Effect of EMP on modern airliners ?

[rmac]

Just a small question to throw out for general comment.

It would seem to me that the risk of use of tactical or low yield nuclear weapons in some part of the world may have gone up.

Example 1. How might the Russians support Assad (and their own assets) in the event of an invasion of Syria by massed armour of Saudi-Gulf and Turkish Forces. They might elect to use the same defensive tactic that we had scheduled in similar circumstances for the Fulda Gap in the bad old days.

Example 2. The North Koreans are currently nuclear willie waving and threatening some kind of pre-emptive strike of the South. What if its not all just a big bluff and they do have some kind of crude device and delivery system on hand that will do the job.

The question is, if a tac nuke (or two) is set off somewhere in Syria or the Korean peninsular, what is the expected effect of the EMP of the blast on the performance (flyability) of the latest generations of FBW aircraft from messrs Boeing and Airbus ?? ... I don't expect that the systems will have been hardened against an EMP threat and they don't have any mechanical linkages any more ??

If the answer is as I suspect it may be .....whats a safe distance from the epicentre in order to be able to stay in the air at the moment of detonation ?

[riff_raff]

Not much commercial traffic over the DMZ in Korea, or the airspace over Syria. Why would you consider this to be a concern?

[radar101]

Not much commercial traffic over the DMZ in Korea, or the airspace over Syria. Why would you consider this to be a concern?

I guess because we are talking 100s of miles

[Pontius Navigator]

When I was in the trade perceived wisdom was that the other endoatmospheric effects were more significant.

[dctyke]

Many years ago I read a paper on future EMP missiles and nothing since, I would have thought it to be the killer weapon against modern hi tech mil jets. Have also read it has been succesfully used to stop cars dead in American police trials as a tow weapon fired from a chasing car.

[Rhino power]

I assume, and may well be wrong of course, that modern mil aircraft have at least some sort of shielding to their electronics/avionics against the effects of EMP? If not, then that new fangled, electro-stealthwank F-35 gizmo, with it's ALIS and it's trillion lines of software code, is doomed I yell ya, DOOMED!

-RP

[sitigeltfel]

EMP shielding not much use if the crew are blinded by the flash.

[Willard Whyte]

'CHAMP' uses a non-nuclear warhead to generate an EMP. Given that '35 is an intended carrier it's probably got some shielding in place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-electronics_High_Power_Microwave_Advanced_Missile_Project

One might imagine fibre-optical data transmission, as opposed to wires, might be a partial solution to vulnerability.

[Pontius Navigator]

WW, the OP was talking nuclear however non-nuclear EMP is some else.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse#Non-nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse_.28NNEMP.29

[dctyke]

I assume, and may well be wrong of course, that modern mil aircraft have at least some sort of shielding to their electronics/avionics against the effects of EMP? If not, then that new fangled, electro-stealthwank F-35 gizmo, with it's ALIS and it's trillion lines of software code, is doomed I yell ya, DOOMED!

-RP

I always thought anything that has external antennas cannot be shielded. Saying that technology might have created a solution.

[Pontius Navigator]

A clue might be "directed energy weapon"

Similar issues need to be considered with the old fashioned ECM systems to ensure compatibility with own sensors.

[Willard Whyte]

PN, I was responding to the "blinded by the flash' comment, with respect to shielding not being much use.

[Pontius Navigator]

WW, you lost me. I don't see any reference to Flash in your post.

Sitigeltfel, if by flash you mean as in nuclear, thee flash indeed has a far greater range than EMP and its effects can be amplified at night, over snow, in clear air or mitigated by cloud.

[Willard Whyte]

I figured following the post in question was enough.

Like this one.

[rmac]

So to be more specific, if I am sitting, sipping champers in row 4A of a Qatar Airways 787, somewhere over northern Iraq/Iran or Eastern Turkey, and the Russians light up a tactical nuke in Northern Syria, is there a chance that the 787 I am sitting in will cease to fly as designed, or at all, due to EMP, Flash or any other by product of the detonation ??

[Tourist]

Yes there is chance.

Happy now?

[212man]

Some background on the certification requirements for HIRF are here: http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-158A.pdf

[hoss183]

The design of electronics/avionics in the commercial sector in relation to EMC issues/requirements would follow similar methods to hardening it to EMP. Since EMC has come along way in the last 20 years, its likely that newer planes would fare better than older ones in this respect. (although older planes with no electronic critical system fare even better ;)
As far as, will plane x survive, thats hard to say without knowing how close, what field strength etc, but this could be extrapolated from the EMC tests done on avionics at approval stage.

[rmac]

Not really a question of happier or not Tourist.

I fly Asia-Europe-Asia at least twice a month and have come to enjoy the convenience and service of the Gulf carriers.

However, its just another risk factor to consider when choosing my routes in current circumstances. After all, until recently, who would have thought that a BUK would be bringing down a transiting 777 over Ukraine. Worth keeping an eye on developing military-political situations before making travel decisions these days.

This world seems to be presenting an ever increasing wealth of opportunities to become collateral damage.

Thank you Hoss for your interesting insight. Makes sense. Thanks for the link 212, very interesting background.

[wanabee777]

Sandia Labs used to conduct EMP tests on military aircraft at the SE end of KABQ runway 08/26 on the largest metal-free wood laminate structure in the world.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/TRESTLE_EMP_simulator_-_B1B_Bomber_-_Kirtland_Air_Force_Base_-_1989.jpeg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATLAS-I

[m0nkfish]

I think it unlikely you would be in serious trouble (from EMP) in the scenario you described given the distances involved. The serious EMP effects from nuclear weapons occur when detonation takes place at very high altitudes, the gamma radiation passes through the earths atmosphere, physics takes place and the EMP is generated. For low-yield, tactical weapons, detonation is more likely to occur near the ground and due to the yield involved the effects will be less severe. Yields and altitudes are unlikely to exceed those used in the only two examples we have of real world nuclear weapon usage (Hiroshima/Nagasaki), and even then the EMP that was generated would likely only effected a modern airliner if the aircraft was very close to the point of detonation to the extent that it would probably have been catastrophically damaged by the blast/heat wave.

[tdracer]

Disclaimer - I'm not exactly an expert on ElectroMagnetic Interference (EMI), but I do deal with it (basically working with the people who are experts to make sure my engine systems will operate properly in a given EMI environment).
But my understanding is that the current regulations regarding Lightning and HIRF protection provide more than adequate protection from EMP. Basically, if the EMP source is close enough to overwhelm the existing protections, the blast will be a bigger problem than the EMP...:sad:
Note also that while the HIRF/Lightning regulations are fairly recent, aircraft certified in the 1980s were covered by "Special Conditions" related to the EMI threat, and the requirements in those special conditions are not a whole lot different than what ended up in the regulations (principally 25.1316 and 25.1317).

[rmac]

Thanks Monk and TD for the feedback. Good enough for me to make an informed risk analysis on air travel in the region at the moment. Cheers. Rmac

[Pontius Navigator]

rmac, like what I said at #4.

[West Coast]

I think it unlikely you would be in serious trouble (from EMP) in the scenario you described given the distances involved.


Air Force EMP Weapon Confirmed By U.S. Military And Boeing (http://www.inquisitr.com/2122223/air-force-emp-weapon-confirmed-by-u-s-military-and-boeing/)

A device tested in New Mexico affected an airborne aircraft in Utah.

[Tourist]

rmac

Just let me get this right.

When planning your business trip routings, you are taking into account not just the usual SAM attacks, meteor strike etc but also taking into account the chance of nuclear war in the vicinity affecting your aircraft adversely.


I'd love to see the planning that goes into something actually dangerous like one of your car journeys.....:rolleyes:

[Pontius Navigator]

West Coast et al. The OP was talking about EMP from a tactical nuclear weapon where heat and blast would destroy the aircraft at greater ranges than NEMP. NNEMP from directed energy weapons is a whole different ball game.

[m0nkfish]

West Coast,

The article you posted describes a device that is specifically designed to generate an EMP. A tactical nuclear weapon, which is what the OP was querying and is the basis for the scenario my reply was constructed on, is not designed to generate an EMP and only does so as a by product. You can create an EMP at home with a capacitor and some wire, you don't need a nuclear device to create an EMP.

[rmac]

rmac, like what I said at #4.

Yup . . . agreed

[rmac]

[QUOTE=Tourist;9307429]rmac

Just let me get this right.

When planning your business trip routings, you are taking into account not just the usual SAM attacks, meteor strike etc but also taking into account the chance of nuclear war in the vicinity affecting your aircraft adversely.

Ahem....correct me if I'm wrong, but a 777 did actually get a SAM up its tailpipe didn't it ? Which was directly connected to routing over an active war zone wasn't it ?

I might put a different risk analysis in to a car journey to Sainsburys compared to say a trip from Kuwait City to Basra by road ...

And it is my confirmed belief that we are not so far away from seeing the conflict in Syria escalate significantly along with the possibility of tac-nuke use .....if EMP had a negative effect on air traffic from 100's of miles away, I would want to avoid being in the areas of threat, much as I wouldn't be too chuffed at being flown over Eastern Ukraine around the time of the SAM threat....

[rmac]

@ tourist

I also believe that the Russians have calculated, from evaluating our previous responses to their actions, that they could get away with a low yield tac-nuke strike in an emergency and the international community will still find a way to rationalise it in order to avoid having to take any action on our side. Things are getting very dangerous and what was once unthinkable.......

[Tourist]

rmac

Ok.

Once the confluence of events comes to pass that the Russians set off a nuclear device at the same moment that you happen to be passing in a non shielded airliner, then please feel free to come on here and say "I told you so".

Until then I'm afraid I'm going to mock you gently and enquire as to which brand of tinfoil you use for your hat making......;)

[rmac]

@tourist

Not the same thickness of tinfoil as my HK Chinese colleagues that just cancelled a trip tp Seoul while K-J-I was threatening to play with his toys ... :-)

And I haven't written off the ME routes yet, but do bear it in mind to keep an eye on events in advance of flights .....something perhaps the pax of the BA747 which was the last in to Kuwait City before Saddam invaded maybe wished they had done ... ;)

[Tankertrashnav]

I live a main road in the country. Sitting reading quietly in my house at night I often wish I had a very small EMP generator. First you hear (or more accurately feel) the thump thump thump of the base from a car which is maybe a couple of hundred metres away. This gets louder and louder until the car passes (interesting demo of the Doppler affect) and then gradually fades. What it's like inside the car is anyone's guess, but I wouldnt give much for the driver's hearing in a few years time. One press of my EMP button and silence, apart from "WTF?" from the driver! I could also use it on motorbike electrics on summer Sunday afternoons when the local organ donors are having an organised ride, and take about 20 minutes for all several hundred of them to pass.

Rant over - I feel better now!

Sorry for the thread drift.

[Wageslave]

How does EMP stop the base of the car going thump thump? Does it flatten the road or pump the tyres up or sumpn? ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

Wageslave, it generates MV/m in the wiring that burns out diodes etc in the sound system, and the rest of the car electrics. In theory a diesel car will continue though I suspect with so much modern electronics the diesel would fail too.

[wanabee777]

I think he meant to write bass.

[Willard Whyte]

Wageslave, it generates MV/m in the wiring that burns out diodes etc in the sound system, and the rest of the car electrics. In theory a diesel car will continue though I suspect with so much modern electronics the diesel would fail too.

Most modern vehicles may be stopped, but unless one completely fries the electrics their ecus will simply reset and the engine may be restarted.

[Tankertrashnav]

I think he meant to write bass.

He did - spelling suffers when he is in rant mode ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

WW, except that EMP gives you a hard kill not a soft one.

Regarding rebooting the car computer, the new to me merc I had 10 years ago had an alarming set of warnings etc where I discovered the trick of switching off and then on again.

Of course best done while stationary. :p

[LowObservable]

West Coast - that line wasn't in any CHAMPS brief I ever heard. "Reportedly" covers a multitude of sins.

[ORAC]

Talking of shielding from EMP and EM warfare. If it works one way it should work the other...

2D and virtually weight and space free. Link the components using FDDI and the problem goes away.

Thinking sideways it would also be a godsend in satellites allowing use of COTS electronics instead of expensive hardened chips......

https://phys.org/news/2020-07-mxene-material-extraordinary-electromagnetic-shielding.html

A new MXene material shows extraordinary electromagnetic interference shielding ability

[Sevarg]

If Mobile phones can F++k up pax jet electrics I would say God help you with an EMP.

[NutLoose]

Your Tesla might not start when you reach the airport and if you are flying to the sandpit it might now be the glasspit.... :)


Until then I'm afraid I'm going to mock you gently and enquire as to which brand of tinfoil you use for your hat making......

It would be put to a better use wrapped around ones testes

[beardy]

If Mobile phones can F++k up pax jet electrics I would say God help you with an EMP.

The ban on cell phones in aircraft is to preserve the integrity of the cellular network on the ground. Simplyfying: the network can be confused by a signal of equal strength trying to handshake with several neighbouring cells at the same time. The system can be overwhelmed.

[tmmorris]

You can achieve the same result sometimes just by standing on a hill.

[beardy]

You can achieve the same result sometimes just by standing on a hill.

That's quite interesting