Defence and the EU

[Genstabler]

David Cameron and the inners, including some senior ex-military officers, maintain that our national security will be compromised by Brexit. I can't see it as we would still be part of NATO and other intelligence and security coalitions, but I have been out of the loop for 20 years. I am personally strongly in favour of leaving and regaining our lost sovereignty. Am I missing something?

[Finnpog]

NATO Membership? ... check

5 Eyes? ... check

Council of Berne? ... check

G8? ... check.



Just because we do not want to live in the same house as our siblings & neighbours, does not mean that we do not want to be friends.

[Herod]

Just because we do not want to live in the same house as our siblings & neighbours, does not mean that we do not want to be friends

That's as good a quote as any for the Leave campaign to use. Says it all, really.

[Courtney Mil]

I keep hearing this argument about peace in Europe being due to NATO not the EU. NATO's role in maintaining peace is very different to that of the EU. The military is sent in when the politicians fail. So far the EU politicians have done a pretty good job of not needing the military apart from the outward facing issues, which is not what the EU is claiming.

[Arcanum]

Bosnia? Kosovo? Not sure the EU covered themselves in glory there.

From a different perspective, should we be thanking the EU for Ukraine?

[edit] It could be argued that's outward facing, but given the direct impact on the EU, I'd say we had a pretty strong interest in resolving (Bosnia, Kosovo) or not provoking (Ukraine)

[Courtney Mil]

The EU has no role to play in the security of nations outside the Union and probably doesn't need to be involved, especially when the UN and NATO are formally engaged - the complaints about EU interference would have been even worse. Start by understanding the difference between the roles of the global players before deploying confused arguments.

Is this thread a thinly disguised plug for Brexit or a genuine military aviation discussion? I think I can guess how it's going to degenerate.

[melmothtw]

Just because we do not want to live in the same house as our siblings & neighbours, does not mean that we do not want to be friends

That's as good a quote as any for the Leave campaign to use. Says it all, really.

A good quote for the Scottish independence campaign also.

[BEagle]

Courtney, I agree, mon vieux.

Unfortunately most of the ignorant little Englanders ranting about leaving the EU weren't around before we joined the EU, so cannot have seen how things have changed for the better since then.

Remember the joys of European travel in the '60s, with all those frontier queues, sterling restrictions etc.? As well as the cost of international air travel to 'The Continent'?

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, won't as he was only 9 years old when we joined the Common Market.

'Loss of sovereignty' is a nice rabble-rousing turn of phrase, but is utter bolleaux. DC has already secured much greater protection from attempts to inflict unreasonable €urocracy on the UK - and by remaining a member of the EU, we can continue to improve the UK's position over the coming years. But if the majority were stupid enough to vote for the UK to leave the EU, we would risk enormous disruption to our economic interests and a very uncertain future.....:(

[Genstabler]

Beags,
You do not help your argument by insulting those who hold a different view. I am far from an ignorant little Englander and I was around for a very long time before the EU. DC achieved bugger all in his attempts to persuade the mass of other leaders in the EU to give us enough guarantees to convince doubters that staying in was safe for us.

Back to my initial question. Is there any substance in the assertion that leaving will degrade our security?

[Heathrow Harry]

not directly... but I suspect that co-operation on a lot of things will slow down or stop and the rest of Europe won't be minded to do us any favours

I wouldn't want to working in Broughton long -term for example

[t43562]

The Romans seemed to be able to suffer one giant defeat after another, to field one army then another and another until they won. So a good economy is security in my opinion. Lets say that NATO is collective military security and the EU is collective economic security.

Another aspect is that, coming from Africa, I don't think it's secure to have unstable states in the neighborhood. Hence investment in getting Eastern European countries into a secure state with economic assistance, application of standards in law and technical issues, free flowing trade and an exchange of people and ideas - that all seems far more like security to me.

When a smaller country sees the bear on one side and the EU on the other, the EU offers economic benefits which I think allow it to resist the pressure that Russia could put on it. Hence there is a good reason to shore up the EU and be a part of that.

[beardy]

I believe, but am not sure, that leaving the EU would mean foregoing the easy transfer of terror suspects across borders by means of the European Arrest Warrant. I believe it would have to be replaced by separately negotiated extradition treaties with individual countries. That may in turn afford better protections for innocent individuals given the different natures of the judicial systems (accusatory vs inquisitorial.)

[Roland Pulfrew]

DC has already secured much greater protection from attempts to inflict unreasonable €urocracy on the UK

Really? What has he actually acheived, apart from imitate Neville Chamberlain (and I don't need to be that old to remember that; or the outcome)? None of his triumphant paper waiving is of any value until treaty reform is signed and ratified - and anyone who believes that is going survive contact with the EU parliament is living in cloud cuckoo land, particularly as its not going to happen anytime before the EU Referendum.

As for: But if the majority were stupid enough to vote for the UK to remain in the EU, we would risk enormous disruption to our economic interests and a very uncertain future I've changed two words for you.

Little Britisher and damn proud of it.

[dead_pan]

The EU did an effective job in imposing sanctions against Russia following their annexation of Crimea (something which would have been much more difficult to impose/coordinate if we'd just been a loose affiliation of countries in a trading bloc), also in helping bring Iran in from the cold. Defence isn't all about pointy stuff which goes bang.

[melmothtw]

Little Britisher and damn proud of it.

That makes you a patriot. Of course, if you said the same about Scotland and independence you'd be a nationalist. Go figure.

For myself, the fact that Farage, Galloway, and Putin (probably) all support a UK exit has pretty much made-up my mind that we should stay in.

[BATCO]

Beags
An uncharacteristically poor example:
"Remember the joys of European travel in the '60s, with all those frontier queues, ..............?"

Before I turn to that, I haven't yet decided how to vote on 23rd.

The example chosen would seem to me to fall into the Project Fear category along with ABTA's claim in DT this morning that leaving the EU would end "Travel[ling] through Europe without being stopped and checked at borders".

I do not believe this: I would expect that (out of EU) we would be able to travel throughout most of the EU (and non-EU Schengen) as freely as, let's say, an American travelling from France to Belgium or Sweden to Norway. I cannot foresee EU states erecting frontier posts just to be able to check passing Brits.

As a point of interest, I do not experience travel in/out of UK without being stopped and checked now. In or Out I do not see that changing.

Kind regards
MP

[BEagle]

Little Britisher and damn proud of it.

Britisher, undoubtedly. But 'little', Roly old bean? ;)

Jingoistic flag-flappers will only have themselves to blame once import tariffs start appearing on European imports - and when they stand fuming in 'non-EU' passport lanes, perhaps they will amuse themselves singing 'Land of Hope and Glory' whenever they enter the rest of Europe.

[melmothtw]

I do not believe this: I would expect that (out of EU) we would be able to travel throughout most of the EU (and non-EU Schengen) as freely as, let's say, an American travelling from France to Belgium or Sweden to Norway. I cannot foresee EU states erecting frontier posts just to be able to check passing Brits.

No offence BATCO, but I'd sooner the UK didn't vote to leave the EU based on what you believe, expect and foresee might happen. The fact is that no one knows, and pointing this out is prudent rather than fear-mongering.

(BTW, it is interesting that those folks who are saying that the pro-EU camp are now using 'fear' tactics, are largely the same folks that said Scotland would lose the pound and all it's jobs, etc, only a few months ago).