German Pilot Union has an open ear

[in freedom]

Just when I thought that nobody cared about the issues we discuss here it seems that I have found the platform many of us have been looking for. I have shared my story and evidence with the German Pilot Union "Vereinigung Cockpit". They have an open ear for such complaints and understand the situation very well. I think this could be a game changer and I encourage you to contact them. They are offering secure and confidential reporting for issues at airlines where legal relief is not available. You can also send them evidence or volunteer as a witness with whatever level of anonymity you are comfortable with. They will only use what you agree to and will not share your identity. Vereinigung Cockpit e.V. :*Report (http://www.vcockpit.de/en/report.html)

Vereinigung Cockpit is the association of airline pilots and flight engineers in Germany. Today, it has approximately 9600 cockpit crew members from all German airlines (even during their training) as well as commercial helicopter pilots. The fundamental objectives of VC are to contribute to the welfare of civil aviation as well as to ensure and pursue the interests of its members regarding professional and collective bargaining policies. Among other things, they achieve this by influencing legislation and informing the public about the professional, sociopolitical and economic situation of cockpit crews. They are very reasonable people but also pack a punch. In the past 2 years they have gone on 13 strikes against Lufthansa and been all over the media.

NEEDLESS TO SAY THAT YOU SHOULDN'T EMAIL THEM FROM INSIDE THE UAE !!!

[Talparc]

Just registered with pprune after reading for years of shocking facts of the fading TOC.
Finally we get an authority to listen to all our problems here in the pit.
Maybe we can get thinks moving to the better side from here.
Thanks to Infreedom!

[in freedom]

To those of you who enjoyed reading the WSJ article last year while sitting in their comfy deck chairs and munching the tasty popcorn: Please understand that change is not going to come your way by itself. These things take hard work. If you want to help Emirates find the right direction you will have to make them bow to public opinion. If they can spend money on showering Jennifer Aniston they can also spend money on well rested pilots. The platform offered to you in this thread is a big gun but it needs your ammunition.

no input = no output = no change

The platform itself is safe. Emailing from inside the UAE is not. I think most of you spend more time outside Dubai anyway. Especially if you have already chosen retirement which seems to be a trend this year.

[harry the cod]

in freedom

Your wunderbar union may be a bit busy over the next few months dealing with issues closer to home. Air Berlin pilots are facing a pay cut of around 10% with a possible freeze for 2017 too. 'No comment' was the unions response when pushed by the press as to why they weren't doing more to protect 'their' pilots income and livelihood.

If they've had to undertake 13 strikes in 2 years, I fail to see how effective they're going to be when they can't even make it work on home turf....and that's with the flag carrier too!

Harry

[White none please]

You have a better idea Harry?

[harry the cod]

Yes. Use our own confidential reporting system would be a start. Why anyone would send off information about their current employer without first trying all available means internally is beyond me, regardless of being in the ME.

If the Company was inundated with hundreds of these reports, it might make management sit up and take note. The fact that the numbers received are probably minute reflects on the general apathy amongst most pilots. The usual suspects will retort that the system can't be trusted but I doubt for one minute they've even used it.

Harry

[glofish]

Not a very good idea, harry.

I have submitted a confidential report once and have subsequently been contacted by the company to explain.

This is not a rant!

It is to show, that there is no such thing as confidentiality in this region. Therefore i have to assume, that there is no consequence to anything that does not please the company.

Maybe i am too pessimistic, but experience marks.

[Tiotes massive head]

A confidential isn't an anonymous report. It just means they won't go round showing your colleagues what you said.

[harry the cod]

Glo

I'm going to call you on that claim. The only way it's ever likely to have happened is if the report itself contained names of individuals involved in the event/concern. Then you may well have got a call to provide further information if your name was actually referred to in the report.

However, I can assure you 100% that any report submitted is treated with utmost confidentiality with only 1 facilitator (Capt RC on B777) having access to the reporters details. Only the de identified report itself goes to Flight Safety and is then investigated. At no time will any other party have access to your personal details. Unless other reports have also been submitted for the same event, for example an ASR, then it remains confidential throughout! If you submit a Confidential Safety Report, you, the reporter, will only be providing your details to one individual within this Company. It remains with him and nobody else. He's not part of the management team.

So, with all due respect, making that claim as you do merely discredits the process. I've used it before and wish more people did. It may not have got the immediate results I desired, but it remained confidential throughout, that I can assure you!

Harry

[in freedom]

Harry,

thanks for weighing in. I agree that in an ideal world there would be many other ways to change the current issues. But you have been there long enough to understand the realities of the place. The reactions are very predictable.

I take the check-in time scam as an example. It was reported to all affected agencies including the GCAA. Anyone could read it in the WSJ. But the company and the government deliberately chose to continue as before - only trying to hide the truth a little more. Sure, there is a business case. If only a single-digit percentage of flights were affected by proper recording of actual check-in that would be hundreds of millions in revenue lost. And that case is as black and white as it gets. No grey area for opinions or misunderstandings.

The company's reaction to the more personal issues of rest patterns, leave, sickness and off days have also been very clear for everybody to see.

So the only way that the company will put the pilots' wellbeing above revenue will be if it affects revenue. If the travelling public in Europe and the US and the political decision makers understand that the shiny sky bar has dead tired drivers then EK may have to start investing in your smiles instead of Jennifer's.

I don't know a better organization than the battle-hardened colleagues of Vereinigung Cockpit to bring on that fight. Writing to management sure as hell didn't help in my case. Believe me I tried.

Greetings from Germany

[harry the cod]

in freedom

I don't disagree with your points for one minute. The suggestion you've made is one out of frustration due to lack of progress and any avenue in which concerns can be highlighted is welcome. I just doubt that a German pilots union will have much sympathy for our 'plight'. Volvo door to door, no driving our own car, no parking, no walking through a terminal to report, no evidence that we're required to report -83. What does the OMA say?

Let's stick with this as an example. The often quoted example of report times on these forums is a valid one. However, why does everyone insist on having to brief the crew 83 minutes before? Where is that written? How is it legal to be undertaking any duty required by the Company when 'not on duty'? If I have an 'official' report time around 0610 with the previous day being OFF, by having to brief the crew at 0547 would be violating that D/O. I simply refuse to do it. There are a minority of Captains who also refuse to and request through the FDM separate transport from the CC.

This would be an example of where the Confidential Reporting system could be used. If only 40 pilots out of the 4000 wrote a report and highlighted this discrepancy, what would be the Companies response? At least you'd have it in writing.

As I said before, almost everyone accepts it because....almost everyone accepts it! There's apathy in not using the system to our advantage. The CSR would be a great tool to help in this example.

Harry

[in freedom]

Harry

I agree with you that it's a shame how 4,000 pilots just follow a process that is clearly outside the books. Yes, CSRs would be great. But isn't their ultimate purpose to make the company and regulatory authority aware of an issue without endangering the individual? In the case of the check-in there is no doubt about their awareness. They do it on purpose.

As for the Pilot Union's empathy I can assure you that it's there. I have talked to them in person about my case and the general issues. They have also been contacted by other German colleagues. I say give it a try.

[BigGeordie]

I have used the Confidential Reporting System and believe in it 100%. I would be very happy to use it again. However, I have also sent an e-mail to the safety department which I (foolishly) believed would be confidential. A couple of days later I got hauled into the office (by Ed) because AAR had not liked the tone of my correspondence. It had not been addressed to him, or copied to anybody outside the safety department.

There are reporting systems in place but be very careful which one you use.

[Talparc]

It looks like that the reporting system is not a very efficent tool.
In our case we need to bring all the issues to a higher authority in order to get things addressed and eventually corrected.
The German Pilot Union was kind enough to give those problems a bigger forum and will bring our cases and problems to other GCAAs.
Problems consist of:
violation of Duty and Check in Times
non punitive reporting system but still pilots get warnings for reporting incidents
Crew Factor of 7 vs 11 for other regulated Long Haul Carriers
Pilots beeing punished and further beeing pushed into sickness
Sickdays beeing punished with illegal warnings
Pilots threatened for what ever decision they take
Not granting leave according contract
overtime stolen from crew
Paying only sticktime
creating a unhealthy environment and further reducing safety margins
reducing air safety with all these behaviour

If you wana go on with all this bs go ahead and stopp complaining here
or just take the initiative and try to bring our issues to a higher level and see what can be achieved.

[glofish]

Harry

I honor your effort and belief in the system.

However, consider this:

Many events that would be suited for confidential reporting have to be reported via ASR as well, according to our books, or they will be detected through the safety team..
Now there is a choice, as ASRs or "stars" on the FR are not confidential at EK!
They are elsewhere and for a good reason, namely to enhance safety!!
If you report stuff like that confidentially, you get called because you can be identified.
This basically devalues the CRs at EK.

If a CR is submitted, quite often persons can be identified simply by the nature of the CR, even if no direct names were mentioned.
As you admit yourself, in such cases you or the other person can be de-identified and called.
This devalues the CRs again.

Confidential reports are not reduced to the CRS within EK. There is another channel going to the GCAA.
Try that channel and see how fast a copy lands in the bounty castle for confirmation. Sure enough without names, but as clear as Vodka to enable identifying the origin.

Again, i trust you mean well and you might even believe in it.
I definitely do not.

[falconeasydriver]

Harry, whilst I am sure you have faith in the CR system at EK, in my time I did not, it was another piece of the puzzle that ensured I resigned.
Without going into specifics, somehow information included only in the CR I filed found its way onto the desk of the individual who caused the problem. Needless to say this individual is in possession of the correct passport and is also a person that was able to influence various decision makers.
The upshot of all of this was less than ideal for me, and I was at that point living on borrowed time as far as EK is concerned.
Harry when I spoke to the individual who runs the CR programme I had complete faith that he was above reproach, he did however concede that there is nothing he could do should someone wish to go after a person or persons who embarrassed the wrong decision maker.

[notapilot15]

Harry,

Your opening jab at Air Berlin suggests you don't like a bit about this whole thing.

Like I said unless ICAO adds "Employee Representation" section to USOAP Safety Audits, audits and ratings are irrelevant.

Bluntly put your suggestion about internal reporting is like saying a domestic violence victim should report to spouse to resolve issues. Never works.

Employees thinking about complaining outside the regulatory regime speaks volumes, needs lot of retrospection.

[Talparc]

Notapilot,

I totally agree what you say.

More and more colleges are now in touch with ICAO and filled a formal complaint exactly on these issues.

This could create further discussion about installing a safety rating for all other airlines.

Times will be tougher for airlines violating flight safety and pushing their Pilots over the limits.

Even the public is nowadays more sensitive to those issues than just believing in shiny advertising billboards.

[Talparc]

Quote:
Employees thinking about complaining outside the regulatory regime speaks volumes, needs lot of retrospection

Totally right but how can you expect a regulatory regime to be independent if the CEO of this authority at the same time is CEO of the airline to be regulated?

Suggestions?

[harry the cod]

notapilot15

I don't think your analogy is a valid one but either way, we will agree to disagree on this. Three points I would like to raise however in relation to some other posts;

Firstly, the Confidential Reporting System in EK does not replace the ASR system. It's role is unique and completely separate to the mandated Air Safety Reports.

Secondly, the GCAA system, although claimed to be confidential, has it's limitations. Further more, I don't know who at the GCAA receives it. At least in EK, we do. That at least brings accountability on the part of the facilitator charged with handling the reports and that of the Company. We are required to have such a system in place and it has to be robust and workable. I believe it is. Which leads me to the last point.

falconeasydriver has had a negative experience of the system. As Big Geordie has stated, we need to be careful what reports we use and what we include in them. I don't disagree that certain individuals could make life an issue which is why I'd recommend contacting the CSR facilitator before hand to discuss available options if the report is of a sensitive nature. That advice would be the same in any airline around the World, wouldn't it?

However, the issues that we're discussing on this thread are not of an individual nature but relate to safety concerns overall. It is the trend within the Company and it's culture that needs addressing and it's these very issues that the CSR system is designed for. Whether the Company chooses to take action or ignore these issues is for them to decide. We, however, must still pass on this information to ensure they're accountable for their actions, not us held accountable for inaction or failure to report.

As for your comment Talparc about my opinion of the German union, my thoughts are that they have other issues closer to home that they should, and probably will, concentrate on. If people in EK wish to contact them and use it as an avenue to voice their concerns, so be it. I've always believed that you should never air your dirty laundry in public or with unknown entities unless you have exhausted all other internal possibilities first. And for the record, and the umpteenth time, our Chairman IS NOT the Chairman of the GCAA. He's chairman of the CAA which are the owners of Dubai airport, not the regulatory authority of the airline.

Still, Im not naive enough to believe that the actual chairman of the GCAA is not connected in some way or another with him and is thus 'influenced' with rules and protocols that are applied to EK and others!

Harry

[Talparc]

Quote:

never air your dirty laundry in public or with unknown entities unless you have exhausted all other internal possibilities first

Harry,

agreed!

but

after 12 years nothing has changed except it got worse, so I consider all internal possibilities as exhaused.

For sure its not to do dirty laundry in public but more to sharpen the public view on our problems.

I believe it is our responsibility to finally get things moving and to improve flight safety.
We owe it to our passengers.

[glofish]

I disagree with Harry on the CR issue, but he's right in not believing in any help from the VC.

They fight for their T&Cs and jobs, to a lesser extent for safety. Any ammunition is most welcome, especially against the ME3, as they consider them the biggest threat to the above.

Now if we provide arguments to curtail the ME3 business and they would subsequently lay off pilots, would any of you think that the VC would accept stranded pilots from the pit as DEFO or DECs?

No way.
So think hard before you feed them.

[OBOGS]

Thinking that you can play a foreign union for your advantage on this - omg...

Lenin's "useful idiots" (said about the western communist sympathisers working for the Russians' benefit) springs into mind.

Be very careful out there, chaps.

[Emma Royds]

A German Pilot Union will quite rightly have the interests of their own members far above the interests of pilots that work for a Middle Eastern airline that is viewed as a strong competitor.

Vereinigung Cockpit have been staunchly opposed to the new 'lower cost' longhaul operation that Lufthansa has launched with A340s to destinations such as MRU, MLE, MAA and funnily enough soon to PTY as well. Such routes were deemed to be not traditionally feasible and required a lower cost base, yet Emirates has been operating successfully to MRU,MLR and MAA for years. Lufthansa will be codesharing to and from PTY with Copa, just as Emirates will be doing.

I would love to be proved wrong but if Vereinigung Cockpit is offering an open ear to the complaints of EK pilots, I feel it is being done not with our interests at heart.

[in freedom]

Glofish

you have a valid point. Of course it is much better for Emirates' business if they can continue to operate without proper regulatory oversight. But I don't think it is better for you as pilots. They have been continuously lowering the crew factor which now stands at about 7. Lufthansa long-haul has a crew factor of 10, Air France of 11.

Now if you imagine that Vereinigung Cockpit succeed in getting out the truth about this Emirates will be forced to raise the crew factor to a similar level. Legal rostering, flight safety and crew health would demand that. In my opinion Emirates can afford to do that. They have only been testing your limits because they can. The general advantage of a great product for the passengers and a convenient network hub would remain. If they were forced to raise the crew level to 10 that would be an additional 1,670 pilots today. I am sure they can get that number if all of you get back a decent lifestyle, tell your friends and post it here.

Or you can all keep quiet and help them increase your workload even more. You should then also follow TCAS' advice and not tell the truth on pprune anymore. After all that is what keeps newjoiners from coming - not the management decisions EK made ;-)

[in freedom]

To Harry: while the Chairman of Emirates is not the Head of the GCAA he does sit on the Board of Directors.

https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/pages/boardofdirectors.aspx

[Talparc]

1201alarm

I totally agree what you say.

Some guys just cannot think out of the box:
VC is internationally very well linked to all kind of Regulators and Agencies as well as Media.
e.g. IFALPA,CAA,EASA,ICAO,Flight Safety Organisation,FAA just to name a few.
So its about spreading the word of what is going on.
Better than complaining here on Pprune! Right?
Name me a better Organisation who can do the job.

We as line Pilots will hardly be heared by those high ranking institutions.

[Birdstrike737]

It is high time for ECA-backed unions to circumnavigate the inept ECA. There is an emergency going on in Europe, the fire warning bell is sounding, and the ECA is still fumbling around looking for the checklist!! I attach the following to illustrate the point:

http://youtu.be/PaOe_LVEF6M

http://youtu.be/KeCP338AOKM

http://youtu.be/vlmI10qjRds


...they may have a bit of humour to make them more digestible, but the point is absolutely serious!

[notapilot15]

Talparc
I meant airline management and regulator should retrospect their past actions.

Harry
If I may refer to my analogy, at some point spouse has to call that hotline.

in freedom
I am not sure how the western CAAs overlooked conflict of interest issues in ME, while they are pounding India, Indonesia and Thailand on the same. I suppose huge plane orders has to do something.

[JAARule]

Harry do try to keep up! The DCAA handed over to the DAC last decade. That's the problem with turning to pprune for "experts"!


As for "dirty laundry," air it as much as you like. It's not your dirty laundry, it's the company's dirty laundry and you should have no need to feel any shame or protect the company from their own shame.

[harry the cod]

JAARule

Almost 2 pages in without personal attacks.....let's keep it that way, shall we?

You know full well the intent of my post. The DCAA is still alive and kicking. All it's done is provide an offshoot called the DAC to run both DXB and DWC. The GCAA is a different entity altogether. The former organisation has HH as it's chairman, the latter doesn't. That was the point I was making. People often get confused between the two. I wasn't one of them. If you want to be facetious, JetBlast is the best forum for that.

As for the dirty laundry, our views will differ. My main angst is against those that constantly bleat on a public forum without first exhausting all possibilities from within. Frustrating it may be but at least there is a chance for change through highlighting various concerns. With reports, change may occur. Without reports, change will definitely not take place!

If you've followed the process and got nowhere, then you have the right to vent.

Harry

[SOPS]

But the GCAA has is HH on the board, do they not, Harry?

[harry the cod]

Yes they do. He's also probably on the board of many Companies in Dubai. My response was to Talparc who thought he was the CEO of both Emirates Airlines and the regulatory body, the GCAA. He's not. And for what it's worth, the title is Chairman, not CEO.

I also said that I wasn't naive enough to assume he would not be influential in some way or another. Clear?

Harry

[Kapitanleutnant]

Will the coming EASA rules make some of those changes for the better or not?

Kap

[Emma Royds]

If I was a Lufthansa pilot then I would be nothing short of frustrated to see the union that I have financially contributed towards and supported over the years, now offering its assistance towards pilots based in the Middle East, so that their conditions can be improved when my own are at stake. Unions in Europe are finding it increasingly tougher to keep their members happy, which has been manifested in the recent industrial action with Lufthansa.

Vereinigung Cockpit doesn't have our interests as EK pilots at heart and quite rightly so, as a union should look after its own members first and foremost. Should they be willing to listen to our grievances, then it can only be to give them leverage in helping to slow or halt further EK expansion in Germany, which seems to have ground to a halt anyway. Lufthansa don't want us growing in Germany and neither do the Air Berlin/'Airline Down the Road' partnership either. That alone makes a powerful force within Germany.

If Vereinigung Cockpit was willing to listen to us and then used this 'ammunition' to discredit EK by whitewashing the company through the German press and/or by lobbying at a high level to prevent further EK expansion in Germany, then it is 'mission successful' as far as they are concerned. We would achieve next to nothing in the process.

I would love to see change in EK but I am a realist and getting cosy with a union in Germany is not the step we need to be making. Hard times are ahead in Dubai with petrol subsidies gone and sales tax coming. I personally am expecting nothing more than the contractual step to this years pay review in a few months. The public purse is being stretched in Dubai and I suspect any reasonable pay rise for us will be vetoed by the Sheikhs, as it apparently was last year. 2016 shall be interesting!

[DCS99]

Miss Royds is spot on.
2016 will heat up for sure...

[Talparc]

1202alarm:

fantastic post!!!


Some people just don't get it!

Sorry but arguing about a job title doesn't help us here.
We need a change, the faster the better!

Time is ticking and it looks like it's 5min past allready.

Or you wana watch the daily fading scenario of your QOL, Health, ToC?

Beeing honored with all kind of illegal warnings for the rest of your career.

Beeing forced to perform illegal Check in -Duty Times, using all kind of illegal variations and still be forced to use pilot discretion.

Doing 100h, falling asleep on short final while dreaming of your not granted leave.

Good Luck

Emma Royds:

This initiative was not set up by VC to harm any airline.

It was started by responsible actual and former colleagues of yours who want a change!

[Gillegan]

If I was a Lufthansa pilot then I would be nothing short of frustrated to see the union that I have financially contributed towards and supported over the years, now offering its assistance towards pilots based in the Middle East, so that their conditions can be improved when my own are at stake. Unions in Europe are finding it increasingly tougher to keep their members happy, which has been manifested in the recent industrial action with Lufthansa.

Vereinigung Cockpit doesn't have our interests as EK pilots at heart and quite rightly so, as a union should look after its own members first and foremost. Should they be willing to listen to our grievances, then it can only be to give them leverage in helping to slow or halt further EK expansion in Germany, which seems to have ground to a halt anyway. Lufthansa don't want us growing in Germany and neither do the Air Berlin/'Airline Down the Road' partnership either. That alone makes a powerful force within Germany.

If Vereinigung Cockpit was willing to listen to us and then used this 'ammunition' to discredit EK by whitewashing the company through the German press and/or by lobbying at a high level to prevent further EK expansion in Germany, then it is 'mission successful' as far as they are concerned. We would achieve next to nothing in the process.

I would love to see change in EK but I am a realist and getting cosy with a union in Germany is not the step we need to be making. Hard times are ahead in Dubai with petrol subsidies gone and sales tax coming. I personally am expecting nothing more than the contractual step to this years pay review in a few months. The public purse is being stretched in Dubai and I suspect any reasonable pay rise for us will be vetoed by the Sheikhs, as it apparently was last year. 2016 shall be interesting!


Emma,
While I would agree with you that Vereinigung Cockpit's motives may be a bit suspect, I would also point out that Emirates has gotten so big and influential in the industry that they are in effect "setting the bar" regarding employment practices, specifically for aircrew. I've often wondered why the world's legacy carriers, while quick to criticize EK for their commercial practices, have been relatively silent about EK's personnel practices (and to a lesser extent the free pass they seem to enjoy from their regulator) when the resulting productivity is surely a competitive advantage. Is it in the hope that they may one day enjoy approval for some of the same things (no leave, flight time factoring and unaccounted duty time to name a few)? I'm just speculating here but perhaps someone at Vereinigung Cockpit has realized that if something isn't done about these kinds of things, that they will soon be facing the prospect of some or all these practices on their properties.

[nolimitholdem]

Brilliant post Gillegan.

There are no aspirations to make EK into a place worth working at such as the legacy carriers, it is exactly as you state: the BA's and Lufty management look wistfully at the way EK drives their workforce into the ground and wish they could do the same.

I for one welcome one and all bedfellows no matter how strange, to try and fight back against the sociopaths currently running the show at EK.

Meanwhile the harry's tut tut about airing dirty laundry. The stakes are so far beyond that now it's amusing to see any concern about such trivialities.

Stranger alliances have been formed. I would gladly tell ANY party about the goings on at EK but the hardest part might be getting them to be believed. Witness the wannabes on this forum alone.

[falconeasydriver]

Nolimit, whilst I now have no horse in this derby, I agree with you whole heartedly. Whats worth reminding everyone is that the current bunch of dumbkoffs at EK have no incentive to improve things, and if true, they are being actively discouraged from even considering improvements.
Remember there is a culture of fear even amongst the management mafia as well as the view that flightcrew are overpaid primadonas' who are to be ruthlessly exploited and dispised.
I often get PM's from people asking me if the stories on here are accurate, I always tell them the same thing, I tell them no, I tell them its worse and that the reason its worse is that most pilots despite their moans are a positive and enlightened bunch who are generally optimistic. I then go on to say that in EKs case this has mostly gone, that there is no goodwill anymore and that its worse, its worse because by the time they get there after ignoring all the good honest accurate advice, it will be.

[in freedom]

Some of you believe the current system can change from within.

Some of you are afraid of mean spirited German colleagues. They would rather stick with the owners' proven humanitarian love for their labourers and the managerial integrity of the English middle management.

None of you have denied a need for change.

I believe that a hollow shell of a regulatory body is not acceptable. It hurts us as individuals. It hurts competition. It destroys our profession. It fools the passengers. That's the point we made to VC. They understand and want to help because it is also in the interest of any airline pilot.

[Talparc]

infreedom:

I totally agree what you say!

Just remember that since the WSJ Article nothing has changed. So thats why more pressure is now needed to get things rolling.

Regulatory Affairs just sent an email to ops to remove the check in timeline.
While the timeline is still present on the screens in the briefing rooms!:D

Looks like most Pilots are not aware that they knowingly violate the law on every flight.

[notapilot15]

Unions helping management to take down a competitor!!! Plausible theory but with so much bad blood between EU unions and airlines, they being bed fellows, highly unlikely.

We know that ME3 have long reach and able restrict freedom of speech in the west and on the internet, we also know governments cannot help in current situation, so IMHO a union like VC is best suited to help or at least to gather information and get the big picture.

All world has right now is lot of rumors, actively being discounted by well funded overactive PR.

[Talparc]

Just got to know about some more shocking facts how our Training Department is operated and controlled by fleet.

Guys getting warning letters for having failed a PPC which was never failed, when the warnings are questioned fleet answers ' Its considered an internal fail'

Instructors beeing punished for giving too good grades.

Students get all kind of warnings during their training.

poorly conducted line Checks by TRE/TRI

So there is more stuff to be undisclosed!

[g-code]

Just got to know about some more shocking facts how our Training Department is operated and controlled by fleet.

Guys getting warning letters for having failed a PPC which was never failed, when the warnings are questioned fleet answers ' Its considered an internal fail'

Instructors beeing punished for giving too good grades.

Students get all kind of warnings during their training.

poorly conducted line Checks by TRE/TRI

So there is more stuff to be undisclosed!

Jesus. I have been lurking on these forums for a while and work for one of the "big 3" in the US. The stuff I read on here is shocking. Hope for better days for you guys.

[harry the cod]

Talparc

Pilots come under the control of fleet. Fleet set the rules and set the requirements for the training department to undertake on their behalf. Training therefore provides a service for which fleet is in effect the 'customer'.

Your post contains much generalisations and is full of inaccuracy. If your post was designed to create further misinformation regarding EK employment, judging from g-code's reply, you've achieved it.

On a serious note, may I ask if you really do work for EK and if so, how long have you been here?

Harry

[fatbus]

Talpa , not trying to defend EK, but mate you need to chill. If you have been dealt with poorly bring it up with JA or MM. Don't try to get sympathy here.

[in freedom]

I think Talparc may have witnessed one of those stories that can only happen in Dubai. You don't believe them until they happen to you.

[777-200LR]

I happen to know a few TREs and a couple of them very closely, they know nothing about what Talparc is going on about.

Plenty of negatives already physically present, no need to make extra stuff up.

[Talparc]

Just got to know that even ICAO has now started an investigation after several
formal complaints have been filed.

Lets hope for some good news soon:D

[notapilot15]

Talparc

This is not first time and this won't be the last time, but don't hold much hope in ICAO finding anything. Generally they don't. They are busy harassing Thailand for not training enough flight safety inspectors.

Keep in mind UAE was runner up for ICAO head position last year.

[what_goes_up]

Just got to know that even ICAO has now started an investigation...
Just got to know about some more shocking facts...
Talparc

It seems that you "just got to know" a lot of things... None of them seems to be substantial/factual.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Whether you have faith in the UAE/EK reporting systems or not, going to another nation's and competitor carrier's union is incredibly foolish. What interest do they have in our case? They want to put EK out of business, at least out of the EU, and us out of a job. Think about others' motives before jumping into bed with them.

[777boyindubai]

Perhaps this thread shows the nature of how employees (both past and current) feel about EK and the horrible nature that it promotes. There is no Labour Law that pilots can use against the company. EK do nothing to retain FD staff and continually downgrade the package and work people to dangerous levels. The threat of JCockpit might make them re-visit the nasty punitive and viciousness that is their default mode. One could infer that people feel so desperate and hard done by by EK that they are prepared to engage with people who clearly don't have their jobs at heart. There again, neither does EK.

[Talparc]

Interresting Article in German Handelsblatt about Pilot Shortage

unfortunately in German

Emirates und der Pilotenmangel: Golf-Airline stößt an die Grenzen des Wachstums (http://www.handelsblatt.com/12964982.html?share=mail)

[golfyankeesierra]

going to another nation's and competitor carrier's union is incredibly foolish. What interest do they have in our case? They want to put EK out of business
Rubbish, Lufthansa is making huge profits. It's all about the level playing field.
It is far from level and everybody knows it.
For instance factoring, if only that would be judged illegal by EU (or US) authorities it would make a big difference and an improvement for you guys.
The EU unions are your backdoor to the european parliament.
Use them!

Or perhaps you are saying that EU airlines should do factoring as well? Then nobody can argue against the unions getting involved.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Rubbish, Lufthansa is making huge profits. It's all about the level playing field.
It is far from level and everybody knows it.
For instance factoring, if only that would be judged illegal by EU (or US) authorities it would make a big difference and an improvement for you guys.
The EU unions are your backdoor to the european parliament.
Use them!

Or perhaps you are saying that EU airlines should do factoring as well? Then nobody can argue against the unions getting involved.Given past experiences of unions I was in not caring about their own members, I find it incredulous that any union has any good intention for non members. I'm sorry, but this play by the Germans is not for our benefit, and them claiming it to be so should make everyone even more suspicious.

[golfyankeesierra]

First of all, I have no connection whatsoever to VC or German aviation and am only watching them, and you, from a distance.
A few years ago my circumstances were getting so dire that I started to roam the ME forums to get a feel for opportunities around. Fortunately my situation has become more comfortable again but am still following these forums with interest (and sympathy).
Obviously foreign unions shouldn't (and couldn't) have anything to do with whatever labouragreements or contracts you have but when there is any unfair advantage because of (GCAA's interpretation of) FTL's nobody can blame them to get involved.
The european unions have their connections and lobbyists in legislation and while they are usually opposed by the airlines, now they all have a common goal to level the playing field.
Just like the Irish and Dutch ALPA are more or less involved in the Ryanair Pilot Group, so can the German ALPA certainly be of assistance to you.

But as I said, am absolutely not involved here, just my opinion and don't want to speak on anybody's behalf..

[Fellowship of the drink]

Perhaps the OP was referring to this proverb in Arabic

'عدو عدوي هو صديقي' ('Adu 'Aduyi Hooweh Ssadikki)

My enemy's enemy is my friend

[Talparc]

Golfyankeesierra:

excellent post!

[Talparc]

interesting stuff to read:

Fair Trade Coffee -- How About Fair Trade Air Travel? (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rob-britton/fair-trade-coffee----how-about-fair-trade-air-travel_b_9203702.html?&utm_medium=email&utm_source=skies&utm_content=2+-+a+Huffington+Post+oped&utm_campaign=Feb22Emai&source=Feb22Emai)

[Talparc]

Also very interesting


Working Together to Preserve U.S. Airline Jobs (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rob-britton/working-together-to-prese_b_9292242.html)

[PGA]

Europeans for Fair Competition | (http://www.e4fc.eu) is another pan-European flight crew union initiative to curb the growth of the ME3

[Emma Royds]

I thought the original point of this thread was to provoke a discussion about an organisation, that is apparently sympathetic to the challenges that we at EK may face as employees and not to debate the ethics of the growth of the ME3?

[Talparc]

Sorry for the twist hope you guys have by now submitted all our issues and evidence

e.g unfair warning letters, work hours, leave beeing reduced to 30 days,
threatening work environment, reduction of our T & C , ......

[Talparc]

just to remember:

This link is still valid and should be used by all ME Pilots who are looking for a change of
working conditions and who can see a deterioration of flight safety which needs to be stopped.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Golfyankeesierra, IALPA and the Dutch equivalent, plus many other EU unions, are involved in REPA because it is an Irish airline based and employing pilots, many being members of those unions, from and across the EU. So, explain again how a German union has any jurisdiction or benevolent interest in our case and how the two instances are comparable...

[golfyankeesierra]

Obviously foreign unions shouldn't (and couldn't) have anything to do with whatever labouragreements or contracts you have but when there is any unfair advantage because of (GCAA's interpretation of) FTL's nobody can blame them to get involved.
Hi Alu shuffler,
This is what I wrote.
I didn't write there is jurisdiction and and interest in your personal situation.
But there is a big interest in any unfair advantage the ME3 may have, and when those unfair advantages are among the root causes of your discontent (your hours would be illegal in the EU) you, and the German union, have a common goal.

And WRT comparison with the Ryanair pilots, I guess the EU alpa's are investing in the RPG but would be surprised if any of RYR pilots is member of any Alpa (isn't that the whole point?) allowing Ryanair to do with them whatever Ryanair sees fit.

[Aluminium shuffler]

GYS, there's your problem - you're guessing. Many RYR pilots are in an EU ALPA, apparently over 50%. There was a point where BALPA tried to force recognition, but they stuffed it up and have ever since run away from O'Leary with their tail between their legs, so their support of REPA is limited to financial - they're too scared and pathetic to do more. And there is the rub; unions do what is in their interest, which is sometimes aligned with their members' interests, but they never act in the interest of another group.

[in freedom]

Alu Shuffler, sorry but in the case of the German Union and Ryanair I know for a fact that they are trying to help. The Union is however restricted by the legal system and the lack of public interest.
The public only care about cheap tickets. But believe me VC is investing a lot of effort.

[golfyankeesierra]

Of course they never act in the interest of another group.
But still, pilots have common interests. Reading these forums you of all people should know it's a race to the bottom.
We all benefit from each other's union keeping T and C's up.

[Aluminium shuffler]

In Freedom, I know the German unions are helping REPA and the RYR pilots. That is because there are many German pilots and a few German bases in RYR, and many of those pilots are members of the union!. Why do people on this forum insist on criticising posts they haven't bothered to read?:ugh:

[Aluminium shuffler]

GYS, did BALAP help the BMI guys, especially, the BMI Baby lot, when BA bought them, even though they had members in BMI? What about the Go guys when EZY bought them? See them helping at Flybe much? No. Hence my point that unions will serve their own agenda first, members' agendas second, and have utter disinterest in others.

[Talparc]

We all benefit from each other's union keeping T and C's up.

well said golfyankee!

Maybe the recent events will produce now even more evidence!

[nolimitholdem]

I thought the original point of this thread was to provoke a discussion about an organisation, that is apparently sympathetic to the challenges that we at EK may face as employees and not to debate the ethics of the growth of the ME3?

It would seem to me that the challenges that EK pilots face are completely, totally connected to the ethics of the growth of the ME3. In fact I would say there is a perfectly straight line that could be drawn to connect the two.

And I think that pilots at the legacy carriers are recognizing that if they don't combat those ethics, their own rosters and jobs will eventually come to more closely resemble those of the ME3.

Hence I don't question the motives of the likes of a German pilot union taking an active interest in the welfare of EK pilots.