B737 engine fire, severe damage or separation

[Raptor71]

Hi guys,

Can someone tell me what would be the indication for and engine severe damage?

[Uplinker]

1) No engine rotation. Engine fire warning. Audible sounds of engine distress, smells, smoke/fumes. No oil (possibly).

2) As far as your second question, I do not fly Boeing, but EFATO on Airbus :

a) keep straight with rudder

b) rotate and ensure you are climbing

c) on positive climb call gear up

d) trim rudder then use automatics if available - ensure safe flight path - check emergency turn

e) at +400' AGL: check gear up

f) ask PM what happened. Agree diagnosis with PM

g) take the radios and ask PM to perform initial ECAM actions to secure engine

h) perform emergency turn if required

i) talk to ATC: tell them what is happening and where you are going

j) at appropriate safe altitude level off and clean up

k) after take-off checks

l) (hold if required) work through ECAM and DODAR


That is the bare bones of it, and a couple of things won't necessarily be in that strict order.

[B737900er]

Hi guys,

Can someone tell me what would be the indication for and engine severe damage?

Besides in the event of JUST an engine failure at T/O, how would you proceed?

Normal T/O until FLAPS UP, the After T/O C/L and then Engine failure C/L and the one engine inop landing C/L?

Thanks


Firstly you would carry out memory items followed by Engine fire, severe damage, separation C/L then After TO C/L.

The indications you would get vary depending on the cause of the problem.
For example Engine seizer is classed as severe damage and you will get no N1 or N2 rotation.

Fire, Severe damage, Separation situations have very similar indications hence why the checklist is grouped.

[lomapaseo]

I recall addressing this same question many years ago from a technical standpoint.

The short answer is that it is a description of a simulator training aide. It's purpose being to simulate symptoms, with available cues, sound feel, instruments and learned responses according to an FCOM etc.

[Uplinker]

Easy there, Uplinker, I got banned for saying that to somebody.

Sorry to Raptor: that was not meant to be a dig. Removed now

[TypeIV]

Usually no N1 or N2 rotation with or without vibrations would be good reasons for assuming severe damage.

If it "only" is an engine failure, you wouldn't typically use the memory items.

Engine severe damage, separation, fire NNC and Engine failure NNC are separate checklists. With a severe damage or fire, you wouldn't attempt a restart whereas a flameout situation could be followed by a restart attempt if deemed appropriate.

[RAT 5]

Raptor: please, no disrespect, but, before I give you a full detailed response to answer your question, will you tell me your experience & who you work for: knowing that I can tailor my explanation accordingly.

[LlamaFarmer]

what would be the indication for engine severe damage?

General signs that suggest severe damage may have occurred:

- Very sudden loss of thrust (i.e. instant, rather than spooling down)
- A loud bang, or multiple loud bangs
- No rotation of either N1 or N2 stages
- Loss of engine indications
- High vibration levels, either indicated or physically felt/heard
- Multiple (unexpected) systems failures (i.e. other than eng-driven generator or eng-driven hydraulic pump)


This is not a full list. And not all of these necessarily mean damage... for example a bang could be a turbine blade going, or it could be surging. But if you have any of these conditions, you ought to consider you may have severe damage. You have to use your crew judgement.

Fire/Severe Damage/Separation is a more urgent situation than "just" an Engine Failure, so it could be better to err on the side of caution and treat it as a Severe Damage rather than not.



Besides in the event of JUST an engine failure at T/O, how would you proceed?

Normal T/O until FLAPS UP, the After T/O C/L and then Engine failure C/L and the one engine inop landing C/L?


Before going to the one engine out landing checklist you would want to stop, think, discuss, decide.

Depending on the operator, each will have a decision-making process (DODAR, T-DODAR, PIOSEE, GRADE are some of the ones used by the likes of BA, Ryanair, Easyjet etc) they are all the same essentially, just different words for the same thing.

If the engine is secure and you have no fuel leak or fire then there is no particularly urgent need to land asap. It is better to take your time and make sure everything is done properly rather than rush things.
Whilst it is not an ideal situation, and far from normal, flying with one engine shut down is not particularly concerning. ETOPS aircraft these days are rated to fly very far from land for many hours on a single engine. I'm an Airbus man, not a Boeing, but an engine failure on the 'Bus isn't a particularly big deal as far as affecting other systems goes. You retain all your flight controls, remain in Normal law with all your usual high speed/low speed/pitch/roll protections, you have the PTU so both engine-driven hydraulic systems remain powered, it's really not the big deal people might think.

So you can happily go into a hold and run through your QRH and decision making processes. Maybe you let your company know the situation (and at captains discretion, based on the situation at the time, perhaps even let Ops have some input in the decision making if appropriate*)

In a very urgent situation, you go with the first acceptable decision. But where you have time, it is better to go with the most appropriate option.




* Regarding letting Company Ops make decisions in non-normal/abnormal/emergency situations...
I am happy for the company to tell me where to go in the event of something like a weather diversion, if F-Plan Alt is B, but fuel is sufficient to go to airfields C, D or return to A, I'm happy letting them make that call, it is an operational decision after all, not a flight safety one.
If I have a failure and systems are downgraded but the aircraft is safe and secure, I am over the midlands at FL260 with many airports available, then I am happy for company to say "it's 20 minutes further, but we'd rather you diverted to Y instead of Z because we've got engineering cover and a spare aircraft there", and I would discuss that on the flight deck and as always it's the captains decision.
If I've had an engine fire that took two bottles to extinguish then I don't care if they have a nice hot dinner and a nice cosy bed waiting for me, I'm not letting the company make that call for me, I'm going where I want and the only people making that decision are me and the person sat next to me.

[Raptor71]

Hi Guys....

[issues]

Engine Flameout:

You'll see ENG FAIL in the EGT box. There will be N1 and N2 rotation. FF, OIL PRESS, OIL TEMP and QTY will have some figures in it.

This doesn't require any memory action. (Key is to look at N1 and N2 rotation)

EEC Fault:

Again EGT box will read ENG FAIL, there will be N1 and N2 rotation or a value in the box.

All other values will be BLANK.

SEVERE DAMAGE :

You'll see ENG FAIL again, key is to look at N1 - THERE WILL BE NO N1 rotation.

N2 will still be rotating, all other boxes will have some value.

Memory actions initiated at 400'

Separation:

You'll see ENG FAIL in the EGT Box.

N1 and N2 will read 0.0 and all other indications will be BLANK.

Again initiate memory actions at 400'. Aircraft will be a tad bit more difficult to handle as compared to normal engine failure.

Now with SEPARATION: ENG1 - Degraded HYD A and ENG2 - LOSS OF HYD B.

I have a diagram of this explanation. Was unable to post it here. Best of luck with your TR.

Oh and I forgot to add further to your question:

ENG FAIL AT V1: PM calls ENG FAIL, PF calls CONTINUE, PM calls Rotate, Positive rate, PF asks for gear UP.

400' - HDG SEL - BANK ANGLE 15 degrees - IDENTIFY - INITATE MEMORY ACTIONS

Declare MAYDAY if time permits between 400' - 800'

800' - Fup SPD, retract flaps on schedule, FLAPS up, LVL CHG and select MCT (Max Cont Thrust) from the FMC.

DODAR!

Go to your EOP (Engine out point) or take off alternate and do the checklist for the non-normal condition followed by after t/o procedure and checklist.

Do a NITS briefing with your cabin supervisor. Nature/ Intentions/ Time/ Special requirements.

Decide where you're going and continue with DEFERRED Items checklists.

Thats all that I can think of. Hope I covered everything.

[nick14]

Issues:

Be very careful about definitive black and white answers.

Your statement about Severe damage is not totally correct. With severe damage you may have N1 rotation but equally you may not. You may also have no N2 rotation.

The conditions people see in the sim do not represent all situations you could be faced with and sometimes they can also not represent real world symptoms, you have to use good technical UNDERSTANDING and problem assessment skills to identify the malfunction.

[lomapaseo]

The conditions people see in the sim do not represent all situations you could be faced with and sometimes they can also not represent real world symptoms, you have to use good technical UNDERSTANDING and problem assessment skills to identify the malfunction.

Agree

They serve for training purposes to cover a responses for a single engine failure condition. They have contributed to safety overall even though they may not have been perfectly matched to what the engine is actually doing.

[Pin Head]

Boeing changed the advice in the last few years I think. You need to read the QRH wording very very carefully.

You need also Airframe vibration as well to class it as severe damage.

If you don't have airframe vibration then complete the Engine Limit, Surge or Stall. That could then move onto a shutdown if the problem persists.

Always a good sim bonus point to ask if we have airframe vibration to the examiner.

[nick14]

Does the sim not give you airframe vibration?

If the engine has seized you won't get any vibration so I wouldn't have said its a necessecity.

[LlamaFarmer]

Does the sim not give you airframe vibration?

If the engine has seized you won't get any vibration so I wouldn't have said its a necessecity.

Not if it's a fixed base, or the motion is off.
Which is not uncommon for part of the type rating.

And agree, vibration does not always mean severe damage. And lack of vibration does not mean there isn't severe damage.

[lomapaseo]

If the engine has seized you won't get any vibration so I wouldn't have said its a necessecity.

the seized part is a misnomer. Rotors not turning are extremely rare with ram air driving them. The zero RPM monitor on the gauge is typically because the pick up is screwed up by something.

At any rate in real life if you get lots of vibration at the same time as the instruments start hoping you probably have trashed an engine and the worry about fuel leakage eventually happening drives the training concern and the actions taught.

[issues]

Issues:

Be very careful about definitive black and white answers.

Your statement about Severe damage is not totally correct. With severe damage you may have N1 rotation but equally you may not. You may also have no N2 rotation.

The conditions people see in the sim do not represent all situations you could be faced with and sometimes they can also not represent real world symptoms, you have to use good technical UNDERSTANDING and problem assessment skills to identify the malfunction.

I agree with you. I forgot to mention that this was from a SIM point of view only - not real world.

Since, Raptor71 is in training for his TR, I thought its best to stick to the SIM POV. Furthermore I am sure more experienced gentlemen like yourself can lay more light on the subject.

Good day.

[nick14]

We have spoken to CFM regarding a sudden seizure and they say it is possible and has happened in the past (although rare).

What I get frustrated with is this idea that the sim is different to the real world and "I did that because it's the sim". What people need to understand is that when we train we are trying to build competence, knowledge and understanding. This means that the limitations of the sim should be briefed and understood and the techniques used in training are taken forward into line operations. Giving someone advice "for the sim" is not always the best advice.