Shorts Belfast

[DC10RealMan]

I was told that the Shorts Belfast when in RAF service was CAT 3 autoland equipped, is that true and if so why?

Where there any other RAF aircraft Cat 3 equipped such as the VC10?

[Al Richey]

Yes, all 10 aircraft were fitted with the equipment as it was used as a test bed for the Trident. Unfortunately it was decided that it was too expensive to maintain currency so it was not approved for use. However, I remember a couple of occasions...

[Double Hydco]

Yes, the Belfast was equipped with the Smiths System Autopilot (as was the Trident I think?) and was autoland capable. Was it called Cat3 back in the 1960's?

I was told that it was so good, that the touchdown zone on the runway used for trials (perhaps Fairford?) developed a dent from the aircraft touching down consistently in the same spot.

It couldn't be used in civilian service as one of the pitch channels was used for the stick-push system that the CAA insisted upon for civil certification.

DH

[Tankertrashnav]

The Tristars had it - I think it was already installed when they were purchased. There was a well documented incident at Brize when one sustained serious damage (Cat 4?) when landing using the system. No doubt much better informed members will give the details

[Fareastdriver]

touchdown zone on the runway used for trials (perhaps Fairford?)

The initial trials were done with a modified Varsity at RAE Bedford. One could lie in the bomb aimer's pod and watch the nosewheel hit the same skid mark every time.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, Lyneham I believe. I was sitting behind the same pilot when he made an autoland at Mount Pleasant, the first fixed wing aircraft to land there. I don't think the auto land was cleared for use at either case.

[Pontius Navigator]

FED, BLEU, see wiki

[1.3VStall]

TTN,

I could give all the details of the Tristar accident. However, suffiice to say that, after a flight deck pigs, on the second bounce during the "landing" the aircraft smegged the runway hard enough to fracture the rear spar. During the subsequent go around and visual circuit 4.5 tonnes of Avtur vented into the Oxfordshire skies through the damaged spar - you could smell it for weeks.

Lockheed brought a retired stress engineer out of retirement to devise the repair scheme and manage the repair. IIRC it cost about £4.5m.

[Lancman]

One of the problems with the Belfast's auto-land system was that it used a leader cable laid out across country for azimuth guidance during the last 300 feet on the glide path and that it used radar altimeter readings for a lot of it's internal switching commands, this required flat ground for the last mile or so before touch down, perhaps beyond the airfield fence.

[Tinribs]

During my Midland autoland training we were told the reason for the Tristar impact was that the operating pilot had checked forward on the cc after touch causing all lift dump/spoilers deploying at about fifty feet with the obvious outcome The ground school manager, Peter Hill, was an ex Belslow captain so there was probably some truth in it.

[LowObservable]

There used to be a tale that the reason for the Trident's offset nose gear was to avoid it hitting the centerline lights on every landing.

That said, I recall a cartoon in BA's house mag when Category IIIA certification (zero-visibility) was finally achieved. It was a solid grey panel captioned: "So we landed in zero visibility. What now?"

Apart from anything else, when the clag got that bad nobody could drive to the airport anyway.

[DC10RealMan]

Gents

Thanks for the comprehensive reply.

I presume that the RAF VC10 fleet were not CAT 3 equipped?

[Onceapilot]

TTN,
I am sure someone can put up a link to the report on the TriStar accident? Suffice to say, it ranks as a totally unprofessional co$kup. Fortunately, the tremendous capabilities of the aircraft saved the day. However, this incident soured the whole future of the aircraft with elements of the RAF, and gave ammunition to those, particularly at Brize Norton, who would seek to harm its interests. Sadly.:ooh:

OAP

[Double Hydco]

That said, I recall a cartoon in BA's house mag when Category IIIA certification (zero-visibility) was finally achieved. It was a solid grey panel captioned: "So we landed in zero visibility. What now?"

Apart from anything else, when the clag got that bad nobody could drive to the airport anyway.

I'm told that the RAF experimented (on the Belfast) with a cable leading device to aid finding the apron after a zero viz landing? A cable in the taxiway was energised and an instrument in the flight deck gave steer left/right instructions.

DH

[Trim Stab]

Reading this thread I am reminded of that engineer's maintenance log urban legend:

Pilot: "Cat 3 auto-land needs adjustment"

Engineer: "This aircraft not equipped with auto-land"

[Herod]

I may be totally wrong, and am waiting to be shot down, but I believe the Autoland accident stemmed from the fact that the autoland was not actually engaged. The aircraft was descending on the ILS, but of course with no flare.

[salad-dodger]

Herod. Similar to my understanding. I seem to recall there were issues with how the aircraft intercepted the glide slope with the the result that the autopilot was not properly primed. As you say this led the aircraft not flaring.

I am sure that some on here has the full story.

S-D

[Onceapilot]

Herod,
Yes, you have the gist of it,...Align, Flare, Rollout....blah. What really pees me off is, the RAF had an asset 30+YEARS AGO, that was better in many ways than the £30 Billion contract it has now!:yuk:

OAP

[t7a]

I can't remember much about it because of dead grey cells but, before CAT 3 was invented, the Vulcan was equipped with autoland although it's fair to say that it never came into service (I don't think) and it could only have been used where a lead-in cable was installed.

[Fareastdriver]

All three V bombers were fitted with the ILS approach on the autopilot. Some of them landed; the Victor was the best in this regard.

"a bit late on the roundout!"

"I thought You were flying it."

[RetiredBA/BY]

In reply to low observable: What's the big deal about taxy-ing after a cat 111, done it many times in a B 75 and B 76, just asked and got a "Follow Me" car.

Been a while but surely cat 111a required a RVR of 150 m or so, never zero, wasn't that 111c with 0/0?

Auto land on a VC 10, never saw that on a BA 10, which for most of the time wasn't even cat 1
ILS having a DH of 300 feet. Was the military 10 better ?

[Onceapilot]

Good job you're retired!

OAP

[Herod]

IIIa, 150m RVR/15'DH, required reference; one runway light. IIIb 75m/no DH, required reference; none. The Fokker100 was IIIb. Both pilots could die once it was locked on (and one engine could fail IIRC), and it would come to a halt on the centreline. Magic piece of kit.

[Arty Fufkin]

Cat 3a = 50ft DH, req RVRs 200/125/75, vis reference is 3 runway lights.

Just sayin' ;)

[Tinribs]

The F100 was clever in many ways, once established many failures would not be annunciated until after landing. If you were sharp you might notice a generator failure as the APU came on line but it was the merest flicker.

[6f1]

I have some great memories of Peter Hill a great Instructor he kept you awake!

[RetiredBA/BY]

OAP,

Nor sure why you made your comment, I wasn't far out!
That said, I too, am glad to be retired !! :)