Emirates. Not that bad, surely?

[BigGeordie]

I have recently been asked via Private Message if EK is really as bad as it is painted on these pages. Surely people exaggerate or even make things up for their own nefarious ends? It can't be possible for a major international airline- and wannabe major international brand- to behave in such an uncaring and cavalier fashion towards its employees. Can it?

Well, I have plenty of time to write a reply at the moment as I'm on a flight back to Dubai from my home country. I had six days off in a row, which is a reasonably rare event but not unheard of, so I went home for four days. I got downgraded to economy on the way out, despite having a waitlisted ID50 for business class. On the way back there was only one flight in two days where I was fairly confident I would get on at all and this is a destination with three flights per day. This is in late February, not school or public holiday time. Here is the first lesson- do not think it is easy to use staff travel when you do get days off especially with low seniority. Flights are very often full and, especially travelling with a family, it will be a stressful experience. It also starts to get expensive very quickly. Even ID90s are far from free.

More observant readers will have noticed that, although I had six days off, I only went home for four. This is because after my days off I am rostered for an ultra long haul flight and the company demands that I be back in Dubai for three full nights before such a duty. It is very common to have such flights rostered after a block of days off and it can often completely prevent travel. It is worth mentioning that the majority of pilots I have spoken too believe that the company's interpretation of the flight time limitations is not correct and there is no legal need to be in Dubai so early. However, only the company's interpretation matters and it is not negotiable. This is lesson two- having days off does not mean you are free of the demands of the company. It is also worth mentioning at this point that the company, being a government entity, does not have to follow any employment laws. Even in Dubai, where the employment laws tend to be biased in favour of employers, that is worth having a good think about but before you sign up.

My wife decided to stay at home for a couple of weeks. Or possibly months. As she pointed out, I am only actually in Dubai for 12 “useful” days in March. “Useful” means days when I have not just got back from a long flight at 6am and am either in bed or exhausted for the rest of the day. I am flying 100 hours in March and the last three months have all been between 95 and 105, with a similar number of days in Dubai. Not surprisingly my spouse is getting sick of effectively living on her own as I am often away for five or six days at a time. Everyone's marriage is different and I leave it up to you to speculate on the effect living like this is likely to have on yours. Lesson three. The job is a marriage wrecker. The irony is a lot of people bring their families to Dubai for a better life, then never see them. Or the wife gets sick of being a one parent family and goes back home. With your children. You will see them even less then- see lesson 1.

I actually did relatively well for leave this year and got some of what I wanted. However, I still have 7 days of “forced leave” allocated by the company at a time of year I certainly wouldn't have chosen. This 7 day block finishes only three weeks before a period of leave I actually asked for. I have no doubt, based on past experience, that I will be flying for 90 hours during the month when I have this week “off”. As that is almost a normal month's roster the leave is actually only the days off for the month compressed together. Lesson four and five- you don't choose when your holiday is, the company does and it isn't really holiday at all as you still do the same amount of work that month. Working here, you are tired and jet lagged. Constantly.

When I joined Emirates, just over a decade ago, I left a secure job at a reputable European airline. Indeed, I was just coming up for my wide body command there. Nobody I spoke to at the time, either inside or outside Emirates, thought it was a bad idea. This was one of the best jobs to have in aviation in terms of both lifestyle and salary. Indeed some people in my previous company were positively envious. Now, I doubt any pilot inside Emirates would give an unqualified yes to the question, “Should I apply?”

The sixth and final (for now) lesson. If you join today the terms and conditions you experience will be the best you will get for your time here. In ten plus years I can't think of anything I could honestly say has improved. Other posts have mentioned the rampant inflation (and, coming soon, VAT- for an instant 5% pay cut) and the difficulty of saving on an F/O salary.

So there you go. No, we aren't making it up. Almost all of the posts are true and when somebody does post something that is completely wrong somebody else will correct it pretty quickly. After all this is the internet!

[bittersweetheart]

Seconded.

While I did still enjoy the flying and colleagues in EK, I just couldnt stand the workload and irregular pattern any more.

As several have said before, the money as a Captain is still pretty good, questionable however if it is worth your health and family life. And as an FO, forget about saving if you come to Dubai with kids. Single guy or girl is different.

A month later and I am slowly regaining a normal circadian rythm. I cannot describe the feeling of being able to go to bed more or less the same time every night. And waking up in the morning actually feeling refreshed.

For anyone claiming 'It cant be that bad; in XXX Airline we fly 6 sectors per day and fly 90+ hour months. Just remember that most of us that fly or flew EK also flew for XXX Airline previously. The jetlag and irregular pattern combination has to be experienced before you can truly appreciate the longterm effects.

Still, EK may work for some. It didnt work for us any longer though.

[falconeasydriver]

What Big G x 10.
The reality is not any different to the posts as you see them, yes I am sure there is a version of events that differs from another perspective, but thats interpretation rather than reality.
I had occasion to be back in Dubai a week or two back and managed to have a chat with a few of my ex EK colleagues, they were in unison, without prompting I add, ALL working on their exit plans. All spoke at length about the issues that have gone around and around on this board, one friend in particular has had a recent issue where he was falsely accused of a minor breach by a junior member of staff, this breach he was accused of occurred on a flight he didn't operate, and nor was he actually working that day, nor has he worked with the accuser and yet he is now in possession of a warning letter that effectively removes all chance for receiving any profit share if granted and he has NO recourse.
I left over 6 months ago, I renewed my medical the other day, BP normal (at EK I was considered hypertensive), 6kg lighter and fitter, and I've never felt better.
Think EK won't shorten your life? dream on if you don't.

[jatqual]

!00% true from all 3 above. Off = recovery, if lucky. It's no life and the cash is well short to compensate such an existence.

[Versace]

Every EK Pilot would agree with Big Geordie 100% on the money. I don't know any pilot that can see themselves staying within the next 1-3 years of the company.

Says it all. :ok:

[what_goes_up]

Every EK Pilot would agree with Big Geordie 100% on the money. I don't know any pilot that can see themselves staying within the next 1-3 years of the company.
It seems we haven't met then. Speak for yourself and not for all....

[VLS with ice]

:ok:
They should introduce a like button!

[BYMONEK]

falconeasydriver

Without wishing to drift off subject, your 'friend' with the warning. Obviously this is his side of the story but in any event, profit share is only blocked if on a final warning, not a written one. If he did indeed have a final warning, then he also has the right to appeal.

Doesn't seem to add up to me.

[falconeasydriver]

BYMONEK,

I'm no Barack room lawyer these days, nor am I sufficiently familiar with the HR policies or terminology at EK anymore. I can tell you I read the letter, I reviewed the dates mentioned and then reviewed his roster for that month, the text contained within clearly stated the removal of any type of bonus or profit share.
In respect of his version vs the company/accuser version of events the letter contained both factual errors and referred to events in a fashion with what would best be described as heresay in any normal context. My friend had absolutely nothing to gain or any axe to grind before this mess landed in his lap. Suffice to say he has saved himself a great amount of stress and frustration and accepted his fate, he accepted it for around 10 days, then, the day after our little reunion, he resigned.

[motley flight crue]

That's why the company run all over us. Pussy captains not standing up for themselves. A real pity.

[Ghost_Rider737]

Motley flight crue :

I'm not an EK employee nor do I work for any Middle Eastern Carrier and nor am I an expat.

Once you are a Captain , in any company for that matter , you have very little "weight" outside the Flight Deck. Maybe in the queue at your company coffee shop but that's about it.

You can't expect an expat , Captain or not , to "fight" contractual issues.

In the Middle East you are an expat first , then a captain or FO.

No one in management gives a flying $&!? ......If you join any company as an Expat you got to "take it lying down".

[in freedom]

The problem with these incredible stories is that there is absolutely no legal relief under the UAE feudal system. There is not even a concept that the government (your boss) could ever be wrong. Hence when it happens it all goes to hell very quickly. Don't think that it only happens to others.

[Twiglet1]

Big G
3 local nights before = Only EK have picked up on this for sure. By all means but treat fatigue seriously and do your part EK. Treat pilots with respect and they will turn up well rested. I would only mention then the commercial risk of coming in the day before. On standby and you don't get on time to splash cash for a full fare.

Leave = more difficult I'm afraid you can't expect time off when yoiu expect it all the time.
Ifyou want it when you want go work in the office will be the answer sorry

[falconeasydriver]

Motley, nothing like a keyboard warrior such as yourself to pass judgement without the benefit of intelligence nor compassion, you sir are reprehensible. I'm sure in your version of utopia there is nothing you can't accomplish

[Versace]

What_goes_up -

You must be a Middle Easterner... Say no more...

[BusyB]

Sounds just like Cathay except there the housing and pay are also sh*t.:sad:

[Talparc]

Gulf Air 2.0

What can you expect from the 3rd floor Muppets?

[motley flight crue]

Falcon, I did have a situation, was wrongly punished, and refused the outcome until I got to see AS. Guess what, it was overturned! If your right, conduct yourself properly and state your case then things can change.

[what_goes_up]

@Versace
Central European coming from a major there...
Over 10 years in EK and still wouldn't go back.
It's not that nothing is wrong here... But it's not as bad as portrayed.
But even if I was from the Middle East I would be part of the "every EK pilot community" you elected to represent in your post.

[birdieonfirst]

I second that comment!
Look for the bad and guess what; you'll find it...
Enjoy the good and guess what; you're happy...
It's all up to you guys. Be negative, or be positive. I choose the latter and I'm enjoying myself.

😎 BOF

[fatbus]

Upgrades are taking longer and longer. some pilots are now realizing , more so on the 777, that they need attrition in order to upgrade. Hence the sky is falling on Pprune.
Last month 70k in the bank , company housing, OT, TRI pay, 13 days off. Close to 15 years , exit plan not because of EK or Dubai but because the money bucket almost full.

[Rather Be Skiing]

Making up problems to, hopefully, accelerate the upgrade seems a stretch, Fatbus.

Guys complaining because their upgrade is taking longer than they would like has zero impact on my stay/go mindset. Maybe that is just me, though.

Certainly doesn't explain the FOs leaving. Especially the ones that are in the upgrade window now.

Knowing you're leaving and your financial future is secure must make these issues less serious to you. If one is considering their longer term career, however, they take on more significance.

[BigGeordie]

I'm not going looking for the bad, it comes to find me. There are still some positives about the job- the people I fly with are generally great and I manage to save a bit of money every month. After over a decade here I would damn well hope I would!

My money bucket is nowhere near full yet and I fully accept that the days of coming to the Land of Sand for 10 years and then retiring were over about 40 years ago. I have looked at jobs back in Europe and, for me, they didn't work. Hence I'm staying at Emirates a bit longer. This doesn't mean I don't want to be out as quickly as possible it just means that I'm approaching an age (and a seniority) where it is better for me to stay than to go. Would I come now, if I was in the same position I was when I first joined? No chance. Ten years ago I recommended Emirates to people in my old company. No way I would do that now.

To those who are still saying you have to look at the positives and it isn't that bad, not really, I would say: I don't know how long you have been here but tell me what about the job has improved in the time you have worked for Emirates? Because in 10 years just about everything I can think of, from leave to staff travel to inflation adjusted salary has deteriorated. Birdie on first and what goes up, I'm talking to you.

[donpizmeov]

There are the aqueducts?

[BigGeordie]

Well, yes, obviously. And sanitation, roads, irrigation, medicine, education, wine and public order. But apart from that...

Actually there are certain similarities to the way the Holy Roman Empire ran things (they thought they ruled by Divine Right. Until suddenly they didn't) and Emirates...

To the youngsters who have no idea what we are on about, well, you just have no culture. Sorry.

[what_goes_up]

BigG
I don't disagree with you. A lot of things are not the same as they used to be. But such is the industry... Aviation is not the same it used to be 15 years ago.
If I compare what I have here to what I could get if I did the move, this is still the best option... That is true for myself and my family.
If one doesn't like it and has options.. Move on. If no other options, put up with it and don't make your life bitter (and others... :-) )

[Laker]

Fatbus,

Do you consider 13 days off to be a positive or a negative? In the aviation world I grew up with a wide body pilot would expect at least 18 off in a month. 70k tax free is good but you are working your tail off to achieve that number. Doesn't Ryan Air give you at least 13 days off without having to cross up to 12 time zones? Are Ryan Air rosters the new gold standard? :yuk:

[BigGeordie]

It is the best option at the moment, out of a pretty bad bunch, for me and my family as well- which is why I'm still here. However, I've already been here a long time so my situation is different to a 20-something who is just starting off a 25 year stint.

You said in your post, "It's not as bad as portrayed". So perhaps I should rephrase my question to, "Which parts of the portrayal on this board are inaccurate?" After all, that is the question which kicked off the whole thread and I think it deserves an answer. I've said, and backed up with personal experience, that it is pretty much as it is described.

I really think that it is important to get a balanced response because I'm a bit fed up flying with F/Os who are thoroughly disillusioned after only a year or two in the company. They joined thinking Pprune was a gross exaggeration from a few bitter and twisted individuals who wouldn't be happy anywhere. Then they discovered, the hard way and much too late, that what is written here is pretty accurate.

[CamelRustler]

BOF is a 380 captain and completely oblivious as to the suffering of his colleges. He is in a seat that virtually no new hire will ever be in. He enjoys 50-100% more days off then my fleet with the added bonus of 7.000 aed more than us. For him life is GREAT!!. The rest of us should shut up, as we are cramping his vibe.

[Panther 88]

What_goes_up,
Disagree with you. The industry as a whole has improved dramatically as compared to 15 years ago. Remember what happened to decimate the industry almost 15 years ago, look at the profits most well run airlines are experiencing and look at the employment opportunities compared to 15 years ago. EK seems to be the exception, not the rule. As the landscape improves for airlines, most are returning their major investment (employees) to a level not seen in decades. Not there yet but getting there.....except EK. Retirements of pilots and the price of fuel is "fueling" a robust return of T&Cs at many major worldwide airlines for pilots. Why is EK different? Ask yourself that.

WGU, can you name three things that have improved at EK for its flight crew, with regards to T&Cs, over the last decade. Anything? Loss of buying power, loss of annual leave, restriction of days off in a row, 25% increase in flying hours to over 100 hours per month for many, forced moves from long term accommodations, school fees not covering the cost of education, productivity hours threshold increased....do I need to go on. Well, there has been increase in the utilities allowance (there I named one for you). And not even mentioning the basics, just what has been lost over the last decade. Why aren't these loses being restored as other major airlines are doing? So if T&Cs continue to be deteriorated during these good times, what's to prevent more to be taken from us? There is nothing that will or could prevent that from continuing. Operations keep chugging along and new joiners continue to show up.

So Big G, all you say is spot on. Those reading these pages have to take this to heart. Perhaps if one's airline is in the "toilet", EK could be an improvement to one's career. Good luck.

[what_goes_up]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:Disagree with you. The industry as a whole has improved dramatically as compared to 15 years ago. Remember what happened to decimate the industry almost 15 years ago, look at the profits most well run airlines are experiencing and look at the employment opportunities compared to 15 years ago. EK seems to be the exception, not the rule. As the landscape improves for airlines, most are returning their major investment (employees) to a level not seen in decades. Not there yet but getting there.....except EK.
Then you must ask yourself, why are you still here, if there are so many better options out there.
All I was referring to, was that just because some individuals hate it here, it is not necessarily true for all of us. Some like it here for whatever (for you and the likes) obscure reason. All I know is that if I hated the place that much, I would not be here anymore but found some better QOL (maybe for the price of less money...). Done that before and would do it again.
Out of this discussion as I am not here to change anyone's opinion.

[fatbus]

13 days off plus 2 rest days plus 2 midnight arrivals . Also just because it's a wide body does not mean it's a long haul operation. Yes some airlines still have @18 days off flying wide body long haul, not denying that. Can't compare Delta 777 to EK. Compare EK to CX or SQ or CZ or KE to get an idea of which is better or not.

[SnowPilot]

thank you for the posts. From both sides....

I see it less as pilot bitching more of here is how my life has changed and examples given.

I know there are a ton of more pilots reading this thread that haven't commented but keep clicking "refresh"

[Panther 88]

WGU,
I am still here for various reasons which precludes most of the options I talked about. Not bitter at all and enjoying my time here, knowing it will not be a career here. But you stated the industry has gone downhill for the last 15 years. I'm disagreeing because for the last few years it is climbing and climbing healthy. And many of the flight crew ARE reaping the benefits of this recovery. Meanwhile, EK continues to take. You cannot deny that. Abused wives stay with their abusers for many reasons. Doesn't mean they're not abused. And perhaps for many, this is a better option than their present situation. Just be prepared for nothing more positive with regard to T&Cs.

But still waiting for three things that have improved with regard to T&Cs for the entire pilot group, in the last decade.

[Aluminium shuffler]

What_goes_up,
Disagree with you. The industry as a whole has improved dramatically as compared to 15 years ago. Remember what happened to decimate the industry almost 15 years ago, look at the profits most well run airlines are experiencing and look at the employment opportunities compared to 15 years ago...As the landscape improves for airlines, most are returning their major investment (employees) to a level not seen in decades. Not there yet but getting there.....except


With only a couple of exceptions of low paid companies now trying to compete with locos for staff, that simply isn't true. I wish it was, though.

[BigGeordie]

With respect to the last couple of posters, you are missing the point of this thread. We know terms and conditions are flexible at Emirates and changes are always in favour of the company. We also know that, generally, the industry has been going downhill for the last 10 years.

I started this thread because somebody asked me if things were really as bad as people on Pprune say they are. So far, nobody has been able to point to any glaring inaccuracies in any of the posts about Emirates. There are worse (and better) airlines out there, there always will be. For any potential joiners though I think the overriding lesson is to read the posts on the numerous EK threads very carefully. Because they are almost all accurate. Then make your own decision but don't sit next to me in 2 or 3 years (I'll probably still be here, trying to save enough to leave) complaining that it is worse than you thought it would be.

[Exiled Martian]

Greetings Desert Dwellers,

Firstly apologies for resurrecting an old thread but I didn't feel like creating a new one as I thought this one would be perfectly adequate to get my questions across. I must admit that this particular thread among-st the many other surprisingly abundant 'EK is not OK' types I've been binging on has really jaded my mind set as to whether coming over to the pit would 'really' prove worthwhile.....Can someone please provide me some updated info on advancement within the company? Is it based on seniority, merit, something else? I'm coming from a 2300+ total hours with about 2000 on the 738 background, in a company/situation that I have grown tired of and fed up with, the way I see it it simply can't get worse than where I am. My expectation would be to get some wide body experience and then maybe an upgrade ~5-6 years thereafter? Please feel free to rain on my parade or correct my Utopian expectations accordingly.

Just a bit of background info; In my late twenties, due to get married very soon. Currently an SFO at an Irish LOCO and I'm seriously considering the long haul opportunity the likes of EK/QR are offering with a goal/mindset/game plan to come to the desert do my time of a decade or so worth of graft and come back to Blighty hoping to be mortgage free with some respectable savings amassed in the process. For the record I'm not one of those self absorbed blingy flashy social media lothario types. Me and my wife to be are simply seeking to make the most of what we got whilst were young and able really. So I'm under no illusion of becoming a pilot gazzilionaire down there. Just sick and tired of slogging it in the LOCO world that's all...anyways meaningless rant over :O

I've always had a good impression on the aforementioned carriers, that is until I resorted to some heavy Googling of late which has left me a little bewildered or just in denial about the conditions over there, then I think to myself it surely can't get any worse then where I am; on a zero hour contract,no free H20, perkless on all accounts. What other credible outfit actually charges their own for RSTs/LPC/OPC. To top it off the recent absurd remarks spouted by the head harpist in the media makes you sick to the stomach, absolute defamation of the profession and its resolute workforce SMH. Anyways, I really don't have any viable contacts to consult with over there....hence why I'm making a plea on here really, Sigh, I've really got some big decisions ahead of me and frankly any advise/suggestions/guidance on the matter would be immensely appreciated either on here or via PM

Thank you for your time & have a Good evening folks!

EM

[Talparc]

"I see it simply can't get worse"

Sorry, to destroy your view it is getting worse every day!

EK is following the Ryanair model, so better stay where you are.

[ruserious]

Putting opinions aside, you will need at least 6000hrs and be over 35 to get command here. You will also need to be lucky and play the game as you simply have no rights.

[yardman]

If you end up on the 777, you have to be 32 to get a command. The Whale is more special so you have to be 35 to be anointed.

[harry the cod]

Why not apply anyway, do the interview and bring your fiancé here for a few days. If she doesn't like it, don't come. Try though to at least speak with a few already here, some single, married, kids etc then, if you're offered the job, decide from there.

Despite what Talparc says, the vast majority of ex Ryanair guys and girls stay. You'll work hard but in a different way to loco short haul. Dubai isn't for everyone but it suits many. Huge variation in destinations and duration of flights with generally good bunch of people. There is a lot of negativity on these forums, some frustrations and advice of which is justified. However, the majority of pilots are generally content. Not super enthusiastic or highly motivated, but content. Get away from PPRune, enjoy a social life away from flying, embrace opportunities and activities unrelated to EK and you can have a good life.

It's all about what you make of it and your long term goals. 10 years is not an unrealistic time frame to start with. Good luck!

Harry

[zero/zero]

I’m considering a similar move, but from a cargo operator.

I think it’s just the sad state of our industry that conditions are changing (degrading) in response to the market. Without the protection of unions, EK is probably changing quicker than other big players, except maybe the US, but everyone is heading in that general direction. Have a bunch of UK based friends at BA and Virgin who aren’t exactly deliriously happy atm.

I regard it as a personal decision based on your own attitude to some of the undoubted challenges, and arguably most importantly how you judge your fiancé/family are able to cope with these challenges for the next 5+ years. I’m ME based currently and have no doubts that the expat lifestyle doesn’t suit everyone.

Good luck if you decide to apply

[Emma Royds]

My expectation would be to get some wide body experience and then maybe an upgrade ~5-6 years thereafter? Please feel free to rain on my parade or correct my Utopian expectations accordingly.

Bear in mind that time to command on the 777 at least, is already close to six years at present but it is shorter on the 380. Those joining now can expect a longer wait!

[fatbus]

Longer upgrades times could shorten due to attrition, many pilots are simply fed up and just leaving with no jobs to go to.

[sealear]

EK and Dubai is what you make of it. So if you decide to go and live in the company villa, surrounded by your bitter colleagues 24/7, read PPRuNe all day and then whinge about it in the flight deck, wife on facebook club etc, then YES you are going to be miserable here. Or... you distance yourself from all of that, live somewhere nice (not in EK accommodation), make the most of what Dubai has to offer, have a good set of friends who have similar aspirations to yourself etc, go to work, have a good time, go home and leave it at that.... then you will enjoy it here.

[desertbob]

Burying your head in the sand doesn't change the 100% inflation or new sin tax as they call it, or the fact we haven't had a payrise in the last 6 years. Nor does it change the near catastrophic events happening on a monthly rate now. The root cause is mickey mouse treatment intent on diminishing the pilot group from every direction. Middle management only shrug their shoulders and collect their fat little paycheck. Have you called sick and lost a day off yet? How about a shared rest day between night flights? Taken leave and worked the same monthly hours?

Experience levels on the line have fallen off a cliff, don't want to detail the 1km flare, descending in a block climb, near stall speeds with VS climbs or the unstable alerts ... all in one month! Go ahead and pat yourself on the back while all the experienced guys rush for the door so you can get command earlier :eek: I wouldn't climb in a taxi with a guy driving 14 hours, would you?! I know, lets demote training to a pay to play game! :eek: Its becoming a freak show, I'm afraid to watch the news ...

[Talparc]

Burying your head in the sand doesn't change the 100% inflation or new sin tax as they call it, or the fact we haven't had a payrise in the last 6 years. Nor does it change the near catastrophic events happening on a monthly rate now. The root cause is mickey mouse treatment intent on diminishing the pilot group from every direction. Middle management only shrug their shoulders and collect their fat little paycheck. Have you called sick and lost a day off yet? How about a shared rest day between night flights? Taken leave and worked the same monthly hours?

Experience levels on the line have fallen off a cliff, don't want to detail the 1km flare, descending in a block climb, near stall speeds with VS climbs or the unstable alerts ... all in one month! Go ahead and pat yourself on the back while all the experienced guys rush for the door so you can get command earlier :eek: I wouldn't climb in a taxi with a guy driving 14 hours, would you?! I know, lets demote training to a pay to play game! :eek: Its becoming a freak show, I'm afraid to watch the news ...

excellent post desertbob, spot on

[ruserious]

Yep, I feel your pain Bob, see variations of that on a weekly basis. Yes there are still some great relatively inexperienced operators, but they are the minority. That simply never used to be the case

[CaptainOldSchool]

Been holding my tongue here for too long but feel like I am going to explode. So I wanted to warn young new players away from looking at EK as a career choice.

What I wanted to warn people of is the complete miss alignment between the headline sales pitch that is put to you and the reality of the job in terms of what to expect for coverage of Education, Medical and Accomodation.

There are definitions and exclusion, there are the fine details etc and sure you can be reasonably expected to read and expect them to be complied with.

What is not on the sales broacher is the fact that things can change at a moments notice away form the terms you signed up for under your contract, and there is not thing 1 you can do about it.

In the last 12 months, there have been several signification changes for example.

1. Commands are now limited by age. So if you joined young looking for a command after the generally discussed experience levels. Forget it... they just moved the goal posts and you are screwed.

2. They capped the medical claim per consultation. So a general consultation is capped with complete disregard to the time and expertise involved in the consultation. So for example a 5 minute GP consultation has the same cap as a 60 minute session with a Psychiatrist. Never mind that one session takes 5 minuets and one takes 60 and is specialised. If they are not applying medical services on top of the procedure, then the service is capped at a rate that covers nothing. Crazy... but means that you can be out of pocket for huge bucks if you are unlucky enough to require consultations about the low cap.


3. The ability to opt out of the accomodation scheme now means that if you have any commitment to the region you will also not have the ability to define the living conditions you experience. Not living in company accomodation or at least having the flexibility to chose is no longer an option. This is very signification if you have plans to live outside the hive.

4. Cost of living in DXB. Super hard to anticipate before you arrive, but without putting too finer point on it... EVERYTHING costs WAY more than you could expect. From processing fees for government services, groceries, access to services of any professional nature, not to mention the things that are not covered by Education, Medical, and Allowance that you expected would be covered. EVERYTHING cost more and is going up at amazing rates... super hard to anticipate just how out of pocket you will be.

5. Professionally. Not going to say a lot here, but lets just say that the culture of fear that infests the place is taking a serious toll on all those involved. There is a tremendous amount of potential for this place to be a great place to work. Currently it is far from this...

[WB1900]

hi AIMINGHIGH123

I like to try to answer your question and i guess the answer that poeple shop at waitrose instead of carefour might not the answer. as well i dont want to drive u away or invite u to join the club. rather i try to show u my montly reality and i hope those people who want to play it negative can sit on there hands for a moment or what i really would appreciate is to contribute or correct my number so that we get a little heads up on the reality done here.
It is difficult to say what the personal needs are, for e.g. i spend a lot in the internet costs may be more than others would ever do, but i tried to give u ranges of prices.

i have added up some numbers:

My household is 2 Adults + 1 Baby and 1 car
Prices in AED = €0,23 / numbers are given per month

Car insurance 166 – 250

No Road tax – but u have certain tollroads for e.g. sheik zyaed road which is the most used on – and yes u can avoidit but not always
4 AED per gate between Marina a airportthere are 4 = 16AED and per month on a daily basis 480 AED which reduces to areal number of approx. 150AED amonth

Fuel 400

Mobile Phone 200(reasonable data andvoice package) per person

Internet home and TV 250(8mbit) Dataonly – 700(100mbit plus medium TV)

IPTV to get your favourite channelsanother 25 (and then 8mbit is by far not enough)

Household insurance 20-50

Water ELEC min 5%of your rent average pay1100

Air condition 1500 – 3000 depending onthe size of your Flat/Villa

Medical additional insurance 400 perperson

Supermarket 2000 big monthly

Small daily 800

If u decide to move than I guarantee uwill have a loan

Car 100000 - payback time 48 month 2290 / Payback 60 month – 1870

U will have an additional loan to get settled for another 50000 personal loan

Max48 month 1180

In company accommodation u face min 7500– max 8900 (including the Loan)
Uwill not pay for A/C – ELEC upto 32000/Y in consumption (exceedance will be deducted)

Outside (u will receive an additional 14000 to your income as accom allowance)

min 7500+1500 AC +1100 ELEC =10100 ///// MAX 8900 + 3000 AC + 1500ELEC =13500

Plus the rent which ranges from 1 bedroom 60000/y to 3bed room 200000/y

Why u will have a loan for car and getting settled

Additional company accommodation or not if u get a baby, and considering that u will fairly often not at home and also your parants will not be around – your wife will be looking into getting some help at home

Cleaning maid 25/hr = avg 4h/week = avg16/month=== 400
Live in Maid 1000 – 2500 a month plus approx.10000 for her visa once plus 500-800/y for her medical insurance

Schooling fees so far I heard are good for an average school and I agree with most of them that is for shure not what u want for your kid so expect there a hugh top up per month. Most of the FOs I speak with that it is becoming tight from the moment u need nursery or school, given the fact that schooling only starts at the age of four, where your kid is already one year in the system.

Realty is that u have a cargo allowance which means your 400kg joining fly for free but aren’t handled for free. The Cargo company charges u around 1000€

If u have more cargo to avoid the costs to buy your furniture it goes to the roof (heard people spent upto 8000€)

The supermarket costs do not include the recent price increases for most of the goods by 50% neither does it for the 5%VAT which is coming 1st JAN. to say it again it does not matter at which Supermarkt u make your purchase, yes are big differences named by the price, but sometimes to get to next cheaper on is a long drive. Nevertheless buying "organic" or lots of fruits is going to be very pricey in the long run. we talk here about times 2 up to somewhere times 5 - thats real.

From your montly salary company deducts min 5% for your PF and all not covered or approved medical treatments – in case of hospitalisation there are deductibles but I cannot answer this question,there are other experts out here. Fact is these deductibles are not mentioned in the road shows.

I hope that others will contribute to this post as I like to give u real numbers, to what u will expect in matters of possible savings.

all the best for your deceison

[WB1900]

I like to thank airdancer,
as he says lives are very different here and it depends strongly on the livestyle u set.
i end up with 5000 -7000 a month and i have to say its not the car (its long paid of)
i my case a wife, a kid and the fact that both of us want the have a nice place to stay, sop yes we do up our house and invest a good part of my salary in the lifestyle here and now. But again it is depending on the individual and i strongly believe that airdancers number and mine give a good picture where u will be in terms of saving. and i save too not as much as airdancer, just for the given fact but i do and as a captain u will do easy a good saving per month.
Fact is also prices are increasing and more costs will be dragged down to us. As for now with as average lifestyle (we are not rich) u will build up money for later but the amount u can save will decrease over the time for a lot of factors. On the other hand thats not any different to any other place in the world as for now.


#AIMINGHIGH123

therefore moneywise the deceision is fairly easy, if u come make shure u both like it in the long term. I personaly sometimes like it, sometimes don't care and to be honest i hate it. Nothing unnatural it is not my home country where are a lot of things i miss which is more about what i can do with a limited time of, but is a different story and again very very individual.
my personal advice to u is to make shure u and especially your wife can live at a place where the laws are a very expandable and very much depending on your passport and origin are in interpretation. you have to make shure that u can accept a certain amount of unfairness, being not able to influence it, in the long run.

[maimax]

Ok let's be honest:

I live in company accommodation. So this is what I pay:

625 AED for internet/tv/tel from etisalat(This is the cheapest option with internet boost)

I shop once a month at carrefour and buy most of my stuff on offer. Roughly 800 AED per trip.

I eat out once a week or visit a cinema to keep the missus happy. Let's say around 500 AED.

We both have a phone bill which comes roughly at a 1000 AED for both. She has a simple one, I got the expensive one.

I have no maid, I don't hire cleaners.

I have a car but did not take a loan from EK. Very simple ford fiesta and pay 1625 per year so let's say 135 AED per month.

I don't drive it only that once a month as I'm situated very nicely close to the metro. Make it 200 AED per month for fuel which is very drastic.

My wife uses the metro a lot (gold card) but doesn't go over 200 AED per month.

Most of my shopping is done overseas with EK money. I do freighter a lot so that means we get nice allowances (zaragoza, hmmmmm).

I have never gone over my elec/ac usage. We have the AC on in all rooms 24/7 but do turn off the lights of course.

So that's 3525 per month spending on necessities. I put in my 5% each month meaning I end up with (80h per month) 28000 AED. Take 3500 away, 24500 AED.

Guess what. I send 20k home easily and keep around 2-5k AED in my bank for emergencies.

It's really not hard if you act like you were acting before coming to dubai. Unfortunately people take loans to buy big fancy cars, Do up the house or garden and take several maids. Yes I don't have kids and not planning to. I'm here to make money, not to build a family.

With a wife and a 6yo, we spend 1603aed on "necessities", so we save 51312aed and 12 fils every month . We live under the tree next to Airdancer's.

[sluggums]

Hahahaha....

[maimax]

Don’t feel bad Dancer, we all have ups and downs. I’m not unhappy here. Just took your bait....Mate

[BANANASBANANAS]

The cost of living is, within certain limits, what you choose to make it. You can live simply and save or you can get all the fancy toys and the loans that come with them and not save.

But, if you are coming just for money I suggest that you may well be very unhappy, very quickly. It is vital that you, and any accompanying family members, know that there is a good chance of you being happy in Dubai before uprooting your existing lifestyle.

[Schnowzer]

Go onto https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living Use other sites too.

Have a look at what your life will cost. If you go out a beer costs twice as much as Covent Garden but maybe you don't drink. The shocker for me is telecom, tv and entertainment. There are hidden costs to think about too. For instance I spend 60k every year shuttling family between the UK and UAE but have older kids and family that need a hand. Beware of some of the posters on here, they jump from left to right seat, 2 to 20 years seniority and troll continually in their posts. Do your own homework dispassionately and you will be fine. Just to add, Dubai is a great city when all is going well but when it goes badly, cross the wrong person; it can turn into a ball of chalk really quickly.

[speed2height]

I shop once a month at carrefour and buy most of my stuff on offer. Roughly 800 AED per trip.

I eat out once a week or visit a cinema to keep the missus happy.

What do you and you wife eat? 800dh per month on food for 6/7 days a week?

That is less than 10USD per day! (33dh) for the two of you or 5 USD per day each.

How exactly do you guys live on the cost of cup of coffee each day.

I suspect your figures might be innacurate

[fliion]

P.s. you must think I'm boring. My hobbies are free. Gym is free in the building, same goes for swimming pool. I watch sports/films and play a lot of games. All fairly cheap hobbies! Same for the missus.

Nice - Which playground do you use?

[Calmcavok]

Wife, no kids, only my salary. Company accommo, one car from the EK car loan. No other debts in Dubai, small CC bill from home and a mortgage that is serviced by our tenants.

We choose very carefully where we eat out and go to the pub, otherwise you can pay double central London prices as a bare minimum. Shop around and you can go a bit cheaper. Depends what you're looking for. Beer & wine usually bought downroute. Several holidays/mini-breaks per year. Still save £2k/month. Different story here with children, especially as an FO. We could probably save more but don't want to be miserable!

Best tip: supermarket shop wisely in Dubai. Ignore Spinneys & Waitrose (think Harrods food hall on an Aldi budget), consider Kibsons online delivery. Choithrams, Carrefour, Union Co-op & Lulu are relatively reasonable.

[Kamelchaser]

Good lord Airdancer. Well done...buying clothes and furniture and christmas presents and pretty much everything else on Emirates allowances. That's incredible.

I spend more on porn than you do on monthly essentials. :):O

[Trader]

Most people will spend more than Airdancer to live in Dubai. On an FO salary, if you are careful and single (or married without kids), you should have no problem saving some money. How much will depend on your hobbies.

Add children to the mix and it will change. Very young kids not in school and you will spend less than having 2 kids over the age of six who are also involved in activities.

Long upgrade times for new joiners means you should budget carefully. As a captain you can certainly save. If your wife also has a skill that is in demand - then you can save a LOT of money.

One consideration though: Like investing, your career, at least in financial terms, is a long game! Looking at myself versus the friends who stayed at 'major/legacy' airlines, in the end, they will fare far better financially. This is due to the fact that they will spend an entire career there while most EK pilots will not last to retirement. Very few pilots want to spend their entire life in Dubai, though there are a few. Going home usually means a pay cut or a job commuting with the commensurate lifestyle.

Quite simply, for most of us the draw was/is a big airplane, flying around the globe for good money. It is gratification now vs. later. I am pretty sure most of at EK know someone at home who drools at the thought of doing what we do while he tools around in a 737.

But in the long game, if our friend is at a large airline he will catch up paywise and, if he does not catch up in after tax dollars, he most certainly will when the pension is considered. 20 years of a pension is incredibly valuable and not something most consider.

I also would not consider the housing allowance at EK in any financial planning. Buying a house in Dubai is a muggs game - it may end well, it may end badly. The good times of big increases are gone and at current prices the risk is high and the fixed costs eat away the majority of the allowance.

I don't need pprune to tell me how difficult it has become to live and work in Dubai for EK.
I know the punishing skeds from experience and I know the vast majority of my friends, neighbors and acquaintances want to leave or are leaving.

It is telling that guys who have been here only 2 years are extolling the virtues of the place.

In the end, as I have tried to explain to a few friends who considered coming over the years, it is a risk/reward scenario. EK and Dubai can be good provided that you manage to stay on the very narrow path. You make one wrong move in Dubai (car accident with the wrong person, have consumed alcohol and something happens in which you are not even involved but have been dragged into, are accused of wrong doing etc etc) and your once great career plan is in shambles. EK is the same - wrong place, wrong time, piss of the wrong person etc and, again, career in shambles (even more so now with their warpath mentality).

While the odds of falling off the path or slim I know several pilots who have. The risks that exist here do not exist at home (for most of us).

So, like everything in life, it is a matter of balancing risk in your decision making. Look at the long game and try (I know it's hard :) ) to take the big shiny airplane out of the picture (you will get there anyway just at a different point in your career).

When I came the risk/reward was worth it (in my case a bankruptcy). I was lucky in my timing. Knowing what I do at the moment I would not come now. The conditions have declined and the risk is much higher especially as EK and the region struggle financially.

If you do come then enjoy the good aspects of the job - the pilots are a great bunch and I have enjoyed flying with most guys. The route network is unparalleled and you will see the world.

Just come with eyes wide open and understand the risks.

For me - I've resigned. My health and life are not worth it any longer. While many aspects of the job are now poor I'm grateful for the time I have had the money I've save.

The risk/reward has changed.

[sealear]

Saving money has nothing to do with EK or Dubai, it's relative just like it is anywhere else in the world. Do you have a wife that doesn't work, 2 kids, or no kids and a working wife etc. shop at Carrefour or spinneys. Hang out at zero gravity every weekend.

I save plenty, but that's me and I'm happy with how I do it. If you like to party all the time and lease a Porsche (take a look at the car park sometime.... No shortage of money at EK!) then that's your business.

[my salami]

Most people will spend more than Airdancer to live in Dubai. On an FO salary, if you are careful and single (or married without kids), you should have no problem saving some money. How much will depend on your hobbies.

Add children to the mix and it will change. Very young kids not in school and you will spend less than having 2 kids over the age of six who are also involved in activities.

Long upgrade times for new joiners means you should budget carefully. As a captain you can certainly save. If your wife also has a skill that is in demand - then you can save a LOT of money.

One consideration though: Like investing, your career, at least in financial terms, is a long game! Looking at myself versus the friends who stayed at 'major/legacy' airlines, in the end, they will fare far better financially. This is due to the fact that they will spend an entire career there while most EK pilots will not last to retirement. Very few pilots want to spend their entire life in Dubai, though there are a few. Going home usually means a pay cut or a job commuting with the commensurate lifestyle.

Quite simply, for most of us the draw was/is a big airplane, flying around the globe for good money. It is gratification now vs. later. I am pretty sure most of at EK know someone at home who drools at the thought of doing what we do while he tools around in a 737.

But in the long game, if our friend is at a large airline he will catch up paywise and, if he does not catch up in after tax dollars, he most certainly will when the pension is considered. 20 years of a pension is incredibly valuable and not something most consider.

I also would not consider the housing allowance at EK in any financial planning. Buying a house in Dubai is a muggs game - it may end well, it may end badly. The good times of big increases are gone and at current prices the risk is high and the fixed costs eat away the majority of the allowance.

I don't need pprune to tell me how difficult it has become to live and work in Dubai for EK.
I know the punishing skeds from experience and I know the vast majority of my friends, neighbors and acquaintances want to leave or are leaving.

It is telling that guys who have been here only 2 years are extolling the virtues of the place.

In the end, as I have tried to explain to a few friends who considered coming over the years, it is a risk/reward scenario. EK and Dubai can be good provided that you manage to stay on the very narrow path. You make one wrong move in Dubai (car accident with the wrong person, have consumed alcohol and something happens in which you are not even involved but have been dragged into, are accused of wrong doing etc etc) and your once great career plan is in shambles. EK is the same - wrong place, wrong time, piss of the wrong person etc and, again, career in shambles (even more so now with their warpath mentality).

While the odds of falling off the path or slim I know several pilots who have. The risks that exist here do not exist at home (for most of us).

So, like everything in life, it is a matter of balancing risk in your decision making. Look at the long game and try (I know it's hard :) ) to take the big shiny airplane out of the picture (you will get there anyway just at a different point in your career).

When I came the risk/reward was worth it (in my case a bankruptcy). I was lucky in my timing. Knowing what I do at the moment I would not come now. The conditions have declined and the risk is much higher especially as EK and the region struggle financially.

If you do come then enjoy the good aspects of the job - the pilots are a great bunch and I have enjoyed flying with most guys. The route network is unparalleled and you will see the world.

Just come with eyes wide open and understand the risks.

For me - I've resigned. My health and life are not worth it any longer. While many aspects of the job are now poor I'm grateful for the time I have had the money I've save.

The risk/reward has changed.

Great post T.

It should be put as a sticker!
Those of you considering the move, should read this carefully!

MS

[Vermin]

Cathay Pacific Have announced an end to their expat housing perks. Currently running to $hk110,000 per month , the company have stated this is unsustainable, and must be renegotiated. If no agreement is reached before the end of Dec17 , anecdotal evidence sugests is will be paid at a flat rate of commiserate with current standard contract pilots of around max $HK 30000 ish.

With EK paying AED 16000/ month for Captains, it's entirely possible that there is an influx of disgruntled ex CX pilots who will be able to buy a flat and take the hk $33500 per month offered.

Would still be a drastic pay cut for those boys though. But anger can lead to misguided decisions.

Ironically, an Ex EK skipper just joined Cathay Dragon. On local terms . At no 521 on the seniority. Just intime for the industrial unrest. Top marks.

[Flyingmuppe]

Most people will spend more than Airdancer to live in Dubai. On an FO salary, if you are careful and single (or married without kids), you should have no problem saving some money. How much will depend on your hobbies.

Add children to the mix and it will change. Very young kids not in school and you will spend less than having 2 kids over the age of six who are also involved in activities.

Long upgrade times for new joiners means you should budget carefully. As a captain you can certainly save. If your wife also has a skill that is in demand - then you can save a LOT of money.

One consideration though: Like investing, your career, at least in financial terms, is a long game! Looking at myself versus the friends who stayed at 'major/legacy' airlines, in the end, they will fare far better financially. This is due to the fact that they will spend an entire career there while most EK pilots will not last to retirement. Very few pilots want to spend their entire life in Dubai, though there are a few. Going home usually means a pay cut or a job commuting with the commensurate lifestyle.

Quite simply, for most of us the draw was/is a big airplane, flying around the globe for good money. It is gratification now vs. later. I am pretty sure most of at EK know someone at home who drools at the thought of doing what we do while he tools around in a 737.

But in the long game, if our friend is at a large airline he will catch up paywise and, if he does not catch up in after tax dollars, he most certainly will when the pension is considered. 20 years of a pension is incredibly valuable and not something most consider.

I also would not consider the housing allowance at EK in any financial planning. Buying a house in Dubai is a muggs game - it may end well, it may end badly. The good times of big increases are gone and at current prices the risk is high and the fixed costs eat away the majority of the allowance.

I don't need pprune to tell me how difficult it has become to live and work in Dubai for EK.
I know the punishing skeds from experience and I know the vast majority of my friends, neighbors and acquaintances want to leave or are leaving.

It is telling that guys who have been here only 2 years are extolling the virtues of the place.

In the end, as I have tried to explain to a few friends who considered coming over the years, it is a risk/reward scenario. EK and Dubai can be good provided that you manage to stay on the very narrow path. You make one wrong move in Dubai (car accident with the wrong person, have consumed alcohol and something happens in which you are not even involved but have been dragged into, are accused of wrong doing etc etc) and your once great career plan is in shambles. EK is the same - wrong place, wrong time, piss of the wrong person etc and, again, career in shambles (even more so now with their warpath mentality).

While the odds of falling off the path or slim I know several pilots who have. The risks that exist here do not exist at home (for most of us).

So, like everything in life, it is a matter of balancing risk in your decision making. Look at the long game and try (I know it's hard :) ) to take the big shiny airplane out of the picture (you will get there anyway just at a different point in your career).

When I came the risk/reward was worth it (in my case a bankruptcy). I was lucky in my timing. Knowing what I do at the moment I would not come now. The conditions have declined and the risk is much higher especially as EK and the region struggle financially.

If you do come then enjoy the good aspects of the job - the pilots are a great bunch and I have enjoyed flying with most guys. The route network is unparalleled and you will see the world.

Just come with eyes wide open and understand the risks.

For me - I've resigned. My health and life are not worth it any longer. While many aspects of the job are now poor I'm grateful for the time I have had the money I've save.

The risk/reward has changed.

I would like to sincerely thank You about this text. I was selected to EK and was offered a position with them in the near future. I have been back and forth about what to do; trying to compare my current future with the EK future. This is what I wanted to read and this has made my final decision easier. I also have friends in the company and I have consulted them on many occasions.

Yours
X

[fatbus]

Everyone considering EK should read traders post at least twice , absorb what he is trying to pass on . All true!

[ruserious]

Trader, one of the best posts I have ever seen, well balanced and objective.

[tripleslavin]

One of the best post I've read Trader. Totally agree.

You can save money anywhere, but the life/health balance is the key.

As for the EK skipper who went the Cathay Dragon, well done that man. He's not the first and won't be the last to go in that direction.

[Divertnow]

It seems we haven't met then. Speak for yourself and not for all....
I don’t think he was speaking for all. He just doesn’t know anyone who is planning on staying very long. I don’t know that many either, including myself. The work here is a killer. My first three years were fantastic in terms of work life balance but I can’t take this pace much longer.

[givemewings]

Trader :D :D

"My health and life are no longer worth it"

That's exactly my thought that lead me to pull the pin. I don't want to be there when the inevitable smoking hole happens... and sadly, it seems only a matter of (borrowed) time.

They need a massive cup of wake the f... up!

[RK Blue sky]

I don't know how anyone can stay long term at Emirates either. My body is killing me slowly. Maybe after years here slagging it off you somehow get use to the abuse both physical and mental but that is a dangerous game to play with your body and your life.
When is Delta going to call me for an interview? I don't want to be the last American left standing.

[aviation_enthus]

My wife and I made the decision last year to give EK/Dubai a go. So yes I'm only relatively new.

The one thing we have noticed: if you were capable of saving money and sticking to a budget back in your home country, you will be able to save here. However if you aren't that sort of person, you will find plenty of things to take your money in Dubai. After all salary=expenses for some people....

We have 4 children, 2 in school so far. We chose a school that matches the education allowance. We're in company accommodation. As mentioned the company accomodation is fine. We spend more on food than we did back home but 5000 dirhams a month is more than enough for groceries and fuel costs. We put aside a reasonable amount for travel , money for the missus and some bills. After all that we manage to save about 11000 dirhams a month.

We came over with a couple of goals in mind. One of these is money, the other is having a new experience. However if we get to the end of the bond and my wife isn't happy, we'll go home. I didn't have the option to join a legacy carrier, only a LCC back in Aus.

EK isn't for everyone. Dubai is not for everyone. If you have the option of a legacy/major back in your home country, I would take that. But for the rest of us, there are plenty of jobs that are worse than EK. If you think you can achieve something for your career/life by coming here, go for it.

[SOPS]

Trader :D :D

"My health and life are no longer worth it"

That's exactly my thought that lead me to pull the pin. I don't want to be there when the inevitable smoking hole happens... and sadly, it seems only a matter of (borrowed) time.

They need a massive cup of wake the f... up!

It is not until you stop that you really realise just bad for your health the EK rosters are. After a few months you find out how much better you feel.

[givemewings]

It is not until you stop that you really realise just bad for your health the EK rosters are. After a few months you find out how much better you feel.

I felt better the second we were wheels up:ok:

Just the mental barriers we live with not being there any more is a great start. Don't have to worry about getting pinched for this that are normal back home. I know the chances of actually getting arrested in the sandpit are generally slim, but even as a law abiding citizen, the thought is always there in the back of your mind.

As I described it recently, I feel like I just got out of a really ****ty emotionally abusive relationship, couldn't see it really til I was out. "Bit he seemed so nice" is always the refrain and it's no different with this lot.

[Consol]

https://blog.aerlingus.com/launching-largest-ever-pilot-recruitment-drive/

Decent airline, good T&Cs, civilised country where you have rights. Might suit some of the youngish guys and girls with EU passports.

[Kobus Dune]

We're in company accommodation. As mentioned the company accomodation is fine. .

That only sentence does kill your whole paragraph.


After all that we manage to save about 11000 dirhams a month..

I'm afraid you save all that on the back of your 4 kids.

[aviation_enthus]

I'm not really sure what you mean by these two selective quotes?

That only sentence does kill your whole paragraph.


I'm afraid you save all that on the back of your 4 kids.

Like I said the accomodation villas aren't bad. Would I buy one? No, the quality of workmanship is rubbish compared to anything you'd get back home. But to live in they're ok.

Are you implying we should be spending all that money on the kids every month?!

[Kobus Dune]

.... the quality of workmanship is rubbish .... But to live in they're ok.

So you enjoy living in rubbish ?

....
Are you implying we should be spending all that money on the kids every month?!

No, you can always feed them with pasta and rice the whole month

" all that money " you said you had 4 of them ?

[aviation_enthus]

So you enjoy living in rubbish ?



No, you can always feed them with pasta and rice the whole month

" all that money " you said you had 4 of them ?


Like I said, I was trying to provide a reasonable comment based on our experience in EK and Dubai. Clearly I have forgotten Pprune is not the place for reasonable comments. Enjoy your negativity mate...

[sealear]

aviation, haven't you learned anything. You can't post ANYTHING positive/factual about EK/Dubai here, even if it is IS true!

Kobus, I wouldn't call company accommodation 'rubbish'. I live out, but my time there was ok.

[Kobus Dune]

I'm not negative : for example, I usually have excellent rosters, which make for a great time here.

I didn't use the word "rubbish" first, please read again.

[Desert Peregrin]

Two different sides of the same story, EK is what you make of it, as simple as that. The same applies to Dubai.
I would never tell anyone not to come to EK simply because I know a big numbers of guys who are happy here. Personally EK and Dubai worked well for me, I was mostly happy about the way I was treated by the company during my time here, except for some occasions while in training events . But the time passed and now I'm tired and after over 30 years flying I need a lighter job. Boeing rosters are good when you talk about the top bid months, mainly with a reasonable seniority. But they can be horrible in your bottom bid months. I don't mind flying 90 hours if I have 12 to 15 days off plus a few rest days or arrivals just after midnight. That's the Big Bus life every month. But I'm Boeing and flying 90 hours with just seven days off is something I can't do it for long anymore, and I had that recently.
Besides that I have to admit that after over 20k hours of experience in airlines I want to have piece of mind when it comes to my recurrent PPC's. I'm tired of having to regain my job every six months. The uncertainty of how your sim rides will be is what makes me unconfortable. My two last PPC's were amazing, really positive experiences, but unfortunately you just know that for sure when it ends. I had other ones which were quiet painful and even though I managed to pass they were simply horrible experiences.
Money wise as it was already said here is quiet good, but it's becoming harder and harder to save money due to the escalating prices for anything you need. FO with children saving money? Well done Aviation enthus, this is really not easy.
Company accomodation isn't bad at all, lot's of internal space and not the worst areas in town. MS and MH have small garden areas, but still have very generous internal areas. I don't think too many pilots could afford to live in villas of the EK average size before coming to Dubai. The building standards are not great, but acceptable, and at the end of the day it's not yours and EK pays for all maintenance. All your bills related to the villa are paid by EK as well, even the gas for your BBQ. So it's definitely not "rubbish" as Kobus mentioned. By the way if Aviation still saves money with four children you should tell him he's a magician, if you want, but not hit him hard.
I left company accomodation for a much better standard a long time ago, but this isn't viable today. Even you manage to buy something really nice the bills and the interest will kill most of the alllowance, if not all. The option now (my opinion) is to buy a 3 bed townhouse for just over 2 million dirhams and make every expense fit inside the allowance. By doing this you just spend the down payment and then EK will pay the rest. Once you leave you sell the house and take all the money back home. But keep in mind that this choice means a downgrade in terms of space, though not necessarily a downgrade in terms of community standards.
Savings are possible, but it depends a lot on your choices in how to spend your hard worked for money.
I was visiting a friend in the Meydan South a few days ago and I've seen a Ferrari that looked quiet new parked in a colleague's garage next to his villa. That's a good example of someone that most likely don't save much, cause that toy probably costs him more than 4 children. Ferraris are not very common in company accomodation but Porsches are everywhere and they're not cheap at all. Fancy sport cars are the most common way of burning your money, mainly if you buy a brand new one.
So my advice to all that are planning to come to EK is to look at YOURSELF and YOUR family and decide if it's going to be worthy for YOU, considering YOUR priorities and YOUR future plans. Don't let others decide what will be your future life.
Unhappy people use to come here more often than the happy ones, keep that in mind as well!

[Dan Winterland]

As for the EK skipper who went the Cathay Dragon, well done that man. He's not the first and won't be the last to go in that direction.

The way things are changing in HKG, there are several contemplating the reverse direction.

[jack schidt]

Good post Desert Peregrin, I agree with your post and sentiments. Every airline around the world has its issues, no job is the perfect job, but for some EK might be the better option than your current outfit.

EK and Dubai are what you make of them. If you want to moan and feel bitter about things, then you will probably do that wherever you lay your head.

Hi Dan, good to see you lurking in these forums, your fingers accidentally tap the wrong forum heading haha. Now I must go take out the Bentley and hope I don’t scratch the Ferrari on the way out to Brunch, oh it’s a EK Pilots life for me!

Happy Halloween

J

[what_goes_up]

Desert Peregrin seconded!

[falconeasydriver]

I’m guessing none of you happy souls have been relocated to the MS labour camp and who are enjoying the delights of the South Americans and their 5am “samba”parties, like my mate is.
Being happy because you are used to being treated a certain way and housed a certain way is not the same, theres a city in Sweden that’s named after that particular affliction.

[sealear]

There is a pretty simple solution to that. Take the allowance and separate yourself from EK accommodation. Why anyone would want to live out there is beyond me :yuk:

Spot on desert, couldn't agree more!

[White Knight]

enjoying the delights of the South Americans and their 5am “samba”parties, like my mate is.

I've found that a well directed hose pipe works well for shutting up the noisy ones:ok: We used to have a very noisy PITA Mexican neighbor and a blast of water over the party shut 'em down very quickly!

[Kobus Dune]

Besides that I have to admit that after over 20k hours of experience in airlines I want to have piece of mind when it comes to my recurrent PPC's. I'm tired of having to regain my job every six months..

Exactly the same for me, especially with a trainer 20 years younger ...

FO with children saving money? Well done Aviation enthus, this is really not easy.

As I said, feed them with pasta and leave them with TV or smartphone ...

I left company accomodation for a much better standard a long time ago, but this isn't viable today. Even you manage to buy something really nice the bills and the interest will kill most of the alllowance, if not all. The option now (my opinion) is to buy a 3 bed townhouse for just over 2 million dirhams and make every expense fit inside the allowance.
A townhouse is another name for a flat just built on the sand, with a garage and a Damas tree beside it, being called a garden .... and stuck between two similar outfits, in a multicultural district.
So in simple words, you just said that what was possible some years ago, is no longer affordable - have we been collectively punished for something ?

Pprune readers considering the move will be delighted to read that should they come, they will have to live in an improved labour camp.

[momo95]

Guys what's the deal on this emirates offer? Nearly finishing up my ATPLs in europe on a cadet programme with employment on a 320 soon ... what are the chances of succeeding and getting the 777? I'd imagine over the next 3 years it will be the 777x we'll be talking about. There's lots of negativity here but I've also heard many people are loving it and so I'd love to take the plunge and head east for a few years, one guy I'm following on instagram even bought one very fancy looking sports car after just over a year there ... can't be that bad!!

[Desert Peregrin]

Couldn't agree more Kobus! And these young ones need to prove themselves that they deserve their job by trying to teach you something they still don't know for themselves! And the "peace"(no corrector this time) of mind will never come while these guys are still there...

I don't know Aviation saves like that with four children.
Anyway happiness doesn't necessarily come together with how much money you spend.

Property markets change worldwide Kobus, Dubai is no exception to this.
Anyway the cost of living here is becoming a big problem for all of us, even more when we don't even get our step of 3%!

Regarding the town houses when I first bought in Dubai it was a town house in the Ranches. It was a confortable house in an amazing community. So I have to disagree with you Kobus, many of the town house communities are nice places to live in. And remember, we're pilots, we're not at the top of the salary levels.:=

[sealear]

Not taking the bait :rolleyes:

[nolimitholdem]

Millennials...too lazy to even bother crafting a believable troll! :}

[momo95]

Not sure where the trolling is, it would be a lie to say i (and without a doubt many others in my position) haven't got one eye wondering over that direction with something of a wish to go there. I've been an observer of these threads for a long time and the negativity is obvious, the only other views of the job at EK are via instagram, and in all honesty the cries of negativity here do not play out on there. So I used a thread which seemed suitable to ask the question. And over the next 3 years it does look like the 777x will be coming in. Never mind I'll find another way to get my information.

[Trader]

momo - no issue with your question.

But I would be interested to know how instagram, essentially a photo sharing social media site, can provide any meaningful information? Not forgetting that many like to post their 'hero' photos - big airplane, destination, flight deck etc. I like taking the same photos once and while, though without the need to constantly post them to prove how good my life is.

There is good and bad at EK. Anyone with half a brain can go through the posts and come to a logical conclusion about conditions and whether they would suit the individual. Looking at pretty pictures on instagram is not a through investigation.

You are new to the business - not even fully licenced. We were all there at one time and had the same dreams - big shiny airplanes, flying around the planet, pretty cabin crew and illusions of grandeur. I would even suggest that most of us, when we came to EK, during the times when we were experienced new hires, STILL came (at least in small part) due to the big, shiny airplane.

The difference today is that the conditions are different. Which is why they can no longer find anyone with experience. So, yup, if you can get here in the next few years with low time it might be a good bet.

Some time in the future the hiring boom will stop (it always does) and it will be interesting to see then how the conditions will be perceived. If conditions are bad when they can't find pilots imagine how they will change when they have an ample supply.

But then again who cares right - cause you're flying a big, shiny jet.

[BANANASBANANAS]

EK, at the moment, reminds me of the (allegedly apocryphal) conversation between the Executive Financial Director and Chief Operations Officer of a large airline.

EFD: 'What happens if we invest in the pilots by paying them what they are worth and they leave?'

COO: 'What happens if we don't, and they stay?'

[givemewings]

momo, you'll find that a fair few of the 'popular' EK instagrammers are on the company payroll- if not actually being paid, getting perks in return for posting about how amazing it is.

I would take it with a pinch of salt. One of the more... how shall I put this... 'selfie obssessed' CC instagrammers who regularly says how amazing the EK life is, actually couldn't wait to leave the job after 6 months and was banging on about how much they hated the pax and the job was beneath them... until said crew realised that posting about how glam their life at the airline was would start netting them promo flights, press freebies and expensive gifts from 'admirers'... the account is now little more than blatant cross promotion and photos that would get anyone else posting them fired.

EK has a stable of CC and FC 'grammers who basically get free reign to post whatever so long as it portrays the company and the job in a positive light (while not being able to post about anything negative) It's all part of the promo machine

[sealear]

momo... don't get me wrong, I like it here at EK. BUT.... what you see on Instagram is pretty far from the truth. You can make EK and DXB work for you, but coming here and buying fancy cars isn't the way to do it. It might be fun for a few years, but when the shine wears off and you only have a couple of dirhams to your name, then reality is going to set in. I think a lot of new joiners are going to learn that lesson the hard way.

If you want to make it your career goal to come and work for EK then good on you, but I hope you are doing it for the right reasons :)

[A320 Skipper]

Quick question guys, I have almost 3000 hours on the A320, do someone knows what are the chances of being send to the 777?
This may sound stupid, but do HR ask you if you have a "Favorite" aircraft?
Regards.

[Murrenfan]

They will assign you to any fleet they need you at the moment. Many guys with airbus experience are in boeing fleet.

[felixthecat]

How times have changed when cadets, not even holding a freshly minted ATPL, are at the stage where they are Emirates hopefuls.
Things have certainly changed and those posts prove it.

[hunterboy]

It does seem an ok job for the short term, live for the moment type lifestyle.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Exactly that, Tango.

Unfortunately, Emirates (and most other airlines, to be fair) are run by HR bean counters who are entirely focussed on chasing this years results, cost cutting target and bonus payment.

There is therefore no difference as far as they are concerned between a 1500 hour ATPL pilot and a 20000 hour ATPL pilot. Same licence and each can only produce 900 factored hours a year towards the bottom line. You and I know that is a very dangerous policy to follow but, hey, its legal.

I have nothing against inexperience at all, we were all there once, but if you lower the recruitment experience bar as much as Emirates has (rather than increase terms and conditions to maintain experience levels) then not only are there reduced experience levels coming into the airline but the decreasing terms, conditions and qol drive many experienced pilots (and many not so experienced too) out of the company.

When incidents then happen on the line the management fix is to penalise the entire remaining workforce with no notice line checks, etc etc rather than deal with individuals in a fair and just manner - thereby driving yet more experience out of the company.

We currently have 12 B777 parked at DWC but even with this reduction in capacity, crewing are constantly calling pilots who are on days off to ask if they will give up their day off and fly.

Factor in the ongoing evictions throughout DSO and the introduction of GST in a couple of months time and I can see things getting a whole lot worse if Emirates management does not alter course.

[felixthecat]

I am generally pretty close to the legal limits these days with regard to 1 in 7 and 2 in 14. I would rarely be able to give up a day off and fly legally. With so many aircraft grounded and yet pilots flying so much and close to limits, it begs the question as to what would happen if they suddenly needed these aircraft to fly again.

When things are not working then you need to do something about it and change. That's why pilots are leaving. To stop the attrition the other side of the equation, EK, needs to change or we continue the downward spiral.

[viperburns]

So guys, little help here, I applied a week ago and oh boy were they fast in reacting. They called me early in the morning. I have about 5 K hours, still a rightseater on 320s. I mainly want the wide body experience and get the upgrade there hopefully. To date, I don’t know anything about Emirates. It was on a whim I applied and they have been frantic. I didn’t do the video interview. They said it s ok, we ll fast track you. Now I have got all this scary package of assessment process. I feel like a test subject. I was on upgrade tract but things seem to have slowed down for now and I was thinking instead of waiting another 5 years or so to fly wide body, I could go to them gulf companies to fly more on the right and eventually get the left seat proper. Now I am not so sure. I see so many negative posts, I think I am gonna continue my semi-miserable f/o life here, things will turn up hopefully and I ll get an upgrade.

[nakbin330]

So guys, little help here, I applied a week ago and oh boy were they fast in reacting. They called me early in the morning. I have about 5 K hours, still a rightseater on 320s. I mainly want the wide body experience and get the upgrade there hopefully. To date, I don’t know anything about Emirates. It was on a whim I applied and they have been frantic. I didn’t do the video interview. They said it s ok, we ll fast track you. Now I have got all this scary package of assessment process. I feel like a test subject. I was on upgrade tract but things seem to have slowed down for now and I was thinking instead of waiting another 5 years or so to fly wide body, I could go to them gulf companies to fly more on the right and eventually get the left seat proper. Now I am not so sure. I see so many negative posts, I think I am gonna continue my semi-miserable f/o life here, things will turn up hopefully and I ll get an upgrade.

You know nothing about EK yet you see so many negative posts???

[Ramones]

So guys, little help here, I applied a week ago and oh boy were they fast in reacting. They called me early in the morning. I have about 5 K hours, still a rightseater on 320s. I mainly want the wide body experience and get the upgrade there hopefully. To date, I don’t know anything about Emirates. It was on a whim I applied and they have been frantic. I didn’t do the video interview. They said it s ok, we ll fast track you. Now I have got all this scary package of assessment process. I feel like a test subject. I was on upgrade tract but things seem to have slowed down for now and I was thinking instead of waiting another 5 years or so to fly wide body, I could go to them gulf companies to fly more on the right and eventually get the left seat proper. Now I am not so sure. I see so many negative posts, I think I am gonna continue my semi-miserable f/o life here, things will turn up hopefully and I ll get an upgrade.
Hi first of all I’m not working for EK
What I suggest you is do what you think is the best for your family or carrier or whatever is your top priority
Don’t do it base in pprune comments, in 30 years I herd ALWAYS people complaining for somthing
Maybe the same people that before joining were flying for couple of thousand dollars on shi..ti planes in shi..ti places
Take all this as info then make your choise

[sealear]

No offence viper but why did you apply if you don't know anything about EK? People coming in here blind is half the reason the place is such a disaster now.
Anyway.... come and do the interview, why not? You'll get a free 4 day trip to DXB. See if you like it. Then go home, you will have about 2-4 weeks to think about it before you get a YES or NO e-mail anyway. So plenty of time to discuss with the wife or whatever.

Good luck

[jack schidt]

Moving to the Middle East “IS NOT” only a career change, “IT IS” a lifestyle change for the whole family.

Be aware that if the family are not happy with moving here then your career move will be a bad choice as you will return to your country, perhaps in a worse place than where you left with a family who are now less settled everywhere.

It’s not just you and your career, it’s the culture, education and happiness of your family you have to consider the most. For those without family’s, there are plenty of unattached girls here but then you are potentially locking yourself here for 10 plus years to get your command and potentially a foreign wife with added complications.

Moving to the ME should be your primary consideration and flying the Big shiny stuff second. As an Airbus pilot it is very likely you would end up on the 777 at this time.

Why have EK jumped at your application, that is an answer you have to answer and understand why you are not in a long queue of applicants.

Good weekend to all

J

[fatbus]

I would airbus to airbus . Still can't get enough on the 380!

[White Knight]

As an Airbus pilot it is very likely you would end up on the 777 at this time.

What fatty says... Airbus pilots to the 380 at the moment.

[jack schidt]

This week an FO hinted that the bottom of the pile on the 4 are being considered for a move to the light twin, up to 20%!

Rumours roumours

J

[BigGeordie]

Well, I'm still doing 90+ hours a month on the big bus so I don't see how we can lose 1/5 of the pilots on that fleet.

[EK-or-bust]

Almost right, mmmbop, old chum :8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG0ochx16Dg

But well put, nevertheless :D


Viperburns,

Take a look at what you wrote:

You don't need to listen to what anybody else says about the place, everything you need to know is in your own post. There are enough indicators for you to be screaming "*Warning Will Robinson, Warning*!!"

;)

[salamalecom]

I have recently been asked via Private Message if EK is really as bad as it is painted on these pages. Surely people exaggerate or even make things up for their own nefarious ends? It can't be possible for a major international airline- and wannabe major international brand- to behave in such an uncaring and cavalier fashion towards its employees. Can it?

Well, I have plenty of time to write a reply at the moment as I'm on a flight back to Dubai from my home country. I had six days off in a row, which is a reasonably rare event but not unheard of, so I went home for four days. I got downgraded to economy on the way out, despite having a waitlisted ID50 for business class. On the way back there was only one flight in two days where I was fairly confident I would get on at all and this is a destination with three flights per day. This is in late February, not school or public holiday time. Here is the first lesson- do not think it is easy to use staff travel when you do get days off especially with low seniority. Flights are very often full and, especially travelling with a family, it will be a stressful experience. It also starts to get expensive very quickly. Even ID90s are far from free.

More observant readers will have noticed that, although I had six days off, I only went home for four. This is because after my days off I am rostered for an ultra long haul flight and the company demands that I be back in Dubai for three full nights before such a duty. It is very common to have such flights rostered after a block of days off and it can often completely prevent travel. It is worth mentioning that the majority of pilots I have spoken too believe that the company's interpretation of the flight time limitations is not correct and there is no legal need to be in Dubai so early. However, only the company's interpretation matters and it is not negotiable. This is lesson two- having days off does not mean you are free of the demands of the company. It is also worth mentioning at this point that the company, being a government entity, does not have to follow any employment laws. Even in Dubai, where the employment laws tend to be biased in favour of employers, that is worth having a good think about but before you sign up.

My wife decided to stay at home for a couple of weeks. Or possibly months. As she pointed out, I am only actually in Dubai for 12 “useful” days in March. “Useful” means days when I have not just got back from a long flight at 6am and am either in bed or exhausted for the rest of the day. I am flying 100 hours in March and the last three months have all been between 95 and 105, with a similar number of days in Dubai. Not surprisingly my spouse is getting sick of effectively living on her own as I am often away for five or six days at a time. Everyone's marriage is different and I leave it up to you to speculate on the effect living like this is likely to have on yours. Lesson three. The job is a marriage wrecker. The irony is a lot of people bring their families to Dubai for a better life, then never see them. Or the wife gets sick of being a one parent family and goes back home. With your children. You will see them even less then- see lesson 1.

I actually did relatively well for leave this year and got some of what I wanted. However, I still have 7 days of “forced leave” allocated by the company at a time of year I certainly wouldn't have chosen. This 7 day block finishes only three weeks before a period of leave I actually asked for. I have no doubt, based on past experience, that I will be flying for 90 hours during the month when I have this week “off”. As that is almost a normal month's roster the leave is actually only the days off for the month compressed together. Lesson four and five- you don't choose when your holiday is, the company does and it isn't really holiday at all as you still do the same amount of work that month. Working here, you are tired and jet lagged. Constantly.

When I joined Emirates, just over a decade ago, I left a secure job at a reputable European airline. Indeed, I was just coming up for my wide body command there. Nobody I spoke to at the time, either inside or outside Emirates, thought it was a bad idea. This was one of the best jobs to have in aviation in terms of both lifestyle and salary. Indeed some people in my previous company were positively envious. Now, I doubt any pilot inside Emirates would give an unqualified yes to the question, “Should I apply?”

The sixth and final (for now) lesson. If you join today the terms and conditions you experience will be the best you will get for your time here. In ten plus years I can't think of anything I could honestly say has improved. Other posts have mentioned the rampant inflation (and, coming soon, VAT- for an instant 5% pay cut) and the difficulty of saving on an F/O salary.

So there you go. No, we aren't making it up. Almost all of the posts are true and when somebody does post something that is completely wrong somebody else will correct it pretty quickly. After all this is the internet!

So??? Why are you still there???

[salamalecom]

Upgrades are taking longer and longer. some pilots are now realizing , more so on the 777, that they need attrition in order to upgrade. Hence the sky is falling on Pprune.
Last month 70k in the bank , company housing, OT, TRI pay, 13 days off. Close to 15 years , exit plan not because of EK or Dubai but because the money bucket almost full.

Congrats man, happy for you. Would be a pleasure to share a cockpit with you... not with these foolish and negative people around here on pprune

[falconeasydriver]

Salamalecom. Not busy in Costa today I guess. Please go back to third floor where you no doubt do your best to look busy and important.
I’m back in DXB for a few days, come down to the Irish village for a beer and a pork chop.

[CaptainChipotle]

salamalamala... ...try to not make it so obvious.

Beers and pork chops sound pretty good right about now.

[IEFCL]

Are most of the guys in the EK’s cockpits as negative as people here? I understand that terms and conditions are falling down at the increasing rate but it must be challenging to share the flightdeck with the guy who moans about the company for 9+ hours.
P.S. for some pilots EK, even with all its flaws, is a much much better place than those airlines they work for.

[Neptune Spear]

It actually IS the company’s responsibility to please you or guess what happens? You leave.
Pay me or trade me. Please me or I’ll walk. There is a severe pilot shortage in case you have your head up your arse.
There is such a massive difference in Delta and Emirates. Everyone tries and helps each other and also to help the company. It is such a refreshing change after 3 years of hell at Emirates.
I know not everyone can work in the states but there are airlines that treat their employees right and you should try and work there. You will be so much better off in your paycheck and your psyche. The only wish is that I got to leave the sand sooner.
Salamalecon highlights everything wrong with Emirates and the Middle East. It is not all like that outside of EK. I don’t know where he come from.

[springbok449]

Sala,

Two quotes that says it all about your post really, one made by you:
“I’m not a local, I’m an expat being treated here better than in my home country”

And here’s one made an industry leader:
“Train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don't want to”

I shall leave you to reflect on that...

[sealear]

Pay check better in the states than ek? I find that hard to believe.... after 10+ yrs and left seat maybe.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Sala -
Quote:
Originally Posted by superbantas View Post
Kuwait Airways is a nightmare . DONT COME...is the worst airline..You are not allowed to leave the country on your days off...no upgrades ..Locals have everything . and they make jokes all the time about expats...ITS A PRISON...on contract there is nothing what they promisse to you..DONT COME
Totally Agree!

First off all, this isn't an Airline, this is a CIRCUS! This is the CAOS, a big MESS!!!! Never seen this before. They don't know does what "Professionalism" means, this is a playground for the locals kuwaiti's playboys do whatever they want. People on management are lazy, stupid and dumb, 10 secretaries plus the management guys doing nothing, just distracted talking each other about futilities and bothering other people. In the 21st Century they still smoke in the Cockpit in a Commercial flight during flight, on ground, all the time, like crazy!!! And not only the crewing Capt/F.O - they invite every one onboard, even passangers and cabin crew to come to the Cockpit to smoke a little bit during flight and don't care if you are smoker or not (But let's pray for God and our Profet, because i'm an idiot and i'm unable to control myself in absence of cigarette's for few hours). You frequently feel like if you are in a Prank and catch yourself looking for the cameras, many things that happens there are really uncredible.

Maybe this is the Paradise for people from Egypt, Africa, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iemen, Libya, Argelia, Tunisia, Marroco, India, Phillipines, whatever, but for people from the Civilized World i'm sure this is a big ****, a nightmare, the companie's, the people and living in this **** of country as well: all is ****ty.

They don't comply with the contract terms, even the contract isn't clear, and you'll be blocked in this country in your days off (max 2 days off per month in a row for expats), they think we are their slaves, like these Indians, phillipinos, whatever. The treatment you receive is rude, unclear and you are all the time rushing, doing the same thing for them or other's people job 10 times, because they are lazy, not organized and lose or forget everything, even your Medicals Expiry date, PC, IR checks, tickets and hotel bookings on duty, paymnets, everything, if you don't remind the 10 lazy secretaries. YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY IN YOUR DAYS OFF WITHOUT AN EXIT PERMISSION LETTER FOR IMMIGRATION, which you have to request at least 5 days before to your Fleet Chief Pilot (Subjected to Approval) if they remember that you exist later or don't lose the papers. HARD PAPERWORK FOR EVERYTHING!!! THEY STOPPED ON THE 50'S, 60'S ... Funny to see it, the Company, the whole country and Government Departments runs like this.

Local Pilots (yokels) think they are the best pilots and persons on earth, the owners of Aviation Knowledge, superior and that this is a Real Airline and that we are lucky and should be grateful to be here flying along with them, the best company in the world for them, because they don't have any other References and background on their Aviation Career, flying for other Airlines, their only reference on Aviation is this ****, which they believe it is not only a real Airline, but the best airline in the world (inshallah). I'm all the time laughing inside about this Kuwaitis Arab hicks, yokels, islamic country bumpkins, Islamic Bitches, who thinks they are the best in something, this is a big **** of country, people and company.

They should be banned to fly into Europe and US, isn't safe.

If they keep things in this way, they gonna have a Crash soon there, with this company desperatly trying to grow at any cost, without any criteria and with lot's of incompetent people in every where, all sectors, starting from CEO, Operations VP and Management, without being prepared for this growth.

Don't come to this place unless if you and your family are starving and even on this situation, you'll be happier staying in your country, at home, doing other things.


Hmmmm interesting, on the last page he wrote -
I'm sorry guys, but it isn't the Companie's reponsibility to please you, to make you happy and bring some inner light to you, positivity and hapiness for your ****ty life. This is not your daddy's company, this is a job like any other and not a time for fun and celebration, and that's why sometimes or often it's boring: a job is a job everywhere, any sector, that's why it's called "job" and not "party". You choosed your profession and career, nobody forced you to become a pilot right? You should know all these stuffs, how does commercial aviation and airline jobs works for Pilot's BEFORE you decided to become one... this talk all the time, to come here to complaint about how does things on EK works and how tough it is for you to cope with that is so infantile. Again: it isn't Emirates responsibility to make you happy, to bring some light for you life and to please you. It is your job, your homework to be happy with what you have in your hands and don't bother people around you with your insatisfaction and negativity. *I'm not a "local", i'm an expat being treated here better than in my homecountry.

Seems like he is a bit confused about his own advice.

[BANANASBANANAS]

I'm sorry guys, but it isn't the Companie's reponsibility to please you, to make you happy and bring some inner light to you, positivity and hapiness for your ****ty life. This is not your daddy's company, this is a job like any other and not a time for fun and celebration, and that's why sometimes or often it's boring: a job is a job everywhere, any sector, that's why it's called "job" and not "party". You choosed your profession and career, nobody forced you to become a pilot right? You should know all these stuffs, how does commercial aviation and airline jobs works for Pilot's BEFORE you decided to become one... this talk all the time, to come here to complaint about how does things on EK works and how tough it is for you to cope with that is so infantile. Again: it isn't Emirates responsibility to make you happy, to bring some light for you life and to please you. It is your job, your homework to be happy with what you have in your hands and don't bother people around you with your insatisfaction and negativity. *I'm not a "local", i'm an expat being treated here better than in my homecountry.

Either a severe case of Stockholm Syndrome or a paid blogger or twitter merchant or a costa dweller with too much time on his hands.

Most of us are positive people here but you really don't get it do you. We are positive despite the company, not because of the company. There is a massive recruitment and attrition problem that the company will not even admit exists to the workforce - choosing to remove, or make it difficult to access, data sources such as the seniority list for example in an attempt to keep a lid on the truth getting out rather than deal properly with the situation.

And to answer your question re we knew what airlines were like before we signed up. Well, yes, I did. When I started commercial flying, airlines were run almost entirely by pilot managers and directors, the job was fun, the term HR hadn't been invented, 'Personnel' was the department that dealed with administration, Flight Time Limitations really were limitations annd not targets and all pilot recruitment was conducted purely by pilot managers.

And it worked.

HR have taken over this industry and driven it into the ground. And, assuming you really are a pilot, idiots like you have made it easy for them. Profit and cost cutting at the expense of ethics seems to be acceptable and this is most definitely not the same industry I joined.

[salamalecom]

Either a severe case of Stockholm Syndrome or a paid blogger or twitter merchant or a costa dweller with too much time on his hands.

Most of us are positive people here but you really don't get it do you. We are positive despite the company, not because of the company. There is a massive recruitment and attrition problem that the company will not even admit exists to the workforce - choosing to remove, or make it difficult to access, data sources such as the seniority list for example in an attempt to keep a lid on the truth getting out rather than deal properly with the situation.

And to answer your question re we knew what airlines were like before we signed up. Well, yes, I did. When I started commercial flying, airlines were run almost entirely by pilot managers and directors, the job was fun, the term HR hadn't been invented, 'Personnel' was the department that dealed with administration and all pilot recruitment was conducted purely by pilot managers.

And it worked.

HR have taken over this industry and driven it into the ground. And, assuming you really are a pilot, idiots like you have made it easy for them.

Yes buddy, i do agree with all you've said but what we have in hands today is HR running companie's, and it isn't only on Aviation Industrie but for all sectors of capitalism. Or do we find a better way to deal with this or we leave the business, because things won't go back again like it used to be before, unfortunately.

[Jack D]

Salam I think you have a poor basis for comparison . If you were metaphorically kicked in the backside every day in your home country then a kick only every other day here would seem like a positive improvement .

[SOPS]

I'm sorry guys, but it isn't the Companie's reponsibility to please you, to make you happy and bring some inner light to you, positivity and hapiness for your ****ty life. This is not your daddy's company, this is a job like any other and not a time for fun and celebration, and that's why sometimes or often it's boring: a job is a job everywhere, any sector, that's why it's called "job" and not "party". You choosed your profession and career, nobody forced you to become a pilot right? You should know all these stuffs, how does commercial aviation and airline jobs works for Pilot's BEFORE you decided to become one... this talk all the time, to come here to complaint about how does things on EK works and how tough it is for you to cope with that is so infantile. Again: it isn't Emirates responsibility to make you happy, to bring some light for you life and to please you. It is your job, your homework to be happy with what you have in your hands and don't bother people around you with your insatisfaction and negativity. *I'm not a "local", i'm an expat being treated here better than in my homecountry.

I feel sorry for you Sala..thinking work should not be fun or enjoyable. What a sad outlook on life. I have got a new job (outside of aviation)...and it is fun, enjoyable and a celebration....in fact it IS almost a party everyday. When I was very very fortunate to be selected for my current position, on my first day at work, I was told by everyone...you are so lucky to get this job..we all love it here..its a lovely place to work.

And 4 months in..its true. Everyone is happy..everyone loves coming to work...the guy who is training me is 70 and says "there is no way i want to retire, I love this place". Management respect and futures the staff...there is a real feeling of 'family"....and the Company DOES see it as part of their job to keep us happy...happy staff mean happy outcomes for all.

Everyone has the right to come to work each day in a happy environment , unfortunatley, for many, that is not the case in EK.

And telling people they are wrong for expecting a nice place to work and having the expectation they may enjoy their job is simply a sad, sad outlook.

With attitude like yours..its no wonder EK is in the position it now finds itself...

[felixthecat]

Salama...you criticize and chastise people for venting their frustration about their airline and yet with the other side of your face you criticize and vent about your last airline.

Surely that comes over as hypocritical at the very least.

[The Outlaw]

... Bye!

The best post of his so far....

[6000PIC]

We should have let Saddam have Kuwait , the thankless lot they are. Even among their GCC colleagues , they are the most despised. Perhaps the least liked nation state in the world , other than N Korea , Zimbabwe and Syria. They could be a benevolent nation , but....

[ruserious]

Aw what a shame, your intellect will be missed

[The Outlaw]

I think recess was over and he had to go in...

[SOPS]

he is back in Costa..having a meeting about organising a meeting,,,

[salamalecom]

We should have let Saddam have Kuwait , the thankless lot they are. Even among their GCC colleagues , they are the most despised. Perhaps the least liked nation state in the world , other than N Korea , Zimbabwe and Syria. They could be a benevolent nation , but....

Totally Agree! Those stupid people are the shame of the Gulf.

[givemewings]

the other point Sala misses is that even if HR has decimated other industries, in 'most other industries' if you fcuk up, people don't die.

SOPS, I think we are in the same neck of the woods now. Congrats on the new gig. Any hints? :P

[etops777]

From the way this sala writes, I believed he is from S. America!

It won't be too difficult to track down this douche bag.

[zero/zero]

Totally Agree! Those stupid people are the shame of the Gulf.

Thought you were going?

[SOPS]

This guy cannot be for real.....can he?

[Dropp the Pilot]

There's an app for that:

This message is hidden because salamalecom is on your ignore list.

[GillEx737]

This guy cannot be for real.....can he?

Reality for him may be slightly different to reality for everyone else! Good for him if he's happy but happiness isn't generally what drives trolls.

[Che Xindamail]

Salamalecom, it always amuses me when male, non-pilot, airline management types like yourself, can’t contain their envy for the real men and women who actually fly the airplanes. Hilarious.

For you ‘managers’ out there, ask yourselves: On a normal day, what would be the worst that could happen if you suddenly die behind your desk? Worst case? Absolutely nothing. Would anybody even notice? Then ask yourself: On a normal day, what would be the worst that could happen if an operating Captain suddenly dies in the cockpit? Worst case? The aircraft crashes and everybody dies.

In short, society (in the interest of public safety) doesn’t care if you die at work. On the other hand, society (in the interest of public safety) cares a great deal if a pilot dies at work. Hence we are tested, scrutinized and poked before deemed fit for the responsibility we shoulder. How often is your capability to manage your desk tested?

Have a think about that as you make your way to the ladies room.

[fatbus]

Just leave the boy be, he will learn .

[Emma Royds]

Just ignore him - it's what he doesn't want anyway! :}

[Callsign Kilo]

ATPL theory is wayyyyyyy too easy