R44 Cadet

[HeliHenri]

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New version of the R44 approaching ? : HeliHub Robinson working on new R44 model (http://helihub.com/2015/11/12/robinson-working-on-new-r44-model/)

P.S : 6300 R44 produced to date ! :ooh:
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[maddmatt]

Yep - its a new head version, apparently semi rigid 3 blades and improved performance.

[500e]

Lets hope they work on the blade design build quality as well :E

[HeliHenri]

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Robinson's customers can say thanks to Bruno Guimbal and his G4 ;)

More seriously, seems strange that Kurt Robinson goes for a three blades' rotor. How can he sells the two blades R22 and R66 alongside ?

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[heli1]

Someone winding you up?!

[Spunk]

Diesel engine or R44 with turbine?

[aa777888]

Yep - its a new head version, apparently semi rigid 3 blades and improved performance.

Seriously? That would be cool...

[blakmax]

500e said Lets hope they work on the blade design build quality as well

It may surprise many, but I have had some intelligence about the -7 blades, and I can tell you that the design dramatically increases the bond overlap length for the skin-to-spar joint which is a significant advantage. They also have adopted surface preparation processes which I would have recommended if given the chance. They actually listened to my comments, and I give them credit for that.

The issue of the stress concentration at the trailing edge is not within my field of expertise so I leave that to others. The issue of one blade which disbonded after a short service life may be attributed to a one-off contamination (bare thumb in wrong place?) issue which should be addressed by closer QC.

While I still remain concerned about the integrity of the earlier blades, I am now more confident in the processes used in current builds. So, I am sure that they have addressed many bonding issues, so I would be less concerned about future developments such as these new designs.

Regards

Blakmax

[givdrvr]

Thats very good news on blade design..I've been sitting on a new order waiting for some intel like this. Of course, now I've got to wait and see what Kurt has up his sleeve.

[misterbonkers]

The 'new' model of the R44 has SAS on it hence the serial number change. An aquaintance of mine flew it on Friday and was most impressed. And it's not got three blades.

[heli1]

Not exactly new then. Hasn't SAS been under test for some time.?

[CRAN]

SAS has been a factory option on the R44 since August 2015.

I had heard rumours that a heavy version of the R66 was in the works with a three blade rotor system and a great hook-load capacity...

I wouldn't be surprised if a 3-bladed version appeared but it would need some significant structural reworking.

There is a new Diesel engine in the 300hp range on the horizon in the next year or so from one of the big US engine companies so I wouldn't be surprised if the R44 Delta makes an appearance with three blades, turbo-diesel power and a price between the Raven 2 and the 66.

All exciting stuff. Thank goodness for some competition at last.

CRAN

[givdrvr]

3 blades, a baggage compartment, and Garmin glass would be sweet!

[HeliHenri]

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And here is the new R44 :

"Paddy is attending this week’s Robinson Safety Course at the factory in Torrance, and says that Kurt Robinson was on hand to introduce the course. As part of his introduction, the new R44 model was mentioned, and it will be “a 2 seater R44, 200lbs lighter, a lower VNE of 110 knots and cheaper than a Raven I“."

From the very well informed (as usual) HeliHub : HeliHub More details revealed of NEW Robinson R44 model (http://helihub.com/2015/11/17/more-details-revealed-of-new-robinson-r44-model/)
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[Arnie Madsen]

Will they call it R33

[maddmatt]

Can't help but think what a waste of time this is, a 2 seater R44... Surely they should be evolving the airframe not bastardising it?

Maybe Robinson has had its day, G2 very popular, G4 on the design board... who knows?

[FLY 7]

Surely it's the intended replacement for the R22.


The R22 was never actually designed to be a trainer, and it would make economic sense for Robinson to rationalise their models.

[chalmondleigh]

Do take a look at the HeliHub link. Jeremy comes up with some interesting analysis.

A smaller 4 cylinder engine and priced between the R22 and the Raven 1 which is currently only $90,000 more than the R22 at $375,000.

However you slice it, a 2 seat R44 is still a 1970s design.

[helicopter-redeye]

1970's in what way? Furry dice? :eek:

Mike Smith (the Heliair one) made a mint selling low spec R44's to new pilots for years. This would just be Robinson Corp doing the same thing on an industrial scale, and making sure their product was on the flight line of as many flight schools as the R22 used to be.

As a manufacturing and commercial strategy - good move I'd say.

[Aluminium Mallard]

http://robinsonheli.com/media/pressrelease/robinson_introduces_r44_cadet.pdf

[CRAN]

I actually think this is a really astute move.

People have long called the R44 'a really good two-seater', two normal size people, full fuel and bags and off you go at 105kts.

It appears that they are about to make the R44 a really good two-seater! Although this will be a good training helicopter, if they can hold the price at R22 levels (including the overhaul), then they have a brilliant entry-level personal helicopter.

Kurt, if you are listening...drive the price down and this will sell like hot cakes without real competition.

Nice job,
CRAN
:ok:

[GS-Alpha]

I think this is pretty exciting news - some serious competition for the G2 I'd say. I doubt Robinson have been selling many helicopters for the training market of late and this is not a bad way of getting back in the game.

I agree CRAN; R22 price point and I'll have one.

[DonQuixote23]

From a manufacturing Point of view, how is this two-seater cheaper than the normal R44? Same Engine etc. An extra two seats and seat belts can't make much difference. Why not just reduce the price of the Raven 1?


Also, any information on what the reduced power does for maintenance?

[CRAN]

I think it is because they believe or are targeting a different kind on person to buy a Cadet over a Raven 1.

Therefore, in order to justify the existing price of the R44 Raven they need a tangible reduction in 'value' to justify the lower price of the new machine. i.e. less seats, less power, less MTOW...less of a machine. That way those that have been happily paying the premium to buy an entry-level 4-seat personal helicopter or light commercial helicopter can keep paying it, whereas flight schools and typical 'R22' private owners can have a cadet at a justifiably lower price (and lower margin for Robinson)...but production volumes and efficiencies go up.

Of course one problem that the R44 will faces as a training helicopter outside of the US is the addition fuel price. £60/hr (90USD) in an R22, but £100/hr (150USD) for a typical R44. Though this is not really a significant issue for private owners.

I agree with GS, if they hit the R22 price and can offer R22 level pricing for the overhaul (and 12-year inspection for those that don't fly off the hours), I would buy one tomorrow.

CRAN
:ok:

[HeliHenri]

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Hello CRAN,

Don't you think you bury the R22 a little bit quickly ? ;)

The Cadet can well stand , in term of specs and price, between the R22 and the R44 I

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[FullTravelFree]

Should be called the R33 then

[CRAN]

Henri,

Fair point.

My first experience of flight in a helicopter as a boy was in the R22, my first 30min trial lesson at Tiger helicopters was in an R22 and I learned to fly in an R22. I have a soft spot for the R22...

However, it's MGW is simply too low. The fact is whenever or whatever (other than cattle mustering solo) you do in a R22 you will be at MGW. At MGW it has a modest power to weight ratio and is too slow in all conditions. You can't put two normal people in an r22, fill the tanks and go somewhere with a suitcase. Therefore as a personal helicopter it fails the basic functionality test. To make matters worse, these days it is ridiculously expensive to purchase and overhaul.

My view is that a 2-seat personal helicopter/ ab-initial trainer needs to be 750kg, with 300kg useful load and sold for no more than £135K ($200k).

Power that with the Lycoming IO-390 (210hp), derated to 172hp with some sensible aerodynamics and you'll have a machine that will lift vertically at 500ft/min at MGW up to around 5000ft, cruise at 100kts+ and carry two 90kg people 3hrs of fuel and a 20kg suitcase. That's an entry-level personal helicopter.

Make it pretty and you would sell 200-400 machines a year.

This would be a better alternative to the R44 cadet, but its a lot more hassle than a 'reduced margin' R44.

Perhaps I'll just build one for myself and stick some Garmin glass in it while I'm at it! ;)

All the best,
CRAN

[HeliHenri]

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You're right CRAN (I know that you master the subject :))

I'm saying that the R22 has a small market and is not dead yet !

When you're talking about cattle mustering, do you know that in the last years, half of all the new R22 sold went to Australia for that type of operations ?
Best Regards
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[John R81]

Isn't this the R42? The 4 series but with 2 seats.


Might be cheaper to buy a used Raven 1 and take the back seats out. I don't really see that as an advance :sad:

[Bellrider]

Robinson will never do the same mistake and will create a new name ( like R33, OR R42)
If they had called the R66 not R66 but R44 turbine or R44+.....,
Robinson hasn't had so much trouble to entry the EASA market! Creating a new maschine makes much more trouble than upgrade a old one

[Bellrider]

Robinson will never do the same mistake and will create a new name ( like R33, OR R42)
If they had called the R66 not R66 but R44 turbine or R44+.....,
Robinson hasn't had so much trouble to entry the EASA market! Creating a new maschine makes much more trouble than upgrade a old one

......or downgrade in this case

[Thomas coupling]

Will it still have one of those dynamo's that spring load onto the rotating rotor head shaft, thus producing electricity for its anti cols? (Like those push bike affairs we all had if we were posh with a Raleigh?

[Paul Cantrell]

I actually think this is a really astute move.

People have long called the R44 'a really good two-seater', two normal size people, full fuel and bags and off you go at 105kts.

It appears that they are about to make the R44 a really good two-seater! Although this will be a good training helicopter, if they can hold the price at R22 levels (including the overhaul), then they have a brilliant entry-level personal helicopter.

Kurt, if you are listening...drive the price down and this will sell like hot cakes without real competition.


From a manufacturing Point of view, how is this two-seater cheaper than the normal R44? Same Engine etc. An extra two seats and seat belts can't make much difference. Why not just reduce the price of the Raven 1?
Also, any information on what the reduced power does for maintenance?


It will be very interesting to see how this plays out. Our flight school operates R44s exclusively, and they make a very good trainer. They also work out well in that once people are licensed they really enjoy being able to rent a 4 place aircraft. Also, the rear seats work out very well for commercial work including survey, photography, and tours. All in all, the R44 is a very capable machine, and I really think a much better trainer than the R22.

That said, I'm not sure how Robinson can offer this at anywhere near the R22 price point, and even if they could, as someone else mentioned, the operating cost of the R44 is certainly higher than the R22 so there's still an expense in operating an R44 vs an R22.

My question is why would an operator buy the Cadet unless the price point is substantially lower than a Raven 1? They give up all the operational flexibility of having the back seats, and I'm not sure the derated engine getting you better high/hot performance in a trainer is really all that useful (I've flown a Raven 1 through the high country around Tahoe and Salt Lake City and frankly even with a bunch of photo/video gear on board and full fuel we had plenty of performance).

I suppose it's probably a pretty low cost option for Robinson to offer, and I'm sure they must have had interest from their customers, but frankly I don't see how it makes economic sense to purchase a Cadet versus a Raven 1...

[GS-Alpha]

but frankly I don't see how it makes economic sense to purchase a Cadet versus a Raven 1...
Is it possible to draw that conclusion when we do not yet know how much it is going to cost? What is their reason for producing this aircraft? Is it because they want to end production of the R22? There will be savings associated with that. Is it is because they want to present some very serious competition for Gumbal? That may be a very compelling reason to offer the aircraft particularly cheaply or to subsidise the overhaul costs. If Guimbal manage to get their G4 off the ground, Robinson 44 sales will be very seriously effected. By removing the rear seats, they are preventing loss of sales of their Raven I to any of their customers who need the rear seats for the versatility you have mentioned, and so they can offer it at a significantly lower price. A cheap two seater R44 with lots of luggage space would be a very attractive alternative for a prospective Cabri G2 customer.

[mickjoebill]

Looks like C of G would be similar?

If front seats could be moved back a few inches we could "balance" a cineflex on the nose:)


Mickjoebill

[jymil]

Base price of an R22 is 285.000 USD vs 375.000 for a Raven I. So the gap between the two is not that big. But I am not sure removing two seats will reduce much of the price. On the other hand, the stricter limitations might lead to lower operation costs. Another benefit here in europe would be the lower cost of only having to aquire and maintain one type rating for the R44.

[3top]

.....just goes to show what a Raven I COULD be sold for!

As it is - probably "just" a Raven underneath!

And as usual, I assume, the engine down-rating is done only on paper (and the MP-dial). Well, if they actually have a REAL muffler now, that one would take a little bit away, but at the end - it's probably the usual R-fair: "Power is limited to..., but if you need it, don't hesitate to use it all!"

With the 200lb reduction and the lower engine rating, I see a TBO extension in the future of this one....some 200 hrs more?!!

So, now you have
- the R22 for two lite-weights for training
- the R44-two seater for the heavy-weights for training (and getting the student hooked on the 44 - "go and buy a I or II !!"
- the R44 for the students that got hooked on it with the two-seater
- the R66 for the economically not challenged....


Cheers,

thjakits :cool:

[chopper2004]

Looking forward to seeing it in a week at Heli Expo,

Robinson now accepting orders for new R44 Cadet helicopter | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry (http://www.verticalmag.com/news/article/Robinson-now-accepting-orders-for-new-R44-Cadet-helicopter)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger028/284118262818083_zpsnvxihilr.jpg

(photo courtesy of VerticalMag - Skip Robinson)

When it heads over to this side of the pond thus certified by EASA, it be interesting to see the costs in the UK

At the moment -it is
- $351,400 USD with optional Garmin GTN625 GPS
-Direct Operating Cost Per Hour is $102.80 USD
-Total Operating Cost Per Hour is $203.34 USD

cheers

[chalmondleigh]

Interesting to look at RHC website regarding purchase price and running costs of the Cadet in relation to the R22 and the Raven 1.

Not unexpectedly the list price is roughly midway between R22 and Raven 1 but take a look at the running costs. "14gph @ $5.50per gallon". That works out at less that £1/litre and it is a long time since I paid that in the UK. Using the factory figures and an average UK Avgas price expect somewhere in the region of £90/hr in fuel.
Overhaul costs for the Cadet are similar to Raven 1 but spread over 2400 hours rather than 2200 so a saving there providing that you fly at least 200hrs per year.
No doubt that the Cadet will find its own market slot.

[Freewheel]

I wonder what the numbers will be on that new Enstrom?


Especially now that it's passed it's crash test.....:}

[chopper2004]

Here are my photos of the R44 Cadet from a few weeks ago at Heli Expo 2016,

cheers

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger052/IMG_8011_zps7mlacknf.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger053/IMG_8563_zpszaeaxist.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger053/IMG_8571_zpsctkfglni.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger052/IMG_8005_zpszxwo1yef.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger052/IMG_8012_zpsjdqpkdod.jpg

[HeliHenri]

Thanks chopper2004,

Have you got some pics of the back ? that's the most interesting part of the Cadet ;)

At the front, I can see an Aspen EFD, an Ipad on the left side and a Garmin Gps on the right side, not bad.

[helicopter-redeye]

Does anybody have any idea why Robinson won't sell the Power Bar components as aftersales parts?

[Ian Corrigible]

Have you got some pics of the back ? that's the most interesting part of the Cadet ;)
Henri,

From Vertical Magazine's (http://vertical.reisinformations.netdna-cdn.com/digital_issue/2016/v15i1/files/2.html) recent feature on the type (click for une version plus grande):

http://i.imgur.com/VxPlr7Y.png (http://i.imgur.com/xBjB9xT.jpg)

I/C

[HeliHenri]

Merci I/C :)

[HeliHenri]

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The Cadet is now FAA certified, basic price is 339,000 $ ( from HeliHub.com : HeliHub FAA certifies Robinson R44 Cadet (http://helihub.com/2016/05/10/faa-certifies-robinson-r44-cadet/))
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[Spunk]

That's slightly below 300.000 € / about 10 % less than a Cabri. Right?

[Maff]

Based on my experience of buying a new Cabri recently, the Cadet and Cabri are pretty much identical in price based on today's exchange rate.

[HeliHenri]

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The first two Cadet are going to OZ : VH-CLX and VH-LCH
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[Vertical Freedom]

Ugly & Dangerous :yuk:

[HeliHenri]

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Hello VF,

We have already discussed this subject but it's a fact, your countrymen prefer (and by far) the R22 and now the cadet to the G2, they have their reasons.
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[Vertical Freedom]

Hey HeliHenry.....Yep; post crashes fires, Delaminations, Air-frame failures are obviously ignored :{ & the Almighty dollar$ rule: safety & lives don't :ugh:

[SuperF]

How long before someone produces an STC to add two seats to the back of a cadet?

[Spunk]

SuperF, that's not going to happen. With the bureaucrats the STC will be more expensive than buying a new R44 Raven II

[krypton_john]

It's a bit different down here in NZ... you can just write your own STC and DIY!

Stop, I'm kidding!

I said stop!

[chalmondleigh]

HeliHub.com Robinson R44 Cadet sales are very disappointing (http://helihub.com/2016/10/21/robinson-r44-cadet-sales-are-very-disappointing/)

[CRAN]

It's a very simple problem; it's too expensive and too close in price to a new raven 1 or a newly rebuilt raven 1 or 2. In this context why would you buy one?

It's price seems to have been set to compete with the cabri, but the cabri itself is ridiculously expensive. Great product, but designed with scant regard for cost.

Robinson gets a great price on its engines from lycoming and the airframes are inexpensive to manufacture, they can afford to make this machine much cheaper.

If they price it at $250K they will sell at least 200 units per year and hurt cabri production.

It seems to that since the 2007 crash Robinson production (and others) has never really recovered. My view is that their annual above inflation price increases have finally pushed their products out of reach of the customer demographic that the business was built on.

When the R22 was introduced it cost less (in relative terms) than I paid for my Range Rover....

Come on Kurt, price it intelligently and you can have an order for serial number 30012 tomorrow!

[aa777888]

Old school +1 to what CRAN said.

As someone who is actively in the market for a 44 right now, it might be, however, that the price point for new 44's could be just about right. As a primarily recreational flyer I'm looking for a partner. Two people I've approached so far and both of them only want a brand new machine with glass and seem happy to pay the price. Both have walked away from a couple of smoking deals on some fresh overhauls, each sold in under two weeks.

I really would prefer at least one partner as it simply doesn't make financial sense otherwise (well, it doesn't make financial sense, period, but you know what I mean ;)). But the demographic is tough around here. Most non-career types who are in a financial position to obtain their helicopter rating apparently have enough money to just go out and buy a spankin' new ship.

[GS-Alpha]

It's price seems to have been set to compete with the cabri, but the cabri itself is ridiculously expensive.
I agree. I've got a very good income and no mortgage or any other form of dept, but I can't justify the expense of a two seat helicopter. The super-rich are not interested in a two seat piston and the only other people who can afford them are training schools or group owners. I think group owners prefer to go for the 4 seats and the schools are definitely prefering the Cabri at the moment. It is easy to see why the Cadet is struggling at its current price point.

[CRAN]

I recall a comment from Bruno Guimbal a year or so ago, when he said:

"The market appears to be trust sensitive, rather than price sensitive..."

IMHO this is a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of the facts...his machine is priced ABOVE the part of the market that is price sensitive! His clients are flying schools that lease machines and work them hard, or very wealthy individuals. The VAST majority of private pilots and would-be owners cannot afford anything like the price of a new R22, R44C, R44R1 or R44R2 or Cabri. These machines have all drifted in the realm of the very-wealthy which is a MUCH smaller market.

Then there is the 12-year depreciation issue for private owners and the blade issues and the corrosion issue if you live anywhere other than a desert!

R22 was introduced in 1979 with a base price of $40,000, that's $133,018.18 in todays dollars according to Inflation Calculator | Find US Dollar's Value from 1913-2016 (http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/). (Actual list price today is $288,000, more than double!)

When the R22 was introduced at the original price point they were selling 500 per year and couldn't build them fast enough!

At less than $150K we are into performance car money and there is a market for 100,000's of those per year and lots of professional and small business owners are willing to spend that kind of money. If you then look at today's price of the R44 Cadet we are talking about $339,000, that's supercar money...now just 10% of those performance car buyers can afford your product. Of course if you then build-in an expensive fixed 12-year, rather than 2000-hr overhaul requirement then you have huge running costs also). Its all just drifted out of reach for Robinson's original target market.

If Robinson want to see a return of their volume production they need to reconnect with their customer base. Not only has the cost of purchasing their machine moved out of reach of their target market, the running costs for private owners has massively increased due to the escalating cost of overhaul.

I think Robinson is at risk of 'slipping onto the backside of the financial power curve'. Their products have been pushed up in price gradually over the last 30 years gradually alienating their 'true' client base. Since the 2007 financial crash this has resulted in a major slow down in demand, which in turn increases the effective cost of production...now its difficult to drop the price to stimulate demand...and so on.

If you drift into the realm were cost doesn't really matter to your customers, then they'll just buy the best...how will the R44 and R66 stack up against a Guimabl G4, which will doubtless be pretty, crashworthy, 3-bladed and quiet.

Of course Monsieur Guimbal may also choose to exploit the fact that the Lycoming O-540-F1B5 used in the Raven 1 is actually approved for automotive fuel so the fuel cost of your four seat helicopter outside of the USA could be reduced by up to 40%! Why Robinson hasn't sorted this out is also completely beyond me.

Just my 2p worth!

[chopper2004]

First one in Europe is now in the hands of Austrian operator - Hubifly

HUBI-FLY Helikopter Rundflüge, Charter, Pilotenausbildung und Service Wien, Bad Vöslau: HUBI-FLY Helikopter Rundflüge, Charter, Pilotenausbildung und Service Wien, Bad Vöslau: Aktuelles & Presse (http://www.hubifly.at/news/aktuelles-presse/)

[Flying Binghi]

Via CRAN: ...At less than $150K we are into performance car money and there is a market for 100,000's of those per year and lots of professional and small business owners are willing to spend that kind of money...

As others have suggested, perhaps its time for a Chinese or Indian company to buy the rights to the tried and true Hughes 300 (and later derivatives) and produce a cheap Helicopter. Useless Sit-Orsky ain't doing much with it..:hmm:






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[HeliHenri]

Only 11 Cadet built in the first 6 months of the year, that's not a lot.
And at the same time, 20 R22 built, that's more than the full last year !

[CRAN]

It's simply too expensive! There is nowhere near a big enough differential between the Cadet and Raven 1.

[aa777888]

Dumbest idea, ever. The Cadet does make me wish the rear seats were removable in the Raven for occasional bulk cargo, though.

[HeliHenri]

First quarter 2018 :

01 R44 Cadet delivered
14 R22 delivered

Not much to add isn't it ?
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[r22butters]

First quarter 2018 :

01 R44 Cadet delivered
14 R22 delivered

Not much to add isn't it ?
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Yeah, the Cadet is the Robinson version of the Cabri. Let's make training more expensive,...great idea!

[Freewheel]

Yeah, the Cadet is the Robinson version of the Cabri. Let's make training more expensive,...great idea!


Theres nothing safer, lower operational cost or more robust about a Cadet.....

[Bell_ringer]

Better off buying a standard Raven 1, at least the school can use it for other purposes such as hire and fly etc.
The Cabri is a superior aircraft in almost every way compared to the 22 and while it may cost more, the long term maintenance due to on condition parts will make it more cost effective to operate than the initial cost alone would indicate.
(Provided it makes the hours before a student forgets how the tail works)