Does anyone have anything positive to say about EK?

[Sallytraffic]

Euro LCC FO approaching command and considering move.

I have a few concerns and would be grateful if people in the know could answer a few questions.....

Leave - I know Im not going to get the 42 days, but will I be able to get a few blocks off to give me the chance to get away with the family? Can you sell the days back to the company, or will they keep rolling over until they are eventually lost?

School Fee's - is it really going to cost me roughly a months wages per child per year to top up the allowance and pay transport, food etc?

Command - with the amount of guys coming and leaving, expansion, and the lack of DEC's getting in, it looks like the seniority number will go up pretty quick. What's a realistic time to command?

Travel - Load factors are high and I hear it can be a problem using id90's, is this the case or is staff travel still a perk worth considering? Is it straight forward enough to get family out to visit and not have to pay an arm and a leg?


At my current employer I pay for everything; licence, medical, sim, hotels, travel, uniform, food, water, coffee.
On the other hand I have a decent and predictable roster and generally know where I stand with the company.

On paper it looks like a good move, but as soon as you come on here and read the negatives it seems a crazy move.

There must be guys out there happy with their lot, pleased they made the move from the Euro LCC rot?
Surely it can't be that the Euro LCC's are becoming a desirable place to work?!

So back to the original question.... Does anyone have anything positive to say about EK?!

Many Thanks

[Alloy]

Yes, I came from a similar European position as yourself but with a command, I looked at EK and decided on reflection to avoid it like the plague - one of the best of a few sensible career moves I've made in hindsight!

[777boyindubai]

EK Management are positively liars.

You will positively have your contract changed to the negative.

You will positively not be able to take EK to court in the UAE as EK is not subject to the Legal System.

You positively will pay a months' salary to supplement each child's education. If you can get a place in their year group in a good school.

You will positively pay a fortune for groceries, particularly fresh fruit.

Please don't say that there are no positives at EK. There are plenty.

[donpizmeov]

Sally you have asked these questions before, and they were answered for you. Perhaps you didn't like those answers. So here goes....

Come on over, the weather is great and the aircraft are shiny. There will be lashings of lemonade for everybody when the work day is over. The 2000 FOs on the seniority list, that will be in front of you, will part ways to ensure you upgrade quickly.

I do hope this helps.

[Praise Jebus]

I was once given oven mitts....They were quite nice actually.

[Rotating Bacon]

I never got the mitts, for that and many other reasons I resigned, I wished I would have done it earlier

[Iznogood]

don, that's exactly what we want to hear from you guys :) Unfortunately pros seem to be largely insignificant compared to cons. All of you gave us enough good food for thought

[Sallytraffic]

Thanks for the responses guys...

Don - Trying to be as diligent as possible, unfortunately I don't know many people out there so have to use this as a means to gather as much info as possible.

I have asked questions, however didn't receive answers to a few of them.

Did you say Free lemonade?!

[falconeasydriver]

Yes there are plenty of positives, my little girl got a "positive" result whilst I was there to an exotic and supposedly eradicated lung disease thanks to the many many undocumented and untested individuals there.

[The Outlaw]

Don't forget, we got to keep our old shiny wings when EK went with the poorly made, dull made in China ones.

That was due the sheer goodness and generosity of TCAS....yeah...those were the good ol' days :hmm:

[OnceBitten]

I got to shorten my notice period, that was a positive! :ok:

[Trader]

Sally - I will try to answer them completely and honestly.

Leave - it is difficult to get blocks off during any of the school holidays since, surprise, they are popular dates. Peak leave (defined as July/Aug and Christmas Break) should be obtainable every second year. You will only get ONE of the 2 periods not both. So year 1 you will have no peak leave and possibly get a block over the kids school holiday (though don't count on it). Year 2, theoretically, you should be able to get summer or Christmas leave. For some reason, it does not always work and I know people who have gone 2 years or more without peak leave.

Personally, this is a HUGE pet peave of mine. We work like dogs and then can't even get time off to do even small family trips. When the kids are really young you can pull them out of school but beyond about the age of 9 or 10 that becomes impossible.

School Fees - most schools are in the 70,000 dhm/year range. You will pay 10% of the fee/child up to the max (which I believe is in the mid 60's at the moment) and then the entire amount beyond that. Children under 4 are not paid for at all which may be an issue in some schools where there are waiting lists and you lose your spot if waiting till age 5.

Transport is now rolled into school fees so if you schools fees are below the cap transport (bus from a certified company only) will be covered up to that cap.

SO, go look at the school fees online, check out EK's exact max coverage, and figure out how much you will pay extra for your family.

Command - if the captains leaving continues to increase they will find the DEC's they need or bring back the accelerated command. If you are an FO with no jet command I would count on not less than 7 years till command. We have just shy of 4000 pilots. That will need to double for you to upgrade!! Less any attrition. If you come here expecting less you may well be in for severe disappointment.

Travel-- like most airlines this benefit is up and down. First class and biz class travel is nice and I am appreciative of the fact that we can sometimes enjoy it!! If you can get the time off and the loads allow, traveling in a premium cabin with your family is a FANTASTIC perk.

Loads are high though during peak periods (school holidays) so you have to be prepared to pay full fare or get caught out. For family, if they are retired and can miss a few flights there should be no issue.

Unfortunately, with the lack of leave, lack of leave when I can use it and heavy loads we can't really vacation that much. One trip per year is all we can usually arrange. Or the odd weekend getaway.

You know the first year pay. You can easily calculate school costs based on your family. If you track your families expenditures now, especially food, you can online with your wife and looks at Spinnys, Carrefour or any of the online delivery companies and calculate your families food costs.

An FO takes home roughly 22,000 dhms/month when flying. A family of 4 food costs will be a minimum of 5000 dhms a month. School activities, sports etc are all extra costs and not cheap at all!! Set up costs after the move mean the first year will not save a penny. After that it will be very tight. Several friends who are FO's - one manages to save about 4000dms/month but they live within their means and are careful. The other all say they don't save anywhere near that.

It is all very personal. Seen many wives (and pilots to be fair) come here buy TWO new vehicles, big screen TV's etc. and start living the high life expat lifestyle. Reality sets in a year or two later when income just matches payments, there is no money being saved, no money for island getaways.....................

You have all the info you need to sit down with your wife and calculate your living costs here. Just do it carefully and be honest. Make sure you BOTH have the same expectations on the move here!! Heard a few wives comment that their husbands made them move here so they expected the 'nice' things in live to be fully provided.

[SOPS]

Sally, Emirates will sell to you that you are coming to a glorious expat life style. Basically your not. You are coming to a life that is completely controlled by Emirates. Think about this before you make a move. What Emirates sell you at the recruitment interviews, and what the truth is, is very different.

[QCM]

Everyday,lots of positive climbs,gear up....

[Macrohard]

I was given a grand total of 7 days off this month!
Positively better than 6 ...

[fatbus]

I recommend you read and read again what trader said. Very well done trader.

[DCS99]

I wish I'd spoken to Trader four years ago...

[updown]

Trader where did you get 22,000 take home a month from?

The base is 25, 450 + 50/hr. Lets say 90 hours/month = 29, 950/month

What am I missing here?

[Trader]

Ya, my mis-typed that one--meant to say around 25,000 take home after deductions.

[lospilotos]

Trader where did you get 22,000 take home a month from?

The base is 25, 450 + 50/hr. Lets say 90 hours/month = 29, 950/month

What am I missing here?

You are correct, more or less. Just don't forget Provident Fund contribution of 5% taken off. It's a volunteer programme I know and you're paying yourself, but it's less spendable each month.

[eduelp]

I'll focus it from a different point of view:

Sallytraffic, as someone who was in your same position some time ago: There is nothing I regret more in my life than having turned down (other) opportunities of leaving your very same current employer.

[The Range]

Sally, get your command. Get 1000 hrs PIC, then think about it.

[VLS with ice]

Eh, let me think,......no.

[Fearless Leader]

Emphatic NO!!

(Am I being too subtle?)

[Sallytraffic]

Many thanks for the responses guys.

Lots of food for thought

[Xulu]

SallyTraffic check your pm's

[WhiteFly]

Sally I am mostly just a lurker here to read the occasional rumor and whatnot...

I also came from a LCC from europe with the absolute min requirements and got my command on the fatbus in less than 5 years.
It all depends on where you come from and what you had before the jump to the desert. The senior guys have seen deteriorations so are quite grumpy while most new guys I fly with are happy atleast on the fatbus.

You will fly over 900 hours a year and on average 10 days a month if not more.
I cant speak for the 777 or the littlebus were things are much worse.

If I had to decide now to come again I still would come no questions asked..
Nothings perfect but its much better than 6 days turnarounds 2 days off and 7days turnarounds 1 day off that i had before :)
Once you fly ULR operations there is no going back!

Also one thing you should consider that the happy guys even possibly a minority like most ppl will say here dont bother with pprune and have better things to do with their time.

[Fellowship of the drink]

At least someone here is happy....

Whatever your choice is, choose wisely. Take into consideration why people are grumpy and vent here. I hope it works out for you.

[Odins Raven]

Sally I am mostly just a lurker here to read the occasional rumor and whatnot...

I also came from a LCC from europe with the absolute min requirements and got my command on the fatbus in less than 5 years.
It all depends on where you come from and what you had before the jump to the desert. The senior guys have seen deteriorations so are quite grumpy while most new guys I fly with are happy atleast on the fatbus.

You will fly over 900 hours a year and on average 10 days a month if not more.
I cant speak for the 777 or the littlebus were things are much worse.

If I had to decide now to come again I still would come no questions asked..
Nothings perfect but its much better than 6 days turnarounds 2 days off and 7days turnarounds 1 day off that i had before :)
Once you fly ULR operations there is no going back!

Also one thing you should consider that the happy guys even possibly a minority like most ppl will say here dont bother with pprune and have better things to do with their time.

I'm not a negative person in general and when I got my command at the 3 year mark I was generally happy...

By the 5 year mark I began to realise that Dubai was not a good place for the family (have a young boy who was 3 at that time).

By the 7 year mark I was totally disillusioned with the rat-race lifestyle of Dubai and was very lucky to be offered a left seat in a successful loco at home base in the UK. A little less money but such a healthier lifestyle and nicer workplace atmosphere. And my family life has improved so much.

Would I recommend EK to anyone there days? To a young, single FO I would say YES, see the world and enjoy the EK girls. For a more experienced family guy or a current captain? NO, not these days. Don't take the family out when it will be a one-way ticket. So difficult in our rarefied profession to get back to your job/base of choice especially if you're left-seat...

[alwayzinit]

In short, No.
I take absolutely no pleasure in the pronouncement at all but from my seat, lhs 777, that is the case.
I was hoping to make EK my final airline before hanging up my wings. It still may be but only in the sense that EK has destroyed my enthusiasm for a career I loved.
The work patterns and hours flown mean EK are operating in an area of the unknown. No other long haul operator flies its crews so much and minimizes recovery time.
We used to get 4 days off after a ULR trip, we needed it then, we do now, but only get 2 off now.
The OM-A states that the Company will avoid the 18-30 hr rest period whenever possible, yet all our European layovers are 24 hrs+/-, even when there are multiple aircraft to the destination each day.
Salary has not come even close to keeping pace with local inflation which makes life far less fun all round.
To add to this many of us have been forced to relocate into undeveloped desert suburbs, living cheek by jowl with our company colleagues. Many not being able to choose in which "hutch" we must reside.
The option to move out from Company accom is there but not without digging deep into an already stretched salary to get something half decent.
The 9th floor regime has taken what was without doubt the best expat job in the region and possibly the world, and nickel and dimed it, so that now the experience level, in hours. on the flight decks has halved, and is getting lower by the day as those at the top decide QOL and a frugal retirement is preferable to dying early.
For youngsters who want to come, come and see if you don't believe what you read on Pprune, but have an out before you do.

[ezy6543]

I can't agree more with what Trader said! But for me the killer was seeing a great colleague going through hell recently. His 5 year old kid died in a tragic incident at a "respected" sports camp here in Dubai. Their story pulled me out of that Dubai "bubble" I was living in.
He and his wife have been treated really poorly by the authorities! No respect, no empathy, left in the dark and basically left on their own to handle the situation, which they still bravely and silently do to honour their kid. Silently because we all know what happens here to people opening their mouths and telling the truth.
I was pleasantly surprised to hear from them that they got a lot of support from EK. At least a positive and humane action from the company.

My point is that this place is being portrayed as the safest place on earth, the place to be, but it's far from that. When the **** really hits the fan, believe me and I've seen it, you're on your own! This place is overpriced, overrated, posh on the surface but underneath that so underdeveloped, and not safe at all!

EK isn't great but it could be worse. But just stay the hell out of this country! It's the best thing you can do to yourself and especially your family. If you're working for a Europe LCC, please get your command and stay there! You'll be far better off there then down here!
I'm doing something I should have done a long time ago, packing my bags and leave this godforsaken place.

[V1cutz]

Something positive about EK? The only positive thing about this circus is the leaving process. The smoothest and most efficient process ever experienced in this place. But I'm sure they have the process down to an art.

[Sallytraffic]

Some really interesting views, cheers everyone for responding.

Ezy - that sounds horrendous, terrible where ever you are but to have to deal with a backwards social system / prehistoric authorities makes it even more stressful.

My mind is pretty much made up now, after much careful consideration I think a thousand or so command hours are extremely valuable as a back up plan to get out if it doesn't work out.

Thanks once again to the kind chaps who took the time to PM and post on here.

Cheers

[Pilot_Recruit]

Sally,

I got my thousand hours as a back up and now I'm using them. It was better than where I was, but no where near what they sold us. A polished turd is the best way to describe it. Get those command hours as a back up. Absolutely.

[A320CaptDav]

Anybody giving up an opportunity to go left seat in their own airline to come to EK must be insane. All the pilots that have come with command experience know they have still have a lifeline in their pocket

P.S. Except those with fake licenses logbooks and experience , EK is their only lifeline

[Versace]

Sally,

I've only been with EK under a year... "Regret" is the main word I use coming here. I left a good life in Australia, I thought EK was the "Bee's Knees" and I would be living the dream in Dubai... Far Far from it... I wished I had joined PPrune before joining Emirates, because what you read from 90% of these guys is the truth. I'm leaving EK shortly to go to QF. Do yourself a favour and don't move to Dubai. :ok:

Versace

[Twiglet1]

Alwaysinit
The 18-30 rest period was a copy n past extract from CAP371. This was aimed at UK Charter Airlines flying many moons ago UK to initially Orlando day time come back 24 hours later at night. At this time there was only mickey mouse or gospel channels to watch on telly.
Nowadays with the advent of FRMS things have changed a little and the science has moved towards recommending crews to stay as close as possible to their local timezone. This does require a high level of dedication at 0400 US local waiting for breakfast etc. In the case of many flights that EK operate night / day the 18-30 hour rest period is spot on. Short sleep when you arrive, get up , then local nights sleep Dubai time, get up fly home all scientifically validated.
Problem is not all trips are like this and a ULR to Miami and waiting for hours to deplane clear immigration blah blah or ones where its down to one sleep etc are pushing crews to limits never dreamt when Douglas Bader started talking FTL.

[fatbus]

Good post Twiglet1 , factual !

[A.phlegm.med]

Sally, make sure you chose wise. Better ask some of your ex colleagues that fly with EK now. Their experience would be more valuable to you.

We all know that the situation is not the best.. BUT that is not an excuse to humanise the enemy (LCC).

[halas]

Versace is having a gap year from QF.

Has job waiting in a legacy carrier.

Bit different to those giving up everything to move to the ME with no certainty of a job on return if they don't like it.

halas

[alwayzinit]

Ref Twiglet 18-30 hrs rest period avoidance.
I hear what you are saying ref cat naps etc , however, the stated goal of avoiding 18-30 hr rests is in the OM-A, our legal bible and the big stick used to thwack any "naughty" pilot.
If EK believe that the 18-30 hr rests are all OK and don't fatigue unduly, why is this goal still in the OM-A? Or can we now pick and choose which bits we must obey?
It is all about consistency from my point of view and historically EK has been consistent only in bending it's own rules and using us as guinea pigs.
My own experience, some 39 years, tells me that 18-30 rests absolutely kill me regardless of what anyone says.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Entirely agree with you alwayzinit.

I thought EK had a stab at adressing this issue as a trial on the MNL flights where you got either a very short (14 hours) or a very long (30+ hours) layover, which meant that one sleep was enough on the short layover and two could be achieved on the longer layover.

We have enough daily services to most destinations to make this viable do we not?

[donpizmeov]

The layover timings for LHR were changed like that several years ago when still on the 777. It didn't last long as the crews complained.

[alwayzinit]

Had the Bookies been offering odds on EK choosing the shorter of the 2 options................................... SV, as I understand it from a buddy there, plan 30+ hr layovers as do most other longhaul operators, as a minimum.
EK have one critical problem which is lack of pilots to fly their ever expanding program. Without pilots EVERYTHING else is mute.
They are getting enough in at the bottom, according to recruitment, but failing to retain those evaporating from the top( at one per day I hear) so essentially all that is happening is the number stays the same +/- but the level of experience on the Flt Deck continues to descend.
Trust, once lost, is very difficult to recover, however, the 9th floor seem to think that it is our fault, posting here, that have caused the problem.
They conveniently forget that when we were content and fairly treated we were their best recruiting tool.

[harry the cod]

For what it's worth, the actually loss averaged 19 per month in the last 12 months, give or take. Not quite 1 per day but pretty dire nonetheless. This does include retirements as well as those looking for greener pastures. Current recruitment is just about reaching the desired numbers but that's without accounting for the departing. With the net requirement for 60-65 new hires per month, (14-16 each week), 20-25% of that resource is walking out the door....and with it often years of experience.

It would be a best guess to say that we may well see our first parked aircraft towards the end of this year.

Harry

[Dropp the Pilot]

Most pilots being of the "belt-and-braces" nature, I would imagine many would time their resignation to ensure that they receive the profit share should some miracle occur this year.

The soonest you can resign and get profit share in accordance with historical practice is February 26th. It would be interesting to observe the resignation numbers in the first days of March, if one had access....

[glofish]

It would be a best guess to say that we may well see our first parked aircraft towards the end of this year.

Well, name it any way you want, but counting in the order of 5 to 7 fatboys on the other side of DXB (mostly more than 10% of the total fleet), it raises the question of either some serious maintenance issues, or lack of jockeys ....

So basically we don't have to wait until the end of the year!

[Jolly Foreigner]

Does my leaving and exit process was painless count?

:ok:

[Yossarian]

I take note of the talk of lack of crew and the parking area full of unused aircraft, but can anyone give us definitive and factual information regarding cancelled flights on established routes? Surely that is the marker we're looking for. I'm yet to experience or hear of a flight that's been cancelled. Anyone else have any other info?

[Instant Hooligan]

https://aviability.com/flight-number/flight-ek797-emirates

EK797 operates Tues, Weds, Fri, Sun

Didn't operate Tuesday the 9th, Lack of crew?? who knows

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAE797

[TangoUniform]

Panama maybe?

[Kapitanleutnant]

Not with that flight number TU. THE 700'S are mostly African flights if not mistaken ....

K

[The.Humble.Guy]

>> google.com

>> type in EK 797

>> Result: DXB - DKR

"VOILA!"

[Batman777]

Kap

I think TU was replying to Yoss's question and not ek797.

:ok:

[Fearless Leader]

Oh yes and also congratulations for making the Chief Pilot Boeing do 60 hours flying in February - he finally has admitted that if he is flying this much then we are short of pilots!! :D

More than that worthless Prig on the AirBus does

[Sallytraffic]

Could anyone give me a breakdown of the hidden costs associated with a move to ek?

I read on another post that you could expect to be out of pocket following the move, however with the car loan, furnishing allowance and school fees covered I'm wondering where the costs are coming from other than paying for internet to be connected and other small bits and bobs....

I'm also looking at a job not too far away and they don't seem to provide any assistance other than flying your family out and offering you a loan.

Cheers

[Trader]

Car loan is 70,000 dhms. So it will depend on what you buy.

Take a look at the furnishing allowance and then go online and see what you can get! If you are buying new it will cover a fridge, stove, washer and dryer and a few other things. If you are single and in an apartment that might work. Family and a house--you will be out of pocket. Buy used on dubizzle and check the major company websites for costs. You can figure out how much it will cost you quite easily.

I would say for the average family, even with the allowances, you will be out of pocket and as an FO you will not save any money the first year. This of course all depends on what and how you buy. One car, cheap furnishings (or used) etc and you will make out OK.

My experience, watching new joiners, is they show up bright eyed, buy all the newest stuff, big TV, 2 cars - trying to make sure the family is happy. Good plan if that is what it takes! But it is expensive.

[CamelRustler]

What Trader said.


We bought a used car, and one kid was in the "You pay for it." school year. I figure it was about 3.5 years until we were at a break even to move back home. One car and company housing. It is the little things. Curtains, garden, etc., that added up. Food is pricey about 2-3 times what we spent in US. With a 5 year bond you now have to include that cost if you decide you don't like it here. The thing here is they are killing us with the schedules. I mean it. They have been for years. You are giving up your health coming here. It will get worse not better. Welcome aboard though. Best of luck. The Staff Mart and dubizzle.com are good. Filter the stuff to include expat communities only and you should find almost everything you need in good shape. Lucky's in Sharja is good for wood furniture.

[Calmcavok]

I'd disagree about the furnishing allowance. It depends on how simple your tastes are. We furnished a 3 bed apartment from Ikea plus white goods & tv from Carrefour and still had money left over. If you want to go to Marina or Crate & Barrel etc. you'd struggle to furnish a 2 bed. Dubizzle & Luckys both good resources as well.

Note of caution, a common misconception amongst new joiners is that the company car loan can be used as a deposit on a flash motor. Not the case as that is explicitly prohibited.

[josesilvajs]

Note of caution, a common misconception amongst new joiners is that the company car loan can be used as a deposit on a flash motor. Not the case as that is explicitly prohibited.

So how does it work? Let's say I want to buy a car for 100.000 Dhs. The 70.000 will be discounted from my sallary and the other 30.000 I'd have to pay at once when buying it? The 70.000 loan that EK provides is not a deposit? So how one should use it when buying the car?

[lospilotos]

So how does it work? Let's say I want to buy a car for 100.000 Dhs. The 70.000 will be discounted from my sallary and the other 30.000 I'd have to pay at once when buying it? The 70.000 loan that EK provides is not a deposit? So how one should use it when buying the car?

I think what the other poster ment was thay you cannot buy a car for 200.000, take the loan to pay 70.000 and get financing from the bank for the rest. You can however use the 70.000 to pay part of the car but you need to pay the rest in cash somehow. This is how it works:

1. You make a deal with the seller, an individual or a dealer. Write up an agreement.
2. Fill in the application form for the car loan and hand that over with the sale agreement and car evaluation report from the seller.
3. Emirates will then issue a cheque in the name of the seller.

[Tiotes massive head]

I used the Emirates loan as a deposit and personal loan for the rest. It can be done.

[Aluminium shuffler]

It can be done with a personal loan, but the regs say only one car loan for a car because of the legal issues if you default on a loan - if you have two loans on one item, then it becomes very muddy who then owns it.

The company car loan is the best rate, but you won't get much for it, and a lot of people buy new because checking the service and accident history is not as easy, the heat and dust degrade cars quickly and a lot of cars are abused or neglected. Most of the garage staff are shockingly bad at their jobs; there's no way I'd trust them with any significant repairs.

[TangoUniform]

And be careful of a "certified" used car from a dealer. Have a friend who did that and found out later the car had been severely damaged in an accident. When getting new tyres, he was asked when the car was damaged, due to the fact they couldn't align the steering because the frame was bent. This was from a big dealership.