Long Service Medal for Officers

[Welcome1]

Guys. i remember about a year ago reading that the LSGC medal or at least some form of LS medal was to be awarded to officers with 15yrs or more service.

Did anything come of this or was it quietly dropped.

[heights good]

This is all I could find.

Personally I think it's a bad idea; if everyone gets a medal then it carries no weight or significance with those that receive them i.e. jubilee medals.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-recognition-for-reserve-and-regular-military-service

[Avtur]

if everyone gets a medal then it carries no weight or significance

Almost agree, but the LS&GC medal carries significance as it depicts that the wearer has completed 15 years service without being caught for doing anything wrong. It is not just a token medal (Jubilee Medal) for being "in" for five years, and the majority of those who receive it are proud to wear it; particularly those who get the clasp for 30 years service.

[Background Noise]

Well it wouldn't be 'everyone' getting the medal - just those who have served for the required time. I'm not sure 15 years would be long enough though - I would think it would need to recognise service some way beyond the IPP to make any sense.

And anyway, I thought officers were expected to show good conduct. :hmm:

[Melchett01]

This is all I could find.

Personally I think it's a bad idea; if everyone gets a medal then it carries no weight or significance with those that receive them i.e. jubilee medals.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-recognition-for-reserve-and-regular-military-service


Everybody already does get it. That is unless you are in the single cohort of direct entry officer. If you join in the ranks you get it; if you then commission from the ranks with sufficient time under your belt but less than you need to get it purely in the ranks, you then get it as an officer. If you're a Reservist, of whatever rank, you apparently get it. It seems the only people not to get it are officers coming straight in off the street.

It's always struck me that we have gone too far in the opposite direction to the US, and it seems any medal these days should only be awarded having sacrificed at least 2 internal organs whilst living face down in a muddy ditch for at least a year whilst being force fed rat packs and being made to listen to the speeches of Gordon Brown on endless loops. Even then some would complain it was still too easy.

Whilst my experience of medals is limited, from what I have seen, critics seem to be divided between those who already have medals and don't want to mount another (pull the ladder up Jack as it were), those who don't have any medals and are envious, and collectors who seem to think that medals exist solely to give them a hobby.

[Tankertrashnav]

and collectors who seem to think that medals exist solely to give them a hobby

Dont forget dealers - medals made up a fair proportion of my income for 30 years! I remember reading a letter from some retired colonel or other who was complaining about "this trafficking in medals!" The fact is that a fair proportion of servicemen and women couldn't give a rats about their medals once they leave, and see no reason why they shouldn't raise some money on them. British medals are more valuable to the collector than almost all countries' medals because they are relatively scarcely awarded, and also for the most part they are named, and thus have potential for research.

Re officers' LS&GC, I tend to agree with Background Noise's second point.

[Fareastdriver]

officers with 15yrs or more service.

An automatic 20% discount on their bar bill.

[Pontius Navigator]

FED, only because they drink more?

Or because they have learnt the hard truth that their livers can't take it so they don't drink?

edit

Of course stopping drinking =100% discount.

[SOSL]

heights good,

Not all Jubilee medals were given to everyone as the Golden medal was.

In 1977, the Silver Jubilee medal was allocated on a limited basis to unit commanders to distribute amongst the unit personnel. I was in command of a Flight of about 120 men and women and I was allocated one medal to hand out for the whole flight.

I recommended a Jnr Tech, who was probably the most talented propulsion fitter I ever came across in my career. But he had a phobia about promotion exams. He had taken the Cpl's exam about 4 or 5 times and barely got beyond writing his name on the answer paper before he froze.

Recommendation accepted; he was the only one on the flight who wore the medal and the girls and guys respected him for it.

Rgds SOS

[Riskman]

Re the initial post by Welcome1;

This officer appears to have LS&GCM and clasp and then got to at least AVM (going by the bit of scrambled egg visible). Who is he btw?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/news-in-pictures-mmgrk83kb

[Wrathmonk]

Who is he btw

Air Officer Scotland, AVM Ross Paterson perhaps? Can't find another picture that matches his medals though.

[Danny42C]

Avtur (#2) et al,

"When Everbody is Somebody, then Nobody is Anybody" (W.S.Gilbert).

I've got two year's airman service, 26 year's commissioned service (no detected crime) plus 45 years on retired list (67 years seniority as a Flt.Lt.)

What's in it for me ?

Danny.

[MPN11]

Nothing new for you, Danny. But then you already have a collection of significnt medals, so you mustn't be greedy. And think of the cost of having everything remounted!! :)

[gijoe]

So all of those with a commission who have never gone on ops, hid under their desks, dodged the redundancy bullets etc get a LS&GC - the GC for commissioned is a given as said above. There are plenty around still.

Yet those who are repeatedly doing LITTENs, KIPION, SHADERs, etc are told 'it is all too difficult to work out and don't expect a decision soon and you might not like it.

See the other thread. WTF?

[Bob Viking]

gijoe

What exactly is your beef? Is it against Officers or against people who don't deploy? Or is it a general whinge about the lack of medal for Ops such as Shader?

I'm not arguing just struggling to see what your point is.

BV

[Fareastdriver]

So all of those with a commission who have never gone on ops, hid under their desks,

If I had had forced to have Air Force life like that I would deserve a medal.

[Tankertrashnav]

It certainly looks like AVM Paterson, wrathmonk. However I've googled him and found a few pics where his medal ribbons are visible and they appear not to include the RAF LS & GC. Very odd, because this chap is quite definitely wearing the RAF LS & GC and clasp, which must be a first for a 2 star I'd have thought, whoever he is.

[Vortex_Generator]

Saw AM Sir Baz North in uniform recently, complete with pilots wings, RAF Reg't mudguards and LS gong plus bar.

[teeteringhead]

One assumes there is a "not before" date to save strain (spelled m-o-n-e-y) on production, and to avoid giving the odd bauble to old farts comme moi.;) [seem to remember reading that somewhere but can't find it - but then there's an increasing number of things I can't find these days .........:8]

So my 37 yrs regular commissioned service (presumably 35 as under 21 won't count!) and nearly another 10 as a Reservist will give me nothing more to pin on my shabby blazer in November ...... :ugh:

Ah well, make do with the current 5, and won't need the cost of another miniature and remounting! :ok:

[Dan Winterland]

We're getting more like the Yanks every day.

[MPN11]

We're getting more like the Yanks every day.
We don't wear shiny plastic shoes yet, so there's still hope.

[charliegolf]

We don't wear shiny plastic shoes yet, so there's still hope.

Officers never wore shiny shoes full stop!:E

CG

[Nugget90]

An Anomaly not Corrected

The anomaly that existed for many years was that Regular Service (RS) officers in the UK Armed Services had not had their long, voluntary service recognised by the award of a Long Service medal as had almost every other branch in these Services, Voluntary Reserves, Cadet Forces, Fire and Police Services, etc. Then, quite recently, the Government announced that this anomaly would be addressed in that every RS officer who had completed 15 years service, without blemish, would be awarded that Service Arm's Long Service & Good Conduct Medal.

However, any RS officer who had retired before July 2014 would not so qualify, which thereby created a new anomaly whereby those who had served earlier and retired before this date would not have their service recognised in medallic form.

I am one who served between 1959 and 1979, in which more than 15 years were as an RS officer, and I would really like my time in the RAF to be recognised by means of a medal, for this would then be the only medal I would have received from my Country. I was proud to have served, and I would like to be able to display this fact on occasions when medals can be worn, most usually on Remembrance Sunday but on a few other occasions also. Without such a visible token I appear no different from those who have never served in HM Armed Forces, which irks me because I have pride in what I did when in uniform and what I achieved.

In the 1960s and 1970s there were few opportunities for earning medals, generally only those who served overseas on campaigns where risk and rigour existed could qualify, so there was quite a dearth of medals at that time amongst such servicemen and women. At the time of HM's Silver Jubilee word went around that a medal was being stuck to commemorate this event, but the severely restricted number that could be awarded meant that there was huge disappointment as we learnt that most of us would not get one. Fortunately, the qualification rules changed for the subsequent Jubilees and so - remembering that the UK does not have a Defence Medal or anything similar - many who had served for at least five years by and on the appropriate dates actually received a medal, something to wear.

For those of you who read this and already have a medal - campaign or Jubilee - it may not seem quite so important as it does to me, but I do ask how it can be that someone who today holds the same rank as I when I retired and has served for as long as I can deserve a medal whilst I do not. I would be surprised if there are not others who feel as I do and would like this anomaly to be corrected.

A Petition was started to widen the scope to include those of us who served in former years but this has now been brought to a halt due to the dissolution of Parliament. Whether it will start up again I have no way of knowing: we shall see.

[judge11]

Nugget90 - wholeheartedly agree!

[Yellow Sun]

Personally, were I to receive it I would just chuck it in the drawer, however if it is to be awarded then all should receive it. Otherwise it is just another piece of grudging parsimony.

YS

[MPN11]

I'm with Nugget90, as I expounded on another thread.

1965-1994, so only 29 years of Regular commissioned service. Never went to a 'warry place', despite volunteering on several occasions. No Jubilees either.

I intend, as I said elsewhere, to purchase a replica* to eventually pass on to my son (along with 3 other generations-worth of decorations and campaign medals going back to 1882).

I can understand the Government's parsimony to a small extent, and likewise the administrative burden associated with backdating the award. I shall just bypass that, unofficially, for my son whilst explaining my oersonal rationale for buying an unentitled replica.

* (PS. Cased and displayed at home, along with the others, and NOT worn or on public display.)

[EngAl]

I have and LS&GCM received as an officer as I had 12yr airman's service and completed the 15 while an officer. Although I served from 62 to 2000 I was resigned to that being my only medal, but received 2 NATO medals during my last tour at AFSOUTH. The qualification for those was 30 days in theatre or 3 months in the HQ where I was. So, a pretty insignificant collection, but Nugget is quite right about the effect. Whenever I attended the remembrance service at a local village church myself and a retired brigadier where singled out to take the collection.

[MG]

What a bunch of whingers. You're in one of 2 camps: 'I should have one even those I left 40 years ago' or 'I would chuck it away if they gave it to me'. It's a recognition of service, above and beyond any operational service and it shows that 'you've put the time in' and sacrificed weekends, kids birthdays etc. Just accept that it's now given to all and wear it with pride. You all sound like you're in a doctor's waitiroom trying to 'out symptom' each other.

[Tankertrashnav]

Quite happy with my single GSM. Six month's service at Khormaksar in 66 - only "wound" a bad case of sunburn after falling asleep on the beach at Tarshine (I believe that was called "self inflicted injury"). Still its nice to have one. When the family medals eventually get framed it will be a bit outshone by my son's group of seven, though!

[gijoe]

'What exactly is your beef? Is it against Officers or against people who don't deploy? Or is it a general whinge about the lack of medal for Ops such as Shader?'

Bob,

My point being, and it wasn't put well I admit, it seems ok to give out a medal to people who may or may not have been anywhere, but behaved themselves or didn't get caught...but then claim there is no money for recognition of those that have spent 6 months or longer on OPS doing the job they are supposedly trained for.

Anti-officer? No - vested interest not to be. Been one long enough to know good and bad ones.

G

[Onceapilot]

I think we have been around the bazaars on the subject of the pathetic response of MOD / UK Gov and the LSGC Medal insult to retired service personnel. :yuk: However, it is worth saying here that the generation of a new gong tends to depend strongly on the support of ARMY high rankers. They tend to view RAF involvement in any conflict as superficial and, OPs where the RAF have the primary involvement rarely get support. Additionally, where gongs are declared, the qualifying criteria are based upon the ARMY deployment or rotation dates. The RAF has a history of being short-changed on this basis. :oh:

5port

[Riskman]

OAP,

You are absolutely right. However, on the plus side, I've stayed in some nice hotels. ;)

Don't dig in, check in.

Riskman

[Bob Viking]

gijoe.

In the same way that I don't begrudge someone else getting a good deal I don't think it should be one medal or the other. I think an LS medal for officers is long overdue. I also think it is a travesty that there is no Shader medal yet (I am entitled to an LS but no Shader medal).

My other point is my advice is to not be so quick to judge those with no Op medals. I almost hate wearing No 1s nowadays because of the shame of no decent ribbons. It's not my fault that I've never deployed on an Op (believe me I tried) but pouring scorn on all of us does you a disservice.

I admire (and secretly envy) anyone who has done the job for real but everyone's service is valuable. And remember no matter how much of a war hero you are there is always someone with a bigger d1ck!

BV

[gijoe]

gijoe.

In the same way that I don't begrudge someone else getting a good deal I don't think it should be one medal or the other. I think an LS medal for officers is long overdue. I also think it is a travesty that there is no Shader medal yet (I am entitled to an LS but no Shader medal).

My other point is my advice is to not be so quick to judge those with no Op medals. I almost hate wearing No 1s nowadays because of the shame of no decent ribbons. It's not my fault that I've never deployed on an Op (believe me I tried) but pouring scorn on all of us does you a disservice.

I admire (and secretly envy) anyone who has done the job for real but everyone's service is valuable. And remember no matter how much of a war hero you are there is always someone with a bigger d1ck!

BV

Bob,

The SHADER situation is plainly poor - and even poorer leadership by seniors to then say there is no cash, but we are giving out the LS to officers...many, many of which will have avoided volunteering or dreamt up some reason of the dicky ticker variety to not go on ops. There are loads of all 3 colours and I am sure serving members will know some.

But, Bob, well done for volunteering and trying to go, and I genuinely mean that.

G

[Tankertrashnav]

Officers never wore shiny shoes full stop!

One always had shiny shoes when one was a Regiment officer. One's batman would have got it in the neck if they weren't!

;)

[IcePaq]

Give it at 30 years and it picks up considerable weight.

[Red Line Entry]

Cepaq,

That's what the clasps are for (every further 10 years). The Duke of Edinburgh has six!

[Jimlad1]

I think the scandal of a lack of SHADER medal is starting to become a genuine issue for a lot of people.

It highlights the worst attributes of elements of HM Forces - pigheadedness, reluctance to change and reluctance to think innovatively about how to recognise effort. The problem lies squarely in the military arena to fix.

[minigundiplomat]

Reading this thread, I can't get the picture of Mutley out of my head......

[teeteringhead]

Give it at 30 years and it picks up considerable weight. Did it not used to be 18 years for the medal then 36 for the clasp?

[gijoe]

We're getting more like the Yanks every day.

Balls - we are nothing like them. Nowhere near.

[gijoe]

Reading this thread, I can't get the picture of Mutley out of my head......

At least Mutley had one to wear. Many juniors will have multiple six monthers in sandy or kebaby places on operations (SHADER) and all that that entails. And nothing to show for it.

Jim30 hits the nail on the head - leaders, grow some and make a decision.

[ValMORNA]

Nil Desperandum! It took some 50 years for service in the Suez Canal Zone 1951-54 to be rewarded with a medal. After a long campaign the Government finally saw the light in 2003. :ok:

[Melchett01]

I think the scandal of a lack of SHADER medal is starting to become a genuine issue for a lot of people.

It highlights the worst attributes of elements of HM Forces - pigheadedness, reluctance to change and reluctance to think innovatively about how to recognise effort. The problem lies squarely in the military arena to fix.

Rumour control - well this is a rumour site - says work is being done on a SHADER gong, but there are disagreements over several areas such as whether you have to have been in Iraq or Syria or have flown over it, or do places like Jordan & Kuwait count as well. And if you go for a broader JOA award, do ground crew and support staff in places like Cyprus get it, and what about RPAS crews at Waddington etc etc etc. If that's correct, and there are substantial differences I can see it taking a while to reach agreement.

[Onceapilot]

Melchy, you and I know those are merely the variables around which a reasonable set of criteria, based on appropriate merit towards the OP, can be declared. ;) However, going on the despicable way that virtually all retired Officers were treated by the criteria for the new LSGC medal, you can bet that the qualifying dates for SHADER will start from 1 APR 17, due to financial constraints! :yuk: :yuk: :mad:

OAP

[The Oberon]

Rumour control - well this is a rumour site - says work is being done on a SHADER gong, but there are disagreements over several areas such as whether you have to have been in Iraq or Syria or have flown over it, or do places like Jordan & Kuwait count as well. And if you go for a broader JOA award, do ground crew and support staff in places like Cyprus get it, and what about RPAS crews at Waddington etc etc etc. If that's correct, and there are substantial differences I can see it taking a while to reach agreement.

There is a precedent with the SAM. If you went operational south of ASI, you got a rosette. If you stayed on ASI, medal only. Surely not that difficult to set a rosette trip line?

[Melchett01]

There is a precedent with the SAM. If you went operational south of ASI, you got a rosette. If you stayed on ASI, medal only. Surely not that difficult to set a rosette trip line?

Also as per the OSM (Afghanistan) where service in country got you a clasp whilst service outside of Afghanistan just got you the medal.

Onceapilot,

I must confess that frankly the way we do medals is an utter mystery, that seems to defy common sense in the name of who knows what. All I can think is that money, politics and inter-service rivalry are all equal, or possibly greater, considerations than the concepts of risk and rigour. I've always said I thought we should ease up a little on our medals policy. In the current climate where CO's have increasingly limited authority to run their units as they see fit and where finance is primus inter pares, medals assume a potentially increased importance in recognising individual's efforts in a system that seems set up to make life as hard as possible.

[Onceapilot]

I think you are quite right Melchy. Personally, I believe the RAF has been very poor at fighting for appropriate awards for its personnel. As for not awarding the LSGC to pre-2014 retirees on the basis of "cost, too-difficult" and "its a new award"... :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

OAP

[ian16th]

Nil Desperandum! It took some 50 years for service in the Suez Canal Zone 1951-54 to be rewarded with a medal. After a long campaign the Government finally saw the light in 2003. :ok:

As with the Cyprus 1963-4 GSM, awarded 2016, 51 years after the event.

Never heard of any 'campaign' for it, it took me completely by surprise.

[Melchett01]

I think you are quite right Melchy. Personally, I believe the RAF has been very poor at fighting for appropriate awards for its personnel. As for not awarding the LSGC to pre-2014 retirees on the basis of "cost, too-difficult" and "its a new award"... :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

OAP

I know that when it comes to staff work, an efficient staff officer will plagiarise previously successful work, but I have to say what I find really irritating in the case of medals is that almost every piece of work starts with the Churchillian quote on medals casting shadows as well as glittering. It's trite and it strikes me as a having been adopted as the default line to take when its all just too difficult and the criteria is set to ensure the lowest possible cost and effort to recognise service. You just know that any medals policy that starts with that is going to be contentious, vice any policy that they think will fly being rolled out with great fanfare about 'HM being pleased to .... '.

[gijoe]

So Ebola was good enough but no an Op that has seen many individuals flitting between the ME and the UK for nearly 4 years? Utter bollax leadership from Senior Officers.

Questions about risk and rigour? Well, there was enough rigour on my last interaction that I shall not be doing another one. I had nothing left to give after 6 months.

[Onceapilot]

I know that when it comes to staff work, an efficient staff officer will plagiarise previously successful work, but I have to say what I find really irritating in the case of medals is that almost every piece of work starts with the Churchillian quote on medals casting shadows as well as glittering. It's trite and it strikes me as a having been adopted as the default line to take when its all just too difficult and the criteria is set to ensure the lowest possible cost and effort to recognise service. You just know that any medals policy that starts with that is going to be contentious, vice any policy that they think will fly being rolled out with great fanfare about 'HM being pleased to .... '.

Again, you are correct. There is an unspoken limitation on awards. Commanders soon know that it is useless to try and staff all deserving awards. I have seen whole campaigns where people within my sphere of flying operations never saw any recognition beyond the general "gong". It must be said that few service personnel receive recognition for their skill and bravery. There have been some high awards but, in my experience, the majority of skill and bravery went unrecognised by high command of the RAF. :* Just my opinion.

OAP

[Jimlad1]

Its the same for KIPION where a substantial number of the RN MCMV force are onto their 5,6,7th plus tour in as many years in Bahrain, working in a very challenging JOA. A medal fr this specific deployment would go a very long way to assisting with goodwill in this very stretched and gapped pool of manpower.

[Melchett01]

Its the same for KIPION where a substantial number of the RN MCMV force are onto their 5,6,7th plus tour in as many years in Bahrain, working in a very challenging JOA. A medal fr this specific deployment would go a very long way to assisting with goodwill in this very stretched and gapped pool of manpower.

'Ah, but it'll be too expensive - we are in austerity you know. Plus, it'll never fly with the medals committee in terms of risk and rigour as they probably haven't been living in a puddle, under fire, and in range of DPRK or Iranian ballistic missiles, sustained only by biscuits brown whilst working 25 hours a day having each lost at least one internal organ all the while performing secondary duties during the half hour they get off once every second month. And in any case, it's what they get paid for. What more do they want?' said an unnamed MOD spokesman dashing off to lunch at his club on Friday afternoon.

[gijoe]

'Ah, but it'll be too expensive - we are in austerity you know. Plus, it'll never fly with the medals committee in terms of risk and rigour as they probably haven't been living in a puddle, under fire, and in range of DPRK or Iranian ballistic missiles, sustained only by biscuits brown whilst working 25 hours a day having each lost at least one internal organ all the while performing secondary duties during the half hour they get off once every second month. And in any case, it's what they get paid for. What more do they want?' said an unnamed MOD spokesman dashing off to lunch at his club on Friday afternoon.

Binning the divisive Op Allowance would cover it.

[Pontius Navigator]

BYO, you have to buy your own miniatures. I think you have to pay for medal mounting too. The actual cost, looking at commercial prices is not too expensive.

Pare it back to free issue for men, purchase by officers (as they do for uniform) and for retirees of all ranks.

[Onceapilot]

Binning the divisive Op Allowance would cover it.

You know why the Op Allowance is there? It is a UK Poli's ploy to bury the fact that Uncle Sams servicemen work income tax-free on Ops. The UK answer to that was an OA rate that just about covered a very junior servicemans tax level. This allows gob****e UK Polis to BS their way out of that criticism and, they have worked to make OA as limited as possible ever since. :mad:

OAP

[Bob Viking]

gijoe.

As with your earlier post why would the answer be to stop certain people from getting a good deal? In this case an Op Allowance. Surely the answer is not to stop it for the few but to pay it to everyone?

It's the same with the medals we are discussing. Be it an LS for officers or a Shader medal. I would rather too many people got one than worry about a few hangers on getting one that are not truly deserving. There are ways to distinguish between those that truly operated in harms way and those that fulfilled a support role.

Whoever says we are becoming like the Americans is wrong but there must be a happy medium somewhere. Having just returned from a business trip to the US they leave us in the dirt when it comes to treating veterans. Is it really right that we can have people turning up to a rememberance service with nothing but a unit tie to show for decades of service?

I would not wish to devalue any medals that have been earned with blood sweat and tears. However, when I hear of people denigrating the efforts of others with less bling than themselves it makes me think very poorly of them. Any time someone on here refers to a Cold War warrior I think they come across as a total knob.

Timing is everything in the military. Anything from how you are streamed out of EFT to what Ops you partake in is often beyond an individuals control. I don't think it is too much to ask that anyone who has served should have something to pin to their blazer in November.

If you wish to believe that there are chinless wonders out there who actively avoid Ops then that's up to you. If people have no medals I would suggest it's more an accident of timing than personal preference.

Once again this is all just my opinion and you are welcome to disagree.

BV

[1.3VStall]

BV, you have struck a chord!

I served for nearly 28 years and retired bare chested. A "Cold War Warrior" - yes - but I was proud to do what was necessary for all those years. Through no design of my own I was serving in MoD London during the two wars on my watch: Falklands and GW1.

Until recently I wasn't at all bothered by the lack of a "gong". However, I am now converted to your view that It would be appropriate for me to have something to pin on my lapel when I attend the local war memorial in November - and also a little memento for my boys, when I drop off my perch, to show their Dad did a bit of service.

At the end of the day, if it is now accepted that officer service is deserving of a LSGC gong then when the LS occurred should be irrelevant n'est ce pas?

[XFC]

Until recently I wasn't at all bothered by the lack of a "gong". However, I am now converted to your view that It would be appropriate for me to have something to pin on my lapel when I attend the local war memorial in November - and also a little memento for my boys, when I drop off my perch, to show their Dad did a bit of service.

At the end of the day, if it is now accepted that officer service is deserving of a LSGC gong then when the LS occurred should be irrelevant n'est ce pas?

Surely the point of Remembrance Sunday is to remember the dead? Not to try and tell everyone you used to be in the military. If you are that concerned that people know about your past, you have a veterans badge.

All medals come with qualifying criteria and someone, somewhere, always dips out. Where do you draw the line? The argument that it should be given to everyone could apply to every coronation and Jubilee medal ever issued.

Those advocating the issuing of a LS medal to retired officers, from what year would you count qualifying service? Or would you issue it to all officers who have ever served in the armed forces?

[Lima Juliet]

XFC

I get where you are coming from regarding the size of the problem (ie. cost) and I also understand where those that have retired are coming from (ie. disappointment). So as ever, the compromise might be for the MoD to issue a certificate of entitlement to veterans and then, of they so wish, they can purchase one at their own expense?

It costs £25 for one engraved from here:
The Mess Dress (http://www.messdress.com/shop/medals/replacement-medals/long-service-and-good-jubilee-medals-f-s/raf-ls-gc-medal-f-s-313963.html)

Then it has cost the MoD very little and to the veteran they can prove entitlement and not end up in the Walter Mitty Hunters' Club gallery!

Simples

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

In fact, thinking about it, the already issued RAF 'Valedictory Certificate', or previous to 2007 teh 'Valedictory Letter', should show that entitlement and so there would be no need to issue anything - just change the policy to include this. It would need to prove the same length of qualifying service.

No cost to MoD, entitlement officially given to veterans and if they wish they may purchase and wear the 'Long Gong' as Officers like those that are currently serving.

LJ

[Onceapilot]

Surely the point of Remembrance Sunday is to remember the dead? Not to try and tell everyone you used to be in the military. If you are that concerned that people know about your past, you have a veterans badge.

All medals come with qualifying criteria and someone, somewhere, always dips out. Where do you draw the line? The argument that it should be given to everyone could apply to every coronation and Jubilee medal ever issued.

Those advocating the issuing of a LS medal to retired officers, from what year would you count qualifying service? Or would you issue it to all officers who have ever served in the armed forces?

XFC
Welcome to the site. Your post raises a few simplistic points that have been covered many times. However, if this really is your first post here, you might consider doing some background work before typing! ;)

OAP

[Onceapilot]

In fact, thinking about it, the already issued RAF 'Valedictory Certificate', or previous to 2007 teh 'Valedictory Letter', should show that entitlement and so there would be no need to issue anything - just change the policy to include this. It would need to prove the same length of qualifying service.

No cost to MoD, entitlement officially given to veterans and if they wish they may purchase and wear the 'Long Gong' as Officers like those that are currently serving.

LJ

Leon

I think this has been proposed here and, I wrote along the same lines to the Sec of State for Defence last year. However, the proposal was rebuffed due to the "cost" and the falsehood that the medal is a "new" one, designed for "going forward". Wankers!

OAP

[Tankertrashnav]

Surely the point of Remembrance Sunday is to remember the dead? Not to try and tell everyone you used to be in the military. If you are that concerned that people know about your past, you have a veterans badge.

Actually I find they are a good point of contact at these affairs. At a service at the Bomber Command memorial in Green Park I noticed an old gent with a Military Cross at the front of his row. I commented on it and learned that he had won it at Kohima, the scene of some of the most savage hand to hand fighting in the whole war in the Far East. On another occasion. seeing a chap with the South Atlantic Medal I learned that he had been on one of the ships which were lost in the Falklands War.

Mind you nobody has ever asked me to relate my war experiences in Aden when they see my solitary South Arabia GSM. Good job too, as I have never been any good at making up stories!

[XFC]

XFC
Welcome to the site. Your post raises a few simplistic points that have been covered many times. However, if this really is your first post here, you might consider doing some background work before typing! ;)

OAP

Thank you for the patronising tone.

I have read the thread and seen both sides of the argument, with a nice little segue into the mess that is Op SHADER recognition.

A couple of replies have given good ideas on how retired officers could prove entitlement but I have yet to see anyone suggest a better set of qualifying criteria. Do you open up eligibility for all officers who have ever served or put some sort of time limit on it?

[Haraka]

Mind you nobody has ever asked me to relate my war experiences in Aden when they see my solitary South Arabia GSM. Good job too, as I have never been any good at making up stories!
A superb Flight Sergeant I had the privilege of working with, was asked by one of the lads as to how he had got one peculiar medal ribbon.

"Cowering in a trench boy , singing war songs!"

[Haraka]

Above was all about the time of the 1977 Silver Jubilee Medal.By the time it got down to my unit level in RAFG there was one medal left of the allocation. As a Flt Lt. I was given the task of allocating it. The strong hint was given ,by my unit C.O. that it would be in my interests(1369 and all that) to suggest him " as representing the unit" .Yeah Sure,
In the event I overheard said Ft Sgt above stating, in the crew bar,that the the medal was a worthless waste of time and therefore a total embarrassment to any recipient.
Guess who got it !

[Nugget90]

LS&GC Medal Eligibility

In his post No 62 on this thread, Leon suggested that a way forward might be for the MOD to issue a certificate to veterans who satisfied all of the criteria relating to the award of the appropriate Long Service and Good Conduct Medal (LS&GC Medal) so that they could, if they wished, purchase one at their own expense, saving the Government from much of the costs.

At present, JSP (Joint Service Publication) 761 Part 1 (V5.0 Oct 16) prescribes in paragraph 5B.01 subparagraph c. "Officers who left the Regular Forces prior to 29 July 2014 are ineligible for the medal". In order that Leon's suggestion might become a viable solution, this subparagraph will have to be removed and replaced - so what would then be a suitable alternative? Presumably, above all else the need would be to preserve the 'worth' of the medal in the eyes of all recipients past, present and future by retaining the existing Qualifying Conduct and Service requirements (paragraphs 5B.02 and 5B.04 respectively, 5B.03 being 'Reserved'), yet with subparagraph c. amended to accommodate those Regular Service officers who have already retired.

The proposal to allow retired RS officers to purchase the appropriate LS&GC Medal might be challenged by those who value the fact that it should be awarded by HM The Queen in a manner similar to all other official medals, and that to obtain one by other means could run counter to established practice. Whilst I could understand this objection, I would point out that there is nothing new about individuals who believe they are entitled to a medal applying for it by submitting the MOD Medal Application Form: this can be used by those applying on their own behalf, on behalf of relatives who are still alive, and for those who are deceased. If successful, then entitlement to the medal is affirmed and in due could it is made available.

So what would be so different about receiving a statement of entitlement that would allow the claimant to purchase the medal and then wear it in full compliance with the regulations? I understand that it is not uncommon for persons who have already received medals from purchasing duplicates that they then display and wear whilst the originals are kept in a safe place and worn only on special occasions. This process could just as easily be followed to obtain an 'original' - once entitled to do so. From my perspective, the critical point is entitlement to wear this medal, for however much I might feel entitled but not possess such entitlement, I would never purchase and wear it unless so entitled, for that would be not only quite improper but also in breach of regulations.

Acceptance of these proposals by the Government should overcome the sense of grievance felt by many who consider that they have missed out unfairly by the ineligibility clause, yet facilitate a solution at minimal expense to public coffers. Of course, many potential claimants might never wish to claim an entitlement to the appropriate LS&GC Medal, and the relatives of those who might have deserved it but are now deceased might not have an interest in obtaining one, which means that the burden of extra work to be undertaken by the Medal Office might not be excessive, and costs contained accordingly.

If the stark ineligibility clause were to be removed, then perhaps it might be replaced by something along the lines of, "Officers who left the Regular Forces before 29 July 2014 are ineligible for the automatic award of the medal. Those who retired before this date and satisfy all other relevant criteria may request a statement of entitlement that will allow them to purchase this medal at their own expense and wear it on suitable occasions."

Just to restate what this is all about: nothing about LS&GC Medals (I include all three versions in this description) addressed in the JSP are 'new', save that the Government took steps to rectify the anomaly by which RS officers had been denied medallic recognition of their voluntary, long and honourable service to their Queen and Country (nothing whatsoever to do with campaigns or risk and rigour). And yet the Government specified a date, arbitrarily it would seem, that excluded many who could claim to have deserved it on equitable terms in former years. My wish and that of others, it is now clear, is that a way should be found to overcome this barrier.

Once a new Government has been formed I have every intention of bringing my arguments to the notice of those who might bring about change and rectify this yet-to-be-completed anomaly. (I had written to the Minister of State in July 2015 before the amendment to the JSP was published, but a fresh approach to a new Government might be fruitful.) I shall also suggest that in addition to taking advice on this matter from Very Senior Officers in the Armed Forces who, having already qualified for medals, might not so easily understand the sentiments and articulate the views of those of us who have no medallic recognition from our Nation, any advisory committee should include representatives from the latter group.

One can but try!

[Haraka]

O.K. . I got a GSM in 1975 .Hoots of laughter among the old hands as having it being gained on a home tour. (N.I.) Indeed, I know of some of my compatriots who never put it up in order to avoid any awkward questions ,since we weren't there then officially as RAF(Imint) .
Long Service and Good Conduct medals were, at that time, solely the prerogative of S.N.C.O's. some of whom took them down on being commissioned, for reasons that I still have issues with.
I served in a few places post that time , watching other Nations pinning medals on themselves, and being promised that ours were "in the pipeline" (e.g. Turkey during "Provide Comfort" post GW1) . All in all "so what"? .
To those who wish to parade themselves with medals in memory of the fallen , fine. I won't comment further.

[Onceapilot]

Nugget90

An excellent reply!

Sometimes, one cannot fathom the brick wall, except that saving £1 seems to be worth wasting £10, according to some Polis. :mad:

OAP

[Onceapilot]

Haraka
I am confused by your postings. Do you have an ambivalent opinion of Military awards or do you think, as I do, that it is important that they should be as fair as possible criteria?

OAP

[MPN11]

100% with Nugget90 ... "Officers who left the Regular Forces before 29 July 2014 are ineligible for the automatic award of the medal. Those who retired before this date and satisfy all other relevant criteria may request a statement of entitlement that will allow them to purchase this medal at their own expense and wear it on suitable occasions."

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, on point of contact I agree. A veteran's badge says one thing, even a VRT qualify. A LS&GC medal says something else such as Service. On its own another message. It used to denote an OR, now no longer. With a jubilee medal, yet another.

They all serve as a point of reference at a gathering.

At Runnymede i spotted an Air Gunner Association badge on a car. What a tale that Vet had together with a photo album. At the club a unit tie opened up another story - ASW Wellingtons in the Gulf of Aden. An Arctic Star led to the 151 Sqn in Russia and he was subsequently Air attaché in Moscow.

Few Vets are Harrier pilots but are happy to tell a tale to anyone genuinely interested.

Gongs are important.

[MPN11]

Long Service and Good Conduct medals were, at that time, solely the prerogative of S.N.C.O's. some of whom took them down on being commissioned, for reasons that I still have issues with. We had a flt lt at a certain Area Radar Unit who had a couple of WW2 service medals (NDM and Victory?). He was teased about his apparent age, as his skin colour and dark curly hair gave no such indication. He removed the ribbons and never was seen wearing them again. Nickname was "G***t Noir" to avoid confusion with his pale-skinned colleague with the same surname who was called G**** Blanc".

I suspect I was not the only one who felt a subsequent twinge of guilt about the teasing. :(

[Haraka]

OAP]
Thank you for reading my posts.
Medals and Citations are part of the military system. It should be fair.
Unfortunately this is not the case when overriding higher level considerations come in to play.

[Onceapilot]

Haraka

Cheers!:ok:

OAP

[gijoe]

You know why the Op Allowance is there? It is a UK Poli's ploy to bury the fact that Uncle Sams servicemen work income tax-free on Ops. The UK answer to that was an OA rate that just about covered a very junior servicemans tax level. This allows gob****e UK Polis to BS their way out of that criticism and, they have worked to make OA as limited as possible ever since. :mad:

OAP

Spot on - so in answer to Bob V's point, it should be paid to all of those filling an op PID. Not the selective few who are geographically positioned in the place that has been deemed worthy. All should get it or none - in its current form it is divisive. There are places that get the tick that are seriously 'not dangerous' and very comfortable. And given it was to parallel the US model it is missing the mark by miles.

The LS for officers is not needed. The funding would be better spent on recognising the lengthy time away on ops that more and more personnel are picking up - yet unrecognised. And that would probably convince juniors to stay in longer - some are questioning what this ops thing is all about if it is not recognised with a medal or op allowance.

Bob - I don't think I called anyone a chinless wonder - I'll leave that task to the digusting creature Peter Mandelson and his comments on the Household Division - but there are plenty around who swerve every 6 monther that comes up citing health or family reasons or...running a business!

Loads.

G

[Lima Juliet]

100% with Nugget90 ...
Quote:
"Officers who left the Regular Forces before 29 July 2014 are ineligible for the automatic award of the medal. Those who retired before this date and satisfy all other relevant criteria may request a statement of entitlement that will allow them to purchase this medal at their own expense and wear it on suitable occasions."


Me too. It seems the best way to satisfy both parties during these austere times that we live in. For officers to purchase things outside of issue is not that unusual - leather jackets and forage caps come immediately to mind.

[Onceapilot]

And given it was to parallel the US model it is missing the mark by miles.


OK, to make your point, apart from the level of payment, give succinct examples where the mark is missed and is divisive, compared to Uncle Sam.

OAP

[Onceapilot]

The LS for officers is not needed.



Just which medals are "needed" then? :ooh:

OAP

[gijoe]

Ones for operational deployments perhaps?

LS - goes with the leadership thing. Jubilees - dodgy ground.

[ian16th]

We could always go back to the pre-1951 Good Conduct Stripes.



Hat, coat...........

[Pontius Navigator]

Gijoe, like swimming in the pool, happy hour, wandering round the bazaars and other delights. A threat maybe, but running around with cabbage kit, tin hats etc, no way. Running at all was a no no, and the most rigorous events were a jungle walk in Singapore and R2I training in Boogie Street.

[6foottanker]

What's this then??

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/qualifying-time-for-accumulated-campaign-service-medal-reduced

[ian16th]

Bars are to be awarded for each additional period of 720 days approved operational service.

I see that the term 'Bars' is used, not 'Clasps'.

TTN Any comment?

[gijoe]

Gijoe, like swimming in the pool, happy hour, wandering round the bazaars and other delights. A threat maybe, but running around with cabbage kit, tin hats etc, no way. Running at all was a no no, and the most rigorous events were a jungle walk in Singapore and R2I training in Boogie Street.

I have no idea how that links to my points or what you are on about.

The AcSM - removing the need for another medal to be approved before it counts towards the new AcSM would be a partial victory...but still a cop out.

[orgASMic]

I see that the term 'Bars' is used, not 'Clasps'.

TTN Any comment?

Bars are for repeat awards (eg DFC and Bar). Clasps are to designate theatres of operations (OSM Afghanistan with Clasp, GSM with Northern Ireland Clasp).

[Onceapilot]

Am I missing the point with the AcSM? Are some campaigns (with their own awards) TOTALLY without merit if an individual did not reach the Medal qualifying period? Surely, such unrecognised service should count towards the AcSM? :confused:

OAP

[alfred_the_great]

If it's any help, I was awarded mine today by a very nice 1*.

[ian16th]

Bars are for repeat awards (eg DFC and Bar). Clasps are to designate theatres of operations (OSM Afghanistan with Clasp, GSM with Northern Ireland Clasp).

I was assuming that additional time would be in different theatres.

But time in several theatres can count towards each award.

So different to the old GSM

[Tankertrashnav]

I see that the term 'Bars' is used, not 'Clasps'.

TTN Any comment

Hello Ian. Well Orgasmic is correct, but I have to confess that I, like most people in the medal world, would tend to say "bar" where I should say "clasp", eg "I have the 1962 GSM with the 'South Arabia' bar"

[orgASMic]

I was assuming that additional time would be in different theatres.

But time in several theatres can count towards each award.

So different to the old GSM

Yes, indeed. It accounts for time on operations in general. Several RLC mates of mine have ACSMs for the multiple Bosnia tours they did in the mid-90s - one campaign medal (with a brass numeral on the ribbon to indicated the number of tours completed, a NATO thing) then an ACSM to denote 6+ tours, assuming 6 months each. I know one unlucky sod who has his ACSM for multiple tours of NI during the Troubles alongside his GSM62 with Clasp Northern Ireland.

[Mahogany_Bomber]

I stand ready to be corrected, but I don't believe time served on NATO or UN medal qualifying operations counts towards either ACSM.

[ian16th]

I take it that all time in different theatres is now equal?

Unlike the old GSM's, where one had to serve 30 days in the Canal Zone but 90 days in Cyprus for the local clasp/medal.

[gijoe]

'Am I missing the point with the AcSM? Are some campaigns (with their own awards) TOTALLY without merit if an individual did not reach the Medal qualifying period? Surely, such unrecognised service should count towards the AcSM?'

Nope - I think you have it. Some campaigns with their own awards will also qualify towards the award of the AcSM.

Some op time will not - ie UN.

So those like SHADER, KIPION etc do not qualify towards the AcSM because they have not been deemed worthy by Senior Leadership of their own campaign medal.

The AcSM was all about keeping the Royal Irish in NI happy as they thought they were being short changed by doing multiple tours of NI....which was where most of them lived and drank tea in Sandy's for the majority of their career so the the hardship wasn't that hard. The risk and rigour in NI really wasn't that bad.

G

[Melchett01]

Am I missing the point with the AcSM? Are some campaigns (with their own awards) TOTALLY without merit if an individual did not reach the Medal qualifying period? Surely, such unrecognised service should count towards the AcSM? :confused:

OAP

Assume you mean if you only do 25 days rather than the 30 needed for the medal, does the 25 days still count towards the ACSM or in every case do you have to meet the qualification criteria in order for the time to also count to the ACSM?

I hope not as I've got a couple of short last minute dets where I was covering gaps that weren't in themselves long enough for a gong, but were in medal earning appointments. That I'd already got the gongs was probably in part why I was asked to do them as I wasn't losing out on anything. The way I read the criteria in the earlier link is that as long as you have the qualifying medals, how you accumulate the time shouldn't matter. Otherwise it would not the Accumulated Campaign Sevice (subject to Ts&Cs) Medal.

[gijoe]

That time should count as you it would have been in a medal-qualifying theatre.

[alfred_the_great]

That time should count as you it would have been in a medal-qualifying theatre.

Nope - it's time after the medal qualifying time.

As put forward by the MoD Medals Office.

ARRSE has thread on this - it seems someone in the Medal Office is reading the rules in a very odd manner...

[alfred_the_great]

I stand ready to be corrected, but I don't believe time served on NATO or UN medal qualifying operations counts towards either ACSM.

It depends - as an example, the UN medal for DR Congo counts towards an ACSM.

[Mahogany_Bomber]

JSP 761 suggests otherwise ref ACSM 11 and UN medals (and I presume ACSM 94 was at least broadly similar):


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/557785/JSP761_Part1.pdf

[Melchett01]

Nope - it's time after the medal qualifying time.

As put forward by the MoD Medals Office.

ARRSE has thread on this - it seems someone in the Medal Office is reading the rules in a very odd manner...

If I were a betting man, I'd say they would claim that allowing you to include the original medal earning period counted as double medalling and therefore to stop it, ACSM time only starts after the initial qualifying period. If that's the case, it's exactly the sort of thing I would change if God for the day and allowed to revamp our utterly inflexible, and on occasions, stubbornly mean spirited medals policy.

[alfred_the_great]

JSP 761 suggests otherwise ref ACSM 11 and UN medals (and I presume ACSM 94 was at least broadly similar):


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/557785/JSP761_Part1.pdf


Annex 8A and 8B say UN or NATO medals can be used.

[Sloppy Link]

Alfred, don't be naughty, it is after 2000 on a case by case basis.


16 The published DCI/DIN relating to a multi-national operation will state whether service counts towards the ACSM.

[Just This Once...]

Just received my 'failed to be convicted' medal and clasp in the post. With equal ceremony it has gone into a drawer. They are not exactly rushing theses things out.

Anyway, back to avoiding another clasp.

[It's Not Working]

JTO, if it’s any consolation I got my WO's warrant 3.5 years after the event via internal mail. On the plus side it did have that nice Mr Hoon's 'signature' on it, remember him?

[Lima Juliet]

Not getting one, even though I hit nearly 30 years of full time service. Must be my WWRinklyFruIt posts! :cool:

[Like This - Do That]

... I got my WO's warrant 3.5 years after the event via internal mail. On the plus side it did have that nice Mr Hoon's 'signature' on it, remember him?

Similar here INW .... I had a call this week from the OPSO of the regiment of my first posting. He & I were new subalterns together. "Mate I have your commissioning scroll here, it's framed and it's a bit dusty - found it in a cupboard. It's dated 2010".

Which makes three of the silly things. One that arrived a couple of years after I was commissioned; a second given to me when I was promoted to CAPT; and the one discovered this week. All three signed by a mix of three different MINDEFs and two GGs ... none of whom were the MINDEF or GG at the time of my commissioning! :8

[Rossian]

.......after 35 years regular service followed by 8 years auxiliary service, including being mobilised at the age of 62??

Oddly, I don't think I am.

The Ancient Mariner

[RHKAAF]

If I did my 16 years GD commission in the 60's and 70's , how do I go about requesting a LS&GC medal ? Do I write to MOD or will I be contacted ?
Has anyone yet received the medal ?
Was it a painless process ?

[Bob Viking]

Assuming this is not a wind up you may wish to read through the thread from the beginning and then either delete your post or follow my post with a rant similar to many that already adorn this thread.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings.

BV

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

So does that mean I won't be retrospectively getting the Golden and Silver jubilee medals because I happened to be alive when they issued them and did the qualifying time at some point during my career?!

[silverfoxx]

Correct. Refer to the rules of qualification and the previous 6 pages of posts.

[Old-Duffer]

As an ex-regular officer with 31 years service, I was quite looking forward to being awarded an LS&GCM to bring me into line with my Halton trained father. However, it quickly became apparent that I would not be eligible due to the actual timing period of my service.

However, any disappointment was quickly overcome when having had my regular service declared ineligible for the LS&GCM, I learned I could count three years of that towards my VR long service award and that nice lady who lives at the bottom of Constitution Hill did the rest.

I must say this latest bit of bling has a certain 'snob appeal' about it and it was much admired by an air force 'big cheese' I met t'other day (who didn't know what it was)!

Old Duffer

[Tankertrashnav]

I also like the VRSM, Old Duffer, although I don't think it is as nice as the old Air Efficiency Award with its very attractive eagle suspension. Shame on the "big cheese" for not knowing what it was, it's been around for quite a few years now. I did know a chap in the AAC (TA) who had just missed out on qualifying for the Territorial Decoration, but had received the VRSM instead, He was quite miffed, and the last time I met him he was in correspondence with the MOD as he thought he could get both medals. Good luck with that one!

[Whenurhappy]

I just picked my medals up after getting the LS&GCM and clasp mounted, as a favour at Wellington Barracks - a cool £96 for full-sized and miniatures. At least I didn't have to get my tunics done these days...

[teeteringhead]

And then of course - as TTN probably knows - before the Territorial Decoration there used to be the Volunteer Officers' Decoration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_Officers%27_Decoration), with its rather unfortunate post-nominals.........

[just another jocky]

Paperwork for both LS&GCM & the Shader medal went in weeks ago but still not heard anything.



Nearly £100 to get 2 new medals mounted & miniatures? Best I get saving.

[Old-Duffer]

Apologies TTN - I have misled you with lax posting on this site.

I should have put VR(T) instead of just VR, so it's actually the Cadet Forces Medal I'm boasting about and rattling along swiftly towards a first clasp!

Old Duffer

[Tankertrashnav]

O-D - thanks for that. The Cadet Forces Medal is also a nice one, but doesn't entitle you to any post nominal letters like the 'VR' which comes with the VRSM (not VD which teeteringhead alludes to :))

[Melchett01]

Paperwork for both LS&GCM & the Shader medal went in weeks ago but still not heard anything.

Nearly £100 to get 2 new medals mounted & miniatures? Best I get saving.

I’m assuming you have other medals as well as those 2? Otherwise you’re being seen off a little. I just recently had 4 full size and 4 miniatures mounted for a bit less than that.

[Old-Duffer]

I'm reminded of the quote by Hamish Mahaddie the pathfinder.

He went to Buck House and was wearing the ribbons IIRC of a DSO, DFC and a foreign award and this at the stage of the last unpleasantness before campaign medals were generally in issue. Afterwards, he and others adjourned for some refreshment and he was asked by a lady what the medals were, he was wearing. He claims to have replied: "I've no idea madam, they were on the uniform when I bought it".

As to the cost of medal mounting, one needs to compare the exceptionally smart arrangement of medals 'court mounted' against the scruffy 'loose mounted'. Even a single medal mounted in the former style shows a pride in appearance, whereas the latter (and occasionally seen in the wrong sequence 'cause it was left to 'er in doors to add them to a bar obtained on eBay) suggests a certain disinterest and lack of pride - rant over!

I am well past my three score and ten but still taking the shilling on certain occasions. However, I have no expectation of anything further to be added and so am unlikely to need to spend anything on mounting - mind you, the cost of Brasso's creeping up!!!

Old Duffer

[Sloppy Link]

As an ex-regular officer with 31 years service, I was quite looking forward to being awarded an LS&GCM to bring me into line with my Halton trained father. However, it quickly became apparent that I would not be eligible due to the actual timing period of my service.

However, any disappointment was quickly overcome when having had my regular service declared ineligible for the LS&GCM, I learned I could count three years of that towards my VR long service award and that nice lady who lives at the bottom of Constitution Hill did the rest.

I must say this latest bit of bling has a certain 'snob appeal' about it and it was much admired by an air force 'big cheese' I met t'other day (who didn't know what it was)!

Old Duffer

Not quite (unless there are different rules between Services). Regular service counts towards the award of the VRSM at half rate to a maximum of five years provided none of that time counts towards another award, in other words 5 years gives 2.5 years credit meaning a further 7.5 years to qualify. A pure reservist needs 9 out of 10 bounty earning years to qualify, I'm not certain how it affects those that are mix 'n match. NRPS and FTRS have some very complicated rules, one I'm aware of (Army) that catches some out is they have to complete Level 3 MATTs to be classed as efficient. The cries of "I'm exempt all that stuff" turns and bites......

[just another jocky]

I’m assuming you have other medals as well as those 2? Otherwise you’re being seen off a little. I just recently had 4 full size and 4 miniatures mounted for a bit less than that.



Sorry, yes they are in addition to the 6 I already have.


Going to look like this soon if they keep giving them away!


http://www.polarimagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Kenny.jpg

[ShyTorque]

I was told by my Sqn Boss that our illustrious Station Commander had marked down my final report to almost zero because he was of the opinion that I was being disloyal to the service by taking my option to leave at my 38/16 point. Definitely no medal for me. He also unecessarily tried to delay my timely departure from the service, which almost cost me the civilian job I had been offered. Meanwhile, he was clearing his own desk to take up a plum overseas posting.

[Wander00]

ST - now I have my Service records I find the same happened to me, not at local level but up the Group and MOD chain because I took Phase 1 redundancy in 1993

[MPN11]

My last MoD ACR was nailed down by ACAS (Lord Tim) with the telling sentence "... it appears that he will move to civilian life as soon as a job worthy of his perception of his own qualities becomes available." Miaow!!

[Tankertrashnav]

Re court mounting versus traditional "swing" mounting. There is absolutely no reason why a swing mounted group should look scruffy if it is done properly. This was the standard form of mounting up until recent times. Originally court mounting tended to be restricted to cavalry and other mounted units to prevent damage to the medals as they clashed against each other, and of course as the name implies it was required for court dress.

Personally I prefer to see properly swing mounted groups to court mounting, but I acknowledge that court mounting is now required in a lot of the military - not sure what the rules are in the RAF.

Anyway, I wont be getting my solitary GSM for South Arabia court mounted!

[MPN11]

My great-grandfather's Khedive's Star (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khedive%27s_Star) has a soldered hook on the back, presumably attached to a becket on his uniform, to prevent the monstrously heavy item crashing about unfettered!

[Sloppy Link]

I was told by my Sqn Boss that our illustrious Station Commander had marked down my final report to almost zero because he was of the opinion that I was being disloyal to the service by taking my option to leave at my 38/16 point. Definitely no medal for me. He also unecessarily tried to delay my timely departure from the service, which almost cost me the civilian job I had been offered. Meanwhile, he was clearing his own desk to take up a plum overseas posting.

Wouldn't have made one iota of difference. Regimental entry* (in black, red is a commendation) or higher (Courts Martial) or a recordable civilian offence (drink driving for starters) preclude an award. A bad OJAR etc has no bearing.
*Other entries are available depending on service.

[Sloppy Link]

Re court mounting versus traditional "swing" mounting. There is absolutely no reason why a swing mounted group should look scruffy if it is done properly. This was the standard form of mounting up until recent times. Originally court mounting tended to be restricted to cavalry and other mounted units to prevent damage to the medals as they clashed against each other, and of course as the name implies it was required for court dress.

Personally I prefer to see properly swing mounted groups to court mounting, but I acknowledge that court mounting is now required in a lot of the military - not sure what the rules are in the RAF.

Anyway, I wont be getting my solitary GSM for South Arabia court mounted!

I may be wrong but I don't think RN/RM ever court mount.

[Wander00]

So with 13 years Regular RAF commissioned service 1980-1993, and 8 years TA service before that and Towers + 4 years in the 60s I still don't qualify - bah, humbug.....Still, save pinholes in my jacket!

[Gulf Flyer]

It's a ruff world out there (71 to 10) - no Silver Jubilee medal; no Diamond Jubilee medal; no LS&GC medal (with ? clasps).

But I remain hopeful, maybe I'll get a Platinum Jubilee medal for services rendered? If not, surely I'll qualify for a RAF Centenary medal (?) - I should have gone for that extension offer?!*

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

I may be wrong but I don't think RN/RM ever court mount.

Just looking through google Images and I find there are plenty examples of both for the RN.

Aaron.

[Tankertrashnav]

My great-grandfather's Khedive's Star has a soldered hook on the back, presumably attached to a becket on his uniform, to prevent the monstrously heavy item crashing about unfettered!

The Khedive's Star was issued with the British Egypt campaign medal. I have seen Egypt Medals which have been pretty well wrecked from continual contact with the star, and in the medal world it is quite normal to see Egypt medal offered for sale "with usual contact marks". Any which have survived unscathed usually attract a premium.

I may be wrong but I don't think RN/RM ever court mount.

I think you are correct Sloppy Link. I have often seen naval groups mounted swing style but with an extra length of black material behind the medals to protect them from contact with uniform buttons.

[ShyTorque]

ST - now I have my Service records I find the same happened to me, not at local level but up the Group and MOD chain because I took Phase 1 redundancy in 1993

A work colleague of that time (same rank, same unit, same job) was eligible for redundancy, which he took and left in the same month that I did, in early 1994. He left the RAF a far richer man than I.

[teeteringhead]

mind you, the cost of Brasso's creeping up!!! O-D, I am surprised at an old stager like yourself using chemicals .

The best thing for cleaning medals is the rubber on the end of a pencil. Pencil gives a good hand-hold and the rubber (eraser for the cousins) is small enough to get into the fiddly bits.

[ShyTorque]

Wouldn't have made one iota of difference. Regimental entry* (in black, red is a commendation) or higher (Courts Martial) or a recordable civilian offence (drink driving for starters) preclude an award. A bad OJAR etc has no bearing.
*Other entries are available depending on service.

SL, I take it "OJAR" is an annual report of some sort? (I was RAF, we had ACRs = Annual Confidential Report).

But it seems that in any case I'm not eligible for any recognition of 18 years service due to the Cold War never happening...

[Old-Duffer]

Teeters,

When I mentioned Brazzo, I should have clarified that I had only heard from my man about the cost of the stuff increasing. I was issued with a tin of the stuff on enlistment as Aircraftman 2nd Class in 1963. Within days, bag of anodised buttons appeared (subsequently replaced at private expense by the high domed version) and, thereafter, I found little use for my button stick or the brazzo.

One now uses a cloth impregnated (in the nicest possible way) with some harmless stuff to clean the bling.

O-D

[wokkamate]

There’s an RAF 100 Medal? I’ve just paid £116 to have my 9 court mounted (full & minis) could do without another.....😂

[MPN11]

The Khedive's Star was issued with the British Egypt campaign medal. I have seen Egypt Medals which have been pretty well wrecked from continual contact with the star, and in the medal world it is quite normal to see Egypt medal offered for sale "with usual contact marks". Any which have survived unscathed usually attract a premium.
Have just checked G-GF's Egypt 1882 with clasp Tel-el-Kebir ... looks pretty unmarked. Saved by the clip, and nice and smart, as one would have expected from a [then] Scots Guards Colour Sergeant.

Could this be him, in the top row of pictures? Those are the medals, anyway.

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/53691420531325091/

[ShyTorque]

There’s an RAF 100 Medal? I’ve just paid £116 to have my 9 court mounted (full & minis) could do without another.....😂

Well done Wokka! :cool:
Any advance on nine?
Any North Koreans on the forum...?

[Sloppy Link]

Yep replaced the various Confidential Reports. Officers Joint Appraisal Report.

[Old-Duffer]

Drifting the Thread - as y'u do, I find that tomorrow, my RAFVR(T) commission becomes an RAF Air Cadets (RAFAC) commission. This includes a new set of rank slides with 'RAFAC' rather than gilt 'RAFVR(T)' pins and a set of gilt 'RAFAC' pins for my No: 1 (buy, borrow or steal for your No: 5). It will also affect my business cards, headed paper etc.

However, apparently I shall get a new commissioning parchment. This will be a struggle, as the wall of the downstairs loo is already covered with a variety of these for not just myself but the current Mrs O-D, together with a photo of the last flying machine with which she was involved and the last heavier than air machine, with its revolving telegraph pole, with which I was allowed to play before being sent to fluff duvets in some distant shed.

O-D

[Pontius Navigator]

I was issued with a tin of the stuff on enlistment as Aircraftman 2nd Class in 1963. Within days, bag of anodised buttons appeared (subsequently replaced at private expense by the high domed version) and, thereafter, I found little use for my button stick.
O-D
Whilst anodised buttons saved work they never looked as good, but why did we have high dome forced on us? Button holes were too small.

[MG]

Well done Wokka! :cool:
Any advance on nine?
Any North Koreans on the forum...?

Yes, just received my tenth.
It’s going to cost me a fortune but at least I know it’s my last as I left 3 years ago, having just made the cut for the LG&GCM

[ian16th]

Yes, just received my tenth.
It’s going to cost me a fortune but at least I know it’s my last as I left 3 years ago, having just made the cut for the LG&GCM

You can't bank on it.

I'd been demobbed 51 years when the 'GSM Cyprus 1963-64' was invented!

It was my 1st!

[Tankertrashnav]

Just been thinking. Do you remember the "Cold War' when we were all supposed to be risking annihilation on a daily basis. In general the campaign medal ribbons on our uniforms ranged from none to maybe two.

Then the wall came down, the USSR collapsed and all the other Eastern Bloc countries fell like ninepins. Peace broke out, with much talk of a "peace dividend". War would be no more, maybe it was the end of armed forces.

And now my son's group of 7 medals (served from 1992 - 2014) is nothing remarkable, and MG tells us he is up to 10.

Some peace!

[ian16th]

Just been thinking. Do you remember the "Cold War' when we were all supposed to be risking annihilation on a daily basis. In general the campaign medal ribbons on our uniforms ranged from none to maybe two.

Then the wall came down, the USSR collapsed and all the other Eastern Bloc countries fell like ninepins. Peace broke out, with much talk of a "peace dividend". War would be no more, maybe it was the end of armed forces.

And now my son's group of 7 medals (served from 1992 - 2014) is nothing remarkable, and MG tells us he is up to 10.

Some peace!

TTN,

During the 50's and early 60's, anyone with more than the none to two, usually was wearing WWII medals.

Not uncommon with SNCO's and senior officers.

Our mutual former O.C. was the last Chief of the Air Staff to have a DFC from WWII. He might have been the last Chief of the Air Staff to have seen service in WWII.

My W.O. in the Akrotiri Electronics Centre in 62-4, went through N. Africa, Sicily and Italy. He claimed to have set up the 1st communications on Sicily and had strong regards for one of the Guards regiments. After he started setting up his equipment, the Germans counter attacked and got too close for comfort, then a squad/company/battalion of foot guards apparently saw off the threat. He didn't let us make jokes about 'pongo's' and 'brown jobs', he said they have their uses.

[MPN11]

A good friend of mine [same age group] retired as an RAF Regt gp capt with ... nothing.

He told me he was either not "there" long enough, or on the wrong dates, or never got sent in the first place. He didn't even manage an NI GSM, which must have been unusual for a Regt officer. :)

He and I have no concerns about cleaning, re-ribboning or adding things.

[Tankertrashnav]

Our mutual former O.C. was the last Chief of the Air Staff to have a DFC from WWII. He might have been the last Chief of the Air Staff to have seen service in WWII.

Yes, the late MRAF Sir Michael Beetham, who won the AFC to go with his wartime DFC when he was commanding 214.

Looking at my 1972 214 Squadron photograph I see that there were still three of our number sporting WW2 ribbons, all of them AEOs who were commissioned siggies. Other than that, apart from a sprinkling of GSMs and LS&GCs most chests are devoid of ribbons.

MPN11 - please check your PMs ref your retired Regiment chum.

[ShyTorque]

I have often seen naval groups mounted swing style.

Those Navy boys, eh?

[ian16th]

Yes, the late MRAF Sir Michael Beetham, who won the AFC to go with his wartime DFC when he was commanding 214.

For the successful completion of the trials of the probe and drogue in flight refuelling system, and its successful introduction into RAF service.

He said a 'thank you' to me for helping him.

That was me, and the one hundred and odd other guys on the squadron. :cool:

[Wander00]

To return to the "Court mounted issue and RN/RM, yesterday I had the privilege of being one of the RAFA Sud Ouest France group at the Commemoration at Pointe de Grave of the 75th Anniversary of the Op FRANKTON raid. Lots of RM and some RN there, most medals were Court mounted, and particularly so amongst retired RM and RN. And there were LOTS of medals, many South Atlantic "operational" and at least a couple of DSCs

[Tankertrashnav]

Very interesting Wander00. I am afraid that on these occasions I usually shamelessly buttonhole the wearers and try and find out the circumstances of the awards. A few years ago I was at a service at the Bomber Command Memorial when I spotted an old gent wearing his WW2 medals, headed by the Military Cross. I asked him if he would mind telling me about it and his reply started with "I wonder if you have heard of a place called Kohima". I had!

On another occasion when I still had my militaria shop I got talking to a chap who mentioned that he had a DSC. I discovered that he was ex WO2 John Phillips, RE, who had won his medal for his part in attempting to defuse a bomb on HMS Argonaut. The bomb exploded and Phillips was seriously injured, losing an arm. I think this award of the DSC to an army WO2 is probably unique.

[Wander00]

TTN - meet some very interesting people through RAFA attendance at commemorations here. Was at the annual event for a Stirling crew near Angles in the Vendee, and was introduced to a French veteran who had flown with that crew. on Saturday had the privilege of talking to the nephew of Lt McKinnon about his uncle and what he still means to the family

[Union Jack]

TTN - meet some very interesting people through RAFA attendance at commemorations here. - Wander00

Attendances which I have noted from several posts and for which you certainly deserve to be commended, although I suspect you will equally certainly modestly decline.

That said, since you have kindly brought up the subject, and at the risk of further thread drift, I attach some links outlining two different events commemorating the 75th anniversary re-enactment of Operation FRANKTON, including one by a group including Bill Sparks's grandsons:

» The Paddle (http://frankton75.co.uk/the-challenge/the-paddle/)

http://invisiblebordeaux.********.co.uk/2017/07/frankton-75-cockleshell-heros-grandsons.html

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/865549/Operation-Frankton-Cockleshell-Heroes-Bordeaux-marines-world-war-2-charity-Weldmar-Hospice

Jack

[November4]

Anyone beat this small group?

Was lucky enough to visit Canberra last year and saw WO Keith Payne's group

http://i66.tinypic.com/34o4k9d.jpg

[Tankertrashnav]

Blimey - my gob is totally smacked!

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Clearly he is a blood legend for getting the VC, bit isn't that the Silver, Golden and Diamond jubilee medal in the middle there? Given that he finished serving before any of those were issued and as is now 84, I presume the Ozzy rules for getting them are totally different and therefore very lax? As is the rule about wearing other nations medals?

[4everAD]

Clearly he is a blood legend for getting the VC, bit isn't that the Silver, Golden and Diamond jubilee medal in the middle there? Given that he finished serving before any of those were issued and as is now 84, I presume the Ozzy rules for getting them are totally different and therefore very lax? As is the rule about wearing other nations medals?
Holders of the VC were automatically eligible for jubilee medals, as for wearing other countries medals if they were awarded to him and his government were happy then why not? Its not like he bought them on EBay!

[Wensleydale]

Foreign medals may be worn if permission has been granted by the Sovereign.

[Sloppy Link]

Holders of the VC were automatically eligible for jubilee medals, as for wearing other countries medals if they were awarded to him and his government were happy then why not? Its not like he bought them on EBay!

Also for GC holders and includes Coronation medals for the remainder of their life.

[teeteringhead]

Keith P has got 4 of my 5! including the 2 Omani ones 2nd and 3rd from last. (I met him briefly in Oman).

For UK regulars comme moi, there was a DCI issued authorising the wear of the campaign medals. For one off gallantry awards or similar there was an individual letter from the Palace!

The ribbon of the Dhofar Campaign Medal (KP's 3rd from the end) looks a bit like the one for the Kuwaiti Liberation Medal (which can't be worn). I've been "counselled" on my apparent error by many ranks from SWO to Brigadier; it was fun telling them they were wrong!

A bit easier when Jock Stirrup was CAS/CDS as he had one.

Dhofar Medal

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2007/post-467-1170768304.jpg

Kuwait Liberation

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2008/post-570-1213980402.jpg

[Tankertrashnav]

Interesting Teeters, I met an old chum called Tim Jones from my rockape days at a black tie reunion. I was sporting my single GSM miniature from Aden where Tim and I both served, but was rather outshone by his row of 6 or 7 which included the two you mention, as well as several other blingy looking things from the same sandy region.

Re coronation and jubilee medals, anyone who watched this year's Cenotaph parade will have seen Bill Speakman wearing his VC group, which includes the "full set" of 1953 Coronation Medal, QSJM, QGSM and QDJM.

Re Payne VC's group, I think I counted 24. I used to do medal mounting but always "sub contracted" court mounting to a mate, as I found it such a fiddle. Obviously Payne's have been mounted for display, but trying to mount a group of 24 with sufficient overlap to enable them to be worn without looking like Kenny Everett's US general would be a bit of a nightmare!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMHDBL7CNA4

[teeteringhead]

Ttn Tim Jones I also knew - I was seconded to Oman from '73 to '75.

Tim was one of the few (the only?) Rock who was seconded to SAF as an infanteer; there were of course many Rocks - as Rocks - at Salalah mostly manning the "Hedgehogs" IIRC.

You will be aware that the Omani campaign medals and the GSM Dhofar clasp were an "either or"; seconded - wearing Sultan's uniform - no GSM clasp.

Although I do know of some fairly senior ex-secondees who seem to have "acquired" a Dhofar clap to their GSMs........ (and no - it wasn't Jock S!)

[November4]

Holders of the VC were automatically eligible for jubilee medals, as for wearing other countries medals if they were awarded to him and his government were happy then why not? Its not like he bought them on EBay!

I'd forgotten that the VC holder was awarded the jubillee medals. I was on parade with the son of a VC holder from the First War at the Cenotaph in November. He was proudly wearing his father's medals - VC and the 3 Great War Medals. He didn't have any of the coronation or jubillee medals. Will send him a message to ask if his father had them but didn't mount the medals or didn't get them.

[November4]

Interesting Teeters,

Re Payne VC's group, I think I counted 24. I used to do medal mounting but always "sub contracted" court mounting to a mate, as I found it such a fiddle. Obviously Payne's have been mounted for display, but trying to mount a group of 24 with sufficient overlap to enable them to be worn without looking like Kenny Everett's US general would be a bit of a nightmare!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMHDBL7CNA4

Even with overlapping his medals, the bar is still huge

http://vcgca.org/files/uploads/2/1/9/219ba06a1d9c4af31bb9ecd1f8fbea1b3faf3ce9/keith-payne.jpg

[Tankertrashnav]

Teeters - Interesting you knew Tim. He and I were young rocks together at Catterick, and later in Singapore where he managed to wangle the job of ADC to the Air Commander (C in C), AM Sir Rochford Hughes, a no-nonsense Kiwi who had sacked a couple of earlier candidates before Tim came along and managed to hold on to the job. Always a smooth operator, I knew he would do well and the last time I saw him he had a pretty good job with Rolls Royce, which he told me involved lots of schmoozing - something he would be very good at!

November 4 - yes that is impressive. I know if I had been presented with that job I would have given up pretty quickly and handed over to somebody with nimbler fingers than mine.

[Tengah Type]

TTN

As stated in an earlier post you can not wear the Kuwait Liberation Medal, and I understand the same rule applies to the Saudi medal issued after GW1, whilst still serving. What is the protocol about wearing them, or other foreign medals, after retirement? Or does that qualify you as a Walt?

I am unlikely to fork out £100 to have them mounted to wear them on French Remembrance Day parades in any event.

[Pontius Navigator]

TT, protocol, verboten. However father in law, and others of his time, proudly wore his Soviet Arctic medals with some issued on anniversaries. He did not survive to get the Arctic emblem and later Arctic Star, though his widow has both now.

[Wander00]

UJ - It is a privilege


TT - where in SW France? RAFA Sud Ouest Branch?

[Tankertrashnav]

What is the protocol about wearing them, or other foreign medals, after retirement? Or does that qualify you as a Walt?


Whatever the protocol, I'd say that if they were awarded to you, go ahead and wear them. Remembrance parades are already peppered with blokes covered in those pseudo medals such as the National Service Medal and many more which are available to anyone who wishes to shell out thirty odd quid a go. Pinning your Saudi and Kuwaiti medals under your official group certainly wouldn't qualify you as a Walt in my book - but mind you they are 'orrible medals - why bother?!

[Sloppy Link]

I'd forgotten that the VC holder was awarded the jubillee medals. I was on parade with the son of a VC holder from the First War at the Cenotaph in November. He was proudly wearing his father's medals - VC and the 3 Great War Medals. He didn't have any of the coronation or jubillee medals. Will send him a message to ask if his father had them but didn't mount the medals or didn't get them.

Your man was in the correct form of dress, the Coronation/Jubilee policy came into effect at King George VI Coronation 1937.

[Melchett01]

Whatever the protocol, I'd say that if they were awarded to you, go ahead and wear them. Remembrance parades are already peppered with blokes covered in those pseudo medals such as the National Service Medal and many more which are available to anyone who wishes to shell out thirty odd quid a go. Pinning your Saudi and Kuwaiti medals under your official group certainly wouldn't qualify you as a Walt in my book - but mind you they are 'orrible medals - why bother?!

I think that people do take certain liberties once retired, but frankly I think you’d have to be slightly grumpy to kick up a fuss about medals that were awarded but can’t officially be worn (rather than bought ones) being worn in retirement. You even see current serving occassionally doing it with their miniatures; I’ve seen the NATO ISAF medal quite often with Mess kit and nobody seems to mind. Other than the sticklers who would probably find fault in a happy hour full of free beer and nurses!

[Tankertrashnav]

... who would probably find fault in a happy hour full of free beer and nurses!

I always missed those :(

Like the coach load of Swedish nymphomaniacs who always arrived ten minutes after I left a party!

[BEagle]

Tengah Type, I can't recall whether you were at the VC10 do at the Witney Lakes a couple or so years ago?

Certainly one well-known ex-Air Eng (wae'aye man!) was sporting the Kuwaiti Liberation medals awarded by Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, together with all his other miniatures...:ok:

Protocol be bug gered - wear them if you were awarded them! Palace fag-hags and medal nerds might not like it, but Walting it isn't!

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, was the Barnsley Witch before your time?

[taxydual]

The Barnsley Witch? Not the Goblin Teasmade of FY fame?

Oh, this is going waaaaaay off topic.

Ah, but perhaps, medals should have been awarded if you lived to tell the tale!

Perhaps awarded to the 'Lady' for Long Service. The Good Conduct bit could be difficult to explain!

Oh, I don't know though.

[Tengah Type]

WanderOO

I live in Hourtin 33990 in the heart of the Medoc. I will contact the RAFA SO
Branch. I have not previously been a member of RAFA but will join.

BEagle

Yes, I was at the Witney Lakes VC10 function, last to leave the bar, and retire to my Campingcar in the car park for the night. I can not remember if YI (as it said on his airshow name tag) was wearing the aforementioned " 'orrible medals" ,but remember a Hero of the Russian People bemoaning the several hundred pounds he was forced to fork out for a specially made miniature.

[Wander00]

Tengah - we will be pleased to see you. Terry Dennett is Sec and his wife Beryl Dennett Stannard is Madam la Presidente. They will be pleased to hear from you at [email protected]


Cheers W

[Tengah Type]

WanderOO

Many thanks. Job done.

[BEagle]

Actually, TT, he was awarded the 'Order of Friendship'.

Did he sort Vlad out with a nice watch ;) ?

[Whenurhappy]

Out of nostalgia, i had my LSGCM and clasp court mounted along with my other round medals, along with the miniatures. i sought out quotes from the usual suspects but ended up getting a colleague from MOD to get them done at Wellington Barracks.

All I can say is what a mess. Wrong ribbon for a foreign one (I provided new ribbons) and all crooked. The miniature LSGCM is of extremely poor quality and was mounted without the clasp! Apparently the tailor sent them to Deepcut...anyway it also costed me a cool £98.

[Onceapilot]

As I have highlighted in the "Do you believe Mrs May" Christmas message to the Armed forces thread, I also see that the dichotomy of support for Service veterans and political words remains in full flood in respect of the insulting imposition of the post May 2014 limiting date of the LSGC award. Merry Christmas to you to Mrs May! :p

OAP

[Melchett01]

So how far back do you go then if you want retrospective awards?

[Pontius Navigator]

Melchett, 1942 at least.

[Onceapilot]

So how far back do you go then if you want retrospective awards?

Well Meltchy, it would appear that the power of reason has prevailed in some cases of over 50 years. :D But, that is not the issue here. The validity of the case for alignment of awards for commissioned and non-commissioned personnel was a sound one. This is borne-out by the introduction of the present medal. However, the new absurd situation has been created, by limiting the new criteria to awards only to Officer's who retired after May 2014. By this purely mean spirited action, a greater prejudice has been created. Previously, most long serving Officer's would not qualify. Now, all Officers who serve long enough and retire after May 2014 can qualify but, regardless of how many decades one served, if you retired before May 2014 you will not be recognised. The stupidity of the 2014 rule is outstanding! :rolleyes:

Merry Christmas

OAP

[Melchett01]

Melchett, 1942 at least.

PN, well why not 1916 then? There’s got to be a line somewhere, seems to me this was one of those issues that was always going to be a case of the wrong decision.

[Onceapilot]

PN, well why not 1916 then? There’s got to be a line somewhere, seems to me this was one of those issues that was always going to be a case of the wrong decision.

Why? The award could have been made back to any date, with the caveat that the gong would only be presented free to those still in service, if the cost is such a big issue for the "Fifth largest economy in the world"? :rolleyes:

OAP

[Sloppy Link]

Well Meltchy, it would appear that the power of reason has prevailed in some cases of over 50 years. :D But, that is not the issue here. The validity of the case for alignment of awards for commissioned and non-commissioned personnel was a sound one. This is borne-out by the introduction of the present medal. However, the new absurd situation has been created, by limiting the new criteria to awards only to Officer's who retired after May 2014. By this purely mean spirited action, a greater prejudice has been created. Previously, most long serving Officer's would not qualify. Now, all Officers who serve long enough and retire after May 2014 can qualify but, regardless of how many decades one served, if you retired before May 2014 you will not be recognised. The stupidity of the 2014 rule is outstanding! :rolleyes:

Merry Christmas

OAP

29 Jul 14. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/medals-campaigns-descriptions-and-eligibility#current-meritorious-and-long-service-medals

[Pontius Navigator]

Melchett, AFAIK the only medals awarded in 1916 were Pop, Squeak and Wilfred. You qualified or you didn't. There was no contention over qualification. The Arctic Star was retrospective and awarded to retired personnel or their NOK.

The LSGC medal was also retrospective and similarly awarded to retired personnel and NOK (among others) but limited to an arbitrary period.

[Tankertrashnav]

Also The Mercantile Marine Medal P-N - but I'm just being pedantic! ;)

[Old-Duffer]

'ang about a bit.

Wasn't there something called the Territorial Force Medal (or similar) 1914-1919, which was issued in 1920 to people like nurses etc?

O-D

[Pontius Navigator]

O-D, correct, so that pushes precedent back to 4 Aug 1914. And it was an either or medal similar to Burma/Pacific Star.

OTOH setting criteria dates is something the committee seems love.

I am with OAP for those that want some bling.

[Old-Duffer]

I offer a couple of seeming inconsistencies, which perhaps ought to be examined.

RAF Reserve personnel in certain categories (eg those holding CC commissions, such as permanent staff at ATC HQs) were not eligible for any of the jubilee medals, even though the RAFVR(T) staff they commanded were. With the extension of the LSGCM to officers, this group is still ineligible.

The status of an officer who has left the service before 2014 but then returns to regular service, seems unclear. Can that person count their pre-2014 time as qualifying service towards the award of the LSGCM when they return to regular service?

Can I also cite a personal example of inconsistent regulations regarding medal awards.

On leaving the RAF, I was commissioned into the RAFVR(T) and could have 'claimed' three years regular service towards the 12 years required for the award of the Cadet Forces Medal (CFM). However, as I had a period as a civilian instructor with the ATC between the two commissions, I could not count those three years because there was a break of service. Now the unbroken service clause no longer applies for the CFM and so I have eligible cadets service over 18 plus three years regular service, with another three years since the award of the CFM and hence should have received a first clasp (6 more years) and be well on my way to a second clasp - BUT - apparently not.

Old Duffer

[BEagle]

I'm not sure about the fairness of the LS&GCM for those currently serving. From what I've read:
To qualify for the award, officers must be serving in the Regular Armed Forces on or after 29 July 2014 and other ranks must be serving on or after 1 October 2016 and both must have completed 15 years Regular service, free and clear of any disciplinary entry on their records.

15 years? In 2014 the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 tariff for a 4 year custodial sentence was reduced from 'never spent' to 7 years - yet the LS&GCM criteria for some mere 'Axminster shuffler' is more than twice that.... So someone deemed not to qualify for this piece of bling will be stigmatised for 15 years in a very public way whenever medals are to be worn?

Is that really fair in this day and age? Or should the 'free from sin' period be reviewed to reflect the amendments to the Act?

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle, and those who retired before the magic date carrying their discharge letter to prove they were not excluded be reasons of some crime.

[gijoe]

BEagle, and those who retired before the magic date carrying their discharge letter to prove they were not excluded be reasons of some crime.

The whole LS&GC for officers issue is pathetic and smacks of a medal system that is outdated and totally out of touch with those that receive them.

[Tankertrashnav]

'ang about a bit.

Wasn't there something called the Territorial Force Medal (or similar) 1914-1919, which was issued in 1920 to people like nurses etc?


Indeed there was O-D. To clarify, it was only awarded to territorials who had completed 4 years service before 4 August 1914, and who had undertaken to serve outside the Uk (not compulsory for territorials). As P-N correctly states it was an either/or medal - you couldn't get this one and the 1914 or 1914-Star. Consequently it is a scarce medal, only 34,000 were issued as opposed to well over 2 million 1914-15 Stars.

As you say it was awarded to nurses but only those who met the above requirements.

It's worth pointing out that qualification criteria were very tough at the time. I once bought a single British War Medal to a soldier who had been lost at sea when his transport ship was torpedoed on its way out to the Dardanelles. I assumed his 1914-15 Star and Victory Medal had been lost, but research showed that he had never been awarded them, as he was deemed never to have been on active service - getting torpedoed and drowned didn't count! Something to think about for those who are moaning that they are not going to get the LS&GC!

[Onceapilot]

'
Something to think about for those who are moaning that they are not going to get the LS&GC!

TTN
Do you feel that is a fair comment TTN? :ouch:

OAP

[frodo_monkey]

Speaking as someone due to get one, yes. I see it much the same as the Jubilee medals; might look ok on a Remembrance Sunday, but ultimately a chocolate medal that I haven’t earned.

I’d much rather any available money (of which there isn’t any) spent on a medal to reward those participating in Op SHADER who don’t qualify currently (Reaper Force, FJ TG1, CAOC etc).

[Onceapilot]

Well FR, well done! But again, you fall into the trap, being derisive. You are entitled to your opinion but, there is more to this. You may have qualified for other awards but, it is also quite likely that you have missed-out on others due to time and place? This can happen, despite making major contributions and just not making the criteria. One of the background attributes of long service recognition is..just that! Long Service, not always recognised. TBH, I am not impressed by those who slag awards for Military Service.
BTW, you do not have to wear it.

OAP

Posted before your edit. Your EDIT reference to other meritorius awards that are lacking in breadth is still not helped by slaging others, IMO.

[frodo_monkey]

Well FR, well done! But again, you fall into the trap, being derisive. You are entitled to your opinion but, there is more to this. You may have qualified for other awards but, it is also quite likely that you have missed-out on others due to time and place? This can happen, despite making major contributions and just not making the criteria. One of the background attributes of long service recognition is..just that! Long Service, not always recognised. TBH, I am not impressed by those who slag awards for Military Service.
BTW, you do not have to wear it.

OAP

Posted before your edit. Your EDIT reference to other meritorius awards that are lacking in breadth is still not helped by slaging others, IMO.

I don’t see I’m being particularly derisive; I really don’t see the issue with the LS&GCM. I actually agree with the previous LS&GCM position - having accepted the Queen’s Commission, your good conduct should not be a question. Accordingly the medal becomes a medal for ‘turning up’, and where’s the value in that?

[frodo_monkey]

Meant to say, I see it much like the argument for a National Defence Medal (couldn’t remember the name I saw on a petition). Why not give everyone who has done one day in the military a medal? In my opinion doing so would cheapen the value of the medals people do have...

Not meaning to be argumentative or a “name-caller”, I just don’t particularly feel proud of either my QDJM or the LS&GCM I have inbound. I probably wouldn’t bother getting it mounted if I didn’t have the SHADER one coming at the same time.

[Onceapilot]

FR
If you have such strong convictions about your awards, don't get them mounted then!
But please, don't come on here slaging "chocolate medals" etc,etc. :=

OAP

[frodo_monkey]

Well argue your case - why do you feel hard done by in not being awarded a LS&GCM? I agree that the arbitrary date of 2014 is quite a strange decision; indeed, as stated above I think the status quo prior to then was fine. Why do you feel that you should be awarded the medal, barring “Bloggs left in 2016 and he has one”? Genuinely curious - certainly not wanting to start a Boxing Day argument!

[Tankertrashnav]

Do you feel that is a fair comment TTN? OAP

Well as I didn't do long enough to qualify for an LS&GC whatever the date criteria I feel I can be neutral on this. All I meant to say was that if the powers that be felt that if a man who was killed as a result of enemy action still didn't qualify for campaign medals as he hadn't actually reached the theatre he was heading for, then putting an arbitrary limit on which officers may qualify for a long service medal seems a fairly trivial matter by comparison.

Incidentally I was chatting to my old plotter on the phone and discovered he hadn't heard about this medal. I told him that his service dates would not qualify him for the award, but he said he would probably have failed on the "good conduct" side of things anyway!

[Onceapilot]

Quote TTN
"All I meant to say was that if the powers that be felt that if a man who was killed as a result of enemy action still didn't qualify for campaign medals as he hadn't actually reached the theatre he was heading for, then putting an arbitrary limit on which officers may qualify for a long service medal seems a fairly trivial matter by comparison."

Yep, I am with you there TTN.:ok:
My point is that you also chose to write,
"Something to think about for those who are moaning that they are not going to get the LS&GC!"
Please say why you imply that "those who are moaning" would not already fully understand and sympathise with others who are treated badly by the system?
Cheers

OAP

[BEagle]

gijoe wrote:The whole LS&GC for officers issue is pathetic and smacks of a medal system that is outdated and totally out of touch with those that receive them.

Fully agree. What's the point in recognising appearance time and brown-nosing?

I'd far sooner see something awarded to air-and-groundcrews who supported UK QRA at some time or other - whether interceptor, V-bomber or AD tanker force members.

[Onceapilot]

FR, you are late on parade. The concept is simple and has been well aired on the "Whopee! Medals for all!" thread over a year ago.

OAP

[ExAscoteer]

I'd far sooner see something awarded to air-and-groundcrews who supported UK QRA at some time or other.

If you are going to go down that road then what about the Maritime crews who held SAR or who tracked Russian boats?

Or the Albert crews who held Q?

[Pontius Navigator]

ExA, which starts to emulate the US route, a medal with a posting notice. I think we went round that buoy earlier in this thread but medals for Brass Nut, Dirty Dicks, Strait Street, Heroes Square, Bugis Street, perhaps with a Kokinelli Star and no doubt many others for places various in RAFG.

[frodo_monkey]

FR, you are late on parade. The concept is simple and has been well aired on the "Whopee! Medals for all!" thread over a year ago.

OAP

I’ve just read that, as Boxing Day TV is pretty poor. I’m still not any the wiser - I agree that the imposition of an arbitrary date in 2014 is divisive, but there has been a divide between the “qualifies” and the “don’t qualifies” for every medal that I can think of.

The Silver Jubilee medal was only awarded to a handful of people in the 70s - should we revisit that? I was serving in 2002 when the Golden Jubilee medal came out, but didn’t get one as I hadn’t done 5 years - whereas my ex-UAS colleagues did. Should we revisit that decision? I do know that I don’t feel bitter at all that I don’t have a Golden Jubilee medal...

I’m never convinced on the ‘National Defence Medal’ argument either - people get a very nice lapel badge saying ‘Veteran’ when they leave, along with a lifetime of memories and friends; isn’t that enough?

[Whenurhappy]

One area that has been inconsistent has been to diplomatic staff in posts supporting operations or within the joint operational area.

I spent a bit of time (over three years) in a middle eastern state directly supporting operations from the Embassy, yet this did not qualify me for the operational medal. in contrast other personnel who served at a HQ for four months did. This risk and rigour aspect was debatable: all vehicle travel for me was in a civilian armoured vehicle and on occasions i wore covert body armour as well. I narrowly avoided two large terrorist attacks and the risk to life and limb was much greater and more persistent than those at the coalition HQs.

And then there was the shameful awarding of the Kosovo and FRY NATO medals to those who spent 3 or more months drinking cappuccinos at Frankie's in AFSOUTH/JFC Naples. I had served in both theatres and resented being regarded as a Naples REMF.

But it's also water under the bridge; I'm proud of my service and my medals but apart from the annual airing on Remembrance Sunday or the miniatures at a College dinner, i will never wear them or my ribbons again on a uniform.

I joined when few people wore medals; I have left when two rows are common (and justified), and as mentioned in an earlier post just qualified for the LSGCM and clasp. I dare say in a few years time the debate will continue to smoulder as those with a rash of operational medals leave.

[gijoe]

I joined when few people wore medals; I have left when two rows are common (and justified), and as mentioned in an earlier post just qualified for the LSGCM and clasp. I dare say in a few years time the debate will continue to smoulder as those with a rash of operational medals leave.

...it will. And there will be those junior personnel of all ranks and colours of uniform who will leave after becoming totally bemused by a system that pretends to send them on op tours to Cyprus, Jordan, Turkey, Oman, Qatar etc but doesn't see that as more relavent than LS&GC-earning time spent behind a desk in Blighty.

G

[RetiredBA/BY]

BEagle, and those who retired before the magic date carrying their discharge letter to prove they were not excluded be reasons of some crime.

https://gallery.mailchimp.com/bc1328464a6603c782a5bc55b/images/2e3db11f-fe93-4e41-be81-3051333e30aa.png

[camelspyyder]

I’ve just read that, as Boxing Day TV is pretty poor. I’m still not any the wiser - I agree that the imposition of an arbitrary date in 2014 is divisive, but there has been a divide between the “qualifies” and the “don’t qualifies” for every medal that I can think of.

The Silver Jubilee medal was only awarded to a handful of people in the 70s - should we revisit that? I was serving in 2002 when the Golden Jubilee medal came out, but didn’t get one as I hadn’t done 5 years - whereas my ex-UAS colleagues did. Should we revisit that decision? I do know that I don’t feel bitter at all that I don’t have a Golden Jubilee medal...

I’m never convinced on the ‘National Defence Medal’ argument either - people get a very nice lapel badge saying ‘Veteran’ when they leave, along with a lifetime of memories and friends; isn’t that enough?

I just received it. It's a crap lapel badge and my 55 year old eyes cannot make out the decoration on it unaided.

[Haraka]

Provided my pension comes through every month:

"Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn"

[Pontius Navigator]

I have just received a splendid replacement with a clutch pin. It was to replace one with a brooch pin that defied all efforts to get it out of its box.

I sent it by courier on the 20th and got its replacement today. What splendid service for an excellent device.

[Dougie M]

With reference to the alleged "Long Service" medal for Officers. Logic dictates that there should be a date of commencement for the qualification rather than a cut off point for service. The award being a "Queen's medal", there being no precedent, should commence for serving Officers at her coronation and the first qualification date would be in 1968. This should remove the argument over entitlement. the 2014 arbitrary date was conjured out of nowhere. Numbers of awards are far less than the thousands of W.O.s SNCOs and airmens' medals issued over the same time period.

[Old-Duffer]

Dougie M,

An interesting 'take' on the eligibility issue. However, until about 198???? the qualifying period for the LS&GCM was 18 years, so a little 'fettling' might be required.

That said, there is some suggestion that the date set was in some measure related to cost of 'legacy' awards but the situation is that an officer who might have qualified in the past, would often have been subject to a more rigorous code of conduct than is now the case (eg more lenient view of drink driving and the politely called - social misconduct). It could be argued that in the past one was more deserving of the award than is now the case.

A further issue with officers no longer in the RAF, is how to assess their conduct and what sort of appeals process might there be - say - from somebody invited to leave the RAF for an offence which might now warrant no more than an interview without coffee.

Old Duffer - 30 plus years - (as my mother said of my father) - for undetected crime!

[Pontius Navigator]

Phil is sporting a full set of Good Conduct bars so past performance . . .

[Old-Duffer]

Ah.......... but PN, this is a clear case of 'one law for us and another for them'!

Just think of what might be made of your future King's earlier conduct (and I understand by his own admission!!).

O-D (packing a case, lest I am called to the tower (of London, not Sleaford)

[Pontius Navigator]

OD, I guess Andy and Ed will be wearing them too though I see Andy in civvies more often than not.

[teeteringhead]

I see Andy in civvies more often than not. Probably the same problem many of us have - uniforms shrinking in the wardrobe..........

[Tankertrashnav]

Just think of what might be made of your future King's earlier conduct (and I understand by his own admission!!).

There is a precedent there. An earlier long serving Prince of Wales put it about a great deal while waiting for his mother to vacate the throne, and all the while he was supposedly respectably married to the future Queen Alexandra. By all accounts as King Edward VII he was generally respected as a monarch.

Going off at a tangent, as a young Scots Guardsman my father was on parade for the funeral of Queen Alexandra. Quite a link to a bygone age.

[Old-Duffer]

Ah........... TTH, how right you are. However, Andy has been promoted several times and is now a Vice Admiral, I understand. Surely a 'prince of the blood royal' does not just shove - or get a flunky to shove - his uniform at a tailor to be re ranked. One would hope he would get a new one. Mind you, his sister's husband is a real Vice Admiral, so perhaps they share a hat.

Old Duffer

[Pontius Navigator]

O-D, KGVI didn't get a new No 1 when they changed to 3 buttons, he had the tunic shortened with the join hidden under the belt.