Tattoo you? Female applicant turned down due to her tattoo.

[Al R]

I guess this is going to be, generally, an age thing.

Tattoo rules prevent potential RAF recruit from landing her dream job (From Oxford Mail) (http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/14346266.Tattoo_rules_prevent_potential_RAF_recruit_from_lan ding_her_dream_job/?ref=twtrec)

[Cyber Bob]

Depends - if it's visible and unsightly it may be considered inappropriate or grotesque

[NutLoose]

I don't know if it has changed but they were never to be visible and in catering especially it was taboo, as they are up her neck above the collar I totally agree with the stance. once you let one in sight like that, you would then have to justify each and every one, from flowers like hers through to swastikas.

[romeo bravo]

Check the link; stars on her upper neck, therefore visible in uniform!

[Union Jack]

The article U.S. Marines change the women's uniform to allow enlisted females to cover tattoos | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3492243/U-S-Marines-change-women-s-uniform-allow-enlisted-females-cover-tattoos-20-year-old-woman-rejected-having-inked-chest-piece.html), indicates that the USMC are prepared to change their uniform rules in order to comply with their requirement that there should be no visible tattoos so, if the Royal Air Force were to adopt a similar approach, it would appear that Laura Hill might have to adopt another style of headgear in order to comply.

Removal of a tattoo is of course another option, and one which the Royal Navy certainly applied when a disenchanted young sailor had "I hate the Navy" tattooed.....on his forehead.:= The removal was very painfully undertaken on unpaid leave but, when the sailor subsequently served in sunny climes, the words reappeared, albeit faintly, greatly to his subsequent regret, a feeling I suspect so many others must share.:(

Jack

[Stuff]

I just don't believe this happened the way it's reported.

There are many, many people serving who have tattoos that are visible when wearing uniform and, since I met him just yesterday, there's at least one young man with very noticable body modifications.

[NutLoose]

I suppose it depends whether they got them prior to service or after.
In her case and altering the uniform to cover it up, do they do an RAF hijab. plus are you seriously going to alter the uniform of every serving RAF female to simply adhere to the whims of this one person? I think not.
A bit of a case of if it was her desire to become a member of the RAF, she should have learnt the requirements before decorating her body so. Her choice and her consequences.

As for the army rules

http://www.army.mod.uk/news/26584.aspx

Hers appear not to be on the rear of her neck, but the side, so may well be inadmissible in full time service.

A change to the Queen’s regulations means that body art can now be displayed on the hands and rear of the neck – two areas that were previously banned.Surely that applies to all forces?

[High Average]

Why should the RAF change it's regulations? Tattoos, in my opinion are unsightly. When someone in uniform is showing an armful of tattoos then that is even worse. Just because society has decided that tattoos are more acceptable does not mean that the RAF should change. What next, wearing of uniform trousers with designer rips or the waist band worn half way down my backside just because some so called trend setter has decided it's OK? We need to stop changing to suit people; the rules are there, and if you cannot comply with them then do not join. It's your choice after all.

[downsizer]

The rules are quite clear. If they are visible in No1 SD, so essentially hands and necks, then they are to be rejected.

She isn't the first and won't be the last. Many people have them removed to get in.

As others have stated the Army policy is much more relaxed, she can jog on there if she likes.

[Tourist]

Or, we could let the best people in regardless of how they look?

It's a crazy idea I know, but looking good on a parade is no longer important on the field of war.

We used to not want tattooed oiks because it was indicative of the sort of person they probably are.
Society has moved on and I know loads of aircrew officers with tattoos.

Get a life.

[downsizer]

But, but, but, THE RULES!!!! FFS. :ooh:

[Tourist]

You do know that the rules are laid down by people and the people can change the rules, yes?

An example is the fact that she is gay.
That used to disqualify her, but now it does not.

[ukcds]

If you consider the changes that have been made regarding sexual orientation, co habiting, being pregnant whilst in service and the ability of trans gender individuals all being allowed to serve. It does seem quite ridiculous that an individual should be positively discriminated against due to the location of a tattoo. If it were offensive or inflammatory then perhaps they should be given the option to have it removed or covered over. Otherwise I don't see the problem

[Minnie Burner]

Maybe she was turned down because she was useless (and showed poor judgement, obviously).
New entry requirement: "Confirm all tattoos are correctly spelt" (or spelled, for US military?)

[downsizer]

You do know that the rules are laid down by people and the people can change the rules, yes?

Right, stop that now. Clearly you are taking the piss....

[NutLoose]

Society has moved on and I know loads of aircrew officers with tattoos.


This way up? left hand... right hand? All useful tattoos

[Airbus38]

This is not a case of discrimination, it's a case of uniformity. Men can't wear beards and sideburns have to be trimmed no lower than the midpoint of the ear. The fact that society has moved on doesn't matter a bit. Her appearance doesn't meet the uniform standards because of a conscious decision she has made. Sorry, it's their train set I'm afraid.

[27mm]

Hold on, if men can't wear beards, does that mean ladies can?

[glad rag]

An age thing? yep!!

I'm to the right end of "middle aged" and I think it's :mad: change the rules and get the best people on board!!!

[Ken Scott]

No rules against ladies with beards as far as I'm aware, presumably as long as it's kept neat & trimmed. I know for certain that WRAFs can & do wear moustaches....

[glad rag]

This way up? left hand... right hand? All useful tattoos
How about

Before Pulling Knob
Ensure Ammo Tank Is Supported

[chopper2004]

With USMC and tattoos, in the late George Hall's book Superbase 17 - Kanoehe Bay - The Marines Hawaiian Haven - check out the Station Operations & Maintenance Squadron HH-46E photo chapter and the aircraft commander who is a Captain - you can see a colorful dragon tattoo near his wrist - not sure how it would look in Blue Dress D with short sleeve khaki.

cheers


cheers

[Bigbux]

.Why should the RAF change it's regulations? Tattoos, in my opinion are unsightly. When someone in uniform is showing an armful of tattoos then that is even worse. Just because society has decided that tattoos are more acceptable does not mean that the RAF should change. .....We need to stop changing to suit people; the rules are there, and if you cannot comply with them then do not join. It's your choice after all.

When I first joined it was an offence to be gay. If you were subsequently found to be homosexual you were court martialled and discharged with a criminal offence recorded against you, despite it not being a criminal offence in civvy street.

Female officers were given the choice of terminating either their service or their pregnancies.

Female officers were offered PVR on marriage, but male officers not.

"Why should we change?" you ask. Is it that you are only comfortable around people that look and sound like you?, or perhaps you would be content if some arbitrary rule was applied that disadvantaged you?

It would seem that tattoos and piercings have joined the list of "must-haves" for the insecure and impressionable, along with cigarettes, beards, top-knots, designer baby names and gym steroids. But to be honest, without this bunch your Armed Forces wouldn't add up to a hill of beans.

What counts is what they can give and labelling them all to fit in with a set of stereotyped pre-conceptions is not a terribly effective way of sorting the wheat from the chaff.

[Ken Scott]

But where do you stop? Someone is turned down for their 'dream job' in the RAF because they have a purple Mohican hairstyle & a bone through their nose & demands that the Air Force 'gets with the times' & changes the rules? There have to be some rules in order to maintain standards & while things may gradually evolve over time I don't think that things should have to bend to the whim of one person.

[Tourist]

But where do you stop? Someone is turned down for their 'dream job' in the RAF because they have a purple Mohican hairstyle & a bone through their nose & demands that the Air Force 'gets with the times' & changes the rules? There have to be some rules in order to maintain standards & while things may gradually evolve over time I don't think that things should have to bend to the whim of one person.
What Standards?
Why does uniformity matter any more? We no longer aspire to vast hordes of unthinking troops who obey orders without thinking. We now expect more professional troops who will obviously have personality.

This is not the whim of one person. This is the vast majority of the military target recruitment population now having tattoos, many of which are visible.

[mopardave]

I don't know when the army "moved with the times" because when I was with my son in the army recruitment office, approx. 5 years ago, I witnessed a young lad being rejected on the spot because he had a tattoo on his neck. It was a shame for the lad.....he may have made a great soldier......and let's face it, what did it have to do with his possible ability as a soldier? Having said that, on balance, I had to agree. It is about conformity at the end of the day......I came across "crusaders" in my time in the emergency services.....they expected everyone to change to accommodate them.....and they were always challenging and pushing the boundaries! Nah, rules are rules........if she's that bothered, she'll have 'em removed.

[BEagle]

Tourist wrote:
What Standards?
Why does uniformity matter any more? We no longer aspire to vast hordes of unthinking troops who obey orders without thinking. We now expect more professional troops who will obviously have personality.

This is not the whim of one person. This is the vast majority of the military target recruitment population now having tattoos, many of which are visible.

Do you actually believe some of the nonsense you write, or are you simply intent on being provocative?

As for Society has moved on and I know loads of aircrew officers with tattoos I have never known a professional pilot with a tattoo. Perhaps it's different in the navy, given the historical traditions applicable to seafarers?

This woman has 20 tattoos according to the local paper. If she doesn't like the RAF regulations on the subject, she could always apply to the army - particularly as she used to be an army reservist

[Tourist]

You may not have known that they had a tattoo, but that is very different from them not having them.
Aircrew know the rules before we join up. We tend to be quite driven and informed. Young lads and lasses are less so.

I think this is a legacy of cold war warriors. Back then image maybe was more important. The last few years of conflict have perhaps focussed minds on rather more important metrics than whether they look good in uniform?

We currently have trouble recruiting either the numbers or quality of people we want. If you want to filter, filter for reasons that actually impact effectiveness, not visual impact.

Plenty of RAF aircrew with tattoos and even piercings.

The outside world has come to terms with tattoos long ago. Not a fan myself, but my brother is very high up in one of the big accountancy firms and he is covered in horrible ink and piercings. You know what, nobody cares because he is good at his job.

[ZFT]

The outside world has come to terms with tattoos long ago.My part of the outside world hasn't. Tattoos and body piercings do negatively influence me during the interview process and I'm sure I'm not alone. PC correct, maybe not but true nevertheless.

Brandings and rings should remain with cows and bulls.

[tmmorris]

The old ban on being gay is a total red herring. People have a choice whether to get a tattoo or not, and (with limited success) it's reversible.

We used to think they had a choice in being gay. We now know that was wrong and changed accordingly. I don't think that's going to happen with tattoos.

[mymatetcm]

If she was that keen she would have them removed! at least 3 candidates i know have had lazer surgery, including an ex RM who had one visible

[TBM-Legend]

Anyway you wouldn't see the nose ring or tongue piercing under the standard O2 mask..

[Tourist]

The old ban on being gay is a total red herring. People have a choice whether to get a tattoo or not, and (with limited success) it's reversible.

We used to think they had a choice in being gay. We now know that was wrong and changed accordingly. I don't think that's going to happen with tattoos.
What an extraordinary statement.

You think gay people were finally allowed in because we realised it wasn't their fault? Not their choice?!!:ugh:

Would you allow people who were tattooed against their will?:ooh:

[Basil]

The irony is that there are recruits who have big tattoos – some full sleeves – but because they cannot be seen under a uniform then they are okay.
What happens in short sleeve order?
Noticed an ex Army RN recruit on TV with forearm tats. Didn't seem to be a problem in the RN.
Despite the tats, AND a bad stutter, Popeye had a long and successful career ;)

[Stitchbitch]

If the numbers coming through the door were getting low then I imagine certain 'standards' would be overlooked, after all, the foreign AF technicians I've had the pleasure of training that had tattoos and piercings were all very good at their jobs and supremely competent. Tattoos, body modifications, etc shouldn't make a difference if someone can do the job. :rolleyes:

[NutLoose]

While you are at it perhaps we should also let males in with waist length hair, after all that is a personal choice as well... it isn't the length of the hair that is the issue, it is a standard to go by and stick too and is a discipline thing, without building a solid foundation of discipline from the outset you will struggle to get people to follow orders when it counts.

[Roland Pulfrew]

You may not have known that they had a tattoo, but that is very different from them not having them.

Exactly. They were not visible in uniform. I see no problem with people having tattoos; it is their visibility that the RAF's uniform code has, quite rightly, an issue with. Why should "we" accept a decline in standards just because "society" has? It doesn't make it right!!

[Stitchbitch]

Nutloose, long hair isn't practical in an engineering role, probably better suited to the flight deck?

[Tourist]

Long hair is normal in skandi ships. They don't seem to have a problem

[Buster Hyman]

This way up? left hand... right hand? All useful tattoos
Exit only...:E:E:E

[NutLoose]

Bend here.... :p

[mopardave]

.....or how about "coach parties welcome"

[High Average]

.

When I first joined it was an offence to be gay. If you were subsequently found to be homosexual you were court martialled and discharged with a criminal offence recorded against you, despite it not being a criminal offence in civvy street.

Female officers were given the choice of terminating either their service or their pregnancies.

Female officers were offered PVR on marriage, but male officers not.

"Why should we change?" you ask. Is it that you are only comfortable around people that look and sound like you?, or perhaps you would be content if some arbitrary rule was applied that disadvantaged you?

It would seem that tattoos and piercings have joined the list of "must-haves" for the insecure and impressionable, along with cigarettes, beards, top-knots, designer baby names and gym steroids. But to be honest, without this bunch your Armed Forces wouldn't add up to a hill of beans.

What counts is what they can give and labelling them all to fit in with a set of stereotyped pre-conceptions is not a terribly effective way of sorting the wheat from the chaff.
Being gay, bisexual, left wing or anything like that doesn't stop you looking smart in uniform, whereas tattoos take away the principle of uniformity. We all have to conform with standards of haircut, pressed trousers, shiny shoes etc. Do the masses all have to be covered in tattoos to continue this uniformity so that we can embrace the minority? Granted, some of these tattoo covered people may well be of a high calibre, but we are a uniformed service and there are rules to be followed. If someone chooses to get tattoos then that is their choice and good luck to them. I personally think it looks absolutely bloody awful and that is why I do not have any. We can only bend over to appease the PC brigade so much, and this is a step too far for me I am afraid.

[teeteringhead]

When I first joined it was an offence to be gay

It never was - either in Service or Civilian life - illegal to be gay. What was illegal - in some times and jurisdictions -was to undertake gay activities.....

The celibate gay is not that unusual .........

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle, I know you will say Navs don't count but we had one who could not goi in shirt sleeve order. He had his tats removed - not invisible but pretty feint.

Then we had a Nav Stude who was advised to let the holes in his ears heal over. I don't believe he graduated.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

The celibate gay is not that unusual ......

My mum always used the term 'Confirmed Batchelor'. Not sure if that was correct or not.


Aaron.

[FODPlod]

Sqn Ldr Blenkinsop took full advantage of the RAF's decision to relax its policy regarding visible tattoos. She is now planning a series of facial piercings.

http://cdn2.holytaco.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/179.jpg

[teeteringhead]

My mum always used the term 'Confirmed Bachelor'. Indeed so; the Torygraph obits would use as their final sentence:

"He was unmarried" ...........

[Davef68]

Always surprised me, given the 'bull' standards of the Guards Regiments, that the senior NCO in the British Army had an anrmful:

http://forces.tv/sites/default/files/styles/inline_image/public/newarmyrank.jpg?itok=BeAhfAyr

[Basil]

FODPlod #47, In my youth, it would have appealed to my sense of humour to have strolled into the Officers' Mess bar with that lady :E

[Tourist]

Granted, some of these tattoo covered people may well be of a high calibre, but we are a uniformed service and there are rules to be followed.

You are quite right. Can't let operational capability and competence due to employing high calibre people get in the way of looking smart on parade. Sheesh:rolleyes:

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned facial hair!

Aaron.

[Pontius Navigator]

Like FODPlodz pic there, where do you draw the line between visible acceptable and visible unacceptable?

Saw a man, shaven head, tattoo from waist, over head and down back on just one half of his body. Fortunately he wore trousers. He also wore a chain on his chest. Take the OP, if below the ear was acceptable, how about ear to eye?

[Whenurhappy]

The rules are quite clear. If they are visible in No1 SD, so essentially hands and necks, then they are to be rejected.

She isn't the first and won't be the last. Many people have them removed to get in.

As others have stated the Army policy is much more relaxed, she can jog on there if she likes.
There's one recently/retired AVM who had tattoos removed from his arm as a junior officer as he realized they would be career-limiting. He had also pierced his ears in his youth.

[Tankertrashnav]

I remember my dad (ex Scots Guards), who had three tattoos on his arms always regretted them and advised me never to get myself tattooed. I took his advice. Sounds like the retired AVM referred to by whenurhappy made a wise move getting rid of his.

As for that guards WO pictured, I concede you don't get to a position like that without being a seriously good soldier. Doesn't prevent me thinking he looks bloody awful in shirt sleeve order!

[oldgrubber]

Simple fact is she has a tattoo that would be visible above the neckline in uniform.
Reading the article, it would appear she has a partner who could have informed her of the regulations concerning tattoos.
As stated in this thread a “dream job” would imply she would do anything to get it including remove tattoos, I would.
So all in all it appears the recruiter did his/her job correctly, wrong person not recruited; WIN.
For information I got my first forearm tattoo at “Doc Prices’” down Union Street in Plymouth at 17, my balancing tat at 20 on the other arm and have never regretted either, but they were iaw regs and not visible with sleeves rolled down.
The Master at Arms spotted my tattoo and informed me that only salty sea dogs and criminals had tats and asked which I was. I thought it was rich as he had arm and leg tats and he put me on stores party, saying if I couldn’t do the job because of my new tat he would troop me for self inflicted wounds. Seems the fact I was only 17 went right by him.

Happy memories.

[The Old Fat One]

I am only posting here for one reason...

So I can...

Tourist...I concur.

[DirtyProp]

Tats here, tats there, sheesh.....

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/f/fe/19th_hole.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20071115210309

[parabellum]

Always surprised me, given the 'bull' standards of the Guards Regiments, that the senior NCO in the British Army had an armful:

Judging by his cap badge he isn't serving with a Guards regiment at the time of the picture, maybe TA? Possibly in a staff post outside the brigade.
May never have ben a 'regular'?

Don't know if it still applies but there was, I believe, a time when you wouldn't be accepted into SF if you had tattoos.

[Tankertrashnav]

The new rank of Army Sergeant Major is held by Glenn Haughton, formerly WO1 in the Grenadier Guards

The Army creates its most senior post ever for a soldier - British Army Website (http://www.army.mod.uk/news/27179.aspx)

As you imply, the cap badge he is wearing is the badge worn by army staff officers and others who are ex regimentally employed. I have a photo of my father wearing this badge as a lieutenant in the Corps of Military Police in WW2, because at that time the CMP did not have any officers and they had to be seconded from other regiments and corps. If you read the link you will find that Sergeant Major Haughton is a member of the Executive Committee Army Board, as well as various other boards. An interesting fact is that at the end of his tenure, he will do the army staff course, and be commissioned in the rank of major.

[High Average]

You are quite right. Can't let operational capability and competence due to employing high calibre people get in the way of looking smart on parade. Sheesh:rolleyes:
So if we allow these tattoos just in case we don't get the best people in the Service, where does it end? Let's do away with all regulations, turn up when we want (after tattoo appointment of course), do as we are told only if it suits us etc. Blimey, wouldn't want want any of these petty regulations getting in the way of employing Mr/Mrs Bright Spark now would we? You have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, you cannot keep nibbling away at rules just to accommodate one or two talented individuals.

[parabellum]

Thanks Tanker, very interesting link, I suspect the position of Army Sergeant Major will rarely leave the Guards brigade! ;)

[smujsmith]

I did 30 years in the RAF. Admittedly some time ago, and I never came up against problems with tattoos, gays or other deviants. As I left in 1997, and, friends who serve today tell me, an old dinosaur like myself would not survive in today's RAF. So be it, I'm not ashamed that I did my time, I'm not ashamed that the standards of my day do not comply with modern, PC practises. I'm very glad that I left when I did though.

Smudge

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks Tanker, very interesting link, I suspect the position of Army Sergeant Major will rarely leave the Guards brigade!

I reckon you are right. Personally I think the whole thing is a guards plot to deprive the RLC (previously the RAOC) from having the most senior warrant officers in the army, namely their conductors. Must have irked the Garrison Sergeant Major, London District, a guards appointment, to know that a jumped up spanner basher was senior to him!

[Melchett01]

I don't see what the issue is. Every organisation, from the Royal Family down to the Cub Scouts has its own culture, rules and regulations. If you want to join, you must then accept that you have to toe the line; if you don't want to abide by the cultures, rules and regulations then either don't join or if already a member, be prepared for any fallout.

As Sir Alex Ferguson noted, no player was bigger than the Club (Man Utd for those unfamiliar) and he would happily drop his star player if he was behaving in a way detrimental to the Club's performance, standards or values. This lady's tattoos say nothing about her as an individual or her competence, although I might suggest a comment on her judgement - I suspect there are plenty of customer facing organisations that might also have an issue - but she is not bigger than the RAF no matter how able, and her tattoos do fall foul of the RAF's cultures, rules and regulations. It really is that simple.

[wiggy]

Melchett

I suspect there are plenty of customer facing organisations that might also have an issue

There are, there are certainly plenty of airlines currently recruiting who have a ban on visible tattoos for customer facing staff.

[unmanned_droid]

She lost 6 stone in her journey to get to selection. Good on her! That must show significant motivation.

I hope she decides that journey is worth getting those particular tattoos removed.

[AR1]

Introduction of regulation Hijab should cover it. - Would also make todays Airforce more inclusive culturally.

[teeteringhead]

Introduction of regulation Hijab should cover it. - Would also make todays Airforce more inclusive culturally. I think you'll find there already is one .........

...... sure I've seen one - must look for a photo to post.

Can't find a photo (yet), but from AP 1358 (RAF Dress Regs) Para 0317c: c. Hijabs. Muslim females may wear the approved pattern Hijab under uniform headdress except when operational, training and health and safety considerations dictate otherwise. It is always worn without cap badge and is worn indoors (without hat). It is to be worn in
such a way that rank slides are visible at all times.

[BEagle]

There's certainly a regulation turban for our Sikh chaps. Back in my UAS QFI-ing days at RAF Abingdon, we had a Sikh lad and I had great fun insisting that stores provided him with one...

"A what, Sir?"
"RAF pattern turban, Sikhs for the use of!"
"Isn't such a thing!"
"Is - get one please!"

So they did - but by the time it arrived the boss had read him his tea leaves at the 6-monthly 'Night of the Long Knives' (which he'd introduced to weed out students who had poor Progress/Attitude/Technique scores) and he was no longer with us. I've no idea how he used to do so, but he managed to get his hair and 'sleeping turban' under a normal bone dome.

No doubt there's still a single RAF turban on the stores shelf at 'Dalton Barracks'...

[Pontius Navigator]

No doubt there's still a single RAF turban on the stores shelf at 'Dalton Barracks'

No demand Sir, it was sent to surplus sales, it will have 6 months to get a new one.

[The Oberon]

Our Sikh engine Cpl. had to LPO his turban material and have it made up. He had 2, light blue for No1 and navy for working. Being engines, he was known to all and sundry as "Turbine"

[Ken Scott]

As I recall there was a Flt Lt Singh on 633 Sqdn who wore a turban on the ground complete with badge. Sadly KIA on the attack on the V2 rocket fuel plant in Norway.

[langleybaston]

QUOTE:

I reckon you are right. Personally I think the whole thing is a guards plot to deprive the RLC (previously the RAOC) from having the most senior warrant officers in the army, namely their conductors. Must have irked the Garrison Sergeant Major, London District, a guards appointment, to know that a jumped up spanner basher was senior to him!

The seniority of the Conductor is a widely held myth.
Yes, the appointment was the first [by two years] in 1879, when Conductors were Warranted.
Yes they have always been in the most senior sub-set of Warrant Officers [the members of this set have varied historically]
Yes they are alphabetically before such as Master Gunners and Garrison Sgt Majors

But no, seniority as an individual WO I. only stems from the date of his/her Warrant and, in relevant circumstances, from the job description.

The myth has been nurtured for many years and will no doubt soldier on.

[Tankertrashnav]

The RLC are still nurturing it!

Contents (http://www.rlc-conductor.info/)

[langleybaston]

Yes, I told that site years ago.

Right from the word go, Army QVRs, KRs and now QRs all spell out the dreadful truth to the Conductors ....... at best it was only alphabetical in a group without a primus inter pares.

[Union Jack]

AR1et al - Please see carefully worded Post # 5.....:ok:

Jack

[Tinribs]

It is many years since I was a flight commander dealing with new recruits at Hereford.
The philosophy then, and probably still, was that with many applicants for each slot.we could seek the very best or take those nearly so but less likely to give us problems later
We opted for the second group not to save ourselves trouble but to allow us to devote our available time to those we had. The reduction in problems meant more time for those who needed it
Young people under training stress often need staff attention and such help produces dividends for all
Recruits need an amalgam of the skills and wit to do the job and the personal qualities to do well in the service, both are vital. Part of this doing well in the service is an willingness to submit to some or all of the service demands. Of course sometimes the demands are not acceptable to the individual and they opt to leave. Successful training needs recruitment of those likely to avoid these pitfalls

[Haraka]

Indeed, As Napoleon said:
"Our best potential Generals resign as Captains"

[Brian 48nav]

So I had an Air Chief Marshal's baton in my nav' bag after all!

[Herod]

...or, as Mae West would say; "Is that an Air Chief Marshal's baton in your pocket, Brian, or are you just glad to see me?"

[taxydual]

So I had an Air Chief Marshal's baton in my nav' bag after all!

Yes, and he wants it back!

[Brian 48nav]

Herod.. I hope the only ACM I know doesn't say that when I see him at the 48 Sqn centenary next month!

[langleybaston]

is there a real baton ......... a physical object for tapping, pointing, thrusting, gesticulating?

[taxydual]

Batons.

I think there is.

Held by 5 Star ranks only.

Certainly Field Marshal HRH The Duke of Kent carried one at last years Cenotaph Services. Bit of a juggling act, baton, wreath, salute etc

[Pontius Navigator]

Slight digression - swagger sticks.

At ITS the staff officers carried swagger sticks. Now I recall reading in QRs that only officers on the staff of ITS could carry them, not sure about Cranditz, ITF was the perfect officers' accoutrement, brown gloves, white handkerchief, black swagger stick; do no work, pounce about looking pretty ��

[Wander00]

Thought RAF Regiment officers carried canes/swagger sticks - SGDI and JGDI carried them at Cranditz in the 60s

[Haraka]

Wander 00 I always admired the way our Regiment D.I.s could march, at the same time flicking their opened pace sticks over and over alongside to ensure the measured stride.
(And also simultaneously keep up a repartee reducing the "Young Gentlemen" to near hysterics) .

[Pontius Navigator]

Haraka - backwards.

Our WO was bemedalled 5ft 6 dynamo. He could start at the back of the marching column of 400 cadets, facing to the rear, and call out timing, dress and whatever, until he reached the front of the column.

He also gave me a life-long lesson on humanity and effective discipline. I remember out Regt SNCO but sadly not the WO.

This was South Cerney end 1961, early 1962.

[BigDotStu]

Don't know if it still applies but there was, I believe, a time when you wouldn't be accepted into SF if you had tattoos.

Appears not - at least for the RM I know who passed the SBS board recently - but his tattoos aren't visible even in short sleeve order...

[Brian 48nav]

The WO 4 years later at S Cerney was Mr Peake, who was probably no more than 5'6", could he have been the same man?

In the 70s he was managing a shop ( IIRC electrical/hardware ) in Cricklade Street, Cirencester.

[izod tester]

Perhaps if she brushed up her IT skills she could be accepted despite the tattoos:
New Army cyber warriors allowed long hair - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12203745/New-Army-cyber-warriors-allowed-long-hair.html)

[Pontius Navigator]

Brian, maybe. Our Sgt was Bennett. I can't remember why but we thought he could benefit from a bicycle as he had to cover a lot of ground going between flights etc.

He thanked us but asked if we minded if he sold it as he could use the cash.

[Dougie M]

Our drill Sgt was called Wadman and on one inspection in the No2 mess at Cerney he declared that my white webbing had been painted - which it had. The Inspecting Officer wet a fingertip and drew it across the belt and showed the Sgt the white deposit of Meltonian shoe cleaner that I had carefully applied over the emulsion paint. "You are mistaken Sergeant" he said. I stood straight faced while the Sgt's eyes writhed like stricken oysters. Curiously all our block suddenly had to change rooms with the Iraqi studes to clean up all the date pips and other detritus before the next inspection. I think that suggestion must have come from Wadman.

[Wander00]

Anyone remember Sgt Malcolm Perkins and F Sgt Jimmy Black MM from A Sqn at Cranditz in the 60s? I recall that due to the very cold and snowbound winter of early 63 even the Junior Entry were give a weekend pass, and before we had been paid. Sgt Perkins offered to lend any cadet in 88A I think it was £10 so they could get home for the weekend. Monday morning there he was screaming obscenities at us again