Talk about a tight formation.

[con-pilot]

I would not like to park that close to another aircraft.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_OYPs29rtk

R_OYPs29rtk

[glad rag]

Yeah, outstanding, whatever...

Same old.

[Danny42C]

Bit of turbulence as well.

[27mm]

To use a much overused word - awesome.

[Terry Dactil]

Any idea what the wingmen are using as visual cues for station keeping?
Probably positioning the leader's wingtip missile rail in your earhole would do.

[Cows getting bigger]

Pointless. 3 inches or 3 feet looks exactly the same from the spectators' perspective.

[Above The Clouds]

Having to break from the formation with an emergency could be interesting, but as already said seems a pointless risk.

[clareprop]

That is impressive - whatever the reason for it. However, if they fly that close all the time, statistically, there must be a risk of a 'wing-tap' from time-to-time?

[Bob Viking]

In my experience closer is often easier. There is no manoeuvring so it's not as dangerous as you might imagine. Also since it is a small formation they are all formating directly off the lead which is far easier than being the outrigger in a much larger formation where wobbles are magnified the further out you are.

I'm not saying it's child's play but with practice it's not as crazy as you might think.

Before the critics open up I should also add that I'm not claiming to be as good as these guys and I agree that it is impressive.

BV:ok:

[Dominator2]

If you have got it, flaunt it!!

And yes, they do "touch" now and then but nothing that a paint job wont fix. The Aim9 rails are easily changed.

Bob, you hit the nail on the head, Practice makes Perfect. But you do have to be GOOD to start with.

[Fareastdriver]

There's a USAAC song about it. A line is;

'with the leaders wingtip on my lap'

[AtomKraft]

I think he did well to hold that formation at the same time as he was filming it with his other hand!

[Tourist]

Having to break from the formation with an emergency could be interesting, but as already said seems a pointless risk.

The mediocre always criticise excellence as pointless.

[Cows getting bigger]

But is it truly excellence? Surely the team exists exist to wow the public? The public don't see the excellence because they are probably the best part of a mile displaced. As someone else implied, in the pursuit and presentation of excellence this bit of the display involves relatively wide boring turns and flypasts. It reminds me of the Turkish All Star F5 display team who used to fly reasonably tight formations but ordinarily took up two or three English counties whilst doing so. :zzz:

There comes a point where pursuit of excellence translates into stroking of egos. :)

PS. The only bit of relevant excellence I see in that video is the rock steady profile flown by the lead.

[SASless]

Green is such a boring color.

[LlamaFarmer]

Impressive, but is it as impressive from the ground?


Red Arrows synchro pair looks a lot more impressive on the ground, but they're a lot further apart in the air.

[Wageslave]

The mediocre always criticise excellence as pointless.

Isn't it sad that some people just cannot read a post without imagining that the writer has adopted the persona of the post rather than merely expressing an opinion.

Tourist, does my criticism of your irrational statement make me mediocre?

It is utterly fatuous to assume that a simple criticism implies superiority in act, deed or thought by the writer rather than merely the ability to observe and report.

[Tourist]

There comes a point where pursuit of excellence translates into stroking of egos. :)



That is a criticism that can be levelled at all displays.

I would agree that some of the Blue Arrows moves cover large areas, but I think it is very easy to see how close they are from the ground.

[Tourist]

Tourist, does my criticism of your irrational statement make me mediocre?



No, because my "irrational statement" was not an exceptional bit of writing. Little effort was expended in writing it, and I have no great skill as a writer.




I find those that criticise excellence in anything to be pitiful, be it any one of the pointless things that people excel at. (except morris dancing)

Figure skating, sprinting, jumping, painting, singing, mountain climbing.

All these things are pointless, but life is improved by those that make the effort to be awesome at something, anything.

Those that snipe are a waste of space.

[Phil_R]

How close together do two wings have to be before they start to mutually disrupt each others' airflow and cause stability problems?

I ask because I would have assumed the situation shown in the video would cause all the aircraft to bounce around in each others' turbulence, but clearly not.

[Dusty_B]

And I bet this all looks boring as hell from the ground. The hoo-hah about The Thunderbirds displaying at Oshkosh in '14 was massive... and then during their first display, thousands and thousands of the spectators were walking out. It was the most boring display by a professional team that I have ever felt the need to stick-out and watch.

The tightness of the group was ...impressive... by as a result, the dynamics were lame. The result was a poorly choreographed routine, with long gaps crowd centre while the team repositioned - usually at warp-factor-snot, which means everything takes so much longer and over much greater distances.

Give me a safer, more dynamic display. Please.

[Wageslave]

Those that snipe are a waste of space.

Hoist on your own petard, mon brave.

:ugh:

[Wageslave]

Such astonishing accuracy is indeed a revelation, I for one had no idea such close work was possible and I am full - deeply full - of admiration but I wonder what, once it's been demonstrated, is the point in continuing to do it beyond ensuring this esoteric skill is not lost. After all it has no practical or tactical use and the public can neither see nor appreciate it during displays.

I am left with more than a whiff of phalanxes of N Korean troops skipping like a bunch of poofs in their ludicrous quick march or the hilarious Monty Python antics of Pakistani and Indian "soldiers" at their disputed border. No doubt circus tricks do defuse tension but I suspect this is a result quite unintended by the "Brass" in this particular situation.

Doubtless training your army to emulate Nadia Comonenç skipping, backfliping and doing the splits in perfect split-second symmetry across the paradeground is impressive, but it adds not one jot to your warfighting reputation and can quite easily damage it through it's pointless ridiculousness.

Sure, it demonstrates vast precision but so do the dancing Indo-Pak border-guards. Isn't there a risk this sort of thing just looks self-indulgent?

[BEagle]

Both the Blues and the T-Birds fly a very tight formation. Which takes a lot of skill, I would certainly agree.

But the dynamics of such a formation result in a display which lacks the immediacy of either the Reds or the Patrouille de Frances' displays.

The whole razamatazz of the 'drive in', choreographed hand shakes with 'plane captains' etc pads out the display hugely. OK for the genpub, perhaps, but aircrew cringe at the "Flying Blue 2 in this great Texas sky is Lootenant Hiram B Chickensexer the third, a college letterman for track and field who graduated University of Whatville before gaining his wings of gold.... :yuk:" stuff from the commentator. Whereas other displays speak for themselves...

Impressive flying? Indeed. Appropriate for a formation flying display? Perhaps not.

[Dougie M]

Having watched their work up in El Centro over several years I can say that their formation flying is unmatched. The downside is that there are only four aircraft in the formation. They fly along the crowd line till BVR before changing the formation and then return. It doesn't have the dynamic of the Red Arrows of change of formation in front of the crowd and, with nine aircraft.

[LlamaFarmer]

It doesn't have the dynamic of the Red Arrows of change of formation in front of the crowd and, with nine aircraft.

Exactly...

You can't do any manoeuvres when you're that close together.

The couple of feet apart that the Reds fly is still very impressive in itself, then they throw in moves like Whirlwind (formation 9-ship aileron roll and change of formation), Twister (single Red barrel rolling around the formation) and Rollbacks (5-ship formation with positions 2 & 4 barrel rolling from inside to outside, positions 1 & 5 moving outside to inside to fill the gap) all close-formation dynamic displaying in front of the crowd line

[Fishtailed]

Have you seen this though, you need to see it on a tablet or smart phone.
I can't get my head round how it's filmed, but it's fantastic.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6SsB3JYqQg

H6SsB3JYqQg

[Thelma Viaduct]

Best display team (by a mile) I've ever witnessed.

Go US&A!!!

[F-16GUY]

You have not seen a lot of displays have you Thelma?

[Heathrow Harry]

Snowbirds fly the closest formations I've ever seen.............

[Bull at a Gate]

I have a response to those who say such a tight formation is pointless as members of the public can't see how close they are to each other - I am a member of the public and I could see it in the video! Looked very impressive to me!

[Tourist]

Bull

I'm afraid nobody will listen.

This is Pprune, the RAF rumour service.

Only the Red Arrows are any good, all others are cr@p.

Anything that others do but the Reds don't must obviously be pointless and dangerous otherwise the Reds would do it. QED.


Personally I do think the Reds are probably the best, though I do enjoy the "are they going to die" antics of the other European teams.

The fact that the Reds also do things that require excellence for it's own sake but are essentially opaque to non aviators seems immaterial to the Red brigade.

Personally, I'm all for excellence for it's own sake.

[Nige321]

Should you wish to book the Blue Angels for your flying display, the list of requirements makes intesting reading... :p

You want how many ve-hicles...?! (https://www.blueangels.navy.mil/media/support/support_manual_2016.pdf)

[Genstabler]

Bull,
Their closeness does indeed look very impressive IN THE VIDEO, because your viewpoint is close enough to appreciate it. Not the same from the ground. If the object of the display is to entertain the crowd from the crowd line, then much more is required. Unless you are Tourist who appreciates excellence for its own sake, even if you can't see it.

[FLCH]

The Reds are the best the Royal Navy have, can't be beat ....ever !

[CONSO]

Landmarks appear to be filmed over Lake Washington ( Seattle- bellevue ) note floating bridges ( no traffic cuz they are closed for show and for practice )

Music sucks :uhoh:

Note pilot" grin" while under multi g's

HOLD ON TO YOUR HAT!
Footage courtesy of the U.S. Navy & the Blue Angels… Video runs 3 minutes 44 seconds. Go Full Screen….

This footage is of the "slot man" in the Diamond formation, the toughest flying due to wingtip vortices, etc. When he "smiles", he is pulling some serious positive/negative "g" forces.

WOW! What a ride! Notice the rest of the formation in the Pilot's reflective goggles!
]Sound on, open video link and click ‘Play’ arrow: [B][url]https://www.youtube.com/embed/u4D0yx4DvBk?rel=0 (https://www.youtube.com/embed/u4D0yx4DvBk?rel=0)
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/embed/u4D0yx4DvBk?rel=0"]
BLUE ANGELS - Insane Footage Takes You Inside the Cockpit ..

u4D0yx4DvBk?

[SpazSinbad]

Number Four F-18 Hornet Blue Angel 360 degree Camera View


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAskHF2LATU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAskHF2LATU

[air pig]

Lack of face protection in the event of ejection, no O2 supply from a mask if there is a fumes in the cockpit event and doing aerbatic maneouveres when chewing gum, imagine if he inhales the gum and has coughing fit in close formation. Not an awfully good example in my view of flight safety.

[Chesty Morgan]

Don't think he wants his helmet to stay on either. The strap is a bit loose!

[SpazSinbad]

I guess NOT wearing a G-suit cannot be seen in these videos however like the other deleterious aspects mentioned above the USN (apparently) have good reason. For example the inflating/deflating G-suit bladders would interfere with precise formation abilities of said pilots.

[Tashengurt]

My impression was that he was a backseater rather than the pilot?

[CAEBr]

Tash,
Yes, you're right. He is simply playing the role of animated ballast for the benefit of the film. His (loose) helmet is blue. The forward facing camera shows the front seater wearing a yellow helmet.
CAEBr

[SpazSinbad]

Passenger: LCDR Jim Hilitz, USCG. I guess he needed a loose helmet strap in order to chew gum at the same time? :}

[tartare]

I thort they gave the passengers gum (ginger or cinnamon flavoured if I remember correctly) to stop them puking their guts out.
Yep - he's a back seater - not a navy flyer by the looks of things.
Steely eyed killer and slot man Cpt Hiram B Chickensexer III would not be grunting that hard under g...

[snippy]

Lack of face protection in the event of ejection, no O2 supply from a mask if there is a fumes in the cockpit event and doing aerbatic maneouveres when chewing gum, imagine if he inhales the gum and has coughing fit in close formation. Not an awfully good example in my view of flight safety.

Ridiculous comment about throat problems...Name a time you have seen someone have a "coughing fit" whilst performing at a major event.....😂😂😂😂😂

[Tay Cough]

I think the person you're referring to was flying a P-45 at the time.

[BEagle]

tartare, as I once wrote:

http://www.pprune.org/9240977-post24.html

:hmm:

[West Coast]

What a bunch of curmudgeonly remarks. Just enjoy the video.

[SpazSinbad]

What a bunch of curmudgeonly remarks. Just enjoy the video.
:} Butt Butt But this is pPRUNE - crab heaven - doncha know. :}

[tartare]

tartare, as I once wrote:

http://www.pprune.org/9240977-post24.html

:hmm:

Yes I know - it was a deliberate reference Beags - altho I weren't aware Hiram was copyrighted. ;)
And apologies for getting the Lootenant's rank wrong.
So who would be the Reds equivalent?
Sq Ldr Wupert Chuntington-Farkley?
I think we should be told...

[West Coast]

But this is PPRuNe - crab heaven - doncha know.

Nailed it.

[BEagle]

So who would be the Reds equivalent?
Sq Ldr Wupert Chuntington-Farkley?
I think we should be told...

Not these days, mate. Probably Sqn Ldr 'yeah-but-no-but-yeah' Jake Pollard, brother of Vicky....

rxCPj40eFNc

(Apologies to IE11 users who probably cannot see the clip. Actually, you're rather lucky not to!)

Others in the team? Flt Lt 'Innit Bruv' for one...

[SpazSinbad]

WotsUPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No apolylogies needed for cretinous IE eleven USers - turn it UP to 11! :}

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMt5cFQbncQ

[BEagle]

Despite watching Crocodile Dundee on TV last night, I'm afraid my Ocker to English translation skills aren't up to deciphering the previous post...

[SpazSinbad]

OhSoSad - go here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMt5cFQbncQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U760rn1MTV8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U760rn1MTV8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh6pZQX22CQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh6pZQX22CQ

[tartare]

Beags - to add to Spaz's explanation - aviation content:


1YZq3jlGRHo

[SASless]

Envy is such a base emotion!

The Blues and T-Birds fly frontline combat aircraft and do so in an interesting manner.

For pizazz I liked the Italian Team when they were flying the F-86 looking Fiats!

[Rosevidney1]

Formation flying is so .....tedious! More than two aircraft in the same FIR used to get me twitchy!!

[PersonFromPorlock]

Not unlike driving on the Interstate (that's "Motorway" to you Brits) in Massachusetts. :p

[tartare]

Envy is such a base emotion!



Negative.
We're just havin' fun.


P4Xhx2q_PcM

[Danny42C]

clareprop (#8),

Bit far back, but have just had a look at this Thread. Your:
..."there must be a risk of a 'wing-tap' from time-to-time?"...
In 1942, in ole Alabam', our USAAAC instructors used to playfully tap our AT-6 wingtips together for fun, no harm resulted AFAIK.

We thought it was great, but "don't try this at home !

Danny42C.

[Tailspin Turtle]

In my opinion, the Red Arrows put on the best display relative to the Blues, the Thunderbirds, and Snowbirds, although the last was handicapped by having to take off well before their display and climb to altitude for the vertical part of their routine.

The first time I saw the Reds, the Rollbacks were done with all nine, not just five. Equally impressive, more than I suppose 95% of those present could appreciate, was a rejoin of the nine, begun with a run-in (over the crowd) with the airplanes abreast and spaced though a 145-degree arc and then pulling up into a loop. At the top of the loop, they had gathered into the nine-plane diamond.

Eclat! indeed.

[dead_pan]

The video clearly demonstrates the Blues aren't that good - don't they know that you've got to point the undercarriage towards the ground?? Bunch of amateurs....

[Pontius Navigator]

Tourist, having been involved in a few displays there a definite buzz getting there in time, performing at minimum height and as perfect as possible. Having also watched the average Joe Public air show goer much of the excellence is missed.

You can very rarely get anywhere close to displaying the aircraft in its operational role. Better just fly at a safe height where everyone can see you.

[Madbob]

What also impresses me is that the F/A-18 is such a good aircraft aircraft with the precicise control systems and feedback via its flying controls for such close formation aerobatics. It must weigh in at c. 60,000 lbs at display take off weights and the throttle / engines response too is very impressive I can't imagine a similar standard of close formation being possible in a Tornao F 3 or with a GR Tonkw,,of whatever mark ,no matter how good the crews were
MB

[The B Word]

These two look quite close together in 67wg?

http://airheadsfly.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/RAF_Tornadopair-e1437554506174.jpg

Plus here is a nine ship

https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/3b/52/19/tornado-f-3-nine-ship.jpg

[Rhino power]

It must weigh in at c. 60,000 lbs at display take off weights...

The Blue's C model Hornets won't weigh anywhere near that much for displays, empty weight is c.24,000lbs, max take-off weight is 'only' c.52,000lbs...

-RP