Commando Helicopter Force article

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Here (http://theaviationist.com/2016/02/21/rare-insight-into-royal-navy-chf/)

Sea King to Merlin....

[tucumseh]

The Sea King HC4 has done all that we have asked of it and never let us down.

Well said.

[satsuma]

I bet they wish it was Sea King to Chinook.

[airborne_artist]

And speaking to a Benson-based dark blue Merlin-er last night they don't really want to be at VL anymore either.

With the arrival of Wildcat it's an Army base with a token Naval presence. He reckoned it wouldn't stay under RN command for very long :*

[Evalu8ter]

Satsuma, under the SABR project it probably would have been a properly re-engineered CH-47 but that intellectual collossus G Brown pinched funding for helicopters (with little public dissent from VSOs) just before we became balls deep in a war where there was a paucity of capable rotorcraft....

But. A non-marinised CH-47 would be a nightmare for CHF. For all the Merlin's limitations, the Mk4 will at least be equipped for sustained maritime Ops. RAF Chinooks will deploy when the RM need heavy lift, but will never be a permanent fixture. At the moment most of CHF would probably have picked V-22 as the 'platform of choice'.

Back on thread - I thoroughly enjoyed working alongside the CHF and their Sea Kings from Bosnia to Afghan. Yes, it was slow, but it was a tough old bird and the crews have a real espirit de corps and I'm proud to call several of them friends. They will make Merlin work. I've also heard murmours of "best practice is spelled a,r,m,y" at Yeovs but having worked there the dark blue runs too deep to be overcome. Benson is a lovely station, and closer to London, so I'm not surprised the CHF have enjoyed their time there....

[wokky]

Benson is a great base in a lovely area, but it wasn't home for CHF and was never going to be. I'm sure there are some who would love to stay with the local hospitality and runs-ashore. However, the future is back at Yeovilton and the joys of Yeovile! Yeovilton will remain a Dark Blue Airfield, no matter how many of our Green compatriots arrive.

It would be interesting to know if the said Dark Blue Merlin guys you mention were old and bold or sprogs.

[Stitchbitch]

Bit of thread drift, but bear with me please. The AAC are at Yeovilton with Wildcat, traditionally the RAF have provided SE-Fitt support for AAC regiments, is this support now provided by the dark blue SE branch? :ooh:

[Bismark]

With the arrival of Wildcat it's an Army base with a token Naval presence. He reckoned it wouldn't stay under RN command for very long.

AA,

I would hardly call the RN presence at Yeovilton "token" as they far outnumber the Army and will do so well into the future. I am led to believe that the AAC are learning how inefficient their organisation is when compared directly to the FAA and I also understand the RAF had the same experience at Benson.

I also believe that the Army tried the "command" issue re Yeovilton and were firmly put back in their box by Adm Z.

[switch_on_lofty]

"I bet they wish it was Sea King to Chinook."
Rubbish. Since as Evalu8r said "A non-marinised CH-47..." there is NO marinised one.

"With the arrival of Wildcat it's an Army base with a token Naval presence. He reckoned it wouldn't stay under RN command for very long"
They reckon eh? Well that'll do it. More rubbish.

"The AAC are at Yeovilton with Wildcat, traditionally the RAF have provided SE-Fitt support for AAC regiments, is this support now provided by the dark blue SE branch?"
Don't know. But the AAC have put a lot of Wildcat aircraft maintenance out to civ contract, gratefully snapped up by mainly ex-RN AETs who want to stay in the area.

[Gwyn_ap_Nudd]

"But the AAC have put a lot of Wildcat aircraft maintenance out to civ contract, gratefully snapped up by mainly ex-RN AETs who want to stay in the area."

Something to do with a shortage of SQEP Army maintainers?

[Could be the last?]

Happy with the roles the RN will use the Wildcat for, but what exactly are the Army going to do with it?

[Stitchbitch]

Happy with the roles the RN will use the Wildcat for, but what exactly are the Army going to do with it?

Probably what they did with 7, 9 and 9A, small troop moves, ABFAC and anything else you can do with a fairly small cabin. As for lack of SQEP, I'd like to think the REME have that covered?

[satsuma]

"I bet they wish it was Sea King to Chinook."
Rubbish. Since as Evalu8r said "A non-marinised CH-47..." there is NO marinised one.

I bet it's not beyond the wit of man to make a marinised Chinook.

You're right though. What would be the benefit to the marines of being able to take multiple vehicles, cargo and a load of troops in one lift when you can do it in 2 or 3? Silly me.

[Tourist]

What would be the benefit to the marines of being able to take multiple vehicles, cargo and a load of troops in one lift when you can do it in 2 or 3? Silly me.

Have a think about it. I'm sure you will work it out.

[Davef68]

If you were buying new, you'd be better getting something already marinised, like the V-22 or CH-53 than spending £££££ adapting the Chinook. As it was, we didn't have enough ££££ for new, so we had to take what we had - and at least AW have marinised components for the Merlin.

[satsuma]

Sure thing Tourist. We all love a bit of inefficiency. It starts and finishes with the same letters as irony and idiocy.

[Tourist]

Not a military man, satsuma, are we...

[Tourist]

Start by asking yourself the question.

Why does the Blackhawk exist when they could just buy Chinooks and be more efficient?

[Evalu8ter]

Satsuma,
OK - let's bat off the insults. There's a number of simple reasons why a marinised CH-47 doesn't exist.

1. Money. It's not a simple feat to marinise an airframe that wasn't designed for it. At all. SABR would have fitted folding heads, bespoke naval kit and "wet" constructed the airframes. All of which costs a massive amount of money. If we only bought 15-20 you'd have to amortise the R&D over a pitifully small number of airframes bumping the unit cost up to a ridiculous amount unless you could convince other nations to buy it.

2. V-22. Boeing were not really interested in marinising the Chinook as there was always a fear it would do massive damage to export opportunities for the V-22.

3. USMC. They love Stallions and they were not going to change to a -47 based design. Hence the $Bns spent on the -53K which, at the last time I looked, had an estimated unit cost of $120M vice a CH-47F at $40m. See point one about money over small production runs......

I'm an ex-47 driver, I've flown off carriers and completed the RM Amphib Ops Planning Course. Without going into detail there are several good reasons why you don't want a single type in your TAG. A combination of Merlin and Chinook will serve the RM well - the Chinooks only embarking for exercises and Ops leaving the CHF to float around the world on a full time basis. You need the grunt of the Chinook for the heavier combat configured loads and, yes, you can do a double company lift with about a third the number of CH47s as Merlins but there are sometimes sound military reasons why you don't want to do that.

The answer to nearly every question that can be posed is "two chinooks" (joke!) but the Littoral is one area where the nuances suit a TAG much better. Plus, with Me4 embarked on a Phib or the CVF, if it kicks off the other side of the world and the ship is nearby, you're not going to get Chinooks there in a hurry.......

[satsuma]

A double riposte! You are excitable. I believe 'they' have more than one type available to them and therefore select the appropriate horse for the appropriate course. Some of those courses need heavy, bulky loads carried over a long distance.

Now please don't argue that your entire life is spent in the littoral and you only need do short hops.

[satsuma]

Now please don't argue that your entire life is spent in the littoral and you only need do short hops.

Oh! Somebody already has! You guys are great fun.

[Gwyn_ap_Nudd]

"As for lack of SQEP, I'd like to think the REME have that covered"

In terms of SQEP-ness I'm sure they do, but maybe an issue of not enough people (who are SQEP) hence the need to contract-out.

[pr00ne]

I thought that the RAF have always provided Safety Equipment sections for the AAC?

[Stitchbitch]

I thought that the RAF have always provided Safety Equipment sections for the AAC?

Traditionally they have, but with the move to VL I'm not so sure if it's still going on, which will be a shame. Working as part of a REME workshop was a great experience and gave a good 'insiders' perspective of how the Army view and use aviation.

[Faithless]

Squipper stuff now done by the Snr service! Ref maintenance of cabs yes there are contractors but that is the stop gap until the REME get enough through wastelands conversion courses. Remember it's a brand new aircraft so they say! It's all about single type & base operations regardless of the service. The Government seem to think it will save money. Yeovilton is and always be HMS whatever it's called and the Army has never challenged that. There is a loyal bond with the FAA & AAC but like all relationships there will always be teething problems when you move in together initially, just ask my Mrs.