Air Experience Flights; why two-seaters?

[ShotOne]

Even in the good old days, getting airborne as an Air Cadet was mostly an all too rare pleasure. Why have Air Experience Flights always used two-seat aircraft? If a four seat aircraft was used, three times the number of cadets get to fly, for substantially the same cost. This would permit, say, a navex, perhaps changing seats, rather than the usual brief local hop. OK, only one has a set of controls in front of him but does that really matter? There's a host of suitable types; a Robin DR 400, for instance

[Rhino power]

How many 4-seat trainers did the RAF operate when the AEF came into being, and for that matter, now? Chippies and Bulldogs were plentiful, now the Tutor fulfils the role, why pay for another type for what is ultimately a limited number of flights per year, when those flights can be easily accommodated with a perfectly adequate for the job, existing type?

-RP

[Cat Funt]

Ever tried teaching nav in the back while there is a lesson on primary effects of controls going on in the front?

[MAINJAFAD]

The AEF's had one, A Beagle Husky based at No 5 AEF at Cambridge in the 1970s and 80's. As a newly enrolled cadet, I expected to get my first powered flight in the thing as that was the aircraft that all the new cadets normally got their first trip in at Cambridge. However on my first trip up there, the thing was U/S, thus first flight in a Chippy with a lot of aeros and a bit of time of 'I have control'. Second Trip to 5 AEF, sees my CO look at my 3822 and noting that I didn't do the Husky as the first trip, I got stuck in the back of the thing for my second flight. It was the most boring flight I ever did in the cadets.

[oldpax]

I had mine as a boy entrant in 1959(St Athan) although we did jump in front of some ATC guys to get it!!There were three Avro Ansons doing the flights all with RAFVR pilots so there were four of us and pilot!Great fun as the pilots thought trying to be fighters was the way to go!Remember circling over the steel works at Port Talbot looking at the other two ansons going round in a circle!!Ah memories!!!!

[GipsyMagpie]

Sorry but pretty sure "changing seats" in a DR400 would be beyond the most gymnastic of cadets. And regardless, what a poor introduction to aviation the back of a light aircraft would be. Without access to the controls I would expect many more would be airsick, putting them off for life. These flights might be the trigger that inspires the next generation of pilots to put in the not insignificant amount of effort to be pilots. The AEF are great but the main focus should be on getting the cheaper gliding organisation back on its feet.

[chevvron]

Stick cadets in back seats for their first (ever) flights and you would guarantee multiple technicolour yawns. When you have a cadet on a first ever, it's essential to keep a 'patter' going continually in order to keep their minds occupied because if they have time to think about puking, they will puke. When doing AE in both gliders and microlights, I found this technique always worked; keep 'em busy, get them to handle the controls, point out things of interest on the ground. You can really only do this with one passenger at a time, so any others would be sidelined.
My first Air Experience flight was in a piston Provost from Rissy in '62. It spoilt me for later Chipmunk AEF as you could 'communicate' with your instructor much better plus you could watch how he handled the controls and try to copy him.

[PapaDolmio]

5AEF was my local AEF and ISTR 5 chippie flights from there during my 4 years in the ATC plus one Husky trip to make up the numbers on the last trip of the day after a chipmunk trip-bonus. Flt Lt Blackmore was the pilot (I believe he was the only one qualified to fly it?)

I don't think sitting in the back of a 4 seater bothered me much- just glad to get airborne in anything!

WRT airsickness, the only time I was ever airsick on an AEF was during a flight check at Valley in a 115 Sqn Andover whilst at camp at BZZ, I wasn't the only one. Many years later I did feel slightly uncomfortable programming cadets for a 2 hour MCT Herc trip at LYE, wonder if it put any of them off?

[BEagle]

As far as I'm aware, the only basic trainer used by the RAF which had more than 2 seats was the Percival Prentice, which had an additional seat in the back for another student to gain 'air experience'....

A thoroughly unsuccessful experiment and there must have been sighs of relief all round when the wretched things were replaced by the 'Piston' Provost.

[Fareastdriver]

replaced by the 'Piston' Provost.

Provost T1, please. The kiddycar with a vacuum cleaner in the back was a Jet Provost.

[Dan Gerous]

My first flight was in an Argosy on one of those test thingys 115 Sqn did. We were supposed to be doing a few airfields, but problems at Thorney got us off-loaded till they pounded the circuit, and we all got back on in the dark to head back to Cottesmore. Might sound boring, but I loved it, and now just like to be flying. Only thing about flying I don't like, is not having a window seat, or being able to see out.

[sharpend]

I own a Bulldog outright; I have use of a Cirrus; a 4-seater. I have 10,000 hours, I am an ex RAF QFI,I have flown cadets in the AEF. I offered to fly cadets in my Bulldog. I filled in all the forms. Did I get a reply from HQ Air Cadets?

Not a chance.

[Tankertrashnav]

We once took an ATC cadet in the 6th seat in a Victor K1. Must have involved a lot of pre-flight palaver, learning how to operate the oxygen, escape through the door on the case of an abandonment etc, but anyway he came along.

He was a total PITA, chipping in on the intercom all the time complaining he was too hot, too cold, etc, until for some inexplicable reason his intercom failed and he was silent for the remainder of the trip!

We once took a WRAF air trafficker at Akrotiri. I was undeservedly mocked by the rest of the crew for quite innocently asking her if she would like to come and have a go with my stick. I naturally meant the shift control on the H2S radar!

PS - Can I have a go please Sharpend?

[PapaDolmio]

I think for most cadets, the chance to get airborne in anything is welcome. Let's face it, most of them will subsequently only ever fly in an airliner in their adult lives.
In an ideal world, flying in something 'military' (Chippie, Bulldog, Grob) is always best, but if not then anything else will do if it fires the imagination and introduces new experiences (pleasant or not). It's all good character building stuff.
Personally I'd put my first Chipmunk flight down as one of the defining moments of my life and although I was never brave or bright enough to fly professionally I still enjoy the whole flying thing.
Throughout my 30 odd years of ground service I never turned down the offer of a trip (although sometimes wondered why during/afterwards). I'd like to think they made me a better operator.

[BEagle]

Our school didn't have an RAF section of the CCF; even after I'd won an RAF Scholarship, I wasn't allowed an air experience flight in an AEF Chipmunk.

However, the Royal Navy was rather more flexible, so I had an air experience flight with them instead...

...in the coal hole of a Sea Vixen for the Farnborough Air Show :ok:. Bouncing around in the low level turbulence whilst we formed up, I needed the honk bag, but the rest of the trip was brilliant!

And nowadays the RAF can't even unbugger its cadet gliding....:(

[Fareastdriver]

We once took a WRAF air trafficker at Akrotiri.

Did the same with a WRAF from El Adem when refuelling some Vulcan on some non-stop trip. The voice wasn't quite what he expected when she called. "Clear for contact."

[Prangster]

As a squadron officer for 15 odd years I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of my cadets who yawned on any flight let alone their first.


Answer to question why 2 seater is self evident. Tis the lure...catch em young.


Five of my lads went onto great aircrew careers.

[Shackman]

Aaah AEF.

As a CCF cadet it seemd the world (almost) was my oyster. I got to fly in so many ac types I find it hard to remember them all; from school in Brighton we got Hastings, Beverleys, Argosies and visiting ac such as Varsity, Valetta, Britannia etc as pax from Thorney Island, including getting flown to annual camps by one or t'other for two of them. That in turn led to flights in Shackletons, Javelin, Canberra (in the B/A position for take off and landing!!), Meteors, Hunter, and Ansons and other smallish ac . I even got to fly in a Mosquito. There was 'dedicated' hands on flying in Chipmunks and plenty of glider flying in T4s and Sedberghs. All this flying was organised through the CCF organisation and thanks to hard working staff members who knew where to go! Every flight was added incentive to work hard to join and earn my own wings.

I didn't forget the CCF/AEF flying once in either. OK - you couldn't give cadets much hands on in the Shack but I was always (mostly) happy to take cadets flying on even the longer sorties, and once in the rotary world school visits and cadet flying were plentiful and fairly easy to organise.

However the rules just seemed to tighten and tighten. Latterly at DHFS they reached the stage where they had to be authorised way up the ladder, paper work was equally horrendous, and the chance of a cadet flying reduced to almost zero. Now this might not be the case in Strike/JHC, but, just as the debacle with the VGS system it seems the will to educate and involve the youngsters of today in aviation (and tomorrow's recruits) has been subsumed by a lack of interest by 'the system'.

As a final note, I used to fly with a captain who's passion for flying started as an ATC cadet when he used to fly with the ATA on delivery flights (in Halifax's and Stirlings amongst others) as someone to operate switches. How things have changed.

[chevvron]

As a squadron officer for 15 odd years I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of my cadets who yawned on any flight let alone their first.



I was in the ATC for 36 years, 19 of those commissioned.
I puked on my first flight (Argosy, circuit bashing) and observed quite a few other cadets either on their first or subsequent flights, sometimes even well after we'd landed.
One day in the crewroom at Farnborough one of the pilots who had been a cadet himself walked in looking rather pale. I asked him what was wrong, he told me he'd been airsick for the first ever time in 5,000 odd hours. He'd just done a low level sortie through Wales in a Hunter but the other guy had been doing the flying. So it can happen to anyone anytime.

[Saintsman]

I used to take cadets flying on VC10 training flights - locals.

A bit like flying in an airliner but at least they could see the flight deck and what went on. They loved it.

Even if they didn't get the flight deck visits, they would have loved it because they were flying in an RAF aircraft. Same when they went on a Puma. Strapped in at the back with not a lot to see for most of them. Never a shortage of cadets wanting to go.

[ShotOne]

Good answers, thanks. Just a couple of points: "tis the lure, catch them young..." seems rather to assume that the alternative is a one-on one session at the controls which I agree would be ideal. In reality though, often the alternative is no flight at all.

"Flights in the back guarantee a technicolour yawn..." which would seem to have ruled out Chipmunk -and many of its predecessors

[WeeJeem]

a navex, perhaps changing seats, rather than the usual brief local hop. OK, only one has a set of controls in front of him but does that really matter? There's a host of suitable types; a Robin DR 400, for instance

As my grandmother used to say, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." :ok:


Dear Mister and Mrs Jones

We regret to inform you of the sad loss of your son during an air experience flight.

I would like to confirm to you that he was having a great time and was as happy as a lark right up to the point where he and Cadet Smith departed through the canopy - possibly due to a tad of unexpected turbulence, possibly due to an ill-advised accidental kick on the control column - whilst unstrapped and changing seats with each other.

Rest assured that that you will among the first to know once we have located them. I am sure you will also be glad to hear that the doctors think they will get (the somewhat ironically-named) Cadet Brown out of his locked foetal position over the next few months.

Yours SincerelyAir Commodore Peasemold Gruntsfuttock
RAF Whowouldhavethoughtiteh

[163627]

Do cadets still get the chance to fly at summer camps? During my time in the cadets (1960s) I had the good fortune to get trips in a Hercules, Hastings, Shackleton and Wessex during "camps" at various RAF stations. Much to my annoyance I missed out on a flight in a two seat Hunter when our family holiday in Cornwall prevented me going with my Squadron (94 Feltham Squadron ATC) for a weeks camp at RAF Chivenor. Back in those days we had things organised by the squadron most weekends such as full bore rife practice at RAF Uxbridge and gliding at RAF Halton and many other locations. Then the ATC was a real showcase for the RAF and many from my squadron went on to have long and fulfilling careers within its ranks. I'm sure as an organisation it still does it's best but regrettably probably nothing like as much I had the good fortune to enjoy.

[Rosevidney1]

During the 1950s we were spoilt for choice. 24F squadron ATC organised at least 2 weekend trips a month for those who cared to go aloft. My first trip was in a Lancaster, followed the same day by an Oxford. I couldn't go often enough and was staggered when other cadets declined trips by saying "Oh, not another bloody Shackleton, we flew in them last time"! They usually attended summer camp though as the aim was to get more types in the little book we were issued with. (Wish I had kept mine).

[brokenlink]

16327 in theory cadets should get flown at Annual Camps. Just depends on where the camps are. With fewer and fewer airfields/aircraft it is getting a challenge to get them airborne. Having just seen the SAR fleet consigned to the history books another chance has gone.

[ShotOne]

You're absolutely right, wee jem; elf n safety must always take precedence. How could anyone in their right mind consider allowing children to fly in single piston aircraft with however many seats?

[ChrisJ800]

I suppose you could call sitting in the back of an airliner an air experience flight but the air experience flight I did at Manston in a Chippy in the 70's was really a first flying Lesson. Taught to fly straight and level and coordinated turns hands on, then observed some aerobatics finishing with a practice forced landing from 2000 feet. Convinced me to pursue lots more flying!

[Hawk98]

Do cadets still get the chance to fly at summer camps? During my time in the cadets (1960s) I had the good fortune to get trips in a Hercules, Hastings, Shackleton and Wessex during "camps" at various RAF stations. Much to my annoyance I missed out on a flight in a two seat Hunter when our family holiday in Cornwall prevented me going with my Squadron (94 Feltham Squadron ATC) for a weeks camp at RAF Chivenor. Back in those days we had things organised by the squadron most weekends such as full bore rife practice at RAF Uxbridge and gliding at RAF Halton and many other locations. Then the ATC was a real showcase for the RAF and many from my squadron went on to have long and fulfilling careers within its ranks. I'm sure as an organisation it still does it's best but regrettably probably nothing like as much I had the good fortune to enjoy.

Yes we do, in the past five years as a cadet I've flown in a Sea King (2015) and Chinook (2014) (as well as the Tutor about 6 times in just over a year and gliding, well let's not go there...) Oh and at Valley in 2012 one lucky sod got a go in a Hawk

[JEM60]

Ah, the good old days. Started with 1365 Aylesbury Squadron. Second flight ever was in a Beverley. Subsequently many Ansons, Chipmunks at White Waltham. Notable summer camp at Kinloss. Didn't get a Shackleton, but our Anson was flying in formation with another. We were going to Wick to pick up an airman, and the pilot alongside decided it would be fun to have our wings overlapping !!!. I kid you not, this actually happened. Scared the s..t out of us!. Got a Vampire T.11 at Shawbury on summer camp, and was eventually Staff Cadet on 613GS at RAF Halton. Great days!!.

[Ken Scott]

I quite often flew ATC cadets on the C130, you could fit in quite a few & even though there weren't many windows they would rotate through the flight deck for a good look at the 'action' & you could open the ramp or para doors for an enhanced view although that could limit your activities somewhat. They had a tendency to throw up especially down the back on a warm summer's day but I always thought it was a formative experience whatever. I'd enjoyed similar trips in my youth (without the throwing up).

I did one memorable PD to St Mawgan with a bunch of cadets, after we'd completed the training we flew around the Cornish coast with the doors open & then closed up for the transit home. As we settled into the short cruise their officer said that one of his cadets was doing her PPL & could she have a go? The co obligingly gave up his seat & the young lady after a little instruction hand flew the ac all the way back even descending & joining the hold where the co got back in to land us. I like to think that given the chance she'd have done an equally fine job of landing it too.

She demonstrated real potential & I hope she was inspired to try for a career in aviation. Sadly the paper chase to fly anybody these days seems to be getting longer.

[rolling20]

IIRC the old Bulldog could be configured for a 3rd pax in RAF service? No that I ever saw one.

[BEagle]

No, the Bulldog could not be configured to carry anyone other than the 2 pilots.

[Danny42C]

I was never a Cadet or in a position to fly Cadets, but on a tour as the Adj of an Auxiliary Fighter Control Unit, I was often able to borrow the Squadron Harvard or the Station Tiger Moth at weekends. I was able to keep my hand in on the Squadron Vampires (indeed, you were obliged to do so [if there was opportunity] on your ground tours in the '50s), but they had only single-seat Mks. III and V.

An extract from a Post of mine (on another Thread 18 months ago):

...Your #5505 reminds me that I used to give "Air Experience" flights to our troops from time to time on Sundays at Thornaby (always picking a sunny afternoon for the Station TM !), and sometimes in the Harvard.

It was strange to find that, even as late as the early'50s, that apart from the tiny minority who had wartime aircrew experience, and some who'd a bit of glider or light airctaft time, no more was generally known about the art of piloting than fifty years before. Many thought of it as a sort of "high wire" balancing act, in which only the consummate skill of the operator stood between safety and and an uncontrollable plunge to earth.

So when I offered the back-seat passenger the chance to "have a go", the response was often naked terror. Not for all the tea in China would they touch the stick, and begged me not to let go. I'd lift my hands in the air to show that the aircraft could happily look after itself - they were horrified. "Take it", I'd say, "there's no trouble that you can get into that I can't get out of in ten seconds" (I was sticking my neck out a bit there). It was no good.

At the other end of the spectrum, some went at it with gusto, and I had to intervene before they had the wings off the poor old Tiger.... It takes all sorts...

Danny42C.

[rolling20]

No, the Bulldog could not be configured to carry anyone other than the 2 pilots. Going to have to disagree there Beagle....The Scottish Aviation Bulldog is a British two-seat side-by-side (with optional third seat) training aircraft designed by Beagle Aircraft as the B.125 Bulldog. That's from the RAF website on UAS's
I also remember seeing the attachments in place on the floor behind and asked the C.O. what they were for.

[BEagle]

It might well have been designed that way, as your cut and paste from Wikipedia suggests, but use of a third seat certainly wasn't ever considered in RAF use. Indeed, it would have been quite impossible to have abandon the aircraft with a parachute for anyone sitting in the rear area - and spinning characteristics would have been very...interesting with such an aft centre of mass.

In any case, before the avionic upgrade in the early 1990s, most of the area behind the seats was taken up by the ancient UHF radio inherited from Chipmunks.

However, the lashing points were useful when there was any need to carry baggage in the back.

[rolling20]

Aside of the abandonment predicament, I was assured it was feasible to carry a third person. However, all I ever saw it used for, was as you said for baggage, on a nice little jaunt to Aberporth.

[The Old Fat One]

I'm surprised to be the first to comment on air experience flying on HM Royal Kipper Fleet.

Literally flew hundreds of them - most puked, one or two so violently sorties were curtailed.

Must have ended dozens of prospective aviators dreams right there.

Globally known story of C...S K.........T operating sonics during stage 2 (Mk1 days folks) in just his shreddies and boots after being royally vommed over by a cadet.

Hey, we'll be able to do that again soon!! P8 style!! :E

[tmmorris]

It might well have been designed that way, as your cut and paste from Wikipedia suggests, but use of a third seat certainly wasn't ever considered in RAF use. Indeed, it would have been quite impossible to have abandon the aircraft with a parachute for anyone sitting in the rear area - and spinning characteristics would have been very...interesting with such an aft centre of mass.

In any case, before the avionic upgrade in the early 1990s, most of the area behind the seats was taken up by the ancient UHF radio inherited from Chipmunks.

However, the lashing points were useful when there was any need to carry baggage in the back.

I believe the civvy Beagle Pup could and often did have a third seat. Perhaps hence the confusion?

[CoffmanStarter]

R20 ...

BEagle is correct in saying that there was never a 3rd rear seat option for the RAF Bulldog. It was the Swedish variant that had the 3rd rear seat ... along with a few airframes equipped to fire rockets :eek:

More here ...

FPL 61C Bulldog - page 1 (http://www.avrosys.nu/aircraft/Mod_arme/661fpl61/661Fpl61.htm)

PS. Having seen a certain John Pr***e lash his kit down in the back of a ULAS Bulldog in the mid 70's ... It's clear the anchor points were of great utility :ok:

If my memory is correct, that early UHF lash-up BEagle mentions ... was exactly that ... the anti vibration mounts and restraining strap looked very much like an after thought mod :uhoh:

Coff.

[Danny42C]

The Old Fat One (your #37 and my #33),
...Literally flew hundreds of them - most puked, one or two so violently sorties were curtailed...
I'm not a QFI, but have always believed that aerobatics with a first-time passenger was sheer cruelty, and I would never do it (unless specifically urged to do so - in which case it was "on their own heads" - or in their laps as the case may be !)

D.

[Ken Scott]

Danny: I strongly suspect that TOFO's sorties in his 'kipper fleet' ac were non-aerobatic.....

The Nimrod (if it were indeed that kipper fleet ac & not the Shacklebomber) had other ways to make its occupants sick.

[UV]

Military Bulldogs may not have flown 3 up, but some civil ones are so cleared. We have one at North Weald that regularly flies 3 up.

[smujsmith]

As a member of 214 Entry, Kestrel flight at No1 S of TT in 69/70, I well rember being bussed to BZN, given a look around the Line, Base Hangar and all other relevant activities we might eventually be posted to, the flown around for about 3 hours in a VC10, the most beautiful aircraft I ever flew in. A few more than two seats, and, as the flight was planned crew training, I would have thought a good way of giving them a suitably "loaded" airframe. Although I was never directly employed on the "10", I'm sure I will never forget that flight.

Smudge :ok:

[The Old Fat One]

Hey Danny,

yeah, maritime not big on aeros :eek:

However, I thought flying cadets on 9 hour Nimrod tapestry ops (MK1 fishery patrol) was pretty ****ing cruel !!

[Danny42C]

Ken Scott and the Old Fat One,
I seem to have got hold of the wrong end of the stick (again !) Happens more frequently as the years clock up. Will retire, muttering, to my favourite corner in the "snug".

Danny.

[Prangster]

ATC cadets generally join to fly. Its what sets the corps apart from all our other fine youth orgs (OK we have a few Air Scouts but not that many) After 30yrs man and boy I hope I know what makes the average ATC cadet tick and the answer is flying writ large.


As a cadet I flew in 18 different types everything from Anson to Comet R2's


As a squadron officer with 3 different units keeping discipline was a doddle. Just threaten to leave their name off the next flying detail or to 'lose' their application for a gliding course.


As to the original question 'why two seaters' it is that most hope to progess to a gliding course and I haven't come across any 3 seat gliders yet!

[ShotOne]

"9hr fishery patrol pretty cruel..." Au contraire, TOFU. As a 14yr old cadet I was lucky enough to "win" just such a sortie and it was one of the high points of my life up to that point. It's easy to get blasé about flying when you do it every day, and forget how special it can be for those who don't!

[smujsmith]

Spot on ShotOne, and don't restrict that to cadets. I can tell you for fact that as a 35 year old Chief Tech in 1988, I could not believe my good fortune having passed through the Ground Engineers course, to be allowed to experience the new world of aircraft operations on Albert. I went on to clock up more than 5500 hours, despite my own suggestions in posts elsewhere, not always in a hammock. As an ex ATC cadet myself, the Chipmunk, T21 and T31 all contributed to my enthusiasm to become a member of the RAF, wherever they put me.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/e1e06498211f3c9d2f7314e50acb545e_zpsbltgwupv.jpg
Two seats ? I will take that any day. A recent once in a lifetime treat for me.

Smudge :ok:

[essexlad]

Fond memmories from my spacey days. Got plenty of flying in all sorts of different aircraft as well as completing a gliding scholarship.
Most memorable trip being a 2 hour ride in a c130k whilst on a summer camp to lyneham in 2006. For the whole 2 hours all we did was tactical landings and takeoffs, with plenty of people being sick for the whole duration of the flight. Brought to an abrupt end after a birdstrike much to sick cadets releif!

[Finningley Boy]

...in the coal hole of a Sea Vixen for the Farnborough Air Show . Bouncing around in the low level turbulence whilst we formed up, I needed the honk bag, but the rest of the trip was brilliant!

Beagle,

Were any of the perspex panels clear to see out of, or were they all blacked out?

FB:)

[BEagle]

The aircraft in which I flew was an early FAW.2 (pre-mod. 1572), so had the metal, non-frangible hatch and just a small window (about 1 ft square) in the starboard cockpit wall. Apart from that, I could see the pilots legs moving on the rudder pedals and the odd shaft of sunlight as it lit up his cockpit, but that was all.

The only in-flight duty I was required to carry out was to operate the armament safety switch so that the stores jettison relays would not be inhibited. The pilot told me that he's tell me when to select it, as the undercarriage wouldn't retract unless the switch was away from the SAFE position. In the event, he forgot to tell me, but the undercarriage retracted anyway. Perhaps he was thinking of the Hunter, whose undercarriage wouldn't retract if the MASB hadn't been connected (as a chum found out when returning to Valley from Brawdy......)