Gary Powers U2 mission 1960

[Geriaviator]

Interesting take on the 1960 sensation at Gary Powers: The U2 spy pilot the US did not love - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35064221)

[Treble one]

Gary Powers' shooting down was featured in the new Speilberg/Hanks movie 'Bridge of Spies'.


The actual ejection/abandonment sequence was somewhat surprising to these untrained eyes....not sure if the portrayal was accurate or a little bit of Hollywood 'Artistic Licence'.

[Wageslave]

Interesting take on the 1960 sensation at Gary Powers: The U2 spy pilot the US did not love - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35064221)

Interesting in what way I wondered? Isn't this just the straightforward tale of FGP that is well known?
He didn't activate the self destruct and allegedly talked far too much and far too freely once safe. He handed the Sovs the entire package. He screwed the pooch. How could he expect to be "popular" on his return? I remember at the time my Dad saying that as the U2 was considered untouchable pilots were not given counter-interrogation training which was the only reason he was not courtmartialed and banged up for life tho I was too young to understand.

[SASless]

Would you have had the RAF U2 Pilots commit Suicide had they been shot down?

The RAF's secret spies: Declassified CIA documents reveal British pilots flew U2 missions over Soviet Union during the Cold War | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2396001/The-RAFs-secret-spies-Declassified-CIA-documents-reveal-British-pilots-flew-U2-missions-Soviet-Union-Cold-War.html)

After four and half hours of flight time, an SA-2 surface-to-air missile exploded behind Powers’ U2 at roughly 70,500 feet. Though U2 reconnaissance flights were usually charted to avoid SAM sites, mission planners had not known about the one that fired the three-missile burst that shot down Powers as well as a Soviet aircraft sent up to intercept him.

According to the CIA documents, the centrifugal force of the now-spiraling aircraft threw Powers against his canopy, ruling out the use of the ejection seat. Instead, Powers released the canopy and prepared to jump out of the aircraft manually. Powers was also prepared to activate a destruction switch for the aircraft’s camera but was unable to because after he released his seatbelt, he was immediately thrown out of the aircraft, where he proceeded to dangle by his oxygen hose until it snapped. The aircraft crashed largely intact and Powers was recovered by Soviet forces in a field on the outskirts of Sverdlovsk shortly after.

[glad rag]

the now-spiraling aircraft threw Powers against his canopy, ruling out the use of the ejection seat.

So unstrapped for comfort then?

[The Old Fat One]

I remember at the time my Dad saying that as the U2 was considered untouchable pilots were not given counter-interrogation training which was the only reason he was not courtmartialed and banged up for life tho I was too young to understand.

It seems you still are. Your Dad was talking b****cks as well.

[Wageslave]

Would you have had the RAF U2 Pilots commit Suicide had they been shot down?

It isn't clear who this question is aimed at as no one has mentioned RAF pilots or suicide pills before SASless introduced them to the thread.
Doesn't the article made clear that USAF were given them but not "expected" to use them. One can only assume that someone thought they were a "good idea" in some circumstances or other.
So SASless, what makes you think that anyone would "have had the RAF...commit suicide" as though it might have been mandatory?
Seems an extraordinarily bizarre scenario to come up with!

edit...Oh, sorry OFO. Thanks for your helpful, informed and incisive input. You seem to be having comprehension problems as well as a particularly obnoxious manner. I can't help what I am told and merely related something that I recall was currently thought at the time as it could only have come from then current affairs or the press which makes it somewhat more objective, I submit, than any of your contribution. Try reading the post again. It makes sense.

[Treble one]

Reading SASless's transcript of the actual abandonment of the aircraft means that there was little artistic licence in the film.


One would assume it was a straight ejection given the circumstances, but clearly from the description it was not, and it was portrayed pretty accurately in the film it would seem.

[Jimlad1]

The article makes clear that Powers did not break any expectations placed on him, nor did he fail to follow orders by not taking the pill. The CIA report fully exonerated his actions.

Its remarkably easy 50 years later to decry the memory of a dead man when you have no idea of what actually happened. Sad but true.

[SASless]

He didn't activate the self destruct and allegedly talked far too much and far too freely once safe. He handed the Sovs the entire package. He screwed the pooch. How could he expect to be "popular" on his return?

Perhaps about 30 Seconds of Googling might have prevented you from Diddling the Dog yourself, eh?

Now let's move on with a discussion of Gary Powers, the U2 Program, the new Movie, and other issues relevant to that event in History.

Powers was tracked by Soviet Air Defense Radar from a point prior to his entering their Airspace and thus was at risk of being shot down as they had plenty of time to prepare for his track over their Homeland.

That the risk was known but found acceptable due to the value of the Intelligence being gained and the informed decision to continue with the Over Flights anyway.....how is that Powers' fault in any way?

That the aircraft was out of control and had put him into a situation where he could not eject but had to egress the old fashioned way....and could not activate the Camera Self Destruct system....that is just bad luck I would suggest.

[Archimedes]

It isn't clear who this question is aimed at as no one has mentioned RAF pilots or suicide pills before SASless introduced them to the thread.
Doesn't the article made clear that USAF were given them but not "expected" to use them. One can only assume that someone thought they were a "good idea" in some circumstances or other.
So SASless, what makes you think that anyone would "have had the RAF...commit suicide" as though it might have been mandatory?
Seems an extraordinarily bizarre scenario to come up with!

edit...Oh, sorry OFO. Thanks for your helpful, informed and incisive input. You seem to be having comprehension problems as well as a particularly obnoxious manner. I can't help what I am told and merely related something that I recall was currently thought at the time as it could only have come from then current affairs or the press which makes it somewhat more objective, I submit, than any of your contribution. Try reading the post again. It makes sense.

I suspect that SASless is referring to the RAF pilots who were operating the U-2 contemporaneously with Powers and his colleagues. See from p.153 (book pagination, it's p.61 of the pdf) of this:

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB434/docs/U2%20-%20Chapter%203.pdf

and parts of the following chapter

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB434/docs/U2%20-%20Chapter%204.pdf

(which contains an interesting map).

As the BBC piece makes clear, Powers was exonerated by both the Senate and the CIA. With the greatest respect to your father, he was undoubtedly reflecting the views which had formed before the Senate inquiry and the release of the CIA report. As a 'for instance' of where the official record contradicts perceptions of the time, Chapter 4 of the CIA official history, on page 177, makes clear why Powers did not operate the self-destruct - because he couldn't; pages 183-184 consider Powers' actions.

Were it possible to libel a dead man, I fear that your first post would've achieved that very nicely...

[AtomKraft]

Not seen the film yet, but always been interested in his flight.

Couple of points. His aircraft, article 360, had a dodgy autopilot, so FGP was hand flying it.

He took off from Peshawar, and planned to land at Bodo in Norway. Of course he never made it that far, but some of the mission planners reckoned that it was impossible to complete the flight as planned. Too far.

There is also speculation that the 'go' signal for his flight was sent insecurely- at least for part of its transmission, and that the Soviets knew he was coming- although he flew the first part of the flight at low (for a U-2) level to avoid attracting attention.

Also, it's never really been established whether he was shot down at the planned very high altitude, or if he'd been forced lower- perhaps after a flame out and then shot down. It seems most likely that he was at max alt, but some doubt remains.

[AtomKraft]

Of course, the really funny thing is how the oh-so-honest cousins, on hearing about the shoot down- and confident in Powers' death, went on to trot out their prearranged story about how the unfortunate pilot had been on a weather recce flight and had oxygen trouble....

This had caused the pilot to die in the aircraft, which then had continued on autopilot, and any inconvenience was regretted, but it was all completely innocent.

The wily Soviets waited until the false story was trotted out before revealing that:
They had the pilot! And he was alive.
They had the aircraft, and it was in big pieces and readily identifiable for what it was.
They had the cameras.
And they had the photos!

All a bit embarrassing.......

[Pontius Navigator]

I know that 3 aircraft crashed, Farmer or Fishpot. One, as recounted above was shot down. The other two span out of control trying to match U2 speed and height.

They fired many more than 3 SA2.

[Pontius Navigator]

Archimedes, your hot links didn't work.

Welcome back.

[Archimedes]

Thanks, PN. Modified now (they worked perfectly when I previewed them, so heavens knows what I did).

[Wageslave]

SAS, in your usual way you manage to be unnecessarily unpleasant with no good reason.

No one but you implied the risk was not considered acceptable. Sure, being unable to eject was likely bad luck, did anyone suggest otherwise?

The US government, as so gleefully put by atomkraft, followed a rather unimaginative line and acted as though the loss had gone "according to plan" before knowing the facts and walked right into the trap that Kruschev had carefully laid. The pilot had not conveniently died as expected, nor had he destroyed the plane as he was expected to and he then proceeded to act in a rather unedifying, unmilitary and, as would have been thought at the time, unpatriotic manner in the show trial. Having been so shown up on each count they were rather naturally not best pleased to be so embarrassed. That is why he was not exactly the Govt's Flavour of the Month on his return, and it must have pissed them off yet further to have had to exonerate him in the subsequent enquiries.

No, archimedes, what I said was merely what happened or was believed to have happened at the time. Does anyone really know the whole story? I doubt it vey much. Rather ridiculous, not to mention precious to call that libel.

[SASless]

Shoe pinch a bit when its on the other foot does it WS?

You say Powers "screwed the pooch" by making a very risky over flight of the Soviet Union in the heat of the Cold War, got shot down, barely escaped with his life, gets captured and thrown into the Soviet Prison System....with no hope of the US Government being able to help him.

He runs every risk of being shot out of hand by the Soviets....who do have a habit of that kind of thing if you know anything at about the KGB and their peculiar system of justice in those days.

You accuse him of talking too much while in prison with his knowledge and belief the USA was not knowing of his status.

Then he goes on Trial for his Life.

You base all your comments on something yer Dad heard down the Pub or something and you think I am being unnecessarily rude to you.

If you had taken just a scant minute or two and hit Google, Chrome, Firefox or some other search engine you might have had a more accurate basis upon which to comment.

Excuse me if I find your complaint to be somewhat less than justified.

[chopper2004]

According to a 1998 book on Dreamland, when talking about the U-2 program, and the shootdown; FGP was shown a map of Nevada by his interrogators. He was asked when the 'Ranch' /Groom Lake was and subsequently pointed it out.

The laughable thing was he was shown a map of Arizona or New Mexico so the Sovs had got it wrong apparently.

cheers

[Thelma Viaduct]

Don't see why he spams gave him a hard time on his return.

They gave him the mission & they gave him an aircraft that could be shot down. GFP should have been kicking off with them muppets, not the other way round ffs!!!

[Archimedes]

No, archimedes, what I said was merely what happened or was believed to have happened at the time. Does anyone really know the whole story? I doubt it vey much. Rather ridiculous, not to mention precious to call that libel.


So I rather wasted my time posting anything above the final sentence, which is the sole basis for your ad hominem disguised as a lofty rebuttal, then?

By the by, posting 'merely what happened or what was believed to have happened at the time' which could be seen to be deleterious to the reputation of someone who is still alive could land you (and the website you do it on) in a some bother (see, as but one instance, McAlpine vs Bercow where Mrs Bercow only alluded to libelous comment about Lord McAlpine, but was deemed to have repeated the libel).

I'd say that repeating suggestions that Powers was both inept and at best less-than-robust in the way he faced interrogation (he was later awarded a Silver Star for his resistance to that interrogation) might be seen as deleterious to his reputation, but as I suggested, since he's dead, the point is moot.

(I might be precious (although I'm guessing a couple of Ppruners who know me mightbe on the verge of death through excessive guffawing), but I do at least try to be polite....)

[JimNtexas]

If you can find a copy, FGP's autobiography is very interesting. One thing that got my attention was that when he left the USAF for the CIA his class was told that after a few years in CIA they would return to the USAF with no loss of time in service or rank.

Which of course didn't happen with Powers.

A few years ago some retired CIA pilots gave a presentation at Air Venture about Cold War reconnaissance. I asked about this, and was told that none of those early CIA U-2 pilots returned to the USAF. Most of them stayed with the CIA until retirement, many going on to fly the A-12 and WB-57.

As a former WSO/EWO I was happy to hear them complain that the many of the WB-57 backseaters were contractors who made much more money than the pilots.

[AtomKraft]

Suggestions the Frank Powers was a coward, or failed in some way are very crass.
He was just the first U-2 pilot of many, to be shot down by the SA-2.
He had pressed on, on a very tricky flight indeed, when lesser men would have aborted.
He seems eventually to have been treated well, but I think the US would have really ignored him, had he died- in fact the whole flight would have been denied.

A brave man.

[teeteringhead]

After all he went through, seems such a waste to have died after (probably) running out of fuel in a Jet Ranger.........:(

[sandiego89]

Wageslave....He didn't activate the self destruct and allegedly talked far too much and far too freely once safe. He handed the Sovs the entire package. He screwed the pooch.....

Glad that others have responded to this as well. I am sure Wageslave would have done everything properly, but since I have never been shot down and been spat out of spinning wreckage, or faced months of isolation and interogation I tend to give Mr. Powers the benefit of the doubt.

He was shot down, he was in a death spiral in the remains of the cockpit, had concerns about the ejection seat (wanting to keep his legs) so he commenced steps to use the alternate bale out method and was effectively spat out before he could flip the destruct switch....

For those so inclinded to review it, his debrief is interesting as it covers the pin issuance (offered, not ordered to use), seat straps (tight) and the alternate bale out method....

Debriefing of Francis Gary Powers, February 13, 1962 (http://www.allworldwars.com/Debriefing-of-Francis-Gary-Powers.html)

".....So, I stopped and thought that I could possibly climb out. I reached up and got both the emergency and normal canopy release handles, pulled them back, the normal side released first and it flew open and fell on off very nicely, and I immediately opened my seat belt, and the G-forces raised me up in a sort of a standing position. My oxygen hose was still hooked up - I had forgotten to disconnect that but I hadn't forgotten to pull my emergency oxygen supply.
That was already on - I did that one of the first things, but I was at least half way out of the airplane leaning leaning over the top of the canopy like this and I think that the only thing that was holding me in was my oxygen hose. I tried to get back in the airplane because I had to use that destructor switch. I couldn't get back in - I couldn't get out - just hanging there with my head out in the air, and some way I knocked this rear view mirror off - 1 remember seeing it float off forward relative to me. I tried to reach down in the airplane back here to get to the destructor switches - I couldn't get to them and I knew I was below 34, 000 feet - I didn't know how high I was - had no way of knowing when I first opened the canopy my face plate fogged up completely - couldn't see. I knew I was getting close to the ground - I had no idea how close, and I knew after trying to get back in there so I could get to the destruction switches that I couldn't do it - it was impossible, so I just gave a big kick - lunge - and something gave on that oxygen hose - I don't know what broke but something gave, maybe it just pulled out of the quick disconnect there even though I had it locked - somewhere along in there it gave and I went off into the air...."

[Kubarque]

QUOTE: A few years ago some retired CIA pilots gave a presentation at Air Venture about Cold War reconnaissance. I asked about this, and was told that none of those early CIA U-2 pilots returned to the USAF. Most of them stayed with the CIA until retirement, many going on to fly the A-12 and WB-57. UNQUOTE

Actually, many of the early CIA U-2 pilots did return to the USAF. I know of at least seven of those "sheep-dipped" into the CIA program who went back to Air Force flying. One, Hervey Stockman, spent 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton after being shot down in an RF-4C. Hervey flew the first U-2 mission over the USSR on 4 July 1956.

I am also pretty confident that none of the CIA U-2 drivers went on to fly the A-12.

[Pontius Navigator]

Archimedes, I have now recovered my composure.

[KenV]

Sandiego89 said:
Glad that others have responded to this as well. I am sure Wageslave would have done everything properly, but since I have never been shot down and been spat out of spinning wreckage, or faced months of isolation and interogation I tend to give Mr. Powers the benefit of the doubt.

I second SanDiego's reply. And FWIW, USAF did far more than give Powers the "benefit of the doubt", but (belatedly) awarded him the Silver Star for exhibiting “indomitable spirit, exceptional loyalty, and continuous heroic actions" while undergoing "unmentionable hardships on a continuous basis by numerous top Soviet Secret Police interrogating teams." It's heart breaking that Powers' reputation was smeared for decades after this incident. It's unconscionable that there are those who continue to smear him when the record has been set straight and that record is so easily and readily available.

[Brian W May]

Interesting in what way I wondered? Isn't this just the straightforward tale of FGP that is well known?
He didn't activate the self destruct and allegedly talked far too much and far too freely once safe. He handed the Sovs the entire package. He screwed the pooch. How could he expect to be "popular" on his return? I remember at the time my Dad saying that as the U2 was considered untouchable pilots were not given counter-interrogation training which was the only reason he was not courtmartialed and banged up for life tho I was too young to understand.

I suggest you read Gary Powers' book, might just enlighten you a little. You sound quite judgemental considering it wasn't your arse in a sling.

[GlobalNav]

I agree with many here who give Powers the benefit of the doubt - if there is any remaining doubt. I recall, however, that while in AFROTC back in the 60's, my field grade USAF pilot instructors who just returned from SEA combat flying, were very critical of him. Mostly saying he should have used the needle to prevent release of classified information. I suppose the context of their remarks was their own combat experience over the North and perhaps even the continued use of U2 and SR71 in SEA.

I personally make no judgment of what Powers did, his own account seems to be reasonable. But I also can understand the position of my pilot instructors and what they considered a security risk to those still flying over the North. Interesting that one of the CIA U2 pilots returned to the USAF and ended up as a POW too. I wonder what his opinion Powers' performance was. If he was critical he may not have expressed it.

[SASless]

GN,

During the days of the Vietnam War, many pilots captured by the North Vietnamese had knowledge of very classified Nuclear Information and other information that would have been of much value to the North Vietnam, China, and the Soviets.

It was always a risk they could be convinced to disclose what they knew.

I don't suppose those who were so critical of Powers would have considered using their own Service issued Revolver to shoot themselves in the Head to prevent their deciding to talk while being tortured would they.

[GlobalNav]

SL "I don't suppose those who were so critical of Powers would have considered using their own Service issued Revolver to shoot themselves in the Head to prevent their deciding to talk while being tortured would they."

Gladly I have had no such experience and certainly no criticism of those who lived through it. I appreciate what they suffered through and glad they survived, though many did not. The reality, as reported by many of them, is that indeed while most will reveal something, the trick is to reveal as little as possible, even to mislead where possible. So I judge not - the residents of the Hanoi Hilton, nor Francis Powers - I tip my hat to them.

The point of my first post here was to merely give some sense of what the thinking was at the time, by those who have more than a little interest and background.

[Kubarque]

In 1964, On my first evening with the U-2 program, I was introduced to Barry, "one of the drivers." Upon my questioning Barry regarding Powers, he stated that "Frank did as well as any of us would have under the circumstances." I found this to be the attitude of the other pilots and all personnel who had served with Powers held FGP in high regard.

The cover story fell apart when the route map was found. Even if he had managed to throw the destruct switches, there would have been enough pieces found of the very impressive "B" camera and the elint recorders to tell the tale. The AI jammer in the tail (separated in the initial airframe breakup) was not compatible with the NASA weather ship story. While not denying the undeniable, Powers was able to deflect many questions by pretending to be just a stick monkey who pressed certain switches at certain points on the chart but had not been allowed to know anything of his payload.

Among the secrets he kept to himself were the Brit participation in the U-2 program, the many U-2 middle eastern missions, the names of his fellow U-2 pilots. He let the Russians believe he had been a couple of thousand feet lower than actual when he had been shot down. As already mentioned, he was offered the needle as an option. He could have declined to take it with him and still would have been launched.


Kubarque

[Brian W May]

Kubarque

Having read FGP's book and being an aviator who is healthily cynical with regards to the 'Lords and Masters', I was left with the impression he did a good job considering he was in deep ****.

Well said.

[Brian W May]

Don't know if it's been said but this is worth a read:

CIA and Overhead Reconnaissance paper or OXCART

http://www.foia.cia.gov/sites/default/files/document_conversions/18/1992-04-01.pdf

Grab a cuppa before you start it.

[SASless]

GN,

I have visited the Hanoi Hilton and while inside some of the Cells....one can only begin to imagine what it must have been like to be at the complete mercy of some very un-nice individuals who sole mission was to extract "confessions" and information from you using whatever means they wished for as long as they wished and no real concern if you survived or not.

I am so glad I never had to confront such a situation.....and I can only stand in admiration to those that did...and who prevailed over Evil as they did.

Now that the true Story of the Clandestine Communication system that was in place is being told it really does add a dimension to the story that we all need to read and appreciate.

Stockdale won the Medal of Honor for his courageous actions and others were cited for theirs as well.

[GlobalNav]

SL - I am in complete agreement with you. Our country has been blessed to have such men (and women) in its service.

[Kubarque]

Brian

A more recent release of this history is here:

The Secret History of the U-2 - and Area 51 (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB434/)

A lot of the redactions have been filled-in including the previously deleted UK and Nationalist Chinese participation.

Links to individual chapters as well as a torrent of the whole document at bottom of page.

[sandiego89]

Great link Kubarque, thank you for posting.

[Brian W May]

Thanks Kubarque didn't realise it had been updated.

Have kebabed with U2 pilots and engineers in Akrotiri in 70s and met a mess of pilots et al from Alconbury at Wyton in the late 80s when their TR1s used to fly through the RAF Wyton circuit.

Guys came for a fly in a Canberra, but oddly enough, didn't reciprocate :p

[Wageslave]

Archimedes, yes, you waste your time in pompous and smug lecturing that seeks to demonstrate your apparently superior knowledge of unknowable things (or were you senior in the CIA too?) over we normal members of the race, we that do not seek to flaunt our politically correct 20-20 revisionist hindsight.
Clearly you never believe anything you are told or were given to believe in the past - it must be a real handicap believing that everyone you obtain information from is lying to you and that all your memories are falsehoods. To berate yourself so caustically for recalling past events as you so unreasonably berated me must be particularly distressing. I'm sorry for you.
The article that provokes this discussion suggested that the US Govt were disapproving of FGP at the time, as was commonly understood at the time. Sorry pal, it's there in the history (i.e.the real one you haven't re-written).

finis.

[GlobalNav]

"The article that provokes this discussion suggested that the US Govt were disapproving of FGP at the time, as was commonly understood at the time. Sorry pal, it's there in the history (i.e.the real one you haven't re-written).

finis."

The early USG response toward Powers rested primarily with the DCI and was not generally accepted among others in the USG. Sense eventually prevailed once Kennedy's first DCI left office. Powers was awarded the Star once the DDCI was free to do so. The appropriate, if delayed, conclusion. FINIS indeed.

[The Old Fat One]

Don't feed the troll guys.

[megan]

Interested to learn that Powers was not shot down in the conventional meaning of the word, the missile shockwave as it passed by caused the aircraft to breakup between the empennage and wing trailing edge (see 3:40), a good video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfuxCfJOZsk

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Every day's a school day - will sit down and watch the whole thing when the Easter p***y-little-jobs-list has shrunk to manageable proportions. Thanks for the post, megan :ok:

[Shaft109]

If you read Ben Rich's Skunk Works once he was returned he was debriefed personally by Kelly Johnson who verified that his story was accurate for the CIA.

[Cannylad]

One evening crossing the USA/Canadian border returning from IAH we had a visitor on the flight deck. He was an American in his 60s and after a general chat about airline flying and life style he commented on Gary Powers and the U2. He said that he had been on the same squadron as Powers and said Powers was considered to be slightly unpredictable and unconventional. He said that Powers had dosed off during the flight at a critical time when he needed to change fuel tanks and suffered a flame out. The only way to restart the engine was to descend into more dense air and was then within reach of SAM missiles. He might have been spinning a line but seemed knowledgeable. 🤪

[megan]

dosed off during the flight at a critical time when he needed to change fuel tanks and suffered a flame outThere is no change of tanks available on the aircraft, fuel is either on or its off, operated electrically by a switch..

[SASless]

Facts....mere facts!:=