Bristow S76 Ditched in Nigeria today Feb 3 2016

[Keke Napep]

A Bristow S76 has gone down near ExxonMobil's Erha. Far too early to speculate on the cause, so please don't. People have been sighted in a liferaft and a rescue operation is ongoing at present.

I wish my best to all involved and hope that everyone on board has got out okay.

[njorman]

this is no good news for Bristow . But I thank God for no life was lost.

[terminus mos]

From the Bristow website

NIGERIA, (February 3, 2016) – Bristow Helicopters (Nigeria) Limited, confirmed today that one of its helicopters, was involved in a water landing near Lagos at about 10.25 a.m. local time on return from an offshore platform. The aircraft, a Sikorsky S-76C++, had departed on a routine crew transfer flight offshore with nine passengers and a crew of two. All persons onboard are accounted for and in the process of being transferred to a nearby installation. The company is in the process of collecting pertinent information and will release more details as soon as it is available.

[roundwego]

Thank goodness it was a water landing and not a ditching. That would have been terrible.:hmm:

[TIMTS]

Breaking - Bristow Helicopter Flying from Offshore Platform Ditches into Sea - Oil Industry News - Oil and Gas News (http://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/highlights/7132/breaking-bristow-helicopter-flying-from-offshore-platform-ditches-into-sea/)

[tgvbhy15]

Another crash for a Bristow S76. Can´t say I´m surprised though, with all the things that go on here backstage. Luckily everyone's ok this time...
Duncan Moore will be remembered as Bristow's MD with the most number of crashes during his term

[cyclic]

A water landing does not impact on Target Zero but a ditching would.

[helimutt]

Not a lost time incident as technically they are still at work offshore. But seriously, Glad to hear all ok.

[tgvbhy15]

Yes, target zero, that is the only thing that bristow cares about. However it is only really a BS slogan used on their brochures, so they can hand them to clients and hang posters on the wall. Pretty soon they'll start having employee of the month contests like McDonalds.

[ersa]

tgvbhy15

Agree 100% :D

Oh well another contract for Bond to pick up

[megan]

Yes, target zero, that is the only thing that bristow cares aboutThe operating companies (Bristow in this case) can come under immense pressure from the customer (oil company) to short cut requirements, whether they be regulatory, customer or company imposed. Far too easy to blame your own management. Bristow was faced with this problem on another contract, and it was because the oil company aviation adviser stood up to his own management that standards were maintained.

A standard threat made to aircrew in one company by an oil company was if you don't do what is asked you will lose the contract because not cutting corners would add expense.

[kwikenz]

Bond picking up contracts? Because those guys have never crashed anything...?:ugh:

It'll take more than a new paintjob... still cheap is good in this environment I guess.

Great to hear everyone is OK.

[Heathcliff]

Can you name one company who have never crashed? Ever?

[ersa]

Kwikenz,

Whats the crash got to do with it, we were talking about target bull****....

[HMM]

Seriously.....Never ceases to amaze me that people will crawl out from under their rocks and start slinging **** when they have no idea what they are talking about. This ditching could have been due to a multitude of different possible events, any and all of which are unknown at this time.

Something like this could happen to any of us, any day, for reasons beyond anyones control, i.e. bird strike etc.

I'm glad that the pilots managed to make a safe ditching, and that all concerned are alive!!!!!

Cheers

[Never Fretter]

HMM and Megan
Kudos for talking sense.

[njorman]

I still believe it's too early for frivolous speculations.

[Never Fretter]

I still believe it's too early for frivolous speculations.. It's always too early for that ;)

[tgvbhy15]

Well, I am not speculating at all as I fly here in Nigeria for Bristow. I see everyday the sort of sh## that goes on here. Yet nothing, NOTHING is done to fix it. But rest assured that if one of the Target Zero posters at the entrance needs polishing or fixing, it will be done a.s.a.p.
What really amazes me is not that people crawl from under their rock to criticize what they see (most times true, although sometimes exaggerated) but that Bristow management, without knowing all the facts about the S76 ditching, hurried to issue a statement saying that everyone was safe after a "water landing". I'm surprised they did not add the word routine before "water landing". I know for a fact that when this statement was sent to the press, the facts about this ditching were not known. All they knew was where it had happened and that there were no fatalities.

[The Sultan]

Added ABC article:

Nigeria's aviation regulatory agency is suspending operation of all Sikorsky model S-76C++ helicopters following two crashes in six months in the West African country, the director general said Thursday.

One helicopter crash-landed off an oil rig in the Atlantic Ocean on Wednesday. Nine passengers and two crew members were rescued from the sea, emergency management officials said.

Another Sikorsky nose-dived Aug. 10 into a lagoon in Lagos, the commercial capital, killing six of the 12 people on board including the American pilot and Nigerian co-pilot.

The U.S.-made aircraft are operated in Nigeria by Bristow, a Houston, Texas-based company that provides air services to offshore oil and gas companies.

"The Nigerian Civil Aviation Authority has therefore decided to suspend the operation of the Bristow Helicopters Sikorsky S-76C++ type till further notice" pending "a full audit," director general Capt. Muhtar Usman said Thursday.

He said the temporary ban from Nigerian airspace took effect Wednesday. Bristow said in a statement that it has complied, calling the order "standard practice" following the "controlled water-landing."

But the helicopters were not suspended from service after the August accident.

In a preliminary report into that crash published in September, Nigeria's Accident Investigation Bureau said the control pushrod assembly had failed — the tube had separated from the control rod end with the bearing and the jamnut was loose. It described a fault that could lead to loss of control of the aircraft and recommended that Sikorsky "should consider a redesign of the affected control pushrod."

The Sikorsky Aircraft Corp. headquartered in Stratford, Connecticut, did not immediately respond to AP requests for comment.

Bristow said Wednesday's crash-landing occurred near Lagos. Nigerian officials said the chopper went down about 110 miles (175 kilometers) from Lagos in the Niger Delta. There was no quick way to resolve the discrepancy Thursday night.


Nigeria has suspended S-76C++ operations until Bristow is investigated.

The Sultan

[Mark Six]

The rumour which has reached Oz is that the latest ditching was simply due to fuel starvation, ie insufficient fuel to complete the mission.

[ersa]

So target Zero stands up:D

[tistisnot]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't ...... in these days of speedy social media.

Surely the most important thing is to quell the fears of the loved ones of the crew, passengers, oil workers ...... if management had that information, who cares a damn about the cause, the type of landing so long as all are safe and sound; you can worry about the investigation later.

We all know, surely, second hand reports often cannot be relied upon - which makes it a delicate balance between publishing or not .... never mind the online sleuths and experts.

[megan]

What ever lead to the event, the limited damage seems to indicate a nicely controlled ditching. Pity about the bags deflating and rolling her over. Running short of fuel? Find that a little hard to believe unless there were extenuating circumstances.

Reports say, "This is just as a barge has been deployed to the scene of the crash off Lagos buoy to convey faulty helicopter to Lagos. THISDAY exclusively gathered that 11 occupants of the helicopter, comprising two pilots and nine passengers, were trapped for two hours and left to their fate before a merchant vessel chanced on them and rescued them.

The vessel, MV Dijama, a supply ship and tug boat, rescued the occupants before emergency rescuers stormed the scene and took all 11, who had suffered dislocations and minor injuries, to the hospital.

Also, THISDAY gathered that many of the 11 occupants who were flown to Lagos and were admitted into a private clinic for thorough check up before they were released."

http://allafrica.com/download/pic/main/main/csiid/00320299:a8e612336bd656f9d64191c865e8cc12:arc614x376:w614:us 1.png

[[email protected]]

No ELT/EPIRB???

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Crab;

From my experience the crew tend to carry ELT's, but they are rarely (never in the hot places I worked, but I'm happy to be corrected about anywhere else) fitted to aircraft to keep the weight down. The North Sea always went belt and braces on ADELT, ELT etc, but the performance margins were better due to the climate.

I often wonder with 20/20 hindsight whether the oil companies and everyone else in the off-shore chain ever contemplated the risks to safety caused by the constant threat of contract removal, price cuts and the occasionally awful commercial pressure placed on crews. Talking to mates who are still off-shore the current fear of unemployment is causing huge stress across the industry. Does Target Zero take worried, distracted and possibly fatigued crews into account?

SND

[Brother]

I have heard that it maybe "crew" related rather than mechanically related.

Its a Rumour Forum.

[212man]

No ELT/EPIRB???

I missed what prompted this question. I'm pretty sure the aircraft would have had an ELT, but they're not much use if there is no SAR organisation to search for you!

[Helicopterfixerman]

I think the question was prompted by the speculation/indication that the aircraft sat on the water for "2hours" before rescue.

[[email protected]]

Yes it was. All 406 Mhz transmissions are satellite monitored in UK so a simple phone call could have alerted the owners/operators if the ELT was registered (as it should be). At least someone might have known they were there within a few minutes instead of having to wait for a merchant vessel to chance upon them.

[soggyboxers]

If any of the so-called SAR experts cared to look at the photos which were posted by Megan, they would have seen the ADELT fitted on the starboard side of the tail boom. Also all Bristow helicopters operating in Nigeria have some form of rescue beacon carried in the dinghy or dinghy stowage and each crew member has a beacon in her/his life jacket.

In other photos I have seen of the aircraft floating upside down in the sea, all the flotation bags appear fully inflated, so the capsize of the aircraft seems likely to be caused by other factors - maybe the sea state? I have no idea.

The wait of 2 hours mentioned in the newspaper report may, or may not be true. - Nigerian papers are notoriously unreliable. With the total absence of any credible SAR service in Nigeria, it was most likely due to it taking that long to get a ship there.

There have been several times that the offshore oil companies in Nigeria have talked of funding a dedicated SAR helicopter, the last one I know of being around 4 years ago to have fully crewed, SAR S92. All have foundered because of inter-oil company squabbling as to which was going to run it, or lack of funding. It has always amazed me that as one of the largest oil producing nations, Nigeria's NEMA has had no offshore SAR capability.

The cause of this ditching is not known yet, but as all the occupants of the aircraft have survived, the crew will doubtless be able to assist the investigation. The aircraft has been recovered, so it's likely cause will soon be known to Bristow. Hopefully the management will then release the information in the interests of safety (and to stop disgruntled employees using social media to air their grievances).

[tistisnot]

Sir Niall Dementia

In the several hot-climate locations I have been, the authority always stipulates an aircraft mounted ELT as a minimum, as well as possibly a portable EPIRB/ELT, not to mention customer required / OGP recommended ADELT for offshore oil & gas operations ......

[Sir Niall Dementia]

tistisnot;

Thanks for that. I was in SE Asia and Africa in the very early nineties and we had ELTs in the crew jackets and on the S61 an ELT by the freight door, but no ADELT or anything for the pax.

The rest of my off-shore time was spent in very cold places where the aircraft were festooned with them, in fact so many that I did wonder if the whole lot were set off would they garble the signal and cause confusion. I've since been told that shouldn't happen, but it did tick around my little brain while over sea at 1-2 deg C!

SND

[Helicopterfixerman]

Sir Nial,


I think something akin to that did happen after the ETAP incident where the 225 was set down on the water inadvertently.


Something about the PLBs the pax were wearing, fooling the aircraft ELT into reducing power, and thus hindering search in foggy conditions?


Someone with much more knowledge will be along I'm sure to confirm whether or not I have that correct..........

[bluesafari]

In the pictures published above it does appear that the aft chamber of the forward right float is deflated, and the aft right float bag does not appear fully inflated, this may have contributed to the aircraft turning over, equally this deflation may have occurred during the salvage operations

[tistisnot]

Fixerman - Nice phrase ...... "set down upon the water inadvertently"!!

I hardly think it hindered the EC225 rescue ..... it "alighted" pretty close to the rig (500m) and witnesses raised the alarm. But yes there was an issue with the passenger PLB's and interference with other supposedly smart ELT's ..... I think now software resolved.

The issue here is though in remote areas, without airborne SAR, a SART is far more likely to effect a faster rescue as all international shipping nearby will receive it - not someone miles away searching for the HEX code, owner's contact details. Personal PLB's are really only for close in, I would suggest, once the SAR aircraft arrives though modern ac have thermal pictures etc.

[soggyboxers]

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c361/evansniger/Capsized%20S76.jpg (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/evansniger/media/Capsized%20S76.jpg.html)

This is the photo I have of the aircraft before the recovery

[Fareastdriver]

Maybe I'm wrong, but should the ELT have been ejected put of it's housing before it can transmit.

[Greeny9]

No requirement to, can transmit in situ or after deplyment depending on what you select on the control panel.

[cpt]

Yes, fareastdriver, on the model of ADELT I'm familiar with, it should be deployed, if possible, immediatly before ditching, if not, ejection will be automatically commanded by water sensitive sensors. (as long as the arming selector is positioned on "arm deploy") Distress signals are activated by the upright position of the floating device.
On the above picture, the "ADELT" seems to still be attached to the airframe.

But of course, we still can activate it from inside the cockpit, when it is still in place.

[dieseldo]

As the beacon appears to be under water it would not be operative.

[Keke Napep]

Fareastdriver,
You're correct that the ADELT should have been deployed before the aircraft was ditched. As Greeny9 says, it will still operate in its housing, but will not be as effective

[diginagain]

But yes there was an issue with the passenger PLB's and interference with other supposedly smart ELT's ..... I think now software resolved.
Resolved in so far as expecting the passengers to manually switch-off their PLB to avoid the issue.

[Ainippe]

Ersa "So target Zero stands up:D "


Is this all you can spend time doing? Slagging management - you really need to get this whole affair in perspective. The cause has not been released and you are grabbing onto anything that may further your cause to have a pop at Bristows Operations. Lets hears the official report before assuming anything.

[[email protected]]

Tistisnot - as I understand it, a SART is a transponder not a transmitter so it has to be interrogated by a ship's radar to get a response - therefore you have to be in range of a ship's radar to be detected.

A 406 Mhz beacon however, is visible to satellites and the two messages about its owner and its position are transmitted every 50 seconds or so - the satellite picks up those messages and transmits them to an earth station (LUT) when it sees one.

The UK MCA have their own monitoring setup - which was embedded in the ARCCK - and can quickly identify whose beacon it is.

Which one would you prefer?

All ELTs/EPIRBS perform best when the aerial has a clear view of the sky - not suprisingly really - so deploying them properly will always give a better signal.

The 225 incident had to do with 121.5 beacons not 406 beacons (although 406 ones have an embedded 121.5 transmitter in them as well)

[tistisnot]

Crab

The 406 transmits the HEX code and ac gps position if linked or its own gps position if installed .... where there is no SAR ac I would prefer the SART as it will trigger alarms on nearby vessels .... fine telling someone miles away - if they have assets to deploy.

Many ac nowadays will have an ISAT for the company to ascertain the ac's whereabouts.

[[email protected]]

where there is no SAR ac I would prefer the SART as it will trigger alarms on nearby vessels that's the point I was making - if there are no nearby vessels then no-one knows you have ditched - the 406 alerts are international and at least someone in your company or in your country of operation would be alerted.

Then whatever SAR assets there are can be deployed, even if they take a while to get there - it's got to be better than sitting there hoping a boat comes close enough to ping your SART with its radar. Standard radar horizon is about 20 nm.

Do the Bristow Nigeria aircraft have satellite comms? I presume by ISAT you mean inmarsat?

[Keke Napep]

tgbvhy15,
Just what are you trying to imply in your post? You seem to be good at making remarks which whilst not directly offensive or critical can clearly be implied as so.

Crab and tsitisnot,
Talk about thread drift! All helicopters that I know of operating in the O&G sector offshore in Nigeria have some form of ADELT/CPI either on the aircraft or life rafts and the crew have some form of emergency beacon on their jackets. To the best of my knowledge, all the helicopter companies have rescue beacons operating on 406MHz.

The crew of the S76 had already been in contact with approach and informed them of the fact that they may have to ditch. The only big problem is that in Nigeria we have no credible offshore Search and Rescue which I believe to be a national disgrace in a country of our size and wealth. I am very happy that all the occupants of BQJ are safe and I hope that this might spur our government to properly equip NEMA with at least 4 proper SAR helicopters based in Lagos, and Port Harcourt at the very least, but preferably also in either Escravos or Benin and Calabar or Eket. I'm sorry, but knowing my people, it probably won't happen in my lifetime.

[imuney]

Glad to hear everyone is ok. However I'm wondering how the recent layoffs of experienced expats and the nationalization of Bristow Nigeria have affected safety and crew standards?

I wouldn't be surprised if this so called water landing was the result of a miscalculation or misinterpretation by an all national crew.

[212man]

I take it neither of you are familiar with the term 'corporate memory'?

[pilonrock]

Guys and gals. This whole thing has got nothing to do with any of the thoughts put forward... Willful blindness on the part of Mgmt... Or lack of experienced expat crews. There is no difference between 100 hrs in a R22 and 3000hrs of bush flying experience. The only thing that matters is that GOD made the controlled landing happen. Whether he intervened during the flight planning process by interfering with HUMP .. Or during the actual flight... It was Devine intervention . Perhaps we should carefully think about what is the real reason. We should all repent and pray that we should all be so lucky. The really great news is that Easter will be upon us soon along with mr floppy ears. It may be a bit of an reach but do you suppose that the Easter bunny knows the tooth ferry? Probably. AMEN!

[TIMTS]

Let the hero worship begin:

https://www.naij.com/721285-meet-female-captain-bristow-helicopter-ditched-atlantic-ocean-pics.html

And here her "feat of heroism" is compared to the August crash, implying that had she been there it would have ended differently:

Bristow Heroine: Jayeola, Nigeria?s 1st Female Helicopter Captain Who ?Saved? 11 lives in Lagos Crash! - Sunday Adelaja's Blog (http://www.sundayadelajablog.com/6846-2/)

Ridiculous, tasteless...and racist. But I guess it makes me ridiculous, tasteless and racist to voice that opinion...

[helipiloto]

Wow! I am speechless! Where do these people get their information!?

It's funny, in the first article the captain flew an apparently new model: the S-76X++. :D

On the second one, as the article goes on, the number of people the captain saved increases. First it was 11 pax then it increases to 13! pretty amazing!

And then goes on to say that the captain of the august crash (Jay, may he rest in peace) only joined the company the previous year??? uuuhh what!?

Anyway, let's all praise captain Abimbola and her outstanding, heroic, split second decision to land the helicopter on the ocean in order to save the lives of 15 people!!

Welcome to the twilight zone......

[bh412tt]

I have never flown a S-76 and was not around when this happened. I do find it curious (if true) that a distress call was made and a split second decision was made to ditch 20 minutes later.:rolleyes:

[helonorth]

Welcome to planet Earth, piloto. Apparently you are about the only one left to realize much of the information you get from the media can be erroneous.

[imuney]

What else do you guys expect to come out of the center of excellence? You had to be there to believe it. Can't wait for Keke to put his spin on this.

[bh412tt]

Centre of excellence....................

[helimutt]

i'd rather know the circumstances requiring the act of a ditching. technical? fuel? smudged lipstick? oops, thats out of order. :E

[RyRy]

Any more on the rumour they didn't have enough fuel?

[tgvbhy15]

I'm gonna bet on the lipstick theory

[The Sultan]

With what little is known it is not prudent to speculate. It is obvious the crew did better than the Glasgow 135 pub crew, the Cougar S-92 crew (who in fairness were misled by Sikorsky), and a certain UH-1Y crew who had get home fever and ignored red warnings. These three were avoidable and caused loss of life. This S-76 did not have any fatalities so winners.

The Sultan

[Phone Wind]

Honestly, some of you guys just crack me up with your dumb comments which are either way off the mark or just cheap point scoring against either your company or the people in the country you voluntary decided to work in. If you don't like it why not just leave? Oh yes, I guess because that company in that country pays the salary and gives you the roster so you can live in your own (presumably much nicer) country with much nicer people and enjoy a pretty good standard of living.:ugh:

bh412tt,
Centre of Excellence just refers to the Lagos State nickname on car number plates. It was used a lot more on the 'What's New in Nigeria' forum (as it was originally called) as a rather derisory term for a well-known Nigerian helicopter company. If you work in Port Harcourt, you'll be in the 'Treasure Base of the Nation', if in Delta, you'll be in 'The Finger of God' (though it used to be The Big Heart), if you're in Eket, you're in 'The Land of Promise'.

Yes Nigerian newspapers are pretty awful and sensational and whilst quite a few of their stories are about witches and goats being arrested for crimes, many of them do have a grain of truth. To be honest, I think most of them are no worse than the tabloids in many countries and some of the stories are so ridiculous as to be amusing. But then again, instead of highlighting anything as ridiculous as getting one letter wrong in the type of aircraft, like helipoloto, I just find it amusing. That, and getting the numbers wrong is almost always the case these days and no worse than the BBC or the New York Times (or El Pais or El Mundo in his own country). The Fourth Estate always glamourises the 'heroic' pilots who manage to land a 'stricken' aircraft, or sadly those who died at the hands of criminals as in the recent tragic case in Tanzania.

From what I have heard (again only hearsay), a call was made that there was a technical problem which may necessitate a ditching if it couldn't be cleared and this was relayed to Lagos approach by a Caverton helicopter crew. The problem got worse and a decision was made in difficult circumstances to ditch the aircraft (I'm sure whoever in Human Remains decided to call it a 'water landing' will remember that gaffe for years to come :E). Many things could result in a decision to ditch from a loss of MGB oil pressure to a fire warning in the baggage compartment. I note that unlike many of those who would like to slag off the company they work for or the crew, Captain Jayeola is maintaining a dignified silence (whether from choice or company pressure).

At the end of the day, everybody who boarded the aircraft is still alive, a few have slight injuries and the insurance will pay for a new airframe and it really saddens me to read the openly sexist and crypto-racist comments on this thread. One of the most naturally gifted pilots I ever flew with was a lady and one of the best training captains I ever learned from was an African.

[bh412tt]

Phone Wind, merely pointing out the thread error spelling of center, American and centre British, as on the license plates. As I also stated, I have never flown a S-76 and no longer work for Bristow. I have no opinion of what happened as I was not there. :ugh:

[tistisnot]

bh412tt

If you are going to demand centre of excellence ..... then you should have licence (not license) too!!

[Same again]

At last a balanced, intelligent post. Thank you Phone Wind.

[Keepitup]

Honestly !!!!, are we getting down to correcting spelling mistakes, and yet, find out you are incorrect to correct !!!


British - Licence
USA - License


Not hard is it!


Glad all are OK on the flight, look forward to seeing the report


Keepitup

[Bravo73]

look forward to seeing the report

Don't hold your breath.

There still hasn't been any sign of an accident report from the previous Bristow Nigeria 'water landing'.

[212man]

There still hasn't been any sign of an accident report from the previous Bristow Nigeria 'water landing'.

Apart from the preliminary report, you mean? http://www.aib.gov.ng/j867yh35d.php?filename=PREBRISTOWHELICOPTERS12082015.pdf

They also have a statement on their website about this latest incident:

Bristow Helicopter ditched enroute Lagos
Dateline: Lagos 03 February, 2016
Accident Investigation Bureau AIB has commenced
investigation into the ditching into the Atlantic Ocean
of a S76 C++ helicopter marked 5N-BQJ belonging to
Bristow Helicopters, which occurred at about 10:20am
local time today.
The aircraft with nine passengers and two crew
members had departed ERHA Oil Platform enroute
Lagos before it was ditched 95 nautical miles to
destination. No life was lost.
Details will be released later.

[212man]

Looking through their other reports, I came across the BHL Citation accident at PH. http://www.aib.gov.ng/j867yh35d.php?filename=BRISTOW CITATION 5N-BMM.pdf

I can just imagine the scene after the impact.....:ok::ok:

Following the lack of proper emergency procedures, which
led to some utterances in the cabin such as: "This door should
open in Jesus name, open in Jesus name" (CVR) The door was
jammed due to the severity of the impact.

[tgvbhy15]

Let's all raise our glasses to censorship. I don't know what is worse Bristow Nigeria Management or the censorship that goes on in this forum.
I don't know why we bother to write here if we can't do it freely and openly.
It is really frustrating working in a place where everything is corrupted and manipulated by the people in charge.
Is this also the way this forum works?

[tistisnot]

Keep yer hair on ..... read post 55 ..... and you may find I too am correct ..... did-didnot centre/licence (noun only) UK ..... was it 92% or 94%

[Bravo73]

Apart from the preliminary report, you mean? http://www.aib.gov.ng/j867yh35d.php?filename=PREBRISTOWHELICOPTERS12082015.pdf


That link is coming out as gobbledygook on my 'phone. Is it relating to the Super Puma that ditched a few years ago (and featured on YouTube)?

[pilonrock]

I think that Bristow MGMT needs to apply the same sweeping changes to BATS and send home all remaining Xpat engineers and managers.

They really need to be consistent with their policy.

Once they have complete Nigerian content it will be a better company and the level of safety will be greatly improved.

[212man]

That link is coming out as gobbledygook on my 'phone. Is it relating to the Super Puma that ditched a few years ago (and featured on YouTube)?

Yes, on mine too but works fine on a laptop. No, it is the preliminary report on the fatal 76 accident last August. It would appear that the Nigerian AIB was 'kick started' after the 332 ditching, and the last BHNL (rotary) report is the suicide in Eket. They have several other reports of local incidents though: Home | Accident Investigation Bureau (http://www.aib.gov.ng/publication.php) so I think it's unfair (now) to say that this latest event won't have a report published.

[Nigel Osborn]

That 412 accident was very sad. I endorsed that pilot about 1992 on the S76 & introduced him to offshore flying as well as instrument flying. When Lloyds won the Karratha contract, he moved there with his lovely wife & I thought they were a very happy couple, so I was surprised he had divorced & remarried & become a muslim in the Gulf. He left Lloyds when they lost the Karratha contract & moved to the Gulf to start a new life, much to all our surprise.

[terminus mos]

Let's all raise our glasses to censorship. I don't know what is worse Bristow Nigeria Management or the censorship that goes on in this forum.
I don't know why we bother to write here if we can't do it freely and openly.
It is really frustrating working in a place where everything is corrupted and manipulated by the people in charge.
Is this also the way this forum works?

I agree, I wrote a post yesterday, much of it criticising some of your own posts but it was deleted by mods. Now we are united in being deleted.

[Torquetalk]

tgbvhy15


No doubt you think getting censored has something to do with political correctness. But your picture of a black female crew was clearly intended as a racist and sexist slur. Just dismal quite frankly.


Implying the forum is corrupt and manipulated just because you can't post what the hell you like is a bit of a stretch.

[oleary]

I have never flown a S-76 and was not around when this happened. I do find it curious (if true) that a distress call was made and a split second decision was made to ditch 20 minutes later.

I flew B212/214ST and SK61/76's offshore for donkey's years.

If you lose tranny oil pressure, reduce power, descend to 50' Rad Alt and head for nearest land (or maybe boat/rig, depending how far out you are).

Call flight watch and tell them you have a problem that may require ditching.

If the tranny starts making really expensive noises put the rocket in the water - IMMEDIATELY.

Is there something about this scenario that eludes you?

[gulliBell]

In other words, do what the RFM says :D

[oleary]

In other words, do what the RFM says

Might work, eh? :O

[fadecdegraded]

Well doesn't that make perfect sense, Im thinking she may have read the flight manual as well.

[Same again]

Well doesn't that make perfect sense, Im thinking she may have read the flight manual as well.

An African female who can actually read might come as a surprise to some of the mysogonistic dinosaurs on this forum.

[gulliBell]

Remember in the S76 you don't have a 30 minute MGB run dry capability. If you have confirmed loss of MGB PRESS you need to get low and find a place to land as soon as possible. If abnormal noise and/or vibration you need to land immediately, the gear box might only last a minute or two. If you see the TQ rising to maintain NR (even near flat pitch) you might only have less than a minute to get it down. Once the engines are maxed out the NR will start decreasing rapidly, you now only have a few seconds to land it. Do not autorotate at any stage of this malfunction, you must keep power going into the MGB to keep it turning.

Obviously I'm not speculating what might have happened in the Bristow instance.

[TIMTS]

Latest rumor is that the crew called in with an "autopilot deviation"...

[MamaPut]

Nope, not an MGB problem, not an autopilot deviation. Keep speculating, but it won't make a single difference to what actually happened :ugh:

[gulliBell]

The only malfunctions that I can think of that would put an S76 in the water are MGB/TGB/IGB with noise/vibration, TR driveshaft failure, un-contained engine/electrical fire, fuel contamination/exhaustion, hydraulic with binding, double engine failure. There are a couple of others that might sucker a crew into needlessly putting it into the water.

The only one that makes sense to me in this instance is a fuel problem. Do they refuel on the platform? Just speculating.

[terminus mos]

Or a perceived problem with the controls and the memory of August 12th while talking with base and getting advice?

[gulliBell]

As far as I know, August 12th the crew had no prior indication, and once the control tube came undone there was nothing they could do to alter the outcome?

[oleary]

Remember in the S76 you don't have a 30 minute MGB run dry capability.

Yup, I totally agree.

In any case, anyone who thinks you can "run dry" a helicopter gearbox for any significant length of time is an idiot - regardless of what the manufacturer says.

On the 61 we had "emergency lube" but that was NOT run dry, it just lubed the inputs and bought you some time.

P&W experimented with a "paraffin lube" thing for the combining gearbox on the Twinpac in F/W but again, that was not run dry is was more like the 61 emerg lube system.

Finally, I am not speculating on what happened in this incident either. I will say there were no serious injuries so good on Captain Jayeola :D and her crew.

[Geoffersincornwall]

You are so out of touch - I suggest you do some research on line and find the information about the run dry tests on the AW139 gearbox.

G. :ok:

[gulliBell]

Point taken above about reading the RFM, but comprehension of what is written in the RFM can't be assumed (which is a general comment based on my observations as a teacher on S76). I have seen time and time again, even in crews with thousands of hours experience, not even being on the right checklist for a particular malfunction. There is no point running the wrong checklist perfectly because it probably won't solve the problem. Often it pays to stop reading and just think about the problem, because applying pilot common sense to a problem yields a more sensible outcome than being rail-roaded down the perfectly read wrong checklist.

Again, this comment is made completely not in relation to the specifics of this Bristow ditching.

[Mars]

We have probably done this to death but any discussion about the ability for a gearbox to 'run dry' is nearly always a conditional statement. For example, Giuseppe Gasparini, head of transmission systems design and development at AgustaWestland makes this observation:

I prefer to say “Loss of Lubrication,” or LoL, and not “run dry” or “run without oil”; we are demonstrating the capability of the gearbox to operate and transmit torque after the loss of most of its original lubricant when the oil is suddenly lost, but some residual lubricant is still inside the gearbox. This means the MGB can continue to run for 30 minutes without loss of drive or any other catastrophic failure after the pilot notes a major lubrication system failure, normally identified as a low pressure warning, and immediately reduces power to the minimum required to maintain forward flight and lands as soon as possible.
Notwithstanding this, there have been real advances in the material used, and the finishing, for contacting surfaces within the gearbox.

(As with previous posters, this is not a comment on the S76 accident.)

Mars

[Phone Wind]

As it seems unlikely that a MGB problem caused the ditching of this aircraft, why don't some of the people who are posting on here start a separate thread?

[gulliBell]

A gearbox malfunction fits the profile of the little we know about what happened, more so than any of the other malfunctions I mentioned at #86. Those other malfunctions more than likely would put you in the water quicker than, from what we know, the time they had to fly around before making the decision to land on the water.

If it turns out to be something other than anything mentioned at #86 might make for some interesting reading. The S76 is a very well known quantity, but it is possible that something surprising might have happened. I'm sure they'll work it all out in quick time and thus end our mindless further speculation.

[twisted wrench]

Goggle this article is interesting reading:


Nigeria: NCAA Expresses Worry Over Incessant Bristow Helicopter Accidents




I see the stock price dropped by almost $4 yesterday to new all time low, result of this incident or the last quarter results ( maybe both) ?

[lowfat]

I would say due to the performance results... An incident in Nigeria which has hardly made the news in america/europe (if it all) will have no bearing on the share price.

Most investors wont know where or what Nigeria is I'm afraid.....

[j.callagan]

"The only thing that matters is that GOD made the controlled landing happen. Whether he intervened during the flight planning process by interfering with HUMP .. Or during the actual flight... It was Devine intervention." pilonrock



I really want to see the passengers faces when they realize that pilots entrust and handover the SOPs, Flight Planning, OMs and Limitations to "GOD" and the "Devine intervention" :yuk:

[gulliBell]

Look on the bright side, the tanking share price makes the dividend yield look pretty good :O

[Phone Wind]

I've not read such a load of garbage in a long time as the article in 'This Day' which comes of googling the words suggested by twisted wrench, but then Nigerian newspapers, as has already been mentioned several times on this thread, are renowned as being high in sensationalism and low in fact content. It's quite obvious that the source in NCAA is unhappy that Bristow doesn't pay bribes to officials, unlike some of the local operators.

The accident with the Citation, although crew related, had nothing with crew experience. There was no suggestion that the ditching of the Super Puma in 2010 had anything to do with maintenance.

Apparently the S76 is very similar to the S92, just like the Bell 426 is similar to the Bell 412 I guess.

It's obvious that one of the local operators is unhappy that despite their paying bribes to the NCAA, Bristow is still the largest operator in Nigeria (and the vast majority of civil trained Nigerian pilots, including those working for its competitors, have had their training paid for by Bristow.

[pilonrock]

I'm sure in you dig into local newspaper articles before the ditching, you will find clear evidence that several local goats had chronic diarrhea several days prior to the incident. More research and the indicators are there. Predicting the event should have been a no brainier! Odd how senior mgmt didn't predict it. SOPs ? Nonsense! Most Devine messages take precedence, they are inaudible to most except Nigerians and are coded through large speakers in most cases with the base cranked beyond the normal range of human hearing. Gods doing, nothing else!

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

212man/Nigel Osborn,

I was the M.P. of Eket when C.B. flew BIQ into the ground next to the QIT.

He had just requested (and been given) work-over, which was prevalent at the time so he could put down a deposit on a Porsche GT3. He was over the moon about it.

Despite some CRM issues manifesting themselves from time to time he was a more than competent pilot and never complained about an extra programme, late finishes etc, as was often the case at Eket in the days of 6 badly MOBIL managed 412s.

Nobody saw that "accident" coming, including the very experienced Captain who was rostered to fly with him that day, and who also frequents this forum.

The NCAA and AIB reports glossed over a lot of information which was readily available at the time. That oversight was entirely theirs, nothing to do with Bristow.

Subsequent reports appear to be much more thorough, impartial and draw upon external technology/knowledge where appropriate. I trust this one will be too.

Just my two penneth.

NEO

[megan]

More of an enquiry than a possible cause contribution.

One operator used Dexron oil in the MGB in accordance with the 76 manuals, which was OK in the usual temperate climate, but when the OAT got up the MGB pressure would plummet into the basement, below flyable limits.

Dexron was an oil originally developed for car automatic transmissions. The operator used it because it was one third the price of the alternative Mobil Jet which was used in the engines.

Lab tests following low pressure incidents showed that the oil passed all tests, and the theory was that the oil in passing through the jets was subject to shearing stresses that chopped the long chain molecules into shorter chains. I’d have thought that would show up in the viscosity tests, but apparently not.

Has anybody else experience with Dexron?

[oleary]

You are so out of touch - I suggest you do some research on line and find the information about the run dry tests on the AW139 gearbox.


Right, it will run 30 minutes with absolutely NO OIL.

I'm sure that's true, but .... you go first, squire :hmm:

About 200 nm offshore in the North Sea at night ought to do it.

[Outwest]

About 200 nm offshore in the North Sea at night ought to do it.

I suspect it would, since that's probably about 60 mins past the certification.....

It is not meant to be able to take you home from anywhere, but it is absolutely guaranteed and tested to take you farther than the 9 mins of a S92 MGB.

[oleary]

From here: http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/2013-06-17/agustawestland-sets-new-run-dry-standard-helicopters

Giuseppe Gasparini, head of transmission systems design and development at AgustaWestland, said when asked:

Q: What does the 30-minute run-dry requirement really mean?

A: I prefer to say “Loss of Lubrication,” or LoL, and not “run dry” or “run without oil”; we are demonstrating the capability of the gearbox to operate and transmit torque after the loss of most of its original lubricant when the oil is suddenly lost, but some residual lubricant is still inside the gearbox.

Like I said earlier, mate .... you go first :O

[oleary]

Interesting that your latest gen rocket doesn't have the run dry (which ain't really "run dry") capability of my 50 year old SK61.

The N model had something called emergency lube. It consisted of an overlarge transmission sump designed such that the bottom part (5 gallons I believe) could only be accessed by a little electrical pump. So, you can piss all the oil out (happened to me in the Beaufort with a frozen vent) and when the pressure drops below a set value (8 psi as I recall) the pump comes on a lubricates the critical bits.

This system has been proven many times to last a lot longer than 30 minutes. Some claim it will go 3 hours but I don't think I would want to try that :8

[Outwest]

This system has been proven many times to last a lot longer than 30 minutes.


Well my friend I flew the 61 for 22 years, also in the Beaufort so we may even have flown together at one time so I think I know that a/c pretty well. She is a fine old ship, but that emerg lube was to lube the Babbitt bearings so that the whole a/c did not become a magnesium fueled fire ball within seconds of the Babbitts running dry. It was never intended or advertised as a "run dry" MGB.

Really? Many times? Can you give some examples?

I know of the incident off the East Coast where a T fitting broke and pumped ALL the oil overboard, even the emergency lube sump. That machine was ditched.

As much as I love the 61 and have great respect for it, in a loss of MGB oil I'll take a 139 any day.

[oleary]

OKX flew most of the way back to shore (about 80 nm as I recall with nothing but emergency lube. When Jimmy decided to put it in the water it was still running fine but very hot.

In my Beaufort example I was only about 10 minutes out so we just turned around and came back to Tuk (~20 min total). I'll find some other examples tomorrow.

As much as I love the 61 and have great respect for it, in a loss of MGB oil I'll take a 139 any day.

No doubt, she is a fine rocket - but she ain't "run dry" either - which was my point from the very beginning. See post #105.

[Outwest]

If you check the facts on OKX it eventually ran completely out of oil, including the emerg lube sump. That was what lead to the removal of the T fitting that originally supplied oil to the torque meter.

The 139 is certified for 30 min after complete loss of oil and actually tested well beyond that so I'm not sure why you insist on saying it is not.

Regardless, I can see I'm beating a dead horse here so lets get this thread back to the 76 ditching in Nigeria.

Cheerio

[212man]

Subsequent reports appear to be much more thorough, impartial and draw upon external technology/knowledge where appropriate. I trust this one will be too

Yes, which was what I was trying to imply in my earlier post - they have clearly become a different organisation than they previously were.

[HLCPTR]

"Run dry" is simply a common term for losing oil pressure or volume. The MGB still has residual oil in it. When they tested the 139, it was run to operating temp, then the oil was dumped. Power was reduced to max endurance (the same thing the crew would do) and run well in excess of 30 minutes without any significant damage to the parts.

For those who want even better capability for extended "run dry" operation, the 139 now has an option for a configuration which is standard on the 189. An "emergency" reservoir on each side which will continue to provide minimal lubrication to the input module area (21,000 rpm) until they are empty. Pretty foolproof. No pumps or T-fittings required. That configuration increases the "run dry" time to 50 minutes. Proven in testing.

[industry insider]

I haven't been around here for 18 months or so. It's taken me a while to read this thread. Lots of nasty and not really relevant stuff. Oh, and massive drift to try to become a run dry gearbox thread.

Anyway, no MGB or other systems to blame here. Just a case of mistaken identity.

[2papabravo]

Just a case of mistaken identity.

Care to elaborate?

[j.callagan]

Sure pilonrock. Divine intervention like 5N-BMM incident.

"Following the lack of proper emergency procedures, which
led to some utterances in the cabin such as: "This door should
open in Jesus name, open in Jesus name" (CVR) The door was
jammed due to the severity of the impact."

Keep up the good work.. :ugh:

[TIMTS]

Crews in Nigeria have been told the reason for the ditching, but have also been told that they can't share it. I would assume, as wrong as assuming might be, that if it had in any way been airframe related, MGB or otherwise, the info would have been shared...and not just Bristow S-76s would have been grounded.

[tgvbhy15]

5NBQJ departed PH that morning with the original plan to ferry the helicopter to Lagos. 2 crew on board. Once en route crew were asked if they could route via the ERHA to pick up pax and bring them to Lagos. They did, but did not do the proper fuel calculations. 20 mins or so after departing the ERHA with a full load of pax and still far from shore they realized their fuel situation and the fact that they were not going to make it. They decided to "land on water" before the engines would run out of fuel.

[Mel Effluent]

NIGERIA, (February 10, 2016) - Bristow Helicopters (Nigeria) Limited has provided additional information following the February 3, 2016, precautionary landing by one of its helicopters.

On February 3, 2016, shortly after 10 a.m. local time, the crew of Bristow S76C++ helicopter 5N-BQJ elected to make a precautionary landing of the aircraft on water while en-route from an offshore location to Lagos. After landing, the crew assisted nine passengers to board the life rafts directly from the cabin. The aircraft was recovered quickly and is now in the custody of the Nigerian Accident Investigation Bureau (NAIB).

With assistance from other assets in the vicinity, including those of the Lagos State Emergency Management Agency (LASEMA), The Nigerian Maritime Administration and Safety Agency (NIMASA), National Emergency Management Agency (NEMA) and the offshore Marine Mutual Aid group, all onboard were safely returned to shore by 1700 the same day.

“I have personally thanked the crew and commended them highly for performing a well-executed precautionary landing and ensuring the safety of those onboard, which is of absolute and paramount importance to Bristow,” said Duncan Moore, Managing Director of Bristow Helicopters (Nigeria) Limited. “We also owe a huge debt of gratitude to the emergency response and rescue agencies, and countless others for their swift call to action. They have our utmost respect, admiration and gratitude.

“Bristow’s flight training programs are in compliance with the regulatory requirements of the Nigerian Civil Aviation Authority (NCAA) and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and provide comprehensive training for these types of scenarios. Our flight training programs are also designed in coordination with the aircraft manufacturer and we follow their recommendations for training our crews to operate the aircraft.”

Tolu Olubajo, Bristow Nigeria’s Director of Nigerian Affairs, said, “In recent years Bristow has trained more than 150 national pilots and 130 national engineers, and we firmly hope to be able to maintain this momentum. Bristow Helicopters was incorporated in Nigeria in 1969 and has long demonstrated its commitment to supporting Nigeria’s energy industry and local content policies. The all Nigerian crew of this aircraft received their ab-initio training at Bristow Academy in Titusville, Florida."

Alhamdu Haruna, Bristow Helicopters (Nigeria) Limited’s Quality & Safety Manager, said, “Bristow is cooperating fully with the Nigerian Accident Investigation Bureau (NAIB) as part of the process to establish the sequence events and probable cause leading to the precautionary landing. We’re also engaging fully with the Nigerian Civil Aviation Authority as they undertake their review of the S-76C series of helicopters at our operation. Like all airlines, Bristow is subject to regular and detailed regulatory oversight and welcomes the review that the NCAA is currently undertaking and will act quickly and decisively on any recommendations or directives forthcoming.”

Bristow remains confident in the S-76 series of aircraft. The helicopter has an enviable safety record spanning many decades with over 6.5 million flight hours to date.

Safety remains Bristow’s number one core value and our Target Zero safety culture underpins this commitment.

A magnificent example of management verbiage: it actually says nothing new at all.

[sacarson73]

tgvbhy15

Rumor - 'a currently circulating story or report of uncertain or doubtful truth'. 'Gossip, hearsay, talk, tittle-tattle, speculation, word'. This is a rumor ‘chat-shop’ and rumor can be hearsay but often is or should be laced with a foundation of truth. What you have just spouted is not only untrue, it’s absolute bull****. If you intend to spin a rumor, take some time to fact find so it it is laced with a decency of truth or facts. Fuel or it's planning has nothing to do with this incident and the aircraft never departed from PH. It’ll be better we stick to the ‘run dry’ debate, it’s at least academic as opposed to the rubbish insinuations and causative factors being espoused. I'll be better served reading the National Enquirer, at least some stories they publish are true!

[twisted wrench]

megan post # 102


Dexron III has been in use on CHC S76 series helicopters for over 30 years, most common brand we use today is Mobil 1 ATF . see from the C++ manual on approved oils for the main gear box ( applies the same to intermediate and tail).
I have been with the S76 in very cold climates and very hot I have never experienced any problems using this oil. In this many years of operating many S76´s all over the world I think is long enough to say it works just fine and the gearboxes normally make TBO and no defects are being reported by the overhaul or repair shops due to using this oil.


My only complaint is the smell of the oil is quite strong.


Lubricating oil, DODPRF-85734 (preferred)


MIL-L-23699,
MIL-L-21260,
Type I, Grade
30, or
Dexron III, ATF

[sacarson73]

'With assistance from other assets in the vicinity, including those of the Lagos State Emergency Management Agency (LASEMA), The Nigerian Maritime Administration and Safety Agency (NIMASA), National Emergency Management Agency (NEMA) and the offshore Marine Mutual Aid group, all onboard were safely returned to shore by 1700 the same day.'

They suddenly forgot all the assistance that Caverton provided. Sad, they were very grateful on the Bristow homepage.

“We would like to thank Mobil Producing Nigeria Unlimited, Caverton Helicopters Limited, Chevron Nigeria Limited, Nigerian Agip Oil Company, West African Ventures, Shell Nigeria Exploration and Production Company Limited, The Nigerian Civil Aviation Authority (NCAA), The Nigerian Accident Investigation Bureau, The Federal Airport Authority of Nigeria and The Nigerian Airspace Management Authority, for their immediate support in retrieving the passengers and crew from the inflatable life raft deployed by the helicopter."

[RyRy]

"They did, but did not do the proper fuel calculations."

Probably a fair bet that they didn't do a calculation at all.

[bh412tt]

Will this be treated as seriously as a wrong deck landing? Plan your flight and fly your plan................................:rolleyes:

[Nescafe]

All Bristow (Nigeria) S76 pilots are to receive simulator training before they can resume flying.

This is pointing more to a Human Factors than a MGB issue!

[roundwego]

Ah, yes. Stick them in a simulator for half an hour each, tick the box and all is cured.:rolleyes:

[gulliBell]

We do fuel system malfunctions in the simulator, but simulating running out of fuel due to something other than a fuel system malfunction is not something normally covered during expensive simulator time. We always cover emergency landing on water with offshore crews, and I would say about half the time they get it good enough, and all the time they come out better for the training. Assuming this crew had undergone such training they have benefited from it and it was money well spent because the water landing resulted in all passengers making it into a life raft.

[tasspook]

Given the utter shroud that has seemingly been thrown over this incident, in spite of the fact no one was injured or killed, one is left to speculate that the probable cause behind this event may quite probably be highly embarrassing for the operator.

And should this event happen to play out in a manner that not only myself, but many of the other posters on this thread are, I am sure, most certainly thinking, it will call into question and cast some seriously uncomfortable light on the most basic competency of some of this operator's air crew.

Given the complete absence of any meaningful information as to cause in the press release of 10 Feb, one might reasonably conclude an awful lot of spin is going to accompany whatever subsequent information gets released.

[gulliBell]

It may have been an interesting discussion in the life raft whilst waiting for rescue. Although rescue is probably not the right word; had there been a rescue might have implications for Target Zero.
There are instances of helicopter pilots running out of fuel and crashing in 8/8 blue sky after flying past a multitude of suitable landing sites, I just don't recall a ditching due to fuel exhaustion happening in a 2-pilot offshore twin-engine helicopter before. I'd be really surprised if that's what happened here because fuel quantity check is an item in every before take-off checklist I've ever seen. And if by some oversight it's missed in the before take-off check, it should be there in the after take-off and/or top-of-climb check lists as well. So if it turned out you discovered you didn't have enough fuel to get to the destination you just wear the embarrassment and head back to the departure point.
Don't want to be seen to be preaching here, just my way of thinking.

[Evil Twin]

Given the utter shroud that has seemingly been thrown over this incident,


I believe that this is a problem that is becoming more prevalent and it has implications that reach far further than what may have been otherwise innocuous events (other than in this case).

When there is no information it is human nature to speculate and surmise on what may have happened. This can lead to a kangaroo court of opinion and parties involved in an incident/event being tried and found guilty long before the facts are known.

[industry insider]

I think that the Simulator Training will be about Autopilot malfunctions, how not to mistake them for control malfunctions and how to fly Autopilot degraded or even Autopilot out.

[gulliBell]

The flight control malfunctions covered in the simulator are hydraulics, tail rotor control, and damper jam. The AP malfunctions don't behave like any of these. In any case, AP malfunctions are easy to diagnose. Just turn off each AP one at a time and see what happens. If the problem goes away then the AP system you just turned off is the culprit. Just leave it turned off and keep flying. The AP only has 5% control authority. There is no AP malfunction that would necessitate "land immediately" or result in loss of control.

[tgvbhy15]

This problem will be solved in a very simple way. Capt Jaiyeola (who is now a hero by the way, let's not forget) will be upgraded to the S92. This way she will never have to worry again about having enough fuel on board. See? Simple!!

[Nescafe]

There is no AP malfunction that would necessitate "land immediately" or result in loss of control.

No, but if as Industry Insider alludes to, you fail to diagnose it as an AP problem and decide it's a flight control issue, (given the fatal S76 crash recently) she might have been in a bit more of a hurry to get out? I guess it comes down to system knowledge, or lack thereof.

[212man]

The AP only has 5% control authority

Not sure that's correct for a C++. Typically the SAS will have 5% authority per actuator, with 10% authority in total, but the trim actuators - which the coupled modes will use - will have 100% authority.

[gulliBell]

If the helicopter does something you don't expect it to, like abrupt disturbance or repretitive oscillation or porpoising (usually in one axis only). Firstly, you still have full control over anything the AP might do wrong (which is the immediate action). Secondly, follow the checklist, there are no memory items with this. The end of the checklist will see one of the AP's turned off. Just tell the passengers there was a minor disturbance, corrective action has been taken, and continue flying to the destination. Certainly, if you somehow end up with both AP turned off, any S76 pilot will know the flight disturbances will be much worse :ugh:

Getting back to speculation mode, I see it far more likely to have just screwed up on the fuel rather than misdiagnosed an in-flight disturbance. The only control system malfunction that will put you in the water is hydraulics with permanent binding, or a control tube comes undone which will be obvious because you will have no sensible control at all. There was an S76 that might have ended up in the water when a disrupted bolt jamed the cyclic in a forward position. They were lucky that day, couldn't slow below 80 knots and they landed it at that speed. Now that was certainly a hero effort.

[gulliBell]

@212Man what I was trying to explain was the faulty AP will only exert 5% authority through a single linear actuator in the affected channel. And this will be ameliorated to some extent by the good AP channel telling its series actuator to do the opposite thing. The rotary trim actuator has 100% authority, but as soon as you hit the force trim release on the cyclic, or switch off the stick trims, the trim actuator is unpowered and thus taken completely out of the equation.

[Nescafe]

I see it far more likely to have just screwed up on the fuel rather than misdiagnosed an in-flight disturbance.

I'm not so sure, do you think they'd send every S76 pilot all the way to the Aberdeen sim for a lesson in fuel management?

[[email protected]]

Maybe now the spin is reducing and some elements of truth are appearing, we might see a few less 'Outraged from Nigeria' posts (which seem to have been deleted).:E

[gulliBell]

@Nescafe. Not to the sim for practicing fuel management. To the sim for practicing controlled landing on the water in-case they screw up on their fuel management. Do they have a C++ sim in Aberdeen?

[Nescafe]

Perhaps, but my sources are all saying misdiagnosed AP/control issues.

l'm sure the truth will out eventually, and yes they do.

[gulliBell]

I've never seen a crew screw up an AP malfunction which is why I'm sceptical in this instance.

What I often see is the crew will just ignore it, pretend nothing is wrong, and keep flying. However if they do decide to deal with it it is straight forward to end up with the correct result. Although in doing so they will often lose SA and end up somewhere geographically they didn't intend to be, or miss something else more important that should be dealt with first (like cancelling a fire tone without confirming a fire whilst continuing to deal with the AP problem).

However in saying all this it is a very long time since I've flown in Nigeria so if there is a Nigeria thing at play here is not factored into my thinking or recent experience.

[gulliBell]

Do the Aviation Advisors for the client companies ever back seat during the simulator training for their contract crews? I've only seen it happen once, I think it should happen more often.

[TIMTS]

Angry Nigeria posts or not, the guys that I know who are still in Nigeria after the purge had this to say: First thought was a fuel issue. Then they were told "autopilot deviation", then they were told what happened and not to spread it.
To me that doesn't sound like something airframe related, but more human factors. If they ran the thing out of fuel I'm not sure what the excuse would be. Piss poor planning, lack of situational awareness, no checklist use, no fuel planning on the Garmin...or maybe even the dreaded commercial pressure we hear so much about but that of course doesn't actually exist in a Target Zero environment.
If they had "autopilot deviation" and got un-commanded roll or pitch inputs one could be more understanding in light of the August accident. Maybe having this fresh in their minds clouded their judgement and pushed aircraft knowledge to a second rung below survival instinct.

I think what angers a lot of us expats who were there fairly recently, or are still there, is the feeling that this being a national crew it will be covered up, and the flight crew probably given some award and promoted to the 92. The fact that the media, of course hilariously unprofessional, has declared the female captain a hero, and alluding that had she been flying instead of Jay back in August the outcome would have been different is also pissing off quite a few.
But, this being Nigeria, these concerns can't be voiced without one being called racist, or being berated by the likes of Keke for being the evil backstabbing white guys. The fact that these concerns aren't born out of racism, but rather (in my case) almost a decade of working in Nigeria is obviously invalid.
And for the record, the most racist people I have ever met are the Nigerians themselves...(and no..not all of them)

[industry insider]

Gullibell

We all know the obvious way to isolate and diagnose an AP issue. But as Nescafe says (and obviously knows or has been briefed by BHNL) the issue appears the crew may not know the AP like you do and combined with the Harmattan causing poor visibility, it seems that they "talked" themselves into the need for a ditching.

[212man]

Do they have a C++ sim in Aberdeen?

Yes, in the same hall as the S92 and EC225.

[imuney]

When I raised my concern about the level of competency of the remaining Bristow Nigeria flight crews in an earlier post, myself and others who voiced similar opinions were called racist, chauvinist and backstabbers.

Every expat currently (or until recently) working at BHN must have seen this coming. With government forcing nationals into every 5N registered cockpit coupled with the reduction of foreign workforce to save a penny has become a valid safety issue. A quick trip to the Sim will not fix this problem.
There have been several close calls in recent past but certain individuals were able to swipe it under the rug. This one will not go away but one thing is certain, the crew in question will soon be stumbling up the ladder and become BM, CP or better like all the other screw ups that came before them!

[gulliBell]

I guess it's their train set and they can do with it what they want. Nigerian crews. Nigerian passengers. Nigerian clients. Nigerian registered aircraft. Nigerian regulator. Can't begrudge them wrecking a few carriages in the train set from time-to-time and reacting however they wish to react about it.

[helipiloto]

I agree with TIMTS and imuney.
This will all be covered up and the female national crew of BQJ will come out on top. BHNL will take some BS meassures to please the NCAA. Nigerians will continue to take control of BHNL while getting rid of the expats remaining. However, with the price of oil now cheaper than a KFC family bucket and BRS stock price fast approaching single digits, their party, I'm afraid, won't last too much longer...

[imuney]

The question is will Exxon, ENI, Total, Chevron, Addax and possibly Shell continue putting their employees on such a train?

[Sir Korsky]

Sounds like the tower diversification program being enforced by the FAA. Ability unimportant when you have boxes to tick.

[malabo]

Without appearing to trade racism for sexism (jeez, these new protocols are more dangerous than combat), but didn't another Bristow crew ditch a perfectly good helicopter, at night, offshore, full of passengers and without liferafts, because the commander thought something didn't "feel" right. In the North Sea a few years ago, between the UK and Netherlands. I saw the pictures right here on PPRUNE.

Maybe the navel-gazing by Bristow should go deeper than just Nigeria. What did that incident have in common with this one?

[Bravo73]

Without appearing to trade racism for sexism (jeez, these new protocols are more dangerous than combat), but didn't another Bristow crew ditch a perfectly good helicopter, at night, offshore, full of passengers and without liferafts, because the commander thought something didn't "feel" right. In the North Sea a few years ago, between the UK and Netherlands. I saw the pictures right here on PPRUNE.

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/253255-helicopter-down-north-sea-dutch-sector.html

[cpt]

Hi GulliBell,

Trying to figure out what could make me decide to ditch in this particular situation. Peharps a DAFCS or flight control malfunction, like a damper jam on the collective control, requiring a force of around 60 lbs to break the weak link or else an abnormal friction (as I recently have experienced on the rotor mast spherical bearing) can cause a restriction in this control, and may be misinterpreted as a servo failure.
Normally such a servo failure must be indicated by a "servo light" but tragic past events ( i.e the "baltic sea" accident) have proved that it may not always be the case.
In this situation, don't you think the decision to perform a safe forced landing when still with a limited control, becomes an option ?

[pilonrock]

Well it's not at all surprising they ran out of fuel . A very junior mistake! This is why under normal industry standards you need many years PIC single engine time! Perhaps BHNL needs to start treating Nigerian pilots the rest of the way the world functions ! Pay your dues then you get to fly the big stuff!!


Spoiled rich kids !!!

[gulliBell]

@cpt. Yes. If there is binding in the flight controls it is a sensible decision to land immediately.

[tgvbhy15]

Rumor has it that Joe Johnston will be fired from Head of Flight Ops and Eric Adevokai will take his spot. Bye Oh!

[HeliComparator]

What I find interesting is that these days on PPRuNe, threads aimed at accident prevention eg the recent one about automation issues, attract very sparse contributions from a very limited number of contributors. Whereas following an actual accident (or "landing on water", if you like) every man and his dog has an opinion they want to publish. Says it all really.

[MamaPut]

HC,
Maybe it's because a number of the people who have posted on this thread just want to use it to bash their company and the people they smile at every day at work and backstab every evening on their computers, but they can't do that so easily on a thread about technical issues (possibly due to a lack of knowledge, who knows?). :ugh:
Wouldn't it be funny if Keke were Eric in real life? :E

[bh412tt]

What ever happened, I was not there. No one would land in the open ocean lightly, there has to be a good reason. After 41 years of flying offshore for various companies, I can tell you that Bristow is as good as it gets. Let's find the reason and move on. We have all been in situations where we landed with a whole lot of less fuel then we intended. S**t happens.:rolleyes:

[tasspook]

What I find interesting is that these days on PPRuNe, threads aimed at accident prevention eg the recent one about automation issues, attract very sparse contributions from a very limited number of contributors. Whereas following an actual accident (or "landing on water", if you like) every man and his dog has an opinion they want to publish. Says it all really. Or, depending on the thread, most posters worth their salt are clever enough to know when to stay away from a never-ending, circular argument/debate kept alive by people who can't decide in what order autopilot buttons should be pushed during flight.......and knowing full well it is only a matter of time before the button pushing sequence reverts back to whatever it was before. :ugh:

Just sayin....

[pilonrock]

Rumor has it that Joe Johnston will be fired from Head of Flight Ops and Eric Adevokai will take his spot. Bye Oh!

Well that falls in line with getting rid of staff that have real commercial helicopter operations experience . Makes perfect sense. Really BNHL/BATS needs to speed up the process get rid of all expat engineering staff too. Break out the popcorn and watch the show !

[Torquetalk]

So an interim report by the Nigerian authority suggests the ditching was in response to problems with the AFCS. The commander decided to ditch rather than risk losing control of the aircraft presumably.


What was the full nature of the problem? Not known or public knowledge


Could a better decision been made; problem otherwise managed? Not enough information. But the situation was managed and nobody died.


So unless the report is a wack of lies, it would appear that a goodly number of malicious, racist, sexist and unprofessional posts here were wrong. Do you ask yourselves how this reflects upon all professional helicopter pilots when you can't wait to throw mud and question the competence of colleagues in such a public arena and in such an inbalanced and damaging way?


TT

[[email protected]]

So an interim report by the Nigerian authority suggests the ditching was in response to problems with the AFCS. The commander decided to ditch rather than risk losing control of the aircraft presumably. therein seems to lie the problem TT - was it a well-trained and professional crew taking wise precautions faced with an unusual or complex emergency? Or was it poor knowledge of the systems and lack of captaincy leading to an unnecessary water landing?

Until (and if) the full details of the malfunction are made public then the speculation will continue.

[Torquetalk]

Yes Crab;


The answer, is we don't know.


That some current and ex-pilots may have legitimate concerns and greviances is clear enough. But that is no excuse for some of the what has been posted here.


TT

[tasspook]

TT

Careful there slugger, I just had a look at the ECL for my C++ and um, there ain't no flight control/AFCS malfunction listed that includes ditching as part of the program. Hydraulics, ok fine, I get it.....but, and its a BIG but, the local authority saw fit to ground all their C++'s until further notice AND suddenly all these crews are supposedly getting a real quick trip to the sim??? At least that's the way I understand it.

So, no.....this one is no where near finished playing out yet. Something smells a wee bit fishy with this incident and I'm going to need an awful lot more data shoved in my face before I think otherwise.

[tistisnot]

Perhaps we need some better way to gauge the forum's take on posts, if digitally possible:

Fully agree
Tend to agree
Inclined to disagree
Totally disagree

Or whatever moderators come up with?! Might save some posts!

[gulliBell]

If an AFCS malfunction lead to a ditching I would be staggered. The S76 can fly perfectly well with both AP turned off, I've even seen some guys fly an ILS in IMC with both AP off (in the simulator).

The ECL says turn off the faulty channel. If by some remarkably bad luck there is a fault in both channels then turn them both off (or perhaps accept the least bad one engaged). If there is binding in the controls with both AP off then you do have a situation where ditching might be a course of action (the binding would be unrelated to anything AFCS).

Ditching with both AP off would be a tricky manoeuvre, you'd want an AP on for this even if it was bad in one channel.

There must be more to it than this. Hopefully something useful has been captured on the FDR because bench testing all the AFCS components/sensors would probably be pointless after salt water immersion.

[Brother]

So an interim report by the Nigerian authority suggests the ditching was in response to problems with the AFCS.

Can you post a link?

[gulliBell]

Nothing posted on the AIB website yet.

[helimutt]

What ever happened, I was not there. No one would land in the open ocean lightly, there has to be a good reason. After 41 years of flying offshore for various companies, I can tell you that Bristow is as good as it gets. Let's find the reason and move on. We have all been in situations where we landed with a whole lot of less fuel then we intended. S**t happens.

bh412tt, im not so sure thats accurate. only those who poorly planned their flight and necessary fuel requirements, would end up in that situation. I have only once in my life seen me land with 1 gal fuel showing on a guage (r22) and no I wasnt comfortable and made it known. A long time ago. CPL flight test. And the examiner kept telling me it was fine, he just wanted to do one more thing. I was quite vocal and then demanded we return to dispersal. Landed with fuel light on and I was p*ssed off. I fully expected to fail my test but I didnt, but not before I got told it was his discretion etc etc. The guy was a pr*ck as far as I was concerned.

Anyway, I think you need to reword your statement "we have all landed with a whole lot less fuel than we intended" because 99.999% of all pilots i've flown with have been totally professional and we've never been in that situation. Sorry to p&ss on your parade.

Makes you wonder about the standards of some pilots if thats your take after 41 years offshore.

[EESDL]

Have to agree with Helimutt.often we hear of such attitude and sentiment - "there by the Grace of God go I" etc etc
NOOOOO!
It's as if it's accepted all because you have been caught out yourself.
Whether O&G or helilanes - decision making and Captaincy is the same - regardless of how your employer behaves.
Maybe our profession will start to be seen in a better light and not taken advantage of by those that can when people realise that not everyone flies like they do or has the same cavalier attitude to safety.
We are not talking about going to war here - we are talking about a commercial operation taking people to work because it is deemed safer and more cost effective than using a boat.

Ignore punctuation/grammar as fingers too big for iPad which does not allow me to correct.

[MamaPut]

I have just checked the Nigerian AIB website and there's no report as yet on this accident (nor would one expect there to be given that it's a Saturday).

gullibell
The S76 can fly perfectly well with both AP turned off
Ditching with both AP off would be a tricky manoeuvre
So which one is it? :E

[malabo]

FAA MMEL. Autopilots are a C item, 3 days. Unless you are IMC in which case you need at least 1 working. So if you made it back to shore with both AP's turned off, your engineer could sign the tech log with an MEL deferral and you could go back out and fly passengers in VMC conditions for the next three days.

Now you could have operations restrictions against this, but the OEM and FAA think it is fine, and frankly I would question the competence of any pilot that could not fly with both AP's turned off. Pretty common exercise in the Canadian world.

Binding? Anybody fly a Bell 407 with the hydraulics turned off? Sometimes you need some arm strength, HR take note when hiring pilots.

[tgvbhy15]

What? Hire experienced expats vs freshmen local pilots? Don't you know that is racist?! Besides, local pilots cost us 250,000 USD a peace. Must put them to work and get our money back. And if they stand out and show their talent by performing such feats as making "precautionary water landings" and help us achieve our Target Zero objective, these talented few will be fast tracked all the way to the top!

[Sir Korsky]

The S76 can fly perfectly well with both AP turned off


Picking a 76 into the hover with both APs off - you'll only do that once.:uhoh::\

[gulliBell]

Yep. Which is why I said that ditching an S76 with both AP turned off would be a tricky manoeuvre. It flies without AP perfectly well, but it can get wobbly close to the surface below translation or in the hover. I see pilots take-off with the AP's turned off all the time, I don't recall anybody losing control in wobbly mode. I've never seen anybody attempt a ditching in wobbly mode, and I haven't tried it myself either. I think safe to assume in the Bristow instance the AP were on during the ditching manoeuvre. Hopefully the AP were turned off at some stage when they were diagnosing an AFCS malfunction.

[Torquetalk]

The S76 is certainly flyable without APs. But there is a big difference between an examiner switching the APs off under stabilised conditions and seeing how much instability the pilot can add to the situation, or even picking up with them switched off (marginally better than trying to pick up whilst still in idle), and the APs having a well-earned if untimely vacation during flght. Things can go pear shaped pretty rapidly when that happens.


It is not yet known in detail what happened to this crew. But IF it turns out to be an overreaction to an AFCS fault, the recent loss-of-control fatal might have had an important bearing in influencing the response as has already been said.


And if it turns out that an insufficiency in training or expereince may have influenced events, there will be a time to bemoan that. But training and experience are not colour or gender factors. And spreading rumours about fuel starvation and naming the captain is just low. As has already been said, didn't happen with any of the North Sea incidents.




Malabo,
Are you saying that you think it is safe to defer AFCS maintenance on double AP failure for up to three days whilst continuing to fly passengers offshore? VMC offshore can very often be IMC in all but name, so accepting some VMC maintenance exception rule and flying without SAS is hard to follow. Do you fly a type that is benign without SAS? I don't think there have been many people keen to get ride of it on an S76.

[gulliBell]

@Tourquetalk..wasn't the pilot named in the Nigerian newspaper before being mentioned by name in this topic?

[Torquetalk]

Yes, I think so. But why repeat it here? don't see any decency in it myself.

[gulliBell]

@malabo is correct. The S76 can be despatched for VFR with an MEL deferral on both AFCS inoperative. It always falls under the pilot prerogative not to accept an MEL defect.

As for the arguments about, VFR offshore can be very much IMC in all but name, that would be a minefield to explain or defend at a coronial enquiry. Very easy to legally blame a pilot decision for operating to VFR procedures when the weather is less than VMC. Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

[industry insider]

From Gullibell

Yep. Which is why I said that ditching an S76 with both AP turned off would be a tricky manoeuvre. It flies without AP perfectly well, but it can get wobbly close to the surface below translation or in the hover. I see pilots take-off with the AP's turned off all the time, I don't recall anybody losing control in wobbly mode. I've never seen anybody attempt a ditching in wobbly mode, and I haven't tried it myself either. I think safe to assume in the Bristow instance the AP were on during the ditching manoeuvre. Hopefully the AP were turned off at some stage when they were diagnosing an AFCS malfunction.

The AP / AFCS didn't "fail". It was a relatively small anomaly. The decision to ditch a serviceable helicopter is therefore very puzzling when it flies perfectly well AP out with a little extra concentration.

The aircraft is a total loss, this counts as an accident for Bristow. 2 in 6 months. Their clients will be asking difficult questions.

[gulliBell]

There have been some (perhaps) tongue-in-cheek, (perhaps) flippant remarks in the forum about the crew likely to be considered for promotion for a safe job well done. Out of curiosity, what happened to the BHNL crew of 5N-BMM (crash at Port Harcourt in 2011)? Did they get promoted, returned to duty, retired? Just wondering.

@industry insider: yes, of course the aircraft is a write off, that happened the moment it turned turtle in salt water. Lifting it out of the water the way they did didn't help either. It would need a lot of spin not to describe such a write-off as anything but an accident. Not only concerned clients, I bet the insurer is feeling a little grumpy about it also. $250K BHNL investment to train a national crew (or whatever the number is) is cheap in comparison to the excess payable on a $7 million hull loss, plus insurance premium rises for years to come. Just saying.

[megan]

The S76 can be despatched for VFR with an MEL deferral on both AFCS inoperativeI think I'm correct in saying when PHI took delivery of their first 76s they didn't even have them fitted. Pilots are employed to work (fly), why make it easier for them. Same attitude still prevails in the FW world re fitting autopilots.

[gulliBell]

@megan. You are correct. AFCS was a customer option with early model S76A.

DDAFCS and FD mode operation leads to so much bewildering confusion in the cockpit sometimes I'm left to wonder whether crews are better off without it at all. I have seen the simulator crashed so many times simply because of mode confusion and wrong button pushing. Stick to hands on VFR flying and they're OK, give them options with buttons to push and it can rapidly turn to worms. Where divine intervention is relied upon in such situations never results in a successful outcome. Just saying, again.

[John Eacott]

@megan. You are correct. AFCS was a customer option with early model S76A.

Well, sort of. Sikorsky intended to make their own AFCS, which was to be Phase 3, but it never happened and we had Phase 1/2 SCAS only. Those customers who opted for the Phase 3 AFCS got their money back (I think) and the SPZ 7000 was certified instead.

So for the early formative S76 years there was only a SCAS, with two pilot requirement, yet it worked very well and showed what a stable IFR platform the S76 is.

[Geoffersincornwall]

... or, as we did at Air Hanson, opt for the HeliPilot. I think the SPZ7000 came along with the 'B' model but thinking back into the last century is taxying the grey matter a little too much to be sure.

G.

[gulliBell]

I just remember stories from the old timers back in the old days who used to tell me how easy I had it flying a 76 equipped with an autopilot because the ones they used to fly didn't have such a luxury.

[John Eacott]

And this little bit of grey matter is only put straight by reference to the old S76A Flight Training Manual! Sikorsky reference the Phase I/II and the (expected) Phase III as an AFCS, but it was only a SCAS. HeliPilot didn't come along until much later.

gulliBell, the S76 really was delightful to fly with Phase I/II as we didn't know any better! On an ILS that I was flying into Perth Dave Whyte reached over, tapped the AI and declared it was broken because attitude had been unchanged all the way from the OM :cool:

[TipCap]

In my day, the Hiller 12E, Whirwind s3 and 206 didn't have any stabilisation at all ;) :ok:

Very tongue in cheek

TC

[gulliBell]

...and once I was coming in from offshore in an old A model with Capt [redacted] and he turned off both the generators and the battery and the old girl still hummed along nicely without the slightest disturbance what-so-ever. If I remember, with one HP out you had to slow down, but with 2 out you could still maintain warp speed to ensure you weren't the 2nd last ship home and thus avoid warming a seat in the crew room until the last ship crossed the coast.

[helimutt]

dangerous words :E but my view is that if you can't fly an S76 with both AP's out you maybe shouldn't be flying one. It is well within the capabilities of any decent pilot. We used to do AP out training from take off to landing so it isn't beyond possible. I've even had a TRE 'accidently' take out both ap's just as I lifted from a rig deck!!!! Always better to have a little warning tho.:{
In a two crew S76 if you think the person flying next to you needs a challenge, just switch off the collective trim switch and see how long it takes for them to notice and how they deal with it.(disclaimer:im not suggesting you do this without prior agreement and warning, oh and when finishd dont forget to switch back from SAS mode ;) ) :ok:

[HeliComparator]

Of course if it is a autopilot issue we don't yet know exactly what. I'll recount an incident we had on a AS332L some years ago: Approaching a rig the aircraft suddenly started to shake rhythmically. The crew felt there was something dire wrong with the rotor system and warned the pax that a ditching was possible, but in the event they carried on to the helideck. It eventually transpired that a vertical gyro had got a wobble on and this was, through the autopilot, putting in spurious rhythmic control inputs that emulated rotor imbalance.


So faced with a suspected main rotor failure or very serious issue, it is perhaps not too surprising that the crew didn't think of punching out the AP as one would prefer to have as much going for one as possible when dealing with an emergency, as opposed to making life more difficult by killing the AP. In this case it was all over fairly quickly due to their proximity to the rig but had it happened in open ocean, who know what they might have done. It is very easy to pass judgement in hindsight and from the comfort of the armchair, somewhat harder to get it right with a massive flood of adrenalin and near-panic!

[Democritus]

dangerous words :E but my view is that if you can't fly an S76 with both AP's out you maybe shouldn't be flying one.

Of course you shouldn't..... we took delivery of our S76A in July 1980 and it was flown manually, no SCAS or anything else fitted, from West Palm Beach to Conroe, Houston, to have the Sperry autopilot installed. No problem.

[Fareastdriver]

On the Sycamore you had a nine cylinder radial driving a rotor that had no autopilot, no hydraulics and a pair of trim wheels, lateral and fore & aft, that tensioned springs in the control runs to enable you to exercise what limited control authority you had. Imagine a 332L with the HYD AP out and you have a rough idea of the control forces. There was only one collective so if you where flying from the LHS you held the cyclic with the left hand and the central collective with the right. Occasionally, years later, on the 332L when I was a LHS captain flying the return leg, just to prove to myself that I was keeping up to speed I would do the final approach and landing with the HYD AP out using my left hand on the cyclic and my right hand on the RHS collective.
There were no complaints from either the front of the back.

The Whirlwind (S55 to the Colonials) had no autopilot, it did have hydraulics but no trim, either wheels or chinese hats. There was a friction device but the vast majority of pilots used to screw this right off so as to leave the stick free. This meant that if you let go of the cyclic it fell over and the aircraft followed it.
Amazingly this system lasted for about thirty years and nobody ever lost control.

So you come to the SK76. Take away the APs, trim, FMS and you have a basic helicopter similar to the Whirlwind. You can fly it VFR, IFR, hover over the ground and at a push winch people out of the sea. Wobbles are what used to be known as PIOs (pilot induced occillations). The only time, in my experience, when the 76 is difficult is if you have an engine failiure just before VTOSS. The torque, or lack of torque reaction can catch you out and you may have a couple of swings before you straighten it out.

It may well be that people who being paid to fly the aeroplane have got so many gizmos to fly it for them the they have lost the ability to actually fly it when it really matters.

[noooby]

How many PBA failures did you have with the old Phase 1/2? We still had them in the UK where I was working, but I know many people were allowed to fly without them.

Boy those things used to fail a lot!

[industry insider]

HC

So faced with a suspected main rotor failure or very serious issue, it is perhaps not too surprising that the crew didn't think of punching out the AP as one would prefer to have as much going for one as possible when dealing with an emergency, as opposed to making life more difficult by killing the AP. In this case it was all over fairly quickly due to their proximity to the rig but had it happened in open ocean, who know what they might have done. It is very easy to pass judgement in hindsight and from the comfort of the armchair, somewhat harder to get it right with a massive flood of adrenalin and near-panic!

According to information, the same autopilot issue was evident outbound but the crew landed on the rig without a problem and attempted to troubleshoot (hard to troubleshoot an AP issue with all that metal around and while stationary on a rig) Then after departure when the issue came up again decided to ditch.

One doesn't need a comfortable armchair to suggest what may have been done for an improved outcome.

[Brian Abraham]

HeliPilot didn't come along until much later.John, I did my conversion in November '80 and we had the Helipilot fit, think we may have been the first customer.

A question to those who may know, with the A model you had the ability to couple with only one system operational. The C model and 412 needed both systems operational to be able to couple. Certification change or what? Certainly made life more difficult.

[MamaPut]

industry insider
hard to troubleshoot an AP issue with all that metal around
Why, what difference would that make. The metal merely affects the yaw channel if they don't have DG selected for the rig landing.

[gulliBell]

Actually, troubleshooting the AFCS on the helideck was a sensible course of action if the crew suspected an AP problem. As all S76 pilots would know, the test is simple. Whilst on the ground just turn off both AP and press the TEST button on the autopilot controller. This Level 1 test checks the hardware and software considered to be flight critical. LVL-1 PASS or FAIL is shown on the AL-300 on completion. LVL-1 PASS and you're good to go, obviously (the test function is disabled by AOG logic which is why you need to do it on the ground). Any system malfunctions will be indicated with a code that you can refer to in the RFM for more detailed explanation.

If LVL-1 test FAIL whilst offshore, it would be sensible to shut down and seek advice from maintenance. I suspect that advice would be to disembark the passengers and ferry it back to the maintenance base (and there would be paperwork necessary for that to happen I would expect).

[gulliBell]

@Brian Abraham. Correct. That is a good question for Nick Lappos. I don't know the answer either, suspect probably a certification thing (but your A model had Sperry and the 76/412 had Honeywell, right??)

[Thai Pom]

Honeywell purchased Sperry in 1986

[gulliBell]

Yep. But Brian's 1980 build S76A had a Sperry autopilot system and his 1995 build S76C had a Honeywell autopilot system, 2 completely different hardwares.

[tgvbhy15]

http://youtu.be/-AE1PTAfRms

-AE1PTAfRms

[Boudreaux Bob]

Knowing something about the old days of AATC at the West Palm Beach P&W Factory when the S-76's were first coming online, I can clear some things up maybe.

The Sikorsky Autopilot system, Hamilton Standard, went through Phase I and II very quickly but had some issues getting Phase III installed.

Sperry with its Helipilot system became the preferred system and was installed at Conroe, Texas.

Air Log, now the Bristow picked their 76A's up with just a bare VFR panel with no Stability system of any kind. Some went to the Sperry factory for installs but most went to work in the Gulf of Mexico doing Revenue Flights for quite some time before making it to the Sperry facility.

The Hamilton Standard system in time could have been a very nice setup but Sperry won the market.

Anyone that thinks a 76A is impossible to fly with just "bare knuckles" does not know what they are talking about or as has been said, should not be flying a helicopter.

The 76 is "slick" and "greasy" to handle with no Stability system but with a bit of practice is no worse than a great many other helicopters. The 76 is particularly quick in roll and does not like to decelerate being a helicopter that likes to go fast.

[tasspook]

Anyone that thinks a 76A is impossible to fly with just "bare knuckles" does not know what they are talking about or as has been said, should not be flying a helicopter.

The 76 is "slick" and "greasy" to handle with no Stability system but with a bit of practice is no worse than a great many other helicopters. The 76 is particularly quick in roll and does not like to decelerate being a helicopter that likes to go fast. This could not be more true.


yaw channel was the problemAre we to understand then that a yaw channel malfunction somehow escalated into a ditching?

[gulliBell]

I just find it impossible to believe that anything could go that seriously wrong in AFCS yaw that would be more perilous to keep flying compared with the peril inherent in putting it into the water. But I wasn't there. Hopefully I'll be surprised.

[tasspook]

gulliBell

I'm with you on this one, something does not add up here. Hopefully we'll all be surprised, but with the complete lack of ANY type of meaningful detail relating to this event making it into the public domain thus far, it is becoming clear enough that great effort is being made to keep a water-tight lid on whatever actually happened.

[[email protected]]

One of the first things I and many others teach dealing with TR malfunctions is to disengage the AFCS in yaw and deselect the yaw servo (if possible) in order to confirm or deny that you have a real TR control problem rather than a hyd or stab issue.

Surely this is basic stuff and ditching an aircraft because you think you might have a TR problem but haven't done any diagnosis is seriously unprofessional.

[gulliBell]

I also teach this stuff. The only TR malfunction that requires "land immediately" is loss of drive to the TR. Loss of drive to the TR is the most obvious malfunction to diagnose in the whole book of malfunctions. We know they didn't have a loss of drive to the TR, because if they did we'd know about it because that is serious need to know stuff for the whole industry. Of the other TR malfunctions, and there are 3 of them, the technique to diagnose and land is basically the same for all of them, and none require "land immediately". In teaching this stuff I find many trainees don't even realise they have a TR malfunction until they are getting setup for the landing. I think reasonable to assume we are not looking at a TR malfunction of any sort here.

So something has happened to get their attention. Hard-over in the yaw channel of one of the AP will get your attention for sure. Again, this is very easy to diagnose. Just look at the Yaw channel series actuator position indicator. It will be all the way to the left or right. Hunting in that channel will also be evident by the twitching response of the aircraft and the position indicators.

Anyway. We can speculate until the cows come home. Nothing makes sense yet. I hope it will, eventually. I would like to learn something from this so I can teach it to my trainees.

[rotor-rooter]

In the absence of any information from a credible official source, time to read the Nigerian press. I have nothing more than a passing interest in this incident, based on my knowledge and experience of offshore S76 operations in a previous life.

Crash Of Bristow Helicopter: Flight Crew Absolved Of Blame | Sahara Reporters (http://saharareporters.com/2016/02/15/crash-bristow-helicopter-flight-crew-absolved-blame)

In the event of an accident or serious incident, there is often a very limited amount of factual information that can be released. That said, it is always important to ensure that appropriately accurate facts can be updated and released to establish the fundamental events leading to the accident/incident - especially if there are no fatalities and the human accounts can be verified. The aim is not to try and identify the cause of the accident or to short-cut the investigation, but to ensure you have continued credibility and control of the facts regarding the situation, whilst ensuring appropriate respect for everyone involved. It needs to be done in conjunction with the Investigating Authority, local Government agencies, manufacturer, (as appropriate) and any other credible resource that should be included in a statement of fact.

In the event you miss the opportunity, the void will be filled with conjecture, assumptions, nonsense, lies, hatred, sour grapes, axe-grinding and suspicions of a cover up (for those so inclined).

When the Nigerian AIB is releasing information to the local media and the Operator isn't releasing the same information to the global media, something is wrong in the communication process.

Your customers and employees continue to fly in these aircraft, and deserve some accurate information for themselves and their families to assure them that their safety is your primary concern - not an accident count. The passengers in the back of your helicopters have already undergone HUET training and understand the implications very clearly.

It might appear that the corporate communications team may be experts at providing information to shareholders and other corporate customers, but need to learn a bit more (try involving your flight crews) in dealing with an actual incident of this nature. The initial press release describing a "water landing" by a non-amphibious helicopter (utilizing emergency floats) were utterly incredulous and sent entirely the wrong message in the initial information. It is similar to another major operator that attempted to categorize a machine rolling over and another self destructing as it hit a lamp post as not accidents because the helicopter wasn't flying!

Here's a reference on ditching for your future benefit. Ditching: Rotary Wing Aircraft - SKYbrary Aviation Safety (http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Ditching:_Rotary_Wing_Aircraft)

And finally, every operator has an emergency response plan. Maybe it's time to re-evaluate it and compare it to the free guide that IATA produces, which contains some equally relevant considerations about Social media and even PPRuNe specifically.

https://www.iata.org/publications/Documents/social-media-crisis-guidelines-april2013.pdf

And just in case you're wondering (and still reading), yes, I have unfortunately been through all this before in real life.

I'm glad there were no serious injuries, and genuinely hope that appropriate steps can be taken to ensure no repetition of a similar event (for whatever reason) and that the everyone involved can get on with their careers and get over some of the particularly vile and demeaning things that have been said on here and elsewhere.

[Nescafe]

I just find it impossible to believe that anything could go that seriously wrong in AFCS yaw that would be more perilous to keep flying compared with the peril inherent in putting it into the water. But I wasn't there. Hopefully I'll be surprised.

Think of it like this, the crew are flying along when there is some sort of AP/Stability issue. The flight controls all of a sudden are heavier/stiffer, the first thought which springs to mind is that of 5N-BGD which suffered flight control issues before it ditched with the loss of 6 lives. Panic sets in and their mind has already decided (incorrectly) that they may have the same problem and decide to ditch before losing control. The actual issue is not fully identified/resolved.

I think its called getting into a 'mind set.'

[tasspook]

I think its called getting into a 'mind set.'

As just one of a myriad of other things, a Commander gets paid the big bucks to precisely NOT do that.

[Nescafe]

As just one of a myriad of other things, a Commander gets paid the

Very true.

[Revolutionary]

a Commander gets paid the big bucks


It has no bearing at all on this incident but I feel it is only fair to point out that while an expat commander gets paid big the bucks, a Nigerian commander gets paid the slightly smaller bucks.

[tistisnot]

Revolutionary

It is only fair to point out that your comment is totally irrelevant ....... the phrase being paid the big bucks is purely in relation to the co-pilot who is normally being paid less, and who has less responsibility.

[GoodGrief]

...while an expat commander gets paid big the bucks, a [Nigerian] [local] commander gets paid the slightly smaller bucks.
Anything wrong with that ?

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Revolutionary,

Wasn't that discrepancy addressed and rectified some time ago ? There was a lot of discontent and discussion before I left and I was under the (possibly wrong) impression that the pay/allowance gap had been closed.

Of course I stand to be corrected by those with more current knowledge.

NEO

[tgvbhy15]

So nigerian captains think the following conditions are just totally unfair:
Day 1: the company (Bristow) spends 250,000 USD to give you a "free ride" towards becoming a professional helicopter pilot. All expenses paid. Takes you about 18 months to get your licences.
Step 2: Company pays for you to get a twin engine helicopter type rating in which you will fly as an FO.
Step 3: About 4 years have passed since day 1 ( the first day of training) and you are promoted to Captain in Offshore CAT in a twin engine helicopter carrying passengers. You make a net monthly salary between 6500 to 8000 USD and you see your family every day. You barely have any experience (but you think you do), you are working at home in your country with the possibility of seeing your children grow up, and you make a salary which in any country around the world would be considered very high.
Yet when you see an expat pilot and you find out what he makes you become very upset because it is more than you do. But you forget to see that this expat pilot has been flying (on average) more than 25 years, has close to 10 thousand flying hours on helicopters, has flown many (at least 6) different types of helicopters in a wide variety of operations, and has to spend at least half of his life (or more) away from home and his loved ones, missing birthdays, Christmasses, important events, deaths of relatives and friends, etc, etc.
I'll tell you what: Why don't you go and travel the world, get a job in another country and fly there for a few years doing different types of helicopter operations (other than flying all day, every day, in a straight line to and from the same rig in - almost daily - VFR weather) and get some experience? Maybe then, when you have missed a few birthdays, have had a few close calls, and pass the 10,000 hr mark, maybe then you can come back to Nigeria and demand better pay for yourself!!

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

tgvbhy15,

I don't understand where the vitriol is coming from or why ? North Sea pilots earn around about the same as airline pilots; they and many American and other nationality pilots exercise their freedom of choice to work in their home countries rather than work in West Africa.

Many, maybe even the majority of them were trained by their respective governments at no cost to themselves, rather the taxpayer footed the bill.

Surely the issue of seeing families/home life etc is a personal choice ? If not, then what is it ? Money ? In which case this is a non issue. Also, what relevance does this have to the incident ?

NEO

[Fareastdriver]

I, and the other expat captains used to earn a shedload of money compared to the Chinese captains, including those with EASA licences as well as their own.

Never any problems. They kept waving money in front of my face after I had retired so as to keep bringing me back.

[tasspook]

It is only fair to point out that your comment is totally irrelevant ....... the phrase being paid the big bucks is purely in relation to the co-pilot who is normally being paid less, and who has less responsibility.

Essentially, yes, although the point of my saying about how Commanders should not get into a "mindset" was to:

1. Keep the discussion focused on the Commander's decision making abilities, regardless of nationality; and

2. Further explore the ways and means by which this particular operator selects, trains and assesses its Commanders prior to releasing them into the big, bad world.


The workers and loved ones of those workers have a right to know the truth about the quality, caliber and competence of those charged with their safety after getting airborne.

[gulliBell]

I fail to understand how crew decision making in this accident may have been influenced by the previous accident.

Unless I'm mistaken, the crew of the 5N-BGD accident had no prior indication of anything wrong. They were just flying along in the cruise and instantly the helicopter went wildly out of control and 12 seconds later crashed. The investigators quickly worked out what caused the crash, and the servo input control rods of every S76 world wide were inspected to make sure they were as they should be.

This time around the crew had symptoms to give them some clues as to possible causes, plenty of time to think about it and take action, and a helicopter that was flying under control, all-be-it with some AFCS induced yaw twitching (from what we understand). I would have thought the crew would have been comforted by the knowledge that the aircraft had been thoroughly examined and what caused the last crash was unlikely to be playing out again (because the symptoms were different and the inspections had been done).

Dunno. Again, we shall wait.

[Nescafe]

Panic sets in

I think the mistake you're making is transposing your level of experience and ability into that cockpit.

[tistisnot]

Tasspook ...... my comment about big bucks was directed at Revolutionary only.

[gulliBell]

$8000 USD net/month salary, seriously ?

Where does this white boy sign up?

[Nescafe]

>US$10000 net per month, for a white boy..

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

It's a bit of a shame that this Captain has been condemned before any official version of events are released.
There have been plenty of "white" boys (and a girl) that have put a helicopter in the sea when it ought not to be there. Picking on this Captain due to her nationality is not fair or right.

Even if the official reports states that there was no real need to ditch ( which it never will), at least the Captain made a decision based on what both crew were experiencing and that is alright by me. Better that than to continue until the helicopter falls apart, which has also happened both there and in Newfoundland.

Gullibell, I completely disagree with you that the fatal 76 accident would not be on the minds and influence this crew if they had control problems. But I guess you can make these one dimensional statements from the comfort of your own armchair.

[tasspook]

tistisnot

I know, I just liked the way you phrased your response.

DOUBLE BOGEY

Nobody is condemning anyone, or at least they shouldn't be. But, in the wake of this particular event, it is quite likely there are going to be some very difficult questions asked to not only some individuals, but the organisation itself.

As to whether the previous accident influenced this crew's decision to ditch, I'll save my thoughts on that for later, because that potentially opens up a whole other can of worms.

[Geoffersincornwall]

I have said before on PP that I am not happy with the sample of the global pilot workforce that have passed through my hands. Whether or not this sample of close to 400 AW139 pilots is statistically significant is not for me to say. All I can comment on is the facts as I see them.

The vast majority of those pilots had what is necessary to be called competent, that is to say their potential to be competent was detectable but their lack of a decent foundation and a testing regime lacking rigour had not enabled them to realise this potential.

The situation was characterised by an ability to do the 'day job' to a high enough standard to escape censure but when things went wrong or the task varied from the norm their weaknesses were exposed.

We should not condemn any of our community for failings in their preparation for the tasks they take on. Any failings must be laid at the door of the system that designs and regulates their training. We are all capable of making such mistakes and I frequently reflect on the many I have made in what is a career approaching 50 years. What you need after making a mistake is support and understanding but sometimes our prejudices get in the way of delivering that degree of empathy. If this young woman made a mistake she can be happy that there were no lives lost as a result. There are many out there who do not have such consolation.

G. :ok:

[212man]

The situation was characterised by an ability to do the 'day job' to a high enough standard to escape censure but when things went wrong or the task varied from the norm their weaknesses were exposed.


Commonly characterised by the question "6,000 hours of experience, or one hour of experience done 6,000 times......"

[cpt]

Hi Gullibell,

Once again, if something makes me believe that the integrity of the basic main rotor flight controls is affected (rigging or unknown hydraulic malfunction) I would consider a safe forced ditching as long as I can keep the control of the flight. The recent accidents history would certainly help me to take this decision.
The yaw control is less critical (except a drive shaft failure of course) and would rather lead me to decide a running landing on a long runway.

As 76 flyers, I hope we'll quickly know what has happened, if only for the sake of the return of experience.

[gulliBell]

@cpt. No argument there. But having seen every AFCS malfunction many times over in a C/C+/C++ I've never felt the need to do anything other than what's printed in the ECL.

@DOUBLE BOGEY. Yes, for sure, one dimensional comfort of my armchair no doubt, and a liberal dose of crystal ball gazing as well. But if I was in the cockpit at the time then obviously I'd be in the less comfortable 3 dimensional space, and I'd have a more informed opinion.

But I'm not paid the big bucks of an offshore PIC. I just live off a few meagre crumbs that might happen to fall off the feasting table. But it is my job to make sure those offshore PIC are competent to do what they do for the next 12 months of their career. Granted, some of the possible malfunctions are not in the ECL. That's where systems knowledge and experience and problem solving skills comes into the equation for those on the big bucks charged with the responsibility of PIC.

http://www.punchng.com/aib-to-send-bristow-helicopters-black-boxes-to-uk/

[MamaPut]

The total failure of Bristow pubic relations relations department to have said anything meaningful about this 'water landing' (presumably the aircraft was on fixed floats filched from a Caravan), really does make them look like a bunch of dicks :\ . How can one take one of the world's largest helicopter operators or its so-called Target Zero seriously when after a fairly serious incident resulting in the write off of an airframe, it maintains an almost total wall of silence? It seems that it should add a new Target Zero - Zero information :ugh:

[Helinaut]

MamaPut, thank you! :D:D:D

[Sir Korsky]

flying a S76 with no APs up is certainly within the capabilities of any ATP holder. However, my billionaire passenger would not be impressed with the ride quality that's for sure. It would most certainly be a " can I have a word ? " day. :(

[rotor-rooter]

Some Corporate speak here.

"Bristow Helicopters Limited on Wednesday said it would welcome an industry-led external audit of its operations in Nigeria following the controlled ditching of one of its choppers in Lagos."

However

"It explained that the expectation of such initiative would also extend to include the audit of other similar entities active in the Nigerian oil and gas industry."

Quite how the problems experienced by one Operator should force everyone else into an audit is extremely difficult to comprehend and is probably a non-starter. This is getting very hard to believe.

Helicopter incident: Bristow seeks external audit of its operations (http://www.ngrguardiannews.com/2016/02/helicopter-incident-bristow-seeks-external-audit-of-its-operations/)

[gulliBell]

Are the BHNL aeronautical experience requirements for a direct hire expatriate PIC the same as for a national FO to PIC upgrade applicant?
Where does the national direct hire straight out of the Bristow Academy ab-initio program get the P1 experience to eventually hold an ATP? Do you need an ATP to fly as PIC in a 2-crew S76 in Nigeria, or does a CPL cover it?
Presumably the national hire comes out of the Bristow Academy with less than 100 hours P1 and they go straight into a couple of years of P2 time. Great experience, but the next step in career progression should be single-engine command time. One hour repeated a few thousand times as a co-pilot grand total everything experience is not a breadth of experience for the making of a well-rounded offshore helicopter PIC.
In Macau we had a similar national ab-intio training program, sponsored by the company. When the program first kicked off the company management was sprouting that the cadet pilots will be flying as Captain after 2 years. As far as I know, not one of the national cadet pilots ever made it to PIC in that operation. They had to leave the company, go elsewhere (some went to BHNL I think), gain additional experience, and sure, some of them then had it all together enough for the PIC upgrade.
I'm curious how the BHNL national training program might be doing things differently to get their direct-hire co-pilots to PIC status when others have tried and not succeeded.

[tistisnot]

gullibell

Look no further than OGP Aircraft Management Guidelines Appendix 5B INITIO & low experience pilot training & progression for multi-crew offshore helicopter pilots. Restricted release to line after 273 hours. Commander with 2000 hours, including 1000 PICUS, after 4 years ..... and yes it has been done satisfactorily around the world.

Does not mean to say I do not identify with Target Zero ...... Information!

[gulliBell]

@tistisnot: Great, thanks for that reference. Does <100 PIC and 1000 PICUS qualify an applicant for an ATP in the ICAO world?

I just read the OGP Aircraft Management Guidelines; yep, it all seems to be covered there. 2000 total 1000 PIC, and the rest of it. Comes as a surprise. When I started out under the Exxon rules it was (from memory) 3500 PIC minimum for offshore Captain. Anyway, dilution to what it is now is what it is. Now I'm enlightened on the subject. Thanks.

[tistisnot]

I have only done 14 years with Exxon ...... but they always mirrored OGP - 3000 hrs for ME >5700 kg 2000 hrs for ME <5700 kgs, and 1500 hrs SE.

[gulliBell]

I'm talking 23+ years ago...3500 PIC was required for multi <5700kg, plus a few earth orbits in the space shuttle, I think.

[MamaPut]

It seems Bristow imagine that this will be forgotten as with other incidents they'd rather everyone forgot about if they fail to make any meaningful comment.

Maybe it's time we all dredged back into the recesses of our minds and started publicising all the 'forgotten' incidents and started asking questions on the many global social media sites until they actually say something other than human remains department gibberish :ugh:

[HeliComparator]

@tistisnot: Great, thanks for that reference. Does <100 PIC and 1000 PICUS qualify an applicant for an ATP in the ICAO world?

I just read the OGP Aircraft Management Guidelines; yep, it all seems to be covered there. 2000 total 1000 PIC, and the rest of it. Comes as a surprise. When I started out under the Exxon rules it was (from memory) 3500 PIC minimum for offshore Captain. Anyway, dilution to what it is now is what it is. Now I'm enlightened on the subject. Thanks.

I really can't see how endless hours of buzzing around in something like an R22 could be of any use at all in preparing one for offshore command. Personally I did some P1 time in a Bell 47 whilst getting my CPL(H) - definitely much less than 100 hrs - and that was the last time I flew P1 until I got my ATPL(H) and command. Whilst I'll agree that doing the same 1 hr of offshore several thousand times isn't much better, what happens in reality in a company like BHL is that the up-coming P2 does lots of role playing training where he is acting as P1. Aviation is very role specific and training and experience out of role has limited use and, if all that is SPVFR, it can be counter-productive for that all-important MCC etc.

I recall one new chap who had about 5000 hrs SPVFR (yes 5 thousand) but he was one of the few people who was chopped from Aberdeen during line training.

[tgvbhy15]

Great idea Mama put!
You have my full support

[tgvbhy15]

In the meantime let's call things by their proper name. What has happened with this S76 (and the one last august) is an ACCIDENT and not an incident as it has been called throughout this thread. Attached is the definition of aviation accident:

http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Accident

[Copterline 103]

In the meantime let's call things by their proper name. What has happened with this S76 (and the one last august) is an ACCIDENT and not an incident as it has been called throughout this thread. Attached is the definition of aviation accident:

http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Accident

The focus should be on the cause of the accidents not on the consequences. The fact is that too many accidents has already been happened for S76 series helicopters.

The reason should be published, "why S76 series helicopters (Transport category certified helicopter) are coming suddenly unflyable". The is not new the issue for S76 series helicopters and this is not limited to Nigerian accidents.

In early times H-53 helicopters had similar accident scenarios and also lot H-53 were lost. Studying these accident reports together with S76 accident reports you are able to identify the root case.

The leading operators which have a lot this S76 series helicopters in daily operation "have own dog in fight" and the economical interests for existing fleet. This might be a reason for bypassing rational safety orientated decision making. Very sad!

[Fareastdriver]

what happens in reality in a company like BHL is that the up-coming P2 does lots of role playing training where he is acting as P1

Certainly happened when they was flying with me and others I knew.

'You fly it out and I'll fly it back-------unless I fall asleep in which case you're flying it back as well'

[tistisnot]

You were lucky, or more talented(!), better than being treated merely as a sack of potatoes!

[RyRy]

The focus should be on the cause of the accidents not on the consequences. The fact is that too many accidents has already been happened for S76 series helicopters.

The reason should be published, "why S76 series helicopters (Transport category certified helicopter) are coming suddenly unflyable". The is not new the issue for S76 series helicopters and this is not limited to Nigerian accidents.

In early times H-53 helicopters had similar accident scenarios and also lot H-53 were lost. Studying these accident reports together with S76 accident reports you are able to identify the root case

Care to elaborate? I don't think anyone has ever labeled the S76 as being particularly user friendly.... but "unflyable? Hardly.

[griffothefog]

HC was that GV ex crop duster?

[HeliComparator]

HC was that GV ex crop duster?

Can't remember his name but even if I could I don't think it would be appropriate to mention it, even the initials.