Americas latest hi-tech combat aircraft to take the war to ISIS [Archive]

NutLoose

9th Mar 2016, 14:43

Is........ The mighty Bronco

America?s Antique Planes Battling ISIS (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/america%E2%80%99s-antique-planes-battling-isis/ar-AAgyucu?li=BBnb7Kz)

now where did we put those Wessex?

It makes sense, I wonder if it will lead to orders of aircraft such as the Cessna Scorpion.

PersonFromPorlock

9th Mar 2016, 15:09

Another half-measure, now over. Not a bad idea, mind you, but even good ideas don't avail much in the face of unserious application.

pettinger93

9th Mar 2016, 15:44

How about building some new DH Hornets ( Eric Winkle's favourite propeller aircraft : a development of the WW2 Mosquito). Fast, cheap and, being made from wood, a low radar signature.

Lonewolf_50

9th Mar 2016, 15:50

Depending on what UAV's you have available, some of them can do what a Bronco does. That said, I like it. Not every target needs a silver bullet.

Vzlet

9th Mar 2016, 15:52

Perhaps a solution for anyone with F-35-delay issues.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/OV-10_Broncos_of_VMO-1_on_USS_Saipan_%28LHA-2%29_1987.JPEG/220px-OV-10_Broncos_of_VMO-1_on_USS_Saipan_%28LHA-2%29_1987.JPEG

(Larger version here (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/OV-10_Broncos_of_VMO-1_on_USS_Saipan_%28LHA-2%29_1987.JPEG).)

PhilipG

9th Mar 2016, 16:00

An interesting decision to use old Broncos, as I recall a Jordanian F16 was shot down by ISIS a few years ago, the pilot was then murdered. What extra did the Bronco bringing to the party that a drone could not?

Herod

9th Mar 2016, 16:35

Am I missing something? The picture of the Bronco (very nice) is captioned "Four Broncos in a diamond formation". Either they're stacked one above another (very tight diamond) or it's "same way, same day"

NutLoose

9th Mar 2016, 17:13

Well the Bronco could carry pax Phillip.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Rockwell_OV-10_Bronco

Kitbag

9th Mar 2016, 17:34

Always surprised me it could carry 5? paratroopers.

PhilipG

9th Mar 2016, 18:01

GlobalNav

9th Mar 2016, 18:08

I suppose my real point is why would anyone want to go over Iraq or Syria in a Bronco, even if they are paratroops, when they know that if shot down they would be meeting their maker on You Tube quite quickly. Looking for 15 minutes of fame?

Not to make a conclusive military judgment, but the OV-10 has a good bit of history (US Marines and USAF) operating in places where they would attract ground fire from folks who truly knew how to dish it out. Fast-movers were also known to be vulnerable to anti-aircraft weapons in the same places. So it's not necessarily a bad idea to try the OV-10 out in Syria and see if it can materially contribute to the effort.

Danny42C

9th Mar 2016, 18:18

Nutloose (your #1),

(My #7334, 22 Aug 2015, in "Pilot's Brevet...")
...As I see it there are only two questions:

1. Are we going to get it ?...... 2. If we do, will it work ?

There is one sure-fire way of settling "2". Find a war going on somewhere and think up a rationale for supplying a few F-35 to one side. There is nothing like a war for showing what kit works - and what doesn't ! (I've been told the "Sidewinder" was "Road-tested" in this way, but then you hear all sorts of things)....
(Relevant to the matter under discussion ?)

Danny.

West Coast

9th Mar 2016, 21:53

cokecan

10th Mar 2016, 11:28

and which do we think will be easier to shoot down - an F-16 doing 500kts at 10,000ft with the ability to be doing 1,000kts at 20,000ft 30 seconds later should the hot stuff start coming a bit close, or a Bronco doing 200kts at 10,000ft with the ability to be doing 210 kts at 10,100ft 30 seconds later if the hot stuff starts coming a bit close?

IS have scored one in the umpteen thousand goes they had at fast jets, if we give them umpteen thousand opportunities to fire at an OV-10, how many do you think they'll get?

NutLoose

10th Mar 2016, 11:56

I would have thought a lot will depend on which is chucking out the greater heat signature...

Martin the Martian

10th Mar 2016, 12:19

The Bronco can still fly faster than an Apache or a Cobra, I notice, and if Tony de Bruin's ex-German OV-10 is anything to go by, it can certainly be thrown around the sky in a pleasingly agile fashion.

Now there's a thought for the AAC's Apache replacement: new Broncos fitted out with the appropriate avionics and weapons and with the gun turret once trialled on it. The higher echelons of the RAF would have a fit.

LowObservable

10th Mar 2016, 12:27

Missile launch warning detectors + flares (the OV-10G+ appears to have both, from publicly available photos) have proven quite effective against MANPADS. Turboprop exhausts at the edge of the missile's envelope (10,000-15,000 ft slant range) are not a huge target.

Other differences since the last time anyone used an OV-10 in combat include much better EO/IR sensors and digital map displays, which do a lot for SA at altitudes above the golden-BB (and even medium-cal AAA) range.

It also has two crew, both with a good view and the Mk 1 eyeball's wide-angle coverage, rather than being confined to the soda-straw EO picture, and it doesn't rely on a satellite link.

wanabee777

10th Mar 2016, 12:40

Next thing you know, they'll be resurrecting the A-1 Skyraider.

QFWEaNJxnW4

andyy

10th Mar 2016, 13:16

Wasn't there a desire to deploy them to Afghanistan in some quarters several years ago? And didn't this desire result in trials of a Super Tucano for a similar COIN role.

I even vaguely remember day dreams of RAF Tucanos being armed for Afganistan duties, although nothing came of that.

West Coast

10th Mar 2016, 13:55

Coochycool

10th Mar 2016, 14:47

Wouldnt the A-10 give you the best of both worlds? Wasnt designed the way it was for nothing!

Rosevidney1

10th Mar 2016, 18:08

I thought the Mohawk was even more capable than the Bronco.

chopper2004

10th Mar 2016, 19:50

Boeing had proposed the OV-10X a few years back

http://www.ov-10bronco.net/Technical/boeing_ov-10%28x%29_super_bronco_info_card_2009_01.pdf

and of course

Combat Dragon II

The Amazing OV-10 Bronco Was Never Allowed To Meet Its Full Potential (http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-amazing-ov-10-bronco-was-never-allowed-to-meet-its-1695837367)

megan

10th Mar 2016, 23:59

Next thing you know, they'll be resurrecting the A-1 SkyraiderWith the appropriate weaponry as well

http://militaryhumor.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/military-humor-funny-joke-soldier-air-force-USS-midway-VA-25-toilet-wc-aircraft-bomb-1.jpg

Ensure the armourers have filled container with requisite contents during pre flight

NutLoose

11th Mar 2016, 00:42

Looks familiar shape and one wonders if Boeing will be pushing it as a Bronco replacement

Boeing and Paramount join forces for multi-role aircraft | The National (http://www.thenational.ae/business/aviation/boeing-and-paramount-join-forces-for-multi-role-aircraft)

AtomKraft

11th Mar 2016, 06:24

If a modern Bronco is good, a modern Skyraider would be better.

No way could a Bronco haul bombs like a Spad.

Octane

11th Mar 2016, 08:45

I really don't get why the A-10 is not in theatre......

Martin the Martian

11th Mar 2016, 08:59

I seem to recall that the reason the A-1 was adopted by the USAF in Vietnam was that the fast whizzy pointy things were not always the right tool for the job, and that was in a high risk environment with regard to enemy fighters. With that in mind it is hardly surprising that in an environment with no enemy aircraft and threat from MANPADs only that slower, cheaper aircraft are being looked on with favour.

And though my earlier post was very much tongue in cheek, why would a Bronco be unacceptable in anti-ISIS ops while an Apache would not? Or has anyone else noticed how, over the last few decades the attack helicopter has grown in provenance at the same time that slow COIN aircraft have waned? Perhaps this is showing that it is the attack helicopter that is the dead end concept, not the slow moving fixed wing COIN aircraft?

chopper2004

11th Mar 2016, 09:33

Ummm interesting, but always going to need a dedicated AH on the battlefield - for the simple fact of hovering, then popping up , fire etc etc...

Also if you look at the Brazilian Air Force - their Mi-35 Hinds were bought to .......replace their Super Tucanos...

IMHO is that COIN slow movers are complement to AH ....

USMC aviation FOB assets in the 80s were the following

AH-1J/T/W
UH-1N
OV-10A/D
CH-46E
CH-53E
AV-8B

For sure the VMO squadrons could always be found with the HMLA / HMM / HMH base such as New River or Camp Pendleton,

cheers

andyy

11th Mar 2016, 12:56

I agree about the A-10, and the 2 seater version that was mooted (I think 1 prototype was built, and am OA-10 was mooted) would be even better in the armed FAC role.

West Coast

11th Mar 2016, 14:21

it is hardly surprising that in an environment with no enemy aircraft and threat from MANPADs only that slower, cheaper aircraft are being looked on with favour.

You're not inferring there weren't SA-7s running around the jungles of Vietnam are you?

Martin the Martian

11th Mar 2016, 14:45

Not at all. I'm well aware that SA-7s were being toted around and popped off at US aircraft on a regular basis in South East Asia.

I was referring to the present day environment such as Iraq in which there are no enemy aircraft present and the missile threat is from MANPADs only. I could have phrased it a little clearer, however.

West Coast

11th Mar 2016, 14:56

Understood, thanks.

TEEEJ

11th Mar 2016, 19:43

Octane wrote I really don't get why the A-10 is not in theatre......

A-10s should still be there. They were in action during November 2015 in Syria.

In a news briefing Wednesday, Inherent Resolve spokesman Army Col. Steve Warren said the strikes destroyed 116 tanker trucks.

The video showed bombs exploding at the beginning and end, Warren said, and strafing runs from A-10 Thunderbolts and C-130s.

A-10s and C-130s destroy Islamic State fuel trucks (http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/11/19/video-of-airstrikes-targeting-isis-oil-released/76041990/)

hXvrfmzH05M&feature=related

Danny42C

12th Mar 2016, 10:30

wanabee777 (your #18)
Next thing you know, they'll be resurrecting the A-1 Skyraider.
Now, there's a real aeroplane ! About the size of my Vultee Vengeance (A-31 to you), a lot heavier loaded, but with 1,000 hp more 'poke' could do the business. (Brute Force can solve many problems). Probably much the same as a VV to handle. Glad to see that they've discarded the twist'n-pushback u/c at last.

Thank you for the nice bit of You Tube, thought the chap was going to dive-bomb with it, but without dive brakes could end badly.

Rather sardonically amused by the Posters above, who are concerned with the possibility of being shot down, and what might happen afterwards. What did they imagine they would be getting into if they signed on the dotted line for Uncle Sam ? (Good thing your Grandfathers didn't think like that in their time).

Danny42C.

Martin the Martian

12th Mar 2016, 12:11

Danny 42C said:

Rather sardonically amused by the Posters above, who are concerned with the possibility of being shot down, and what might happen afterwards. What did they imagine they would be getting into if they signed on the dotted line for Uncle Sam ? (Good thing your Grandfathers didn't think like that in their time).

Except of course that these days they will star in their own rather short reality TV show available across the internet. If they're lucky they'll be beheaded; if not, they'll be burned alive.

Danny42C

12th Mar 2016, 13:23

Martin the Martian,
...if not, they'll be burned alive...
The probable fate of a good proportion of Bomber Command's 55,000+ dead.

wanabee777

13th Mar 2016, 14:15

Danny,

While TDY at RAF Mildenhall, occasionally we would get time to visit the surrounding area. By chance, on an outing down to Cambridge, my crew and I stumbled upon the American Cemetery nearby. It was a very sobering experience for us young stud novice airmen.

Extremely humbling.

megan

14th Mar 2016, 02:16

thought the chap was going to dive-bomb with it, but without dive brakes could end badlyDanny, the A-1 has massive air brakes. They consist of a large slab on each side of the fuselage hinged in line with the wing trailing edge, and also a slab beneath the fuselage. Whether they could be modulated I don't know, but if they were fully extended I'd imagine you could almost parachute down (tongue firmly in cheek). Trim change (nose up) with the belly panel may have been an issue, as it was on the T-28.

Lonewolf_50

14th Mar 2016, 14:20

I seem to recall that the reason the A-1 was adopted by the USAF in Vietnam They didn't. The A-1 Skyraider was a carrier bird, flown by the USN. The USAF did fly the T-28D Trojans. (My uncle got a lot of hours in them).

sycamore

14th Mar 2016, 15:12

LW50,suggest you google A1-Skyraider in USAF service......or the Spad website....

megan

15th Mar 2016, 01:12

Lonewolf, the A-1 was widely used by the USN, USAF and VNAF in Vietnam. One USAF pilot earned the Medal of Honor whilst fly an A-1.

Maj Bernie Fisher's Page (http://www.skyraider.org/skyassn/fisher/fishermoh.htm)

Danny42C

15th Mar 2016, 03:22

megan (#39),
...Danny, the A-1 has massive air brakes. They consist of a large slab on each side of the fuselage hinged in line with the wing trailing edge, and also a slab beneath the fuselage. Whether they could be modulated I don't know, but if they were fully extended I'd imagine you could almost parachute down (tongue firmly in cheek). Trim change (nose up) with the belly panel may have been an issue, as it was on the T-28...
That, plus the natural nose-up effect of acceleration in a dive, might have limited the dive to (say) 60°, beyond which it would not be possible to trim the nose-up out.

So, it's looking even more like my A-31 (Vultee Vengeance) ! You learn something new every day.

Danny.

Danny42C

15th Mar 2016, 03:25

wanabee777 (#38),

Yes, the B-17s and B-24s of the "Mighty Eighth" suffered just as cruelly as our Bomber Command.

(As you probably guessed from my callsign, I did my Primary School at Carlstrom Field, Arcadia, '41, on the Arnold Scheme of the Army Air Corps).

Danny.

LowObservable

15th Mar 2016, 11:55

Skyraider, about to commit dive bombing:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/AD_extended_dive_break_NAN9-50.jpg/640px-AD_extended_dive_break_NAN9-50.jpg

Note that it was the first production Navy aircraft designed for both dive and torpedo bombing and was originally designated BT2D-1.

Lonewolf_50

15th Mar 2016, 14:04

Herod

15th Mar 2016, 17:59

Ref Danny's posts on losses. When the American Air Museum at Duxford re-opens, the entrance is via a very large glass wall, which carries a silhouette of every aircraft lost by the Americans in Europe. It is a very large wall, with very small silhouettes. Makes you think. I've just checked, and it opens this coming Saturday (19.3)

megan

16th Mar 2016, 01:40

Nothing to be embarrassed about Lonewolf. Never ever saw an A-1 do dive bombing in Vietnam, not to say it didn't though.

Danny42C

16th Mar 2016, 03:31

Low Observable,

Nice pic - what can't speak, can't lie. Would like to have tried the thing to see what it was like in the dive. And, with all that power (320 mph top whack), even if it was too clumsy to fight, at least it had the legs to run away !

It seems the Navy had some, do we know what the True Blue thought of them ?

Danny.

EDIT: Lazy devil ! - look it up in Wiki ! Did so, enormous amount of information, seems as it was mostly used in ground attack and shallow bombing, could carry a torpedo, but no mention of dive-bombing anywhere except in the list of types.

Ten hours strapped to the seat. Hard on the bum ! Now from Wiki:
...Most operational losses were due to the tremendous power of the AD. ADs that were "waved-off" during carrier recovery operations were prone to perform a fatal torque roll into the sea or the deck of the aircraft carrier if the pilot mistakenly gave the AD too much throttle. The torque of the engine was so great that it would cause the aircraft to rotate about the propeller and slam into the ground or the carrier...
Same thing in the Griffon Spits at low speed - and it caused the strange hopping side-step effect ("right close march !") if you poured the power on too early on take-off.......D.

Vzlet

16th Mar 2016, 23:12

No argument at all that the A-1 is not an ideal dogfighting platform, but these two pairs had quite respectable results against four MiG-17s:
VA-176 MiG Killers 9 Oct 66 (http://skyraider.org/skyassn/sartapes/migkill/migkill.htm)

(With an audio tape of the debrief.)

megan

17th Mar 2016, 00:20

The Royal Navy acquired 50 AD-4W early warning aircraft in 1951 through the Military Assistance Program. All Skyraider AEW.1s were operated by 849 Naval Air Squadron, which provided four-plane detachments for the British carriers. One flight aboard HMS Bulwark took part in the Suez Crisis in 1956. 778 Naval Air Squadron was responsible for the training of the Skyraider crews at RNAS Culdrose.

In 1960, the Fairey Gannet AEW.3 replaced the Skyraiders, using the APS-20 radar of the Douglas aircraft. The last British Skyraiders were retired in 1962.[29] In the late 1960s, the APS-20 radars from the Skyraiders were installed in Avro Shackleton AEW.2s of the Royal Air Force which were finally retired in 1991.

The British sold 14 aircraft to Sweden. France was another operator.

http://www.airteamimages.com/pics/43/43609_800.jpg

larssnowpharter

18th Mar 2016, 13:34

About 5 years ago I used to see ... quite regularly ... a few OV 10s flying around my place in Mindanao, Philippines. I understand that they had been updated and were equipped with Paveway but were having horrendous losses due to accidents.

Rumour had it that they were going to be replaced with Super Tucanos.

ORAC

18th May 2016, 17:56

Lonewolf_50

18th May 2016, 20:40

Those old OV-10 Broncos Sent To Fight ISIS Were Laser Rocket Slinging Man Hunters (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3519/those-old-ov-10-broncos-sent-to-fight-isis-were-laser-rocket-slinging-manhunters) The story there isn't so much the airframe (though the Bronco done good! Woo Hoo!) but the APKWS and excellent air to ground coordination with the teams they were supporting.

APKWS would have been nice to have sooner ... but I'm glad it is finally operational.