Why should you stay?

[QCM]

https://image-store.slidesharecdn.com/d062b323-2650-4e11-80dc-b722d0bd3a4a-medium.jpeg

[BigGeordie]

Well I certainly feel challenged.

[fliion]

'Monitored' spelled wrong : /

[sluggums]

So was 'demoted' and 'vilified' :(

[CanadaKid]

A.phlegm.med

Rather than extol what you see as the benefits of the job ....

Listen & change the conditions that will keep the key personnel, ex. pilots. Those are the people that actually complete the task of getting people from A to B after all the hard work of planning, marketing, sales, etc.

A carefully crafted brand can be tarnished by the loss of key personnel.

As you say "Take a step back, look at the big picture and choose wisely"

CK

[120feet]

Sounds horrific! I would leave! Big picture says you would be crazy to stay. A lot of those things on your list you are just trading for other problems if you came to EK though. It would all depend on what problems bother you more. Six legs a day. Or six night turns. Same same but different. Almost everything on your list has a doppleganger at EK.

[Sallytraffic]

"Six legs a day. Or six night turns. Same same but different."

With respect I think 5 days of 4/6 sectors around the various dumps of Italy and Greece, not serviced by ILS' and certainly not serviced by good ATC is going to be much more taxing than 6 night turns with ample free coffee and opportunities for a bit of controlled rest.

[harry the cod]

.......of which 120 feet can't quite think of any right now or just can't be bothered.

APM

Unfortunately, whilst there is no doubt serious issues here relating to hours/rosters and leave, compared to a lot of other outfits, our moans and gripes probably seem pitiful. Thankfully for us however is the need to double the number of pilots and cabin crew within the next 10 years and not only attract newbies, but retain current staff. If that wasn't the case, we'd be sliding further down the scale each year to join you. It's from Companies like yours that we're getting many applications and guys join here feeling they've won the lottery.

But, I will agree with 120 feet in that over time and if certain conditions play out, the new shiny toy syndrome quickly wears thin. Wrong school, wrong villa, wrong fleet, wrong investments and wrong wife. It's a reality for some and it's not pretty!

Harry

[Commuter0815]

Wow!

Now and then I have a read on pprune, just to see how things are going in Europe and the ME, my old "love" :p.

Sad if that what is written here is really true. I considered EK for a long time the only "good" place in the ME(my opinion).

Have been a lot of years ago with QR as a captain on a widebody, then decided that I had enough of their BS and went back to Europe, flying big biz jets(yep, QR made me do that).

After a lot of years on GA side of flying I seriously considered moving back to airlines, considered EK. Even got an interview date already, but what I read here does not really make me confident to move my family back to the ME.
Apart from starting again on the "wrong" seat(isn't right always wrong :) ) what would have been ok for me(have been captain now for a long, loong time) considering the long term advantages of EK(sorry, I thought at least so) over a more or less uneventful biz jet career.

But reading some threads and what I heard as well from some very nice people via PM doesn't fill me with confidency that I would stand EK(if passing even the interview) in the long run.

I had all what was mentioned here already in QR - bad rosters, always some "mafia" running fleet upgrades or for the SO and FO - upgrades, always nightflying, always having leave cancelled or not given at the last moment, never getting your famous 4 days off in a row, lousy housing, spying and reported by FA's(for asking for O-Juice, dates,or shortbread) and always being monitored for every Sh*t that may happen, even the most minor one.
It seems EK took somewhere the wrong turn and applies QR(ish) procedures to their employees.

I am more and more considering to even not waste good 6-7 days of my life(instead of being with my family) to attend that interview because most likely, even if I would pass, I would decide against EK(all the other ME carriers are anyway a "no-go" for me).

In my present company we do operate quiet a lot of aircraft, doing worldwide flights. Huge pilot force(small if compared to EK), muliple fleets, airline SOP's and Standards(I should know that having seen both worlds over a long period). Still they surprise me by being - human. Had a fight about my roster for next month with Planning, 2 days later one of the bosses rings me and asks if everything is ok and what went on with planning(i did not tell him, they did).
Still he ensured me he will help and look into it. Never would have happen in QR(you couldn't even reach planning, not lifting phone or answering emails, door always locked, if you knock, they would not open) and it seems as well not in EK.

Another thing that makes me think and reconsider. Even that you guys laught at us(now) flying our tiny (compared to a 330/777) jet and being lousy paid in comparison to an EK Capt.

BUT - as many said already, here and in other threads, the aircraft and pay is not the ultimate goal(or should be, we know all this guys which would just kill to get a rating on a shiny, heavy jet - I do know a few) in a pilots life.
It is family, time with them at a place that everybody can enjoy, working for someone that might be not the biggest and nicest company, but they have a heart and a soul and sometimes try to understand what their employee wants(of course it always depends which kind of employee you have been over the last couple of years :)). But most of us need a good amount of years to realize what is really important in life. At least I did, took me lots of thousand of flying hours, a lot of companies, 2 kids to realize that.

So, thanks for this thread, and some of the others here in the ME forum. I was wondering already about the significantly lower entry requirements when I submitted my application 2 months ago. I think I know now why they went down on that. Sadly not a good sign.

[Emma Royds]

A.phlegm.med

Many of us in EK including myself have had to 'rough' it along the way to where we are now. Many of us have worked for some unscrupulous operators in some dubious places around the world, doing stuff in aeroplanes that would scare us fartless nowadays.

We can only compare EK to other large full service wide body operators, as that is where the bench mark gets set for what the terms and conditions should be.

[Commuter0815]

@Emma Royds

Don't get me wrong, I understand that fully, have been there and had many collegues in QR in the same position.

I don't think we get scared but if pax sometimes would have known what is going on with "their" aircraft they probably would never enter an A/C again for the rest of their life.

However, I resigned from jobs already if I got the impression that they do not play nicely in terms of mx or duty restrictions. Got fired once because I reported myself to authorities for multiple duty times violations by the company. And that in (Western)Europe. So far about that...Well, it was no big loss company and collegue wise...

I have met a lot of desperate guys who consider the ME or Turkey(!) a nice and save environment(no offence), so I know that perspectives are often quiet different.

I am sure that as well the majority of EK pilots are still quiet happy with their job, but that's probably a majority that is not counting for me any my background and for my homecountry(again, please, no offence).

I met a lot of very(very, very, very) happy people back in my QR days, but again, some of them came from a very different background and QR was like a lottery win for them(as is EK for many, I am sure).

With my current employer I am relatively often in Dubai, that's where I got the idea it might be a clever idea to try EK. I like Dubai, but after talking a bit with my wife(yeah, she is the clever one ;-) ) about it and doing some self reflecting it is one thing to VISIT a place or being stuck there for a decade(and career wise that is a timeframe that you must consider to stick with one employer). Not to forget my Doha experience which was, let's call it nicely, interesting.

[cerbus]

And there is the point...when you compare us to other wide body operators Emirates simply does not add up.

[Commuter0815]

Well - if it needs to be a widebody(I seriously don't care, my airplane ends behind the cockpit, :E) operator then again EK is maybe not the worst choice. Consider a tax free salary plus all the other deductions that you may have to pay of your salary when back in Europe.

Or, of course, there is China. Brr. Have been flying there, always glad to be out again. Don't know what is worse, ME or China. Most likely based on personal preference, but I hate flying in China. But there is the even bigger money then the ME at the moment, depending which aircraft you are flying. Other advantage, most China Operators offer commuting contracts and I guess that is the place to be at the moment for a lot of guys(and girls) leaving the ME.
I see the plus in livestyle - huge paycheck and still a decent time at a place you want to be.

Widebody Operators in Europe - well. If you join most carriers of decent size you start as a FO (don't know about the present BA deal). And then normally it is not 5-7 years to command, it is minimum 10 years +++. Plus never forget high tax in most of the western european countries.

If it has to be Widebody it may not a wise idea to leave, except China(or FO). If it could be as well a Narrow Body, then Europe is absolutely the place to be(and pay ;)).

Life is full of choices. And at the very end you will know if you did the right ones for yourself.

[Emma Royds]

The vast majority of us don't care what we fly but to compare EK to a short haul only or regional operator is not a just comparison for many reasons.

EK has not hit the gutter yet but it is the continuous decline that is the bugbear of many.

[CamelRustler]

Terrible ATC. No ILS?!?! Performance limited runways. How do you guys do it. You may be thinking of only EK 380 fleet when you look at where we fly. ANY Europe flight would be the top bid destination on our fleet. ANY. Free coffee or not. BTW if it's free coffee you want. This is indeed the place for you. (There's free crisps and nuts too.) But don't tell anyone.

[Trader]

Sally--sorry, but not even close! Did the 4-6 turns a 'day'. After a year of night flights, 90 plus (last while 100+ months) of night turns along with ULR's and day out/night back flights you won't feel human. Ask any of the pilots who have left how good they now feel.

You won't get much controlled rest on a night turn in any case!

Many of the Ryan Air guys are unhappy here as well and I know several who are looking to leave. A handful have gone back to Ryan Air but most are looking at other alternatives.

Terrible ATS---well that is a large part of the network - especially if you are small bus.

[Sallytraffic]

Fair point trader.
Having previously worked nights I know how rubbish it makes you feel.
6 in a row would probably not be too bad as a relatively consistent sleep pattern could be established for the week, but if its a night turn followed by a day and a night, a ULR then more night turns then that sounds horrendous.
Funny... The roster pattern they showed at the roadshow didn't seem too bad!! (yes, I know, they're not going to show potential joiners a shower of 5hiht)

[Aluminium shuffler]

Some people are unhappy whatever they're doing. To compare EK conditions to RYR conditions is ludicrous. There are many parallels, but anyone going back to RYR for reasons other than family necessity is a fool.

[altocu]

I received this email today from one of the recruiting agencies. It's certainly a novel pitch!

http://s8.postimg.org/l2iqi6mw1/Screen_Shot_2016_01_12_at_19_55_58.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/l2iqi6mw1/)

[bittersweetheart]

Aluminium. Bit of a strong statement there. Some people might prefer a stable roster and sleeping home every night, as opposed to the current state of affairs here.. Yes the salary is considerably lower, but should you happen to be based where you want to, and focus on living your life rather than work. Who's the fool?

End of the day there is no perfect job, and everyone value different aspects of life.

[CAT3A]

Aluminium,

Am considering and is not for family reasons!

Over 10 years in the ME and I have done the low cost in a previous life

For me is roster issues
......sleep and health go together so I guess is a matter of choices

[eduelp]

Am considering and is not for family reasons!

Oh please don't make that mistake. If you go back to a LCC, choose another one.

[fatbus]

Ryan Air TRE to FO 777 ,
upgrade delayed due to shortage of new FO ,
DECs from Ryan Air that the TRE trained at Ryan Air
back to Ryan Air TRE

[Craggenmore]

Some people might prefer a stable roster and sleeping home every night
Trouble is, by the time you've landed on day 1 of lates, have waited for the steps or wheelchair, then taken the bus across the airfield to the crew room, faxed off the paperwork, bus again to the car park and then driven home, up to an hour or more away and then wound down to sleep, you only have about 10 hours until you have to be back in the crew room doing another 11.45 duty.

So you never really 'see' home whilst at work. Just about 7-8 hours of a bed. LCC's own you during the 5 day pattern.

And 5 days of 03.30-04.45 alarm calls on the 5 earlies shift is a total horror show. No daylight seen off duty for the entire winter season unless on days off.

I'll take my monthly 380 roster, with 8-10 sectors, 15 days off and unlimited golf in the sun every single time. It's no contest.

[dubaigong]

We are all different and one can see one term of a contract as positive while sombody else will see it as negative.
For example: At EK a car comes to pick you up to drive you to work and at the end of your duty drives you back home.
Some pilot will see that as a plus ( no need for a second car , no stress in the Dubaï's traffic... )
Others will see it as negative ( they prefer to get a transport allowance , free to leave home when they feel it is time to , want to drive themselves...)

So this discussion will never end and there is no right or wrong choice , there is just one choice that suits YOU and who cares if somebody else think that you are wrong...

All I know is that I have been in Ryanair , then in the Middle East for 6 years and NOW I am back to Ryanair and I don't regret my choice.

Only the people who have experienced BOTH for long enough can really make a wise decision but only for THEMSELVES.

[CAT3A]

Well said Dubaigong

[bittersweetheart]

Dubaigong. My point exactly. You were able to phrase it better than me though :)

I have seen both places too. And decided EK isn't for me.

[bigdaviet]

Very true. Dubaigong and craggen you are both right. All depends on what you want from work and life.

[Desert Camel]

I hear that going back to Ryanair won't get you the base of your choice anymore, above all if you want to go back to Ireland or the UK. Seems to be a new policy.
What is the point in going back if you have to commute for an unknown period of time and play the base transfer lottery again? Being on a 7/2 roster, above all in the winter when there are less flights and less frequencies on the network, is a crazy prospect and as tiring, if not more, than EK.
Some would say you can settle down where you are based abroad.... well..I will let you work out if it is economically working out with family, kids, etc......Once again, no option!

So overall, lesss money, still 850-900 hours a year and be away from home and family even more (amongst other things).....If you are single and free, then fair enough, otherwise, it is not a viable option unfortunately.

[dubaigong]

It doesn't work for a Desert Camel BUT as said above it suits me and many others that are in Ryanair for more than 10 years.
I have done Ryanair and the Middle East for 6 years and between the two , I have made MY choice.
There are many other things that I can't cope with in the Middle East that I don't experience in here...
So Desert Camel , stay where you are but don't try to convince me that your choice is better than mine.
It is YOUR choice that only suits YOU and this is MY choice that only suits ME.

[Desert Camel]

Dubaigong, I am not trying to convince you or anybody else for that matter. I can understand your point of view. I am not sure why you feel targeted though, and feel the need to go on the offensive....

Anyway, all I'm saying is that going back to Ryanair to commute and basically be on a 7/2 roster with all the inconvenients it brings is not an option, for me at least. If, like the rumour mill suggested, they offered you the base of your choice, then it would not be a problem. I would be back already. However, as I said, the rumour mill is wrong and there are no more bases available in Ireland or the UK (possibly other places). This is NOT a rumour, it is a fact. New policy and no flexibility on it.

[dubaigong]

Desert Camel , it just means that you have waited too long to apply or are looking for bases where the demand is so high that there is no more position available...
I got the base of my choice and there are at least 8 other pilots from FZ on their notice period or already gone who also got what they wanted.
It is obvious though that it can not last forever as it depends on the number of aircraft per base versus the number of pilots requesting it.

[Aluminium shuffler]

I wish anyone going back to EU locos the best, and I really hope it works for you, but I honestly think you are remembering RYR with rose tinted specs and without the full knowledge of how it has changed in the last five years. It didn't get any better, that's for certain. A lot of recruits will be based on the wrong side of the continent, on 5/3 rosters rather than the advertised 5/4, because their base is being punished for trying to negotiate during the last T&C bout. If you think things moved fast at EK, then you're in for a shock.

[dubaigong]

Eduelp ,

I am fully aware of where I am coming back.
Ryanair is and always will be what you want it to be , it is up to the pilots to change it if they really want to by getting united.
When I was there I was an active member of REPA and was well informed by the people doing the hard work to help us during the base visit etc...
I have been following their advices by keeping as much as possible all the communications done with Ryanair in written. ( even after a phone call sending them a summary of the conversation to have a written report )
Each time I have been in " trouble " I managed to get away from it by getting in touch with Martin ( for example ) , following his instruction and it has always worked in my favour...
A few guys even went to court with some support and won against Ryanair BUT of course you will not find any publicity of it on crewdock...
So don't worry for me ...

[Desert Camel]

Dubaigong, FYI, I would already be back.... timing is no issue. Ireland/UK=at least 10 bases... I am sure there would a spot in one of them. Anyway, this is all nitty gritty stuff and the fact of the matter is, there are no Ireland/UK bases available. Full stop.

Eduelp, I would not mind being based somewhere in Europe and wait for my turn... as long as RYR pay for schooling so that i am not left with only half of my salary at the end of the month. This will never happen, I am not dreaming! For that very reason, I need to be based where I want to be. At the end of the day, if they are short of people and want to recruit experienced pilots (by nature, older guys with families, ties, etc....), then they have to factor this in, and guys who are already in the company need to understand this as well.