is, I think that EK management truly believe their own bs and think that they can quantify such a horrific event, and discount it accordingly. Not to mention pretty much all of the Costa-dwellers are only looking to stuff as much into their own pockets before the inevitable. Pretty sure when it happens they will be nowhere to be seen.

[rude not too]

The BBC is now reporting about the levels of fatigue at flydubai.

FlyDubai crash pilot 'was due to leave job over fatigue' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35855678)

If the BBC report is truthful and fatigue turns out to be a contributory factor then the legal implications for the airline and the senior Flight Operations Management at flydubai are extreme.

If a flight crew was involved in a survivable accident or incident they would be taken off line during the period of investigation, extensive debriefing would take place and they would be given a period to rest and recover followed by possible retraining and managerial guidance.

The Accountable Managers at flydubai have no such opportunity to stand down. They have had to stand up and deal with the immediate aftermath of a dreadful accident which will have shaken even the most robust character to their very core. They have to face harsh critical comment from the media and now have to deal with the complexity of assisting the investigations which may turn out to have massive legal implications for them as individuals.

If a flight crew was facing the same situation they would be stood down from flying duties during the immediate aftermath during the investigation and during any legal process.

Is now the right time for the Flight Operations Management team at flydubai to stand down and for a new fresh team to take charge of the day to day operation of the airline. This would ensure a 100% focus on safety and security of the business
going forward.

It would also allow the existing managerial team the humanity of a period to stand down, to rest recuperate and decompress from an awful harrowing experience and then be in a position to focus exclusively on the investigations and deal with any future legal implications.

[The Turtle]

Interesting timing, this.......

Putin hosts Abu Dhabi's crown prince for Syria-related talks - US News (http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2016-03-24/putin-hosts-abu-dhabis-crown-prince-for-syria-related-talks)

[thehighlander959]

-Don't worry, don't worry,
-Don't do it.
-Pull up pull up
Russian State News tonight.

[Sky7]

-Don't worry, don't worry,
-Don't do it.
-Pull up pull up
Russian State News tonight.
Words from the F.O to the Captain? Something to do with the trim wheel and he certainly wasn't focused if that was the case, too tired after that 2 hour hold... possible, Or I have been catching up with RT allot #flydubaigate

[Spoogie]

maybe this may help....

https://www.rt.com/news/337400-pilots-conflict-boeing-rostov/

[Aluminium shuffler]

Quote from the RT article:

"Anonymous experts Kommersant talked to believe the pilot did not manage the diving rudder and horizontal stabilizer, which steer the plane in opposite directions – down and up, respectively.

When the pilot pulled up, he put both the rudder and stabilizer in a sharp climb mode, somewhat fighter-jet style, plus enacted the TOGA regime’s retracted flaps, decreasing ascending force. As a result, the aircraft lost speed and got into the beyond-stall angle of approach. All this led to an uncontrollable dive, the experts believe."

Anyone still think it's accurate, credible and objective? The second paragraph is not the issue - that is just down to translation. It is the first paragraph that makes me think the research is limited to reading the ill-informed comments by the wannabees on the R&N forum.

[Avid Aviator]

Or not help.
I appreciate it's a Russian writing in English, but technically wrong on so many levels. Complete nonsense.

[notapilot15]

No worse than Quest trying to explain in perfect English which most of us normal folks cannot understand.

BTW, I haven't seen Quest on CNN rendering lengthy technical twaddle since he said "tosh" to something Miles O'Brain and Les Abend said. I think CNN changed the contract terms and he can only talk about "business" part of aviation ie., fares/service.

For that matter no media outlet is covering a major accident with 62 fatalities. If this was a some other airliner they will be all over it about safety.

Or did media outlets get verbal warning e-mail letters???

[ekpilot]

Guess who is buying all this advertisment on CNN...(Jennifer:"where is my shower?").
Quest/CNN unbiased ?????

[fatbus]

Money talks! Silence can be bought!

[Talparc]

WSJ reading

Possible Pilot Errors Emerge in Probe of FlyDubai Crash - WSJ (http://www.wsj.com/articles/possible-pilot-errors-emerge-in-probe-of-flydubai-crash-1459193950)

[notapilot15]

WSJ clearly putting blame on pilots, I guess fatbus comments came to fruition.

With RJ no longer working on pilots story at WSJ, it is hard to trust at this point.

[in freedom]

notapilot, I disagree. You need to read carefully. The article is very factual but not ruling out fatigue. They write that pilot error is likely from what we know now. They then go on to quote the GCAA that the GCAA are ruling out fatigue already. They finish off with a clear hint at conflict of interest at the GCAA since the Sheikh sits on their board and at the same time he is the Chairman of EK and FZ.
For such a heavyweight and serious publication that is their way of saying that you should read between the lines.

[notapilot15]

in freedom, that makes them a total lightweight. If they want to be trusted they have to be clear, not to expect readers to read between lines. This accident got less coverage than a rodent on Air India. Very suspicious.

[Deep and fast]

Can anyone elaborate on the GCAA ruling out fatigue?
Is that based on anything other than the roster as legal.....doesn't mean no fatigue tho.

[fliion]

Any way of getting access to WSJ article without being a subscriber?

[ruserious]

Ruling out fatigue = Blame Shifting, simple really

[Kennytheking]

fliion,

WSJ hack.......google the title of the article and follow the top link.

IE paste this into google "possible-pilot-errors-emerge-in-probe-of-flydubai-crash-1459193950"

Enjoy

[ExDubai]

http://awdnews.com/top-news/flydubai-crash-in-russia-now-labeled-%E2%80%9Ccriminal-act%E2%80%9D-after-us-missile-fragments-found
Oh no, did you have a look at the source? One of the funniest conspiracy sites ever... :}:}

[fliion]

Thanks Kenny

[TCAS I have control]

From Todays Australian Newspaper

Without certain fixes our “air safety privilege” as passengers will forever sit uneasily with our insatiable demand for lower airfares. And, for the crew and passengers of the doomed FZ981 flight from Dubai to Rostov-on-Don, those occasionally incompatible demands can and do sometimes manifest as failures in the safety systems and compensation regimes designed to protect us all.

The Flydubai crash in Russia on March 19 regrettably typifies air disasters in many respects, and inevitably will lead to an official report that makes many in the aviation industry and regulators admit “we should have heeded the warnings”.

It also exemplifies why all states must ratify the Montreal Convention of 1999 or the patchwork of liability laws that exist will continue to guarantee that those who need appropriate compensation most won’t get it.

Let’s consider one well known safety risk (or “warning”) within the aviation world, cumulative fatigue — the convergence of several realities for international aviators: shiftwork, night work, irregular work schedules, unpredictable work schedules, and time zone changes.

Fatigue management, or rather how it was addressed in rostering, was raised by Russian media as a potential contributing cause of the Flydubai crash.

There is little escape for pilots who genuinely feel unable to perform because of tiredness.

Employment ramifications for pilots who “go sick” together with continuing uncertainty over impending regulations, which some argue prefer air operators’ ability to roster pilots to the edge of the law, resonate with Australia’s pilots.

This includes concerns that commercial imperatives will outweigh safety once new Australian fatigue management rules come into force next year.

The upshot of this is that we know, and have known for years, that fatigue management is a topic that has major safety implications if handled improperly by regulators and airlines.

If the allegations are right that Flydubai has mismanaged safety to its own detriment (knowing the risks), then the legal retribution from passengers’ and crew members’ families should fairly reflect that knowledge.

And that brings us to why universal ratification of the Montreal Convention of 1999 is necessary.

This international law places a strict liability system at the heart of providing compensation to air disaster victims.

It is a system that uses a passenger’s contract of carriage to determine the available choices of jurisdiction of a legal case against an airline for injury or death, including where you live permanently, where the airline calls home, or where you were ticketed to start or conclude your journey.

Thus, the system works to ensure justice as intended only if every country accedes to it — and at last count, out of 191 sky-faring nations, only 119 had ratified Montreal.

The significance of this is in the composition of the 119 nations.

Many populous and far-reaching aviation states such as the Russian Federation and, closer to home, Indonesia do not protect their citizens with Montreal in the way Australia does.

This is important because it means that for most people on flight FZ981, and likewise on AirAsia flight QZ8501, which crashed in late 2014, the law (and courts) of Russia or Indonesia will apply for the purposes of assessing compensation for death, rather than the more forward-thinking Montreal Convention choices.

The lack of choice of jurisdiction is significant for affected families and represents the loss of a pragmatic way to ensure that those responsible for the organisational, regulatory, mechanical and human factors causing the crash face justice at a time and place that suits the surviving family members, rather than just the airline and its insurers.

Joseph Wheeler is aviation special counsel to Maurice Blackburn Lawyers and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots.

[Twiglet1]

Can anyone elaborate on the GCAA ruling out fatigue?
Is that based on anything other than the roster as legal.....doesn't mean no fatigue tho

Many posters are suggesting fatigue. With the roster on view there was absolutely no chance of fatigue (because the preview was only a short period of time)
More likely sleepiness - the need for sleep.
There is a massive difference between fatigue and sleepiness - i just wish well educated Pilots would get to understand the difference and stop using the F word.

[BigGeordie]

Twiglet, you contradict yourself. You admit that only a couple of weeks of roster were visible (and what a roster it was for those two weeks!) so you can't say if fatigue was a factor or not. Then you go on to say it most likely wasn't.

The pilots (as opposed to the management trolls) posting on here from Fly Dubai and the other airline across the airport are flying these rosters month in, month out. Trust me, they know the difference between "sleepy" and "fatigued".

[Trader]

The pilot had resigned stating FATIGUE. One roster is not enough to determine that but, Twiggy, you don't know the full story either so don't presume it NOT to be fatigue.

[SOPS]

Twig, you have absoloutly no idea if the crew were fatigued or not. There is no way you can make that call with the available information.

[fatbus]

Fly Dubai will hide under the GCAA FTLs and claim it's the pilots responsibility to book off if not fit( fatigued) . If a pilot says he's fatigued (unfit) he is then required not to fly.

[Sciolistes]

The horrible thing about chronic fatigue, is that you don't realise how chronically fatigued you are. Bad judgement is often the result of fatigue. Bad judgement like "I feel good enough to fly". Acute fatigue is easy to self assess, I am sure most experienced pilots at some time or another have felt a line has been crossed and called in unfit to fly.

Are we talking about long term chronic fatigue or acute short term went to bed too late had a bad night fatigue?

[dubaigong]

Call it the way you want , we are not doctor or health expert...
Call it unfit to fly if you prefer BUT it happen too many times that pilots are flying when not enough rested to perform as they should in an emergency or difficult condition.
The main reason being that the roster is design for single pilot with a maid to do all their cleaning shopping etc... to allow the pilot to just fly , eat and sleep
Only then , their published roster is "duable" without being "tired" , "fatigue" or "unfit" as you prefer to call it.

[atlas12]

Yes there is a difference between "fatigue" and "tiredness", but the result is the same: you aren't fit to fly. I don't give a **** what the definition is, you shouldn't be at the controls. When I am tired, due to boredom or whatever reason, I can't keep my eyes open. When I am fatigued, I might feel OK but I make mistakes sometimes without even detecting them.

[Sciolistes]

But as you say atlas, the crucial difference is one is obvious to you (acute fatigue, short term, feeling tired, obvious when you shouldn't fly) and chronic fatigue (feel maybe a bit fed up, irritable, no obvious stand out red flags). But with chronic fatigue, when the workload ramps up, fixation occurs, things get missed and the wrong decision is likely.

It is no good airlines saying 'pilots should not report if unfit' when the schedules drive people into chronic fatigue scenarios a pilot may feel in all honesty they they are not at their peak, but otherwise OK. This is why we have FTLs. This is what SMS is meant to prevent. To prevent company induced chronic fatigue.

If the only real line of defence is an individual crew member's judgement as to whether they are fit to fly, then the airline in question is more concerned with how blame can be effectively apportioned to the crew and has no real interest in safety. That much is clear.

[Talparc]

https://www.rt.com/news/338898-flydubai-crash-records-nosedive/

[vfenext]

Looks like a case of somatogravic effect and nothing to do with fatigue.

[recceguy]

except that the somato-something (how literate to the audience - and to ourselves - do we all look when using this term..) could and used to happen in, say a Skyraider or a Hawker Hunter in darkness, single-pilot and poor instrument design from decades ago, unreliable ADI and so, but not on elaborate two-pilots airliners of modern times with beautifully designed cockpit instruments ..... or there is really a problem somewhere.

Did those pilots pay for their training originally, years ago ? passengers and the general public should be informed of that

[framer]

Somotogravic illusion happens. It can happen in a piston twin, it can happen in a 737. If you are well rested you can process the information being presented to you by the instruments effectively which helps you to recognise that you need to maintain the correct attitude on the pfd. If you are processing visual information slowly due to fatigue or distraction you are less likely to make appropriate control inputs in a timely fashion. When you do make inputs they may be more course than is desireable.

[CaptainChipotle]

VFEnext...

Nothing to do with fatigue? Really?

If they departed at 9am and not 9pm, it wouldn't have made the news.

[ruserious]

100% correct Framer

[Kamelchaser]

Recceguy you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, and therefore you represent the exact problem the industry has in dealing with this serious threat.

This is the exact same scenario as the Tarastan Airlines 737 crash in 2103. Almost exactly the same flight profile.

Here's a simple explanation of the illusion caused by confusing signals to the Otolith organs in our ears;

In aviation we are faced with the combination of rapid acceleration and reduced/no visual cues (i.e. IMC and/or night flying). As we no longer have the benefit of our visual system to resolve the ambiguity, our brain uses the signals it is receiving and interprets them as a ‘tilt’. The net result is a tilt back (i.e. pitching up) sensation under acceleration, and a tilting forward (i.e. pitching down) sensation under deceleration.

Typically this occurs during the missed approach or go-around segment of a flight at night or in IMC. Speed is slow, power is rapidly applied and the aircraft then accelerates rapidly. As no visual cues exist, this generates a strong ‘tilt back’ sensation which the pilot interprets (incorrectly) as a rapid pitching up sensation. Despite this perception the aircraft may still actually be in a level attitude or only a slight climb. This is the somatogravic illusion. The pilot will then push forward on the control column to control this (imaginary) climb thinking they are lowering the aircraft nose back to level flight, when in actual fact they are lowering the nose into a dive. As the aircraft nose lowers, the aircraft continues to accelerate, generating additional pitch up sensations, causing the pilot to lower the nose even further. Tragically, this illusion normal ends with the pilot commanding the aircraft into a high speed steep dive and contact with the ground quickly ensues.


You can't train for this "sensation experience" of this event in a simulator. The only time you'll experience it is in the real aircraft, in a very dangerous situation.

What we have to do to recognise, train for, and mitigate this particular threat is;

1. Teach crews the awareness of the effect, and when it's going to be a threat.
2. Make sure that crews brief this as a threat, (night, IMC, tired) and what they're going to do about it.
3. Use the autopilot to maximum effect during approach AND PARTICULARLY in the event of a missed approach.
4. Brief to rely on the instruments and ignore the sickening feeling of being 70+ degs nose up.

We've identified in the industry that two engine go-arounds are actually a risky manoeuvre if not managed properly. Teaching crew to hand-fly these manoeuvres is essential, but it's led crew to tend to disconnect the AP when they sense things are going wrong. In this case, they ABSOLUTELY need to rely on the autopilot (if it's working) under these circumstances.

[Aluminium shuffler]

To Kamelchaser's observation "You can't train for this "sensation experience" of this event in a simulator. The only time you'll experience it is in the real aircraft..."

Well, that's not entirely true. Firstly, the RAF and RN pilots were taught about somatogravic illusions in rigs specifically design to create them, and very strongly so the lesson of trusting instruments over feel could be emphasised. You can even do it with an office chair - get someone to spin you fast and then put your ear on your shoulder! Secondly, full motion simulators such as those used in flight training and fair ground rides rely entirely on somatogravic illusion to create the impression of acceleration in each axis.

The effect is very strong, and most pilots will suffer it from time to time. US Navy fast jet pilots have to do carrier catapult launches hands-off purely because of so many pitching down into the sea as they accelerated.

[vfenext]

Training for SE began on day one of you instrument rating. Trust your instruments and if that doesn't work put the damn autopilot on. Rocket science it ain't

[Mach_Krit]

obviously it isnt rocket science when you are sitting comfortably typing on your computer with all your wits about you. tired, exhausted, in the middle of the night, bad weather, financial pressure, company pressure...and it all becomes not so obviously rocket science.

[harry the cod]

Aluminium shuffler

That's not entirely true either. The sim uses the principle but in reverse. The simulator can't actually accelerate very far as it has limited movement due to it's fixed position so it recreates the 'acceleration' sensation buy tilting back.

If you were to watch a sim from the outside during a 'take off', you'd see the initial tilt increasing (quite large) which represents the setting of take off power. However, this tilt then slowly reduces as the 'aircraft' accelerates down the runway as we wouldn't continue to feel the acceleration in the real World. (our ears are now compensating for this). This allows the simulator to settle to a near horizontal position ready for another tilt to replicate the lift off sensation.

As for recceguy's comments, maybe some research through recent accidents might be advisable. Air Afrique 330 dawn arrival into Tripoli. Gulf Air 072 night arrival into Bahrain. Both of these accidents had the same primary cause. Both of these aircraft also had the same 'beautifully designed cockpit instruments'. There are others too. Perhaps what he's insinuating is that despite these modern cockpits overcoming the errors of previous aircraft and their more basic and less reliable instruments, crew are still succumbing to this phenomenon.

....and that, my fellow aviators, is where fatigue does enter the equation!

Harry

[recceguy]

Kamelchaser ....

You speak like the expert. Tell me, how many barrel rolls did you do in the clouds, flying on instruments ? how much close formation also in the clouds, turning and descending, crossing cloud layers, day or night ? how much low level out at sea - 150 ft, 500 ft - with a gray horizon, turning at 60° bank without climbing ? how many desert landings at night with NVG ? how many loops just after take-off ? so who talks about vertigoes and illusions ?

[Sciolistes]

This is the exact same scenario as the Tarastan Airlines 737 crash in 2103. Almost exactly the same flight profile.

Look again. In effect, the flight profile is nothing like the Tarastan event.

[framer]

That's great recceguy, but what you have experienced/ been able to achieve isn't a benchmark for International Air Transport Safety 'going forward'.
You had your time in the Herc and that is great, you received ongoing military training ( as did I but that is irrelevant) and now fly commercial aircraft to a very high standard I am sure........but how does that prevent accidents like this occurring in the future?
Most people who have flown for more than a few years understand that somotogravic illusion is a phenomenon that does occur and is usually dealt with in an appropriate manner due to well trained and rested crews.
What many in the industry are worried about right now is that rostering practices have developed to a point where crew are so tired/fatigued that they are less likely to be able to effectively deal with situations such as FZ981 due to slower mental processing. Even perhaps that crews unwittingly create situations such as FZ981 due to slower mental processing.
Your exceptional flying abilities don't really offer any solutions to the problems we are discussing.

[Schnowzer]

Tell me, how many barrel rolls did you do in the clouds, flying on instruments ?. That's really something to be proud of?🙄

I spent my time trying to stay the right way up and making sure the jet's performance was limited appropriately by its weakest link.......me!

[Aluminium shuffler]

Harry, I did say that sims use somatogravic illusion, not that it trains pilots how to combat it. But since they use it, they could easily be given an alternate motion algorithm to produce the effect, or you could just turn the motion off to screw with experienced pilots' senses. Frankly, the sim make me feel drunk for the first hour because of the motion, especially taxying.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Recce, are your posts intended as anything more than bragging of what you claim to have flown? I stress claim, because most who have done that don't feel the insecurity to have to brag about it. Certainly your assertion that pilots can't suffer somatogravic illusion in a modern airliner suggests you have never flown anything at all - all pilots are likely to get the leans from time to time, some more than others. Aggressive manouvering shakes up the otoliths and vestibular canals and actually reduces the illusion, so much so that the doctors at North Luffenham would tech military pilots that momentarily shaking their head vigourously would "reset" them and clear the illusion. If you'd done it, you'd know that.

[Kamelchaser]

Sciolistes I did look again, and other than the fact that Tarastan 737 only made it to 700m whereas the Fly Dubai 737 made it to 1500m, I stick with my contention that the profiles are pretty much exactly the same.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Tatarstan-Boeing737-500-Kazan2013-scheme.png

[Aluminium shuffler]

As I understood it, the Tarastan was stalled. From the speeds disclosed on the FZ, if the disclosures are accurate, stalling seems unlikely.

[Sciolistes]

Sciolistes I did look again, and other than the fact that Tarastan 737 only made it to 700m whereas the Fly Dubai 737 made it to 1500m, I stick with my contention that the profiles are pretty much exactly the same.
According to the FR24 data, FZ981 had pretty much completed the go-around manoeuvre when the upset occurred. You can see from the ground speed, the airspeed would have been around clean speed, if not more. There is absolutely no evidence in that data of low speeds, nor a stall, just a sudden and extreme nose over.

[Global Nomad]

You speak like the expert. Tell me, how many barrel rolls did you do in the clouds, flying on instruments ? how much close formation also in the clouds, turning and descending, crossing cloud layers, day or night ? how much low level out at sea - 150 ft, 500 ft - with a gray horizon, turning at 60° bank without climbing ? how many desert landings at night with NVG ? how many loops just after take-off ? so who talks about vertigoes and illusions ?

So what's your point recceguy?

[Wizofoz]

His point is he's a hero ex-military pilot and thus an expert about everything......

[fab777]

His point is he's a hero ex-military pilot and thus an expert about everything......

He managed to make a complet a$$ of himself on the french forum, and now he is going global... ;)

[framer]

He must have been the best of the best to end up on Hercs lol

[Jack D]

230 kph is equivalent to approx 124 kts . If (and I don't know ) the Ac is in clean configuration 124 kts and 25 deg nose up is a low speed condition However . 230 kph references ground speed .. So depending on the wind at 700 m ias could be more or less than 124 kts ..

[Sciolistes]

That graphic above is not the FZ981 profile, that is the Tarastan. FZ981 reached a ground speed of 185kts at the point of the upset, taking into account the headwind, this would be around clean speed, nowhere near 1g stall speed in any configuration.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6615175/Screenshot%202016-04-11%2009.37.20.png

[ekpilot]

Harry, fatigue does affect somatogravic illusion.

Google this: www.caa.co.za/.../Disorientation.pdf

[Old King Coal]

The correct link to the above URL is: http://www.caa.co.za/Aviation%20Medicine%20General%20Information/Disorientation.pdf

[harry the cod]

ekpilot

Yes, wasn't that what I said in my last sentence?

That's just the point. Regardless of training and how good your normal levels of situational awareness are, if you're very tired or fatigued, the ability to cognitively process this information, along with acute stress, makes the task very difficult. I'm sure most, if not all of us have found ourselves in a situation that went from fairly benign to seriously threatening in a very short space of time.

Definitely a 'I learned from that moment' type of experience. Most of us are lucky to be able to walk away from them.

Harry

[ekpilot]

Yes Harry, agreed, I mis-read you!!!! I must be fatigue!

[Tatarin]

Frankly, the sim make me feel drunk for the first hour because of the motion, especially taxying.[/QUOTE]

100%

[WYOMINGPILOT]

An Illusion caused the accident:
An Illusion Made FlyDubai Pilots Crash Their Plane Into the Ground (http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/a20530/flydubai-pilots-crash-illusion/)

[recceguy]

from Wyomingpilot (?)

Popularmechanics.com .... instrument flying and illusions for dummies !

Other articles from their website, next to the Rostov accident :
"build your storage station for your cordless drill"
"22 ingenious way to repurpose old junk"

and then the ultimate statement :
"It takes time for someone to go from 'Oh, the instruments are saying this,' to 'No, no, no, this is all wrong!' and start pushing," Soejatman says.

Well, if so, don't even consider to be a fighter pilot - and even a transport pilot, should I say.

[Wizofoz]

Well, if so, don't even consider to be a fighter pilot - and even a transport pilot, should I say.

Don't attempt to be a diplomat- or even a decent Human Being should I say....

[Odins Raven]

from Wyomingpilot (?)

Popularmechanics.com .... instrument flying and illusions for dummies !

Other articles from their website, next to the Rostov accident :
"build your storage station for your cordless drill"
"22 ingenious way to repurpose old junk"

and then the ultimate statement :
"It takes time for someone to go from 'Oh, the instruments are saying this,' to 'No, no, no, this is all wrong!' and start pushing," Soejatman says.

Well, if so, don't even consider to be a fighter pilot - and even a transport pilot, should I say.

Recceguy... with respect:

You may very well be the best pilot in your company, the best pilot in your country, or even in the world...

But you are not nearly as good as you think you are.

And therein lies the danger.

If you don't realise that you could also be caught off-guard no matter how good or experienced you are, then one day you may kill many more people than have perished here.

Fly safe.

[jimmyg]

I find it intriguing that for most of us who have too high an opinion of our innate knowledge start off knowing nothing. A year or two later, with a few thousand hours, think that we know everything. Then we spend the rest of our careers coming to realize just how little we really do know.

Those who might end up experts of course understand that an expert is someone who knows an impressive amount about next to nothing, a workmanlike amount about a number of other useful things and zip about near everything else.

Safety and learning commences with humility sprinkled with confidence.

[ruserious]

Amen Jimmy

[chapola]

“The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
― Socrates

[glofish]

We are staring into the ugly face of modern airline aviation. The danger of eroding quality and safety, of overworking employees, of cutting their training, of stretching all limits pops up at almost every accident.

This one here bears all the marks of the above.

Instead of accusing the real culprit and asking for remedial action, many of us revert to pathetically attack each other or flagellate themselves of not knowing anything about anything.
Funnily enough the same contributors who attack others for not being humble enough, for not acknowledging to not know enough, that each and everyone can be caught out and has to be vigilant and not too overconfident, are the same ones who run to defence of lowering the bar and accepting lower experienced buddies when others want the quality to be maintained, calling them arrogant.

Gentlemen, we are talking about the pillars of safe airmanship:
Good training, build up and maintenance of experience and a healthy and sustainable working environment. Everything the airlines try very actively to reduce and not your fellow pilots.
So pick your battle, please.

It is not feudally asking for a cushy contract if we demand a sustainable roster and rest, considering the findings of scientific research.
It is in the name of safety and health.

But at the same time it is not arrogance, looking down on others, or putting one’s self on a pedestal when we criticise the lowering of the bar in accepting even lesser experienced pilots and trainers, the required ones not applying in sufficient numbers and the experienced others leaving disillusioned.
It’s simply common sense and logic.

In this expatriate environment with no leaders, but dumb drill sergeants, where different mentalities collide, where different licenses mean completely different things, where training is overshadowed by dictatorial fleet and useless administration, where punishment is preferred to debate and learning, there are three things that help us:

Training, experience and a rested mind.

[nakbin330]

We are staring into the ugly face of modern airline aviation. The danger of eroding quality and safety, of overworking employees, of cutting their training, of stretching all limits pops up at almost every accident.

This one here bears all the marks of the above.

Instead of accusing the real culprit and asking for remedial action, many of us revert to pathetically attack each other or flagellate themselves of not knowing anything about anything.
Funnily enough the same contributors who attack others for not being humble enough, for not acknowledging to not know enough, that each and everyone can be caught out and has to be vigilant and not too overconfident, are the same ones who run to defence of lowering the bar and accepting lower experienced buddies when others want the quality to be maintained, calling them arrogant.

Gentlemen, we are talking about the pillars of safe airmanship:
Good training, build up and maintenance of experience and a healthy and sustainable working environment. Everything the airlines try very actively to reduce and not your fellow pilots.
So pick your battle, please.

It is not feudally asking for a cushy contract if we demand a sustainable roster and rest, considering the findings of scientific research.
It is in the name of safety and health.

But at the same time it is not arrogance, looking down on others, or putting one’s self on a pedestal when we criticise the lowering of the bar in accepting even lesser experienced pilots and trainers, the required ones not applying in sufficient numbers and the experienced others leaving disillusioned.
It’s simply common sense and logic.

In this expatriate environment with no leaders, but dumb drill sergeants, where different mentalities collide, where different licenses mean completely different things, where training is overshadowed by dictatorial fleet and useless administration, where punishment is preferred to debate and learning, there are three things that help us:

Training, experience and a rested mind.


I couldn't agree more. Well written.

[dubaigong]

Very well said Glofish.
I wish our head of training , chief pilot and TRIs/TREs open their eyes and finally act to see what could be changed or improved in our training...
Instead we continue with memos telling us to review several maneuvers in our manuals and get directed to review the self-training Tools on the e-learning portal.
I guess they don't understand that reading and Learning is not enough for certain things , you need PRACTICE and to repeat several time the same maneuver if you want to be proficient the day you don't expect it and it happens.
I guess this is too far away for their understanding on how things work in real life.

[Talparc]

Glofish:
excellent post, that is exactly the problem!

dubaigong:
excellent comment , remember you get a warning during training if you have to repeat several time the same maneuver e.g. cross wind landings. MM knows about it and keeps quite! What a great troll!

[framer]

We are staring into the ugly face of modern airline aviation.
A great opener for the best post I have read in a long time.
You have summed it all up perfectly Glofish.
self-training Tools on the e-learning portal.
It's a joke ain't it?
And even worse than the Airlines who pretend they believe it is effective, the XAA's who sign off on it.
I've just about had enough of fighting it.

[Otto Throttle]

Glider 7,

There is no recording of the almost inevitable conversation between the crew and NCC. Apparently there was a "system failure" in the days immediately prior to the accident, so any evidence would have to come from the CVR.

[SOPS]

Excellent post glofish, post of the year.